Kerala Floods - Aftermath and Save Sabarimala

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aug 2018

Postby Aditya_V » 04 Oct 2018 10:30

Well if tropical depression turns into cyclone Luban it will be nice if all the ruling party MLA's are out of the country

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aug 2018

Postby ramana » 08 Oct 2018 19:05

How are the #SaveSabarimala protests affecting post flood recovery?

I think a major social storm is brewing and BRF is burying head in mud.

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aug 2018

Postby ramana » 10 Oct 2018 00:31

UB, A lot of WhatsApp traffic on the flood situation from Irrigation engineers in Kerala.
BLUF: Mismanagement of the water release.

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aug 2018

Postby Sachin » 10 Oct 2018 12:45

ramana wrote:How are the #SaveSabarimala protests affecting post flood recovery?

Honestly, I don't hear any thing about the post flood recovery at all. Looks like the state have received big funds from other parties, and they really don't have a concrete plan to "recover" the state. The "recovery" is left to the individual Malayalis ;). Salary challenge: Kerala HC stays `no consent' letter.; which also dashed the hopes of GoKL. But looks like a forced "consent" letter was already taken from by the employees by the DDS (Drawing & disbursement officer - designations present in each Govt. department).

Also looks like the facilities at Sabari Mala & Pampa have been pretty much destroyed, and they have not even been put back to 70% of their earlier operational efficiency. Sanitation facilities, clean water etc. would be a challenge. And into this GoKL is also now trying to push in women devotees. There is some social unrest in parts of Kerala, and there is a visible disliking to the Supreme Court verdict. The CPI(M) is trying to split the Hindus among caste lines with its leaders even hiring comrades to say that they are in favour of the verdict.

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aug 2018

Postby mappunni » 10 Oct 2018 17:07

ramana wrote:How are the #SaveSabarimala protests affecting post flood recovery?

I think a major social storm is brewing and BRF is burying head in mud.


Hope these protests come to bite the Commies. The Commie CM was at Mayo Clinic in "Imperialist" USA for apparently Cancer treatment.

Hope this will be the last time the Commies will be in power in Kerala.

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aug 2018

Postby UlanBatori » 10 Oct 2018 18:55

Posting here for lack of a better place: Apparently Indonesia also is less-than-thrilled with phoren Aid,esp their personnel. Must be some good ground stories about what prompted this:

After a rare appeal for international assistance, Indonesia is now trying to limit foreign involvement in the disaster relief effort. Nugroho said there's no need for international aid other than the four priorities identified by Indonesia.
The disaster agency has circulated guidelines that say foreign aid workers can be in the field only with Indonesian partners. Groups that sent foreign personnel to the disaster zone are "advised to retrieve their personnel immediately," according to those guidelines.
International aid groups with Indonesian sister organizations say foreign personnel they want to send are being vetted by the government in a process that takes several days or longer.
In a belated response to the influx of international journalists, Nugroho said foreign reporters need to apply for a journalist visa to report on the disaster. It's likely the majority have already left.


Meanwhile, this is just horrible:
Possibly 5,000 people are buried in obliterated parts of the city and its surroundings where the force of the quake liquefied the soil and sucked houses into the earth. Kilometers (miles) of coastline were trashed by the tsunami and Nugroho said its waves were up to 11 meters (36 feet) high. A tsunami warning after the quake had predicted waves of 0.5 to 3 meters (1.5 to 10 feet).

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aug 2018

Postby UlanBatori » 10 Oct 2018 19:03

The Spin by the GoK is more impressive than that of Bilal ul PakiKrikit, but the people are somehow getting more courageous in coming forward.
The trouble with "12% above normal rain causes 1000-year flood" is that years 1001,1002, 1003 all can expect similar events. Who will give flood insurance and at what premium?
May have to go to floatable houses.

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aug 2018

Postby Dileep » 10 Oct 2018 19:17

Reporting from Ayyappa's own country :) (Disclaimer: I place myself on the extreme here again)

Flood relief is forgotten now. Literally lakhs of people are taking to the streets, protesting primarily the social justice war by the GoK.

The Supreme court removed a law that a) Prevented women during their periods (actually bleeding) from entering ANY temple in KL and b) Women of age group 10 to 50 entering the Sabarimala Temple in response to writs filed by some activists. Both had been long standing customs.

All political parties (Congi, Commie, Sanghi, everyone) welcomed the verdict initially. They missed the pulse of people totally.

The GoK, like a freshly converted EJ, went to town 'implementing' this verdict, by a) making special facilities like separate q etc b) making reserved seats in buses going to the temple. When there was big outcry and people were taking to the streets, a third decision also came. Police women will be deployed to the Temple. "Belief and Duty are different" said the DGP, referring to the reluctance of some women to go.

People, with a significant number of women, took to the streets, with no visible leaders in place. No slogans. Nothing typical to the political rallies. No leaders in jeep at the front. Aam Aurat holding banner in the front and Aam aadmi walking behind, all chanting the Ayyappa Saranam just like when making the trek. I did participate in one myself, and planning to go to the bigger one in the city coming weekend.

It was way beyond the imagination of anyone. Congress was the first to realize this, and they started supporting the movement. BJP state leadership started swaying, but the central leadership and RSS were strongly supporting the SC verdict.

Then the number of protestors shot up. So, netas had no way other than supporting it. I think the state netas of Congi and Sanghi are in support now, but central is still unsure.

As of today, the govt has rolled back a lot. But the pandora's box is open.

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aug 2018

Postby Dileep » 10 Oct 2018 19:20

Shameless plugging here. I joined teetar and started a Blog.

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aug 2018

Postby Sachin » 10 Oct 2018 19:49

Dileep wrote:"Belief and Duty are different" said the DGP, referring to the reluctance of some women to go.

One of the IPS officers who was to implement the plan of posting women police officers in Sabari Mala is a known evangelist (this is known in the police unofficial networks too). As to the DGP, I do feel he is a crypto-X'ian. Any ways the latest I hear is that no women will be deployed beyond Pamba, and that no special facilities to "encourage" women to come to Sabari Mala. The CPI(M) government by their initial statements (and total hatred to Hinduism) also lost an opportunity to get into a more negotiation mode.

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aug 2018

Postby Singha » 10 Oct 2018 21:02

hahaha...the riptides of KL society and politics are very complex for outsiders to fathom.

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aug 2018

Postby ramana » 10 Oct 2018 21:26

Dileep Should I change the thread title to reflect the churning in the state?
I recall one of your spy stories centered on Sabarimala and that's where all my gnan and IITM Hostel Servers is from.

I will follow you on Twitter.***

Also are there protestors from other states/
A big contingent is on its way from both Telugu states.

If Vijayan govt misuse force on protestors then can expect Center to intervene.
I expect an ordinance soon.

*** I am your first follower.
Remember this always!!!

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aug 2018

Postby UlanBatori » 10 Oct 2018 22:03

1000 lawsuits for women to have equal rights to enter **ALL** places of worship, is the way to go.
After that one can place social customs on who WILL enter and when, and not hide behind the Law on who CAN enter.
If someone feels strongly that they should enter, they should be allowed to, and ignored (I mean not bothered). Same as law on adultery. It may be legal and not criminal but it is not (yet) socially accepted.

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aug 2018

Postby habal » 10 Oct 2018 22:29

One of my friends on whatsapp was mentioning how in the 70s and 60s and before women used to freely visit sabarimala without any controversies. His choroottu took place in sabarimala in his mothers lap and he says it was not uncommon in those days, and also mentioned one old tamil movie featuring dance by actresses was shot on steps of sabarimala. This ban on women's entry materialized only in 90s when someone filed a case in the court and the court banned entry of women. What is the real history behind this, someone can explain.

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aug 2018

Postby UlanBatori » 11 Oct 2018 06:42

The Ayyappa Deity is worshipped in numerous temples. None of them have any ban on wimmens. Of course wimmens take a holiday from temples etc for a few dins a month. But I have not heard of any young wimmens going on the pilgrimage itself. Little children, yes. Old folks, yes. I thought that was very sensible practice given the sheer crush and chaos and absence of sanitation and basic facilities. Hopefully there was some special provision to care for the old folks and little kids.

I don't know the local custom: don't the ppl who live nearby just go and worship there like at any other temple, no special costume or penance needed? Isn't it just the 4th quarter of the year when there is this huge rush with all its special rules?
Last edited by UlanBatori on 11 Oct 2018 06:53, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aug 2018

Postby Dileep » 11 Oct 2018 06:45

Habal, it is a total fabrication. There may be a few violations of the custom, but it was very much there.

I know first hand that in my childhood in the early 70s the custom was very much there. It was well known to everyone, just like the custom that you need to bathe and wear clean clothes to go to temple. Also, there is this old book 'Sree Bhoothanatha Sarvasvam' written in late 19th/early 20th century which detail all the legends, history and customs related to the temple.

This 'choroottu' thing happen sometimes, but that would be done outside the main complex below the holy 18 steps, and women were never allowed to go up to the main complex. Violations did happen, like the infamous movie shooting in 1986 (which were actually very painful for us to hear). Also, it needs to be noted that the movie shooting and one of the 'choroottu' incident happened during commie rule.

Anyway, past violations do not justify making it a custom. For example, people sometimes steal farm produce. So, does it make sense to make stealing legal?

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aug 2018

Postby Dileep » 11 Oct 2018 07:11

Let me give some background of the Temple.

This temple is situated in the western ghats. 9°26'04.5"N 77°04'52.7"E GPS. The nearest road head (used to be. it is washed out by the floods now) at Pamba 9°24'46.7"N 77°04'07.2"E from where we trek 4 km, first uphill by 1800ft elevation and then down by 400ft. The temple is open for 5 days every month, and for 41 days in the season. The only 'locals' are the tribals living so 30 km away at Attathodu. The only humans in the area are the folk who service the temple.

The main complex is around 100ft X 100ft square built at a height of around 20 feet above the ground, originally to protect from wild animals. The 18 holy steps are built extremely steep, almost 80 degrees vertical, to prevent animals walking up. There was also a moat around this pedestal. climbing this step is the major part of the ritual, and the custom is that you need to take 41 days penance and carry the 'holy bundle of offering' on your head to do this. (The police will send you back if you do not carry it on your head. Not sure when someone will go to court for THAT)

Anyone (except the women of age) can get to the main complex through the side entrance (which is built later. Aha!!! customs do change for convenience!!) and get darshan. There will be a long q for that as well.

The penance is to take the life of a sanyasi. You should avoid all thoughts of $ex. I avoid looking at bollyboobs (on telly, print and hoardings) and watching food channel (to avoid craving for food). No problem at work, since women there are not 'objects of desire'. The custom is 41 days, but I do only 10 to 14 (Aha!! customs do change for convenience again)

Purists do not take outside food, don't wear chappals etc.

This 'holy bundle of offering' primarily contain a fully mature coconut, which is drained off the water inside and filled with ghee. This ghee is poured over the deity (abhishekam). There will be other offerings also, like rice flakes (aval/poha), rice puffs (malar), plantain, candy sugar (kalkant), honey, holy ash (bhasmam) etc.

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aug 2018

Postby Dileep » 11 Oct 2018 07:12

Ramana, thanks. I greatly value your liking my writing. This twitter thing is just to put my (disturbed) mind out.

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aug 2018

Postby UlanBatori » 11 Oct 2018 07:18

There has to be a Service Road, hain? Also for VIPs zipping in and out? Or do they carry the VIPs in a Pallakku carried by several bearers? I remember some excitement a few years ago where there was talk of a jeep, parking lot etc? There was some disaster then, and it was blamed on poor infrastructure as usual. Can't recall what it was.

In December it can get cold up in the Ghats.

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aug 2018

Postby Dileep » 11 Oct 2018 07:19

The place is a total mess. Very primitive facilities. Filth everywhere. Typical Indian pilgrimage centre, with the additional limitation of poor accessibility. The 'suffering' is part of the deal, just like the arduous trek.

These feminazis who want to 'take a selfie' with 'Ayyappa Bro' will not last a second there. Well, if they are physically fit (regularly working out at Gym) it should be fine to trek, but the dirtyness is going to make them run away.

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aug 2018

Postby Dileep » 11 Oct 2018 07:24

There is a trail, on which specially equipped tractors ply the freight. Earlier it used to be donkeys, which is banned now. There is 'dolly' service available for anyone for a few thousand rupees. There is no mechanized option for people.

The trail is being constantly modified to make it easier. It is widened, paved with concrete, steep inclines flattened and truss roofs erected. Still, you need to climb 1800ft in 2km.

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aug 2018

Postby Sachin » 11 Oct 2018 12:30

Singha wrote:the riptides of KL society and politics are very complex for outsiders to fathom.

The Kerala society even though they gloat about 100% literacy, high HDI scores, large foreign remittances etc is still very very conservative. And this cuts across all religions. Their conservativeness also some times reaches the level of boorishness (especially the way people from other states; once Tamil Nadu and now migrant labour from Northern parts of India are treated). For all social upliftment, egalitarian communist systems etc; I have my own female relatives who would wouch that an over crowded T Nagar market in Chennai,TN is much more safe (and gentlemanly) than a crowded bus in Kerala ;).

The Supreme Court verdict may be purely on "gender equality" etc., but right after the verdict the communist government tried to spin this as their victory. Comrades were trying to take credit for some social reformations in the 1880s and 1920s when their party was not even in existence. The "Sabari mala verdict" was one good chance for them to prove that some change happened when they were ruling. And they could not understand the pulse of the common Keralite out there. The protests were way beyond what the pea-brained commie leadership (mainly from Northern Kerala) could fathom. For every comrade in a family, there are 2-3 females who still abide by the Hindu customs and traditions. Now the CPI(M) is very much on the defensive as things are slowly going out of control.

ramana wrote:Also are there protestors from other states/A big contingent is on its way from both Telugu states.

Could not glean much from the Malayalam media, which also seems to be sensoring quite a lot of things. Ayyappa devotees (especially people who are rich and throw lakhs into the temple donation boxes) are much higher in number from TN,TS,AP and may be KA. The GoKL is also relying on these devotees to fill up the state treasury. A campaign in these states indicating the actual situation at Sabari Mala and asking them not to donate too much money (Ayyappah is not cash-starved any ways) will also give a solid punch to the state government. A minor campaign in Kerala itself have set the alarm bells ringing as the donation boxes in state managed temples was stuffed with request slips to Save Sabari mala instead of cash.

habal wrote:This ban on women's entry materialized only in 90s when someone filed a case in the court and the court banned entry of women.

There could have been one-off incidents in the past. And young women generally may have reached Sabari Mala, but did not go up the holy 18 steps. When these one-off incidents became common knowledge, it was an Ayyappa devotee who approached the courts demanding it to be legally banned. And then GoKL came up with a formal law which forbade women within an age group to enter the shrine.

My first Sabari Mala pilgrimage was when I was around 12 years old. Even then it was clearly known that women of certain age group will not go to Sabari Mala (irrespective of whether a law was in place at that time or not). To be frank, it was also the rank commercialisation of this pilgrimage which now reached a level of "all and sundry" demanding entry rights and right to do what ever they please. My father had made this pilgrimage in early 1960s. And at that time they really had to trek up the hills, pretty much carried their own packed food etc. The temple itself was in very remote location (and serene), with minimal staff. Forest watchers and guards were the only "law enforcement" people easily available.

UlanBatori wrote:There has to be a Service Road, hain? Also for VIPs zipping in and out? Or do they carry the VIPs in a Pallakku carried by several bearers?

There is a kind of service road generally known as "Chandranandan Road". When I made my first visit it was a slushy mud road, but when I went there three years back it was a concrete road mainly used by tractors which haul up the essential stuff to the temple. But even here, I don't think VIP vehicles are allowed.

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aug 2018

Postby uddu » 11 Oct 2018 16:17

What's surprising is that everyone forgot Malikapurathamma? Everyone got rights and can visit Ayyappa while she is not allowed to visit him? That's not fair. If everyone else can, then she got the first right to visit him and be with him.

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aug 2018

Postby arshyam » 11 Oct 2018 17:01

I can also confirm the tradition on women not going to sabarimala is older than the nineties. In the late eighties, my relatives did the trek, full 41 days, etc, and that's when I became familiar with these restrictions.

No women from TN will also go to the temple now, ban or no ban. In fact, the ones in my circle are pretty angry about this judgment.

Of course, unrelated persons like the petitioners might go to prove a point, but that's pretty much it.

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aug 2018

Postby Sachin » 11 Oct 2018 20:50

This thread is now way off-topic, but would just chip in a few thoughts.
‘Sabarimala fight not about periods, it’s about dignity’: Petitioner Bhakti Pasrija
NCW chairperson slams women’s protest over Sabarimala.
“I can’t understand why these women are staging protest over Sabarimala. Only those who wish can visit the shrine. Nobody is forcing them that they should go to the temple. Those who are against the verdict and those who oppose the verdict have equal rights,” she pointed out.

Let me be brutally honest; this whole case was filed by women who are in no way connected to Sabari Mala or Ayyappa devotees. Sabari Mala Ayyappa is predominantly a Hindu god with worshippers being South Indians. It is only very recently that devotees from MH etc. started coming in; mainly because of the Non-resident Keralites who builds Ayyappa temples where ever they are in large numbers. And along with that comes the problem of people who have no clue on how Kerala temples and its rituals getting involved, to "prove a point".

Bhakti Pasrija has thoughts about dignity, while Kerala women are now actually saying that is not the "dignity" they want. The National Women's Commission chair person again from Northern India, finds it surprising that women in Kerala are actually opposing the "freedom" given to them. This temple has lots of uniqueness to it. Every Ayyappa devotee tries to attain the same godliness of the God he is going to worship. Even the police man who stands their for crowd control, is considered to be an Ayyappa (they follow the same traditions of the devotees). This is the only temple which is truely "secular". Men from any religion can go there. Looks like the people who talk about all this "equality & dignity" wants to make every temple a show piece; like the Akshardham temple at New Delhi or ISKON temple at Bengaluru etc. A place to just flaunt the wealth, and where even cakes (or any thing which a modern devotee (?) wants) is available for a price. Temples in Kerala generally have a much more "faith based" approach and is not like the typical tourist temples seen else where.

arshyam wrote:Of course, unrelated persons like the petitioners might go to prove a point, but that's pretty much it.

That is the catch here. This is totally unrelated people messing up a perfectly working system, which was not a major concern for any one in the country. Perhaps these people want to make show piece temples, where money can buy any thing and every one can do what they want. I find it strange that even Hindu organisations like RSS could not differentiate the belief systems in various parts of India. A Nagpur model Hinduism may not fit the bill every where.

Mean while let us see how this case goes...
Kerala Muslim women forum to move SC seeking right to offer prayers in mosques. :roll:

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aug 2018

Postby jpremnath » 11 Oct 2018 21:13

We have gone way off topic.. Maybe it is better to start a separate thread on Sabarimala judgement ?..

On the post flood management by commies, the donations have crossed 1600 crores, but the dispersement to those affected has been patchy to say the best. There are still plenty who haven't reCived the initial 10,000 rs. It is making all the people who had thought of making donations think twice

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aug 2018

Postby chetak » 11 Oct 2018 21:41

jpremnath wrote:We have gone way off topic.. Maybe it is better to start a separate thread on Sabarimala judgement ?..

On the post flood management by commies, the donations have crossed 1600 crores, but the dispersement to those affected has been patchy to say the best. There are still plenty who haven't reCived the initial 10,000 rs. It is making all the people who had thought of making donations think twice


They needed funds for 2019 and the commies cleverly pitched it so that the appeal became a secular enterprise.

the commies would have already worked out the ways and means to surreptitiously reroute the "donations" for their own benefit.

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aug 2018

Postby chetak » 11 Oct 2018 22:22

twitter


Kerala govt. used distress relief fund to repay the loan of CPM MLA.

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Dear NRI's when @CPIMKerala Ministers visit you in coming days please check with them whether is it the duty of public to fund CPM MLA's loan repayments?

Image
Image

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aug 2018

Postby UlanBatori » 12 Oct 2018 01:57

Just to roll the odd grenade into a fine agitation:

IIRC, "Sabari" was a tribal bibi who used to sweep the grounds of the house readied for Sri Rama, and a faithful devotee of Sri Rama, meditating anticipating His arrival. Super example of a true devotee. Kept the place spick and span as opposed to the trash dump that recent desis have reduced this holy and historic place to.

She is, per official Adhyatma Ramayanam of Thunjath Ezhuttassan, the one who gave Him the critical gyan on who exactly abducted Sita Bibi and what direction he flew off in. I think someone else directed Him to go ask Sabari Bibi what had happened. Very authoritative scholar, among other things.

The Pampa river there is per Malloo Ramayana, the place near whose banks constituted the Vanara Sena's domain (Emperor Sugriva's Empire).

Then and now. :mrgreen:

Which is why I said that tribal people in the neighborhood should have access at all times and as many times a year as they please, to the shrine built on the hill named after Sabari. No one else has any rights or bijnej there until and unless THEY say so.

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aug 2018

Postby mappunni » 12 Oct 2018 02:03

Chetakji,
The Commie scum was at one such Onam celebration organized by a Hindu temple in Dallas area and had the audacity to tell the audience to ask their relatives to keep voting for the Commies in Kerala.

Even recently the CM PinaNari Choriyan was at Mayo Clinic Rochester MN for cancer treatment. This after denouncing the US as fascist and imperialist. The sad part is I have met a few of the children of these commies who have made the Imperialist US their home and happy to come to the temple every Sunday to teach them about Hinduism and Keralan way. :rotfl:

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aug 2018

Postby ramana » 12 Oct 2018 04:13

Premnath lets keep it here.
Please suggest a proper thread title as we follow the great churning.
Kerala Chaos or Churn?

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aug 2018

Postby arshyam » 12 Oct 2018 06:51

ramana wrote:Also are there protestors from other states/

Protests staged against SC verdict on Sabarimala - The Hindu, Coimbatore

Ayyappa devotees stage stir against Supreme Court verdict - The Hindu, Chennai (see the # of women in the pic)

Image

Looks like there is more coming up.
The protest march is a precursor for another programme where women devotees would be taking an ‘oath’ against entering the Sabarimala temple in Kerala on October 12, the organisers said. T. Hemalatha, a participant at the protest march, said the procession was held to show solidarity to the vow taken by the women in Kerala to not enter the Sabarimala temple, which has the custom of not allowing young women to enter the temple premises in order to maintain the sanctity of Lord Ayyappa.

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aug 2018

Postby Dileep » 12 Oct 2018 09:40

Latest update is, that the 'spiritual authorities' of the temple threaten to shut the temple down if women of age visits there.

The logic is, if there is any 'break in tradition' a corrective measure called 'punyaha' need to be done before any other ritual can be done. If women show up every day, the temple can't function.

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aug 2018

Postby Sachin » 12 Oct 2018 12:33

May be we should rename this thread to "Kerala Floods - its aftermath and Sabari mala" ;). The main pilgrimage season is about to start, and so there seems to be some major event happening every day.

One thing the communist government is now clearly on the defensive. The euphoria of them launching another grand "social reformation" movement has now changed to outright down-hill sking. There is an active communist (and from other "secular" groups and religions) campaign on social media trying to split the Hindu community on caste lines, by focusing on earlier discriminatory practises etc.


Dileep wrote:Latest update is, that the 'spiritual authorities' of the temple threaten to shut the temple down if women of age visits there.

I read about this plan in an online portal. This is a do-able plan, provided the Hindu players in this sad game have the guts to actually "walk the full mile". The communists have already started a campaign to say that all the current customs are just part of Brahminical hegemony (and thus meaningless). Countering this would require some tact and careful planning. "Threats" may not be work, but a genuine plea to the devotees highlighting why the temple had to be closed down may work. The "Pandalam Royal Family" is still considered to be Lord Ayyappa's family, with some mandatory articles for worship still coming in from their household.

The community of the "chief priest" (Thantri); the Kerala Brahmins are the best turn-coats now available for the use of the communists. Many among this community to prove their communist/socialist mind set, will be willing to speak against the "chief priest" and the religious practises at Sabari Mala. The communists in the worst case scenario can try the Chinese/Russian trick of identifying "priests" with a communist mindset from this community and kind of oust the present Thantri family. For all of these people; this is also a matter of some big money (which looks like is the ultimate God).

When such activities are planned and for it to succeed a message has to go out; "The Ayyappa of Sabarimala, has seized to exist in the old awatar. The idol seen there today has lost its sanctity/chaithanya and is now a piece of stone.". Perhaps the Pandalam Royal Family and the head priest would have to "reinstall" the diety at another place, which would also make Sabari Mala pilgrimage a redundant excercise.

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aug 2018

Postby Kanson » 12 Oct 2018 17:18

UlanBatori wrote:The Ayyappa Deity is worshipped in numerous temples. None of them have any ban on wimmens... .....


habal wrote:One of my friends on whatsapp was mentioning how in the 70s and 60s and before women used to freely visit sabarimala without any controversies. His choroottu took place in sabarimala in his mothers lap and he says it was not uncommon in those days, and also mentioned one old tamil movie featuring dance by actresses was shot on steps of sabarimala. This ban on women's entry materialized only in 90s when someone filed a case in the court and the court banned entry of women. What is the real history behind this, someone can explain


Sabrimala Ayyyappan also presides as Sastha in Sabarimala. During the days leading upto Makara Jothi, HE assumes special powers. Not only the temple complex, surrounding hills & regions assumes certain mystical power. The whole process of whorship is an occult parctise or based on Tantra as we call it in local toungue. Even the priest here who does poojas is known as Tantri (tHan-thRee). He is not known as poojari as in other temples.

Wherever other local Ayyappa temples around are concerned it came into existence bcoz of local people's wish. But in Sabarimala, Ayyappan is worshipped in the way HE wanted, i.e.as per HIS wish + tantric worship needs certain atmosphere. It cannot be provided in every other Ayyappan temple. So we cannot use that logic of women going to other Ayyappan temple as basis for women entry into Sabarimala Ayyappan temple.

As Dileep mentioned, dec jan is the important period. Men practising austerity for 40 days before visiting is only for this period i believe. [Pls correct me if iam not right] Rest of the months when temple is open, devotees do not need the same austerity practised to see Ayappan. Thats why during the other months they dont use the 18 steps. Also as i heard, during other months Ayyappan is not worshipped in the same way(tantric pooja is not the same).
As i heard, these days women go. Less restriction. + Women generally go to temple when they are not mensurating. Woman don't mensurate for few months after delivery. So this "choroottu" could have happened during those days when Ayyappan was not worshipped in such significant manner as in dec jan period. + the rules were not strict in non season days. This culture of women of age not visiting the temple even during non season days is more as a respect for what HE is (a brahmachari) & also seen as the extension of the way he is worshipped in dec jan months, as i heard.

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aug 2018

Postby jpremnath » 12 Oct 2018 17:54

ramana wrote:Premnath lets keep it here.
Please suggest a proper thread title as we follow the great churning.
Kerala Chaos or Churn?


I think what Sachin suggested might be a good idea...Everytime i see a new post in the thread, i click thinking it is something related to floods, only to see the Sabarimala melee..

My two cents on the issue, regardless of how low I consider the commies, there is nothing much the state govt can do in this matter. The judgement just cancelled the previous order banning entry of women on grounds of being 'unconstitutional'...No ordinance from state govt can cover it now, only a constitutional amendment or some sort of ordinance at centre can do something about it...I doubt the central BJP or RSS leadership will go for it...Because they were always for admitting women of all ages...Even the local Bjp units initially welcomed the judgement only to see groundswell of resentment and protests...They quickly did a U turn and took leadership of the protests and skillfully turned it against the commies.

The commies are shell shocked and don't have a clue ..They are doing their best to explain the situation to the public, but the legal fine points are too complex for them to understand...The BJP is making hay while the sun shines and I won't blame them for that. It has been a commie way of blaming the centre for all ills while hiding behind such loopholes. And karma has hit back..

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aug 2018

Postby Sachin » 12 Oct 2018 19:26

Kanson wrote:Sabrimala Ayyyappan also presides as Sastha in Sabarimala. During the days leading upto Makara Jothi, HE assumes special powers. Not only the temple complex, surrounding hills & regions assumes certain mystical power. The whole process of whorship is an occult parctise or based on Tantra as we call it in local toungue. Even the priest here who does poojas is known as Tantri (tHan-thRee). He is not known as poojari as in other temples.

To be frank, I don't know if the people involved here (GoKL, Devaswom Board, the North Indian lady petitioners and hizzhoners) were even aware of how the worship is done at Sabari Mala. I often say about the magnificent Akshardham temples seen in Northern India, only to add that that is NOT how temples in Kerala are considered as places of worship.

Rest of the months when temple is open, devotees do not need the same austerity practised to see Ayappan. Thats why during the other months they dont use the 18 steps

This again was a practise which started quite late. Every Malayalam calendar month the temple opens for 4-5 days and that is only for the basic poojas. Many Ayyappa devotees now use these days to make their annual pilgrimage as it is less crowded. And no one needs to take the 41 days vruth. But here again because of such relaxations people don't just go there in a way they please. Non-veg food, alchohol etc. is not taken when they come in to pray.

jpremnath wrote:The judgement just cancelled the previous order banning entry of women on grounds of being 'unconstitutional'...No ordinance from state govt can cover it now, only a constitutional amendment or some sort of ordinance at centre can do something about it.

When Supreme Court annulled the entrance exams conducted by three medical colleges in Kerala (which charged very high amounts as fees), GoKL had tried the "Ordinance" route to byepass it. And they miserably failed. The GoKL (the same communist ministry of today) had tried to justify the ordinance saying that "poor students' future had to be saved". These "poor students" were all kids of rich NRIs who were filling to pay Rs. 50 lakh and above to make them Daaktaars (MBBS) :roll:. And off course to keep the minority community owning the college happy. What people are complaining is that even the enthusiasm shown to have capitation fee charging colleges have their way, is not shown when it comes to understanding the religious sentiments of Hindus.

The commies are shell shocked and don't have a clue ..They are doing their best to explain the situation to the public, but the legal fine points are too complex for them to understand.

The commies have some clues; that is to try split the Hindu community again on caste lines. From what I see in social media, there is a big attempt to get this breaking up done. So far they have not made much progress, but there are some specific campaigns to be rolled out next week in which even the state Chief Minister would try to convince the devotees. The pro-Sabari Mala campaign can only survive if they go at the current momentum at least for a few days beyond Oct 18th, when the temple is to be opened for the poojas. And from what I read in the news papers, even basic facilities at Sabari Mala and Pampa have been destroyed and not even put back to 40% of its normal efficiency. Even men devotees would find the pilgrimage a tougher one this time.

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aug 2018

Postby chetak » 12 Oct 2018 20:08

Footage from Communist Party event in Kerala in support of woman entry to Sannidhanam. Even the ladies present in the event admit that they don't support woman entry to Sannidhanam. Then what's left parties in Kerala behind? I smell a conspiracy from lefts in this
#SaveSabarimala


https://twitter.com/chaithanyanooji/status/1049942005592285184

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aug 2018

Postby UlanBatori » 13 Oct 2018 01:12

Hope the Devotees have some cohesion of purpose and plans beyond just jumping up and down for a few days. Looking up this thread, you can see that custom has certainly evolved over the centuries, and in very recent years the Pilgrimage Tourism bijnej has caused extreme stress at all major Kerala temples. This is a fact. It is a very sad commentary on the 80%-majority that this deterioration is allowed to happen. IMO this is the massive opportunity to set things right: the confluence of the floods and the SC verdict. Wake-up call.

I am reminded of the reaction of a (Malloo of my acquaintance, typical of many) when faced with the facts of Indian law regarding property/ inheritance, vs. tribal superstitions.
All that Indian Law doesn't apply here!

That is really not an approach with a lot of promise. The SC was merely deciding what was the correct interpretation of the Constitution. All said and done, it is a public place that receives public funds, and is probably situated on public land. They cannot say that people are denied admission simply because of age or gender. If the claim is that "it is too hard for wimmen", well.... I am sure the SC can dictate that it be made less stressful with better facilities and orderly processes.

People used to walk to Kasi and Ramesvaram in the old days. They take trains/buses or SUVs now, and the buses are airconditioned. So things DO change, hain?

So the Devotees have to seek smarter ways to decide what is truly important, and try to win those. How exactly is their right to worship, hurt? The claim that Lord Ayyappa will be hurt, is not sustainable in court: who exactly claims to speak for Him? The claim that "this is the way we have been doing things onlee" is not sustainable. Didn't Swami Vivekananda call Keralam a "Bhranthalayam" precisely because of "traditional ways"? I am sure that every argument seen above in this thread was made with equally strong feelings then too. I have heard of a Gandhian freedom fighter who stood picketing the front of some office or other, as part of the demand to let people of all castes into temples. The "Holy Devotees" collected a bucket of poo, went up to the window above him and poured it on him. I am sure to great applause by other "Holy Devotees". No sympathy even at home: legend was that his kind grand-brats would go up to him and hold their noses before scampering away.

Yet today (I hope!) none of those arguing here would argue to go back to the customs of those time, where admission to temples was restricted to people based on birth?

I am not claiming to know The Right Answer, just pointing out that the SC decision was probably the only one possible for the SC to take, given that the case came up before them. IMO it was a no-brainer, notwithstanding all the heights of oratory that the defendants achieved.

Bringing in the bleeding etc, as an example, is a "red herring" introduced to raise hackles. Most temples demand a "Punyaham" (purification ceremony, costs a good deal of money) if there is any blood or other body fluids other than sweat emitted to the floor inside the inner part of the temple.

This is one of the few places in India where spitting is not approved. My Evil 6th coujin is still reminded by unkind relatives that when he was given the "teertham" at a temple during his "choroonu" or whatever, he assumed that he was to wash his mouth with that, so he did so and spat it out. :oops: If an adult did that it might be a big issue.

Gender of person bleeding is not the issue. Now the issue is that 41 days is longer than 30 days. Brilliant! Convincing argument! Or is it?

What exactly is wrong with a woman observing strict penance through 41 days? Have there not been women Rsis throughout the ages (at least 400+ per my knowledge during Vedic times)? How did they meditate long enough to be considered Tenured Rsinis, complete with Divya dristhi and the power to issue fatwas, hain? OK, they don't go inside a temple on those days, but there is nothing to say that they are not fasting/ avoiding eating pakistanis etc.

These advances should have been made ages ago BY yindoo society, and the facilities around the place improved to the level that showed the reverence in which it is held. Keeping the surroundings worse than an pigsty and claiming that this is to maintain the ambience of herrowism, is a garbage argument. I claim that Shri A. showed what He thought of that, by washing and scraping the surroundings. Long overdue and His patience has been, well, Divine.

The Rsi Sabari Bibi would have approved of the cleansing.

If the Herrowic Devotees want to up the ante they can set up special penances etc that are voluntary. It is really up to Shri A, not the Devaswom Board or anyone else, to decide what constitutes adequate worship, hain? As long as all worshippers conduct themselves with proper decorum and respect and consideration for other worshippers?

One great objection of the Holy Devotees is that seeing wimmens around might break the Purity of their Penance by exciting their (never mind). I'd say that is a bit tough, it indicates a very juvenile level of maturyti, and an inadequate level of focus on worship if the mere sight of a wimmens in the vicinity will break their concentration*.

Are they sure that through their 41 dins of penance they don't see any wimmens? This, from the SC's pov, is surely not a sufficient reason to deny the basic right of worship to anyone.

One way out for those who feel that this is a big problem, would be to shut themselves in a place where they are not likely to see any women at all, for 41 days. When they go to worship at temples, put bags over their heads with ear-plugs and nose-clamps so that they cannot see, hear or smell women. For those who do these, there could be a special Darshan arranged, where they are allowed to do the Darshan with viewing tubes placed in front of their head-bags, allowing them to see only the Inner Sanctum.

If they have no trouble during the 41 days, then they have no trouble with women being present at the temple either.

********************
The aspect that no one is discussing here, is the origin of the quasi-military form of the pilgrimage, which is the Macho Pride part. Everyone is worried about opening that can of commies. Because.... there is at least one version that says the "pilgrimage" commemorates a campaign to attack, loot and destroy a Buddhist place of worship. I have seen a set of broken small figurines at the temple at u-no-where, next to the Ayyappan shrine, that we were instructed to Not Look At, because looking would bring evil. The (whispered) explanation was that those were former Buddhist vigrahas.

They have now disappeared.

Just saying what I have heard. I think there is some part of this history that is today suppressed/ignored on the theory that if ignored it will go away.

Then again, I have never heard of Buddhist shrines/communities anywhere else in Mallostan or TN, so I don't know where all that came from.

Summary: Yindoos need to wake up.

* Reminds me of the irreverent *ope Selection Process that we won't go into here because it will certainly and needlessly offend people.

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aftermath and Save Sabarimala

Postby Dileep » 13 Oct 2018 07:59

Kanson's post have several factual inaccuracies.

Tantric worship is the generic name for the Temple centric worship system in Bharatham. It is distinct from the 'Vedic' system. A lot of philosophies and 'gods' are freely integrated into what we call 'hinduism' today. It was Bhagavan Sree Sankaran (the one born at Kalady near my place and walked all over the nation centuries ago) who made the integration formal and established the coexistence of both.

EVERY Temple here in KL is worshiped according to the Thantric texts (called 'aagama' which means 'tradition'. Vasishta, Bharadwaja and others have 'aagama' named after them. EVERY Temple have a designated 'Thantri', who installs the Deity and serves as the 'spiritual father' of the Deity. There are periodic rituals to be performed by the Thantri.

Position of Thantri is hereditary. If I want to create a temple today, I need to find a qualified Thantri and get it done. Thereafter, the position becomes the hereditary right for that family. (All Thantri families except one are brahmins. One is Ezhava). My father was involved in this process for a small temple in my village.

Thazhamon is one of the most known families, who has the 'Thantram right' for Sabarimala. They are Thantri to a number of temples. Most of the Ayyappa temples have them as the Thantri.

Sabarimala is special in that a lot of the rituals require direct involvement of the Thantri. The reason being, the temple used to be open only three times a year, so the thantri rituals were conducted then. Other temples that open every day don't need Thantri every day.

Other than that, the worship at Sabarimala is typical to a Kerala temple.

Facts on the penance and the 18 steps:

1. 41 day penance and the holy bundle is REQUIRED to climb the 18 steps any time, whether it is the 'season' or the '1-5 of month'. The bundle rule is enforced. Penance can't be checked anyway. People reduced this down to two weeks now.
2. Women going to sabarimala was a VIOLATION of the custom. They climbing up into the main complex is considered 'desecration' which needed 'punyaham'. It had been the rule for long.

I dug up my copy of 'Sree Bhuthanatha Sarvasvam' published in 1948 and checked. It clearly mentions that women between 10-50 are not allowed, but there are violations even then. The 1991 law gave legal credentials to the custom. If past violations are reason for present validation, let us make 'groping' legal. Evidence is coming out now that groping was rampantly happening in the past, hainjee?

The pilgrimage is NOT inspired or re-enactment of any attack. It is the reminiscent of people actually visiting the human named Manikandan who turned ascetic and took abode at an old temple in the jungle he frequented during his soldiering days for securing the trade route. The old temple could have been Buddhist, but most probably it was abandoned, or even been ransacked by the highway robbers whom Manikandan quashed.

For those who (is $exually active) say taking the penance is easy, try complete abstinence for 30 days and see how your mind craves for 'it'. I don't know about you, but I get very uncomfortable myself.It is difficult.


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