Kerala Floods - Aftermath and Save Sabarimala

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aftermath and Save Sabarimala

Postby ramana » 23 Oct 2018 22:14

hnair wrote: Sabarimala is a rare instance where the inferiors stood up and fought.....

Exactly its the subalterns who defied the SC verdict peacefully* and the Justices Mishra and Chandrachud arguments reeks of Orientalism by imposing secular judgment on the blind heathens.
In fact on Twitter I pointed out the irony that Orientalism was being imposed on the subaltern temple using arguments straight out of Western Colonial narrative.

* Vijayan was made aware if there was police firing he is toast. Peaceful protest by the Ayappa Swamis defanged Fascits state poser in Kerala. I call it Fascist State power if one looks at how Rahul Esawar was bundled under a carpet in a tractor trailer and taken to a midnight court and confined to judicial remand with out any legal representation. Straight out of King Louis XVI and Bastille. What happened to Habeas Corpus? Buried under judicial over reach.

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aftermath and Save Sabarimala

Postby Sachin » 23 Oct 2018 22:22

chetak wrote:A very simple "we have to wait and see" would have been far more diplomatic and also eminently sensible.

This is what every sensible person would do. When I write this, Kerala CM have made some really nasty remarks on the chief priest and his clan. His earlier target was the Pandalam Royal Family. My sincere hope is that both these parties do not respond "in the same manner" and just do their religious duties, and see what legal options are available. Leave the "crass talks" to the more suitable politicians available in dozens in Kerala.

The present CM of Kerala have got "advisors" for pretty much every department he handles. He has got an ex-DGP to "advice" him on police matters. There is also a "media advisor", who kind of of a personal valet for the CM as well. I don't have the exact numbers but Kerala CM may have more advisors than the ministers he has in the cabinet. The large number of advisors also show that the CM does not have a fair grip on any department, and he also does not have faith in the ministers chosen by him. His "dictatorial tendencies" could be easily exploited by the battalion of advisors he has.

Kerala has not seen a BJP ministry, so people naturally would have to compare the current government with the previous Congress party led governments. When I visited my home town; I did meet a few people. Again sample size was limited, but it did cut across the political spectrum. But every one said that the Sabari Mala verdict would have been smoothly handled by a K.Karunakaran or Ooman Chandy. A simple statement - "We welcome the verdict, but would like to review it in detail" was all that was required. The first communist party led ministry was actually dismissed by the Central Govt. (with Nehru as PM), and it was because of poor management of "law & order" issues. The Chief Minister - EMS Namboodirippad- was all good in communist ideology, but totally clueless on dealing with the police department. The police officers just ignored him. The communists did try to change the situation by appointing Justice Krishna Iyer as the Home Minister, but by then things had already gone south.

The timing of the case is also very fortuitous for some parties of the BIF variety and it looks like the verdict was anticipated in some quarters even before the so called judgement. It looks like a setup.

Yes, there were some comments for the judiciary during the trial which gave a feeling that they had already made up their minds. The Congress party which has good presence in Kerala have got a golden opportunity to take a up a cause which would help the devotees. And to be frank, I am also a bit worried if the BJP does NOT want a quick solution to this sad problem, and is hoping to make this another "RJB" style case. With the present skill sets BJP has in Kerala, it is only going to cause more long term miseries to the common Ayyappa devotee out there.

UlanBatori wrote:BUT.. strategy-wise, I still maintain that Savtri/ex-Rehana should be welcomed as a NEW HINDU BHAKTA, and given a schedule of temples to visit,

Sir, folks like Rehana Fathima would say that she is a Muslim today, a Hindu tomorrow and Sikh the day after. She is like an "anarchist", and so changing tunes is not a problem for her. So yes strategically we can ask her to go to temples, but "tactically" there are easier and quicker measures to be taken.

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aftermath and Save Sabarimala

Postby Sachin » 23 Oct 2018 22:32

ramana wrote: At same time it has provided intelligence reports to the State Govt and the Governor (A former Chief justice of Supreme Court who knows the law and is above all representative of the President of India).

The intelligence inputs have been pretty much accurate, and I guess IB did an excellent job here. They pretty much knew who were the trouble makers to be expected. And again the Governor asking the DGP (who was vacationing at Munnar - a hill station), also could have been a way to show the displeasure coming from the central government (for L&O issues).

Having said all this, State BJP has to expand its presence and is doing that. I don't understand despite many years on this Forum people can thing strategically and demand useless statements.

The state level BJP leadership had to rise upto the occassion. As a PM Modi may not be able to make any statement against or for the verdict. But the state BJP unit does not have any such problems. To be frank I am expecting them to come up with excuses like "Elect us from Kerala in Lok Sabha elections in 2019, and then we will ensure that BJP government will bring a rule to free temples" ;).

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aftermath and Save Sabarimala

Postby ramana » 23 Oct 2018 22:46

Kaccha was also involved.

The state level BJP won't come up with excuses.
They are at the front-line of the CPM targeted killings via PFI goondas.
Please give them some leeway for their suffering.

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aftermath and Save Sabarimala

Postby ShyamSP » 23 Oct 2018 22:54

Sachin wrote:
ramana wrote: At same time it has provided intelligence reports to the State Govt and the Governor (A former Chief justice of Supreme Court who knows the law and is above all representative of the President of India).

The intelligence inputs have been pretty much accurate, and I guess IB did an excellent job here. They pretty much knew who were the trouble makers to be expected. And again the Governor asking the DGP (who was vacationing at Munnar - a hill station), also could have been a way to show the displeasure coming from the central government (for L&O issues).

Having said all this, State BJP has to expand its presence and is doing that. I don't understand despite many years on this Forum people can thing strategically and demand useless statements.

The state level BJP leadership had to rise upto the occassion. As a PM Modi may not be able to make any statement against or for the verdict. But the state BJP unit does not have any such problems. To be frank I am expecting them to come up with excuses like "Elect us from Kerala in Lok Sabha elections in 2019, and then we will ensure that BJP government will bring a rule to free temples" ;).


He can within the scope of rights and law. Supreme court overrode one right for another right to give verdict and also broke the legislative laws. Legislative/executive being same and higher authority than Judiciary, they can highlight the broken laws and rights and apparent contradictions in the verdict. Competent lawyers can keep this verdict in abeyance in courts for long time.

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aftermath and Save Sabarimala

Postby ShyamSP » 23 Oct 2018 23:15

They effected Kali moments until Shiva falls on her feet. Eventually, Tripura train will come to Kerala.

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aftermath and Save Sabarimala

Postby ramana » 24 Oct 2018 05:38

As extending judicial over reach Supreme Court banned firecrackers on Deepvalli expect between 8:00 -10:00 pm. They don't understand in deep South Naraka Chaturdasi is celebrated in the early morning on previous day. And all should use green firecrackers to be defined by SC.
And as bonus allowed firecrackers on Christmas and New Years from 11:59 AM.

I guess did not think of Id Ul Fitr which comes after Deepavalli.

And the Central Pollution Control Board (CPCB) and Environment Minster Harshvardhan are demanding noise free Deepvalli.
The CPCB lawyer was hoping a complete ban would be issued and is disappointed that only partial ban was issued.

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aftermath and Save Sabarimala

Postby SSridhar » 24 Oct 2018 07:08

chetak wrote:I have a feeling that this so called "ex communication" will be quietly annulled as time goes by.

There will be a lot of hot heads in the community who would be quite impressed by her actions against the majority and will intercede on her behalf.

Rehana case is 'taqiya' all right, but she won't be taken back into Ummah. They do not want a person who revolts against Islam in their faith. Sabari Mala has come as a good excuse. In this big churn, the Rehana expulsion wouldn't cause a ripple is the calculation of the Jama'ath.

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aftermath and Save Sabarimala

Postby Dileep » 24 Oct 2018 07:29

hnair wrote: Like those dumb frogs that usually get boiled alive in the slow boil mode, but this time, jumped out and pissed the burner out.....

Brilliant!! Where is the like button?

I had a realization yesterday. The 'black horse' here is the Ezhava community. The SM issue is being spun as a 'Savarna' v's 'Avarna' issue now, so that Ezhava community will stay against it. They have their own temples and should be thinking "why not Paravoor Rajesh Thantri replace Thazhamon". Habal's statement "Regarding protests and LAKHS involved I am yet to be convinced it is a protest beyond nair, vishwakarma, kaniyan, thattan, and some other aristocratic communities." is weighted in this direction. See which community is absent in the list. The leaders of the community has already placed themselves behind the 'progressive' side.

Right now, the push is strongly against the Pandalam royals and Thantri, because the proponents know that their opposition is pretty much insurmountable.

I don't know how reliable this is, but there was a news article about a proposal to build a temple in TN, right across the boarder, and move the deity there. If Thazhamn is discredited, they can actually "Extract" the Deity and install somewhere else. I am assuming that it will not be "stealing" if they do. It would be very interesting to watch.

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aftermath and Save Sabarimala

Postby arshyam » 24 Oct 2018 07:36

ramana wrote:As extending judicial over reach Supreme Court banned firecrackers on Deepvalli expect between 8:00 -10:00 pm. They don't understand in deep South Naraka Chaturdasi is celebrated in the early morning on previous day. And all should use green firecrackers to be defined by SC.
That was my first thought as well - the evening is not that significant in the south, whereas the early morning is. Who is the SC to tell me otherwise?

So does this mean I am free to burst crackers anytime on Naraka Chaturdasi, since that is not technically Diwali as defined in the north? If so, it's a good loophole. We anyway call it Deepavali and not Diwali. Let SC ban Diwali as much as it wants, we'll all celebrate Deepavali.

ramana wrote:And as bonus allowed firecrackers on Christmas and New Years from 11:59 AM.
Without fail, of course. Don't I have a right to sleep on Dec 24 and 31? True to Manmohan's dictum about us having the last right to our country's resources.

ramana wrote:And the Central Pollution Control Board (CPCB) and Environment Minster Harshvardhan are demanding noise free Deepvalli.
The CPCB lawyer was hoping a complete ban would be issued and is disappointed that only partial ban was issued.
Typical. These buggers are the biggest dangers to Hindu society - buying lock stock and barrel into the "Deepavali is polluting Delhi" without solving the (by now) well accepted root cause of crop burning and vehicular pollution.

Even if Delhi gets smogged up at Deepavali*, why infringe on my right to practice my festival in my traditional way 2000+ km away? I think we need a rule that no central govt minister should be from Delhi - this Delhi centric-ness is damaging the country.

*Sorry, but this repeated blaming Deepavali for the city's woes is what has got us into this mess, and now the rest of the country is paying the price for it.

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aftermath and Save Sabarimala

Postby Dileep » 24 Oct 2018 07:50

The Temple opens for a day on 6th for the "Sree Chitra Attathirunal". This is the birthday of the last Travancore king. This is no longer relevant. The kingdom is gone in 1956, the title of king gone in 1971 and the king himself is dead in 1991.

So, why not the Pandalam Royals decide to keep the Temple closed, or at least closed for public darshan. This will be a litmus test about "who decides the rituals" question.

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aftermath and Save Sabarimala

Postby Dileep » 24 Oct 2018 07:55

How will one enforce the timing? That is ridiculous. The only thing possible is this "green" or "safe ans sane" (this is a USA term for fireworks with less sound etc) rules that can be enforced upon the manufacturers. The usage can not be controlled.

And what about Vishu? That is the cracker festival for us Midland Malloos. Traditionally, we burst crackers at 3-4 am, right after seeing the "Vishukkani".

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aftermath and Save Sabarimala

Postby chandrasekaran » 24 Oct 2018 08:39

The dates for the actual celebration of Deepavali varies from place to place and the times too are different. In TamilNadu many burst crackers before sunrise. Its astounding to even think that the learned judges didn't bother to understand these regional variance. Of course, I am still wondering, under which law can SC arrive at a certain time. Sadly, judgement's like these only invite open defiance.

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aftermath and Save Sabarimala

Postby Prasad » 24 Oct 2018 10:06

Sachin
To be frank I am expecting them to come up with excuses like "Elect us from Kerala in Lok Sabha elections in 2019, and then we will ensure that BJP government will bring a rule to free temples" ;).


They promised that for the KA elections too. HDK promptly took over Gokarna temple in Sept. Without legislative backing we can all keep doing saami sharanam to no avail. The bif will keep coming as we've seen throughout history. So "high level chess" needs concrete measures otherwise foot soldiers will keep dying and you'll keep losing. Frankly, given that bjp hasn't turned over temple management in states it has been in power for eons, I don't see them being aware. Modi doesn't need to talk about it. But there are minions abound in his ministry who can. RS Prasad who fought the RJB case could! Bring out old farts like MM Joshi to talk about it. But noo, even rss old fogies are all womens lib this that. How does the lay person who voted for these feel safe n confident that the fight will be fought at all levels?

Look at Pinarayi's statements yesterday. He said 'who is the tantri to take decisions like closing the temple. who is the pandalam royal family. we are democracy now. devaswom board owns the temple and only they can decide' Enough ?

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aftermath and Save Sabarimala

Postby Pulikeshi » 24 Oct 2018 11:16

Dileep wrote:How will one enforce the timing? That is ridiculous. The only thing possible is this "green" or "safe ans sane" (this is a USA term for fireworks with less sound etc) rules that can be enforced upon the manufacturers. The usage can not be controlled.

And what about Vishu? That is the cracker festival for us Midland Malloos. Traditionally, we burst crackers at 3-4 am, right after seeing the "Vishukkani".


An unenforceable law will remain a burden on the books! Now the Supremes are the Cracker Control Board of India? :mrgreen:
One has to wonder why Therehonors are hell bent on diluting this institution that had such high respect from the public?

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aftermath and Save Sabarimala

Postby abhijitm » 24 Oct 2018 11:55

Activists can be or rather should be politicians. But activism should never be tolerate in bureaucracy, military and judiciary. These are three pillars of democracy which are paid through public money but not directly accountable to public. Public cannot vote them out if their activism is unwarranted.

What we are seeing today is judiciary stepping in to activism. Making laws as they see fit for the entire 1.3 billion highly diverse population, bypassing crucial and publicly accountable federal system.

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aftermath and Save Sabarimala

Postby Aditya_V » 24 Oct 2018 12:08

If I am right the SC firecracker judgement is apllicable only the Delhi muncipal limits and not all of India due to increased pollution level.

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aftermath and Save Sabarimala

Postby Sachin » 24 Oct 2018 12:23

ShyamSP wrote:Competent lawyers can keep this verdict in abeyance in courts for long time.

As per one news report (in Malayalam) Abhishek Singvi would now be the lawyer for Prayar Gopalakrishnan, who was once the President of Travancore Devaswom Board and a Congress leader. He would file a review petition and if that fails the plan is to get Kapil Sibal file a new writ petition.

There is also another counter argument now going rounds. That talks about the "implementation" of the Supreme Court order, which the state government completely tries to achieve by brute force.

The Supreme Court has only annulled one section in the Act, by which temples in Kerala were managed. It was this section which legally "banned" women of mensturating age group from entering Sabari Mala. Yes with this legal provision gone, women devotees can enter Sabari Mala temple. But, does Kerala Police have to provide any extra protection? Or should the women make an attempt first, and when it fails approach the police to file a complaint that their right for free movement was violated? If such a complaint is indeed given, the police can only use existing legal provisions against the people who denied the entry. And in places like Sabari Mala where 100s of men gather, it would be again FIR lodges against "100 men, who can be identified only by sight". It becomes a problem if women approach the police with a court order asking the police to ensure that the entry is made.

Dileep wrote:They have their own temples and should be thinking "why not Paravoor Rajesh Thantri replace Thazhamon".

The leader of Ezhava community, Vellappali Nadeshan's stance is also actually interesting. And we have his son leading another organisation who is also in the diametrically opposing group - the BJP and Sangh Parivar. So yes, this could be a Plan B to kind of make this issue an Ezhava v/s others issue and try to replace the chief priest etc. But there could be legal challenges there as now every one is talking about a covenant under which the kings handed over the temples to the government. I feel the current plan is to put mental pressure on the chief priest and the Pandalam royal family, hoping that they would yield.

If Thazhamn is discredited, they can actually "Extract" the Deity and install somewhere else.

That kind of an "uninstall" & "reinstall" option is available and it is regularly done when temples gets remodelled. What happens is that the diety's chaitanya is taken out, and placed onto a temporary diety installed at a small sanctum sanctorum known as a Baalashala. The reverse is done when the temple renovation is done. So yes, Thazhamon taking "their diety" and installing else where is possible, but we must also know about the incident of Sree Narayana Guru who said "I installed an Ezhava siva" as well ;).

So, why not the Pandalam Royals decide to keep the Temple closed, or at least closed for public darshan. This will be a litmus test about "who decides the rituals" question.

It may piss of the devotees who may have planned to make a visit then, because the Mandala season would be too crowded. The only way I see is to keep the threat of closure open, and have the will to execute it.

The chief minister is now going ballistic, which shows his frusturation. He holds the home portfolio, but was no where in the scene when the events at Sabari Mala unfolded. The state's DGP was holidaying at Munnar. The Chief Minister had thought that the verdict would be "executed on ground" by the police, and he would then land back in Kerala and be hailed as a "progressive leader". All this also shows the lack of situational awareness, tactfulness or diplomatic skills. We must also know that his family visit (begging for more funds from UAE) was also not fruitful, as no much money came in.

Mean while..

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aftermath and Save Sabarimala

Postby Karan M » 24 Oct 2018 12:44

hnair wrote:The state has been thrown wide open for the very first time and BJP central leadership has to act. Heard that the Field Marshal is coming to the state. Good to hear that


Fat chance of that happening. This is a party which does nothing when its workers are slaughtered country wide, which has yet to deliver on any of its claims of prosecuting corrupt politicos of the INC/Left persuasion (as versus deal making/or token cases here and there), has its internal orgs full of moles or sympathisers of the previous gen mafia (see the CBI fracas underway currently) and which routinely engages in tough talk and then backs down when it comes to taking action (with loud snickers from the tukde tukde gang, see the way Smriti Irani was brought to heel when she wanted action against fake news). We can only hope that this bunch of wannabe brogressives (as versus their rival "even more/true brogressives") ever wakes up and realizes that its going to be held accountable against its own utterances prior to election. A few measures of stopping FCRA etc are not enough to bolster their nationalist credentials. Right now, they seem to lack any sort of moral fiber and seem to think that metamorphosis into INC-lite is all that they should hope for. All that vikas stuff is not enough to deal with the nation wide scorched earth tactics used by their opponents.

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aftermath and Save Sabarimala

Postby Javee » 24 Oct 2018 17:07

Sachin wrote:
If Thazhamn is discredited, they can actually "Extract" the Deity and install somewhere else.

That kind of an "uninstall" & "reinstall" option is available and it is regularly done when temples gets remodelled. What happens is that the diety's chaitanya is taken out, and placed onto a temporary diety installed at a small sanctum sanctorum known as a Baalashala. The reverse is done when the temple renovation is done. So yes, Thazhamon taking "their diety" and installing else where is possible, but we must also know about the incident of Sree Narayana Guru who said "I installed an Ezhava siva" as well ;).

When Delhi sultans attacked Srirangam temple, the presiding deity was removed and safeguarded in Tirupati. Once the threat was gone, they brought back to the original temple complex. There are plenty of places in KA and TN close to the existing temple that can be used. But I dont think this will happen until the ownership of the temple is established.

Women move HC seeking protection from visiting Sabarimala. A bit of a tricky situation, as approaching the temple with a court order would now put more pressure on the police.

Did you note the names are all hindu sounding now? Who ever it is, quickly re-grouped and found able bodied, willing , hindu women to get to the temple.

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aftermath and Save Sabarimala

Postby chetak » 24 Oct 2018 18:00

Not one cameraperson was there at the Sannidhanam barefoot. Not one journalist was barefoot. Asking you to remove your footwear in a temple would be violation of your fundamental rights #Sabarimala


Image

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aftermath and Save Sabarimala

Postby Dileep » 24 Oct 2018 18:20

There is no requirement to be barefoot below the main complex. Just like any other temple, the "temple proper" is within the first 'praakaaram' (outer perimeter) where you must be barefoot. For Sabarimala, it is the 'pedestal' accessed by the 18 steps. Outside the perimeter, it is not really a field of the Temple.

Women are actually allowed everywhere, except the main complex. So, nothing wrong if they reach upto below the 18 steps, or the steps at the sides. The 'purification' is required only if they go up to the main complex. The restriction from Pampa is just a matter of better enforcement, and also to avoid frustration. Someone trekking 5km over the steep hills and then learning that you can't enter the complex would be really bad.

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aftermath and Save Sabarimala

Postby Sachin » 24 Oct 2018 21:05

Javee wrote:Did you note the names are all hindu sounding now? Who ever it is, quickly re-grouped and found able bodied, willing , hindu women to get to the temple.

Yes, those kind of activities are to be expected as this is now not the Hon.SC verdict which is getting executed, but a pure "prestige issue" of the Chief Minister getting addressed. This is one of those last ditch attempts for the communists to show that they have brought in some "revolutionary changes" to Hindus of Kerala. Their earlier attempts (of taking credit of some one else's job) for "life changing" events among Hindus are all now exposed.

Here again there is a problem, the Irumudi Kettu (a bundle carrying religious offerings) are mandatory for any one to seek entry via the holy 18 steps. People without this will have to gain entry through the side entrance. So we need to see what route the police plans to take women enthusiasts. We must note that the last set of activists, all except one did not have Irumudi Kettu. The one who claimed to have it was Rehana Fathima, but we don't know from which temple or which Guru Swami's assistance she took to pack the mandatory items. A true devotee who does NOT know the rituals generally do this with the guidance of a Guru Swamy (read it all from the official web site of Sabari Mala).

Pooja timings @ Sabari Mala - official web site. As per this the temple opens at 0300Hrs. Neyyabhishekam ritual from 0330Hrs to 1100Hrs hours is like kind of a mandatory attendance event for the devotees. People camp over night so that they can quickly finish this and start trekking down hill. There would also be a rush from uphill as the devotees may wish to reach the temple before 1100Hrs. The slot which seems to have lesser crowd would be from 1100Hrs to 1830Hrs. And here again from 1300Hrs to 1500Hrs the temple would also be closed. Ceremonies starting from 1830Hrs is again important for the devotees. Folks would have started trekking in the afternoon hours to reach the shrine on time. And people who reach in mid-afternoon would have to camp there as they can only attend the Neyyabhishekam the next day. Stay facility at Sabari Mala premises is very very limited. Rooms etc. as it is are very precious items. So what many of the devotees do is to just camp at what ever place which is available.

As I write this the Chief Minister is working on a counter strategy. This is from a Malayalam online news portal, but we cannot get a better reliable source as the main stream media's agenda is now well known.
1. Restrict the stay of people from 16 hours to 24 hours at Sannidhanam, ie the area next to the main temple. This aspect needs to be carefully watched. Identifying devotees based on their arrival time and then forcing them to go down the hills may not be a very easy task.
2. Chief Minister plans to meet the Devaswom/Muzrai Dept in-charges of other states in order to "appraise them of the situation".
3. More crowd control to be done at Nilakkal - a point which is before Pampa river point and the trek start point.
4. 146 cases have been registered in various parts of the state, after the recent protests. Special squads would be formed under the SPs to identify the people involved in rioting etc, to fast track their prosecution.
4. A challenge before the government & police is that they have not yet managed to figure out the number of pilgrims which actually are at a point in the Sabari Mala area. The tactics generally are to have "holding points" where police men stand with big tug ropes and keep the devotees herded like cattle. Then the police communicate with each other over the wireless and based on the instructions move the devotees from point to point. Their plans would go for a six, if there is some stoppage/block at any area.
5. The state government is also planning to evaluate the Tirumala Tirupati model of crowd control.

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aftermath and Save Sabarimala

Postby ramana » 24 Oct 2018 23:25

How long for the current govt term to be over?
What is its majority?
And that of the opposition?

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aftermath and Save Sabarimala

Postby disha » 25 Oct 2018 00:04

Dileep wrote:There is no requirement to be barefoot below the main complex. Just like any other temple, the "temple proper" is within the first 'praakaaram' (outer perimeter) where you must be barefoot. For Sabarimala, it is the 'pedestal' accessed by the 18 steps. Outside the perimeter, it is not really a field of the Temple.


Does not matter., journos should be made to respect the temple. They will not be seen anywhere near masjid area with pork chops in their bag or bottle of wine. Or taking shots of 'bloody mary' near church premises.

In another article:

https://www.opindia.com/2018/10/the-battle-for-sabarimala-consequences-fall-out-communist-action-its-heroes-and-the-hope-for-a-new-dawn/

Also when the Commie govt. of Kerala is busy hanging itself up., one should be patient and give them a long rope. My only chagrin on this thread is some posters putting their store in serial sex offender Abhishek Manu Singhvi. Imagine serial sex offender AM Singhvi batting for "Naishtika Brahmachari" and some going rah-rah as seeing the sex offender as saviour of brahmachari dharma! Oh the irony of it.

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aftermath and Save Sabarimala

Postby Dileep » 25 Oct 2018 07:11

The govt is trying very hard to turn this into a 'Savrna' v/s 'Avarna' issue. The Ezhava prominents have already talking aloud in support of 'brogress'. This is an attempt to use the same old weapon of 'elite upper caste' branding that had been used on BJP for long. This strategy was soo successful, that BJP had to shaft the temples to show that they are all 'brogressive onlee'. So, those folk who want to support the temple would be scared about the bad image.

I forecast that the mainstream neta support for the temple will wane now. No one wants to be branded 'elitist upper glass'. It will be once again the Aam-Swamy fighting for his belief.

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aftermath and Save Sabarimala

Postby Sachin » 25 Oct 2018 11:25

Dileep wrote:I forecast that the mainstream neta support for the temple will wane now. No one wants to be branded 'elitist upper glass'. It will be once again the Aam-Swamy fighting for his belief.

Perhaps you being in KL, you can get more "ground level inputs". As I type this there is a massive crack down on the protestors who were involved at Nilakkal, Pamba etc. Again the main stream media is hollering about serving them justice, where as social media has been talking about Sanghies planning to provide them legal aid, launch more protests etc. The government strategy seems to be plain and simple; use brute force against opponents, use main stream media to show them as villains and then the willing police would put some cases (which actually is trivial). How many such cases have ever seen trial is another story. There was this news about slapping a case on a soldier who is to have "insulted" the Chief Minister. Then there was nothing further on it.

In GDF an RSS supporter mentioned about the Sangh strategy, i.e how RSS actually takes a stance where as the very many other Sangh Parivar organisations take another stance, or work completely in the background. Now we need to see if this is actually working on the ground. If they can keep the issue beyond the caste lines, they may succeed in their aim. The communists are having district wise meetings (head counts??) in order to "explain" their stance, and perhaps throw more upper v/s lower caste theories. And we also cannot believe the main stream media 100%, since we knew how they covered the recent issues in Sabari Mala.

The police's crowd control strategy looks like is to make Nilakkal the biggest base camp/holding point. It is also on level ground, which makes their job easy. From this point no private vehicles would be allowed to Pampa river side, and only KSRTC buses would be allowed. They get a chance to then stop the buses from leaving Pampa, if they find the crowd at Pampa and Sannidhanam unmanageable. Once they know the crowd is less, perhaps they can then use brute force to "help women" to visit the shrine. And only then they will have the next batch of devotees to leave in buses from Nilakkal. But a few "call outs":-
  • In the first few days this strategy may work, but after that if the crowd increases in Nilakkal they will have to start sending the people forward. No devotee would like to see being turned back (and many would find it offensive). The devotees stand in 8 hour long queues etc. for the darshan.
  • Even the government accepts that devotees have to be at Sannidhanam from 16 to 24 hours. If they send up people based on the "official accomodation" provisions at Sannidhanam, they cannot really send very many people at one shot. The current large number of visits is only due to cooperation and the sacrificing mentality of pilgrims. They adjust with each other and use what ever place they have.
  • The commies are trying to implement the "Tirupati" model. But the crucial differences are Tirupati is opened 365 days a year, while Sabari Mala pilgrimage is for a limited duration. In Tirupati a devotee generally gets a darshan of the lord and is asked to move along. That is not possible at Sabari Mala, because each Ayyappa devotee has to do many rituals without which the pilgrimage is not complete. And even at Tirupati "online reservation" is for people seeking comforts. There are Tirupati Balaji devotees who actually walk up the hill, and for them there are no restrictions on darshan timings etc.

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aftermath and Save Sabarimala

Postby Dileep » 25 Oct 2018 14:50

Crowd funding request by the Pandalam royals. This is verified true by news sources.

Image

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aftermath and Save Sabarimala

Postby Sachin » 25 Oct 2018 15:45

Heavy rush at Sabarimala; long wait for darshan (2017 news)
The heavy rush of pilgrims witnessed at Sannidhanam for darshan forced the police to block the pilgrim flow at Pampa nadapandal from late night on Friday till 6 am on Saturday. Long queue for neyyabhishekam A long queue of pilgrims was witnessed for neyyabhishekam offerings. The jampacked queue from 10 pm on Friday, continued till 9 am on Saturday.

Deities and crores of devotees: How Sabarimala and Tirumala manage rising pilgrim count
According to temple PRO Murali, over 3 crore people visited the temple during the 120 days in 2015.
The figure is only expected to increase this year, Murali said.“Every year, we see an increase of 20- 25 per cent.


This report (in Malayalam) has a bit more detail on the police "bandobust" scheme.
* 3 Inspectors General to be in charge of the pilgrimage (Manoj Abraham - Nilakkal, S. Sreejith - Pampa & Anilkumar - Sannidhanam). 5000 police men to be deployed (under Superintends, Dy.SPs, Inspectors etc.).
* As per the police they will have to restrict the pilgrims to 80,000 people per day. If more devotees land up, they have to be held back at Nilakkal base camp. The main season this year is from Nov 16 to Dec 26 (41 days). So 41*80,000 = 32,80,000 devotees expected. How ever as per the report of 2015 3 crores (3,00,00,000) came in during a 120 day time frame.
* Police frankly is expecting no more than 50 women to turn up, but Chief Minister wants all help to be provided. And from what I saw three years back, pucca accommodation is not available for even 40,000 devotees at Sannidhanam (near the temple). The crowd kind of adjusts by camping where ever possible (which the current Govt. is not very keen to allow). And so no devotee will be allowed to stay beyond 16 hours at the temple area.

Along with the court verdict expected on Nov 13, it would also be the turn out of devotees during this Mandala Pooja which will determine the future of the unique hill shrine at Sabari Mala.

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aftermath and Save Sabarimala

Postby Yagnasri » 25 Oct 2018 16:01

My sister is planing to visit in spite of my self telling. She is nearly 58 years old and has health issues. So she want to visit this year along with other relatives who have already taken Diksha. She will be visiting in the last month of November.

This 80k people per day is not going to be realistic. There will not be regular flow of people with fixed number coming every day to the visit the Lord. Humans are not machines though the communists like to think and want to make them as such. I fear this idea of stopping people at one place and then sending them is Q makes the entire thing highly unmanageable to put it very mildly. People from all over India come there and I am not sure if Kerala police can manage such multilingual masses who may get agitated if the regular flow of devotees is not allowed to the temple and restrictions are put in place.

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aftermath and Save Sabarimala

Postby Dileep » 25 Oct 2018 16:52

No pilgrim really stays for more than 16 Hours there at Sannidhanam. There is no real "accommodation" there.There should be a few thousand 'rooms' and a few long shacks. The "allocation" of rooms is a major pain, unless you go through some 'channel'. People camp up wherever some space is available.

My routine is to reach the place close to sundown, spend the night there and trek back in the morning. Another lot of people reach during the night, have darshan in the morning and return. Some people trek in the morning, and return in the afternoon. The place is pretty much tightly packed throughout the day. I don't know how you can bring an undesirable person through this, without some application of force. There will be at least a hundred people within earshot of any point.

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aftermath and Save Sabarimala

Postby ramana » 26 Oct 2018 00:04

lots of arrests up to 1200 people arrested per twitter.

E.g..

https://twitter.com/excomradekerala/sta ... 28512?s=19

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aftermath and Save Sabarimala

Postby vinod » 26 Oct 2018 00:29

More than 1400 arrested...

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aftermath and Save Sabarimala

Postby ramana » 26 Oct 2018 02:13

I tweeted to the Governor to intervene on behalf of the devotees. He is now in Delhi anyway.
Maybe that is why Vijayan is cracking down on the people.

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aftermath and Save Sabarimala

Postby disha » 26 Oct 2018 06:36

vinod wrote:More than 1400 arrested...


All swamis are criminals now. Particularly who did 41 days vratham and centuries old traditions matter for them. Only people like Rehana Fathima are true devotees and progressive liberals.

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aftermath and Save Sabarimala

Postby arvin » 26 Oct 2018 09:47

Smriti iranis comments yesterday shows center is keenly following the developments.

Meanwhile our dear sakhav Pinarayi Vijayan is doing everything possible to alienate Hindus. While every other opposition party from congress to mamta is going all out to woo hindu vote bank by way of rebranding (shiv bakht) or giving 10000 rs to pooja mandals, this guy is doing exactly the opposite by way of police action.

IMO he is the weakest link in the opposition plans for wooing hindu vote bank. He has called a meeting of Devaswom ministers of all south states on oct 31. My guess is he is trying to plan quota or something when the temple main season starts in november.

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aftermath and Save Sabarimala

Postby chetak » 26 Oct 2018 10:23

arvin wrote:Smriti iranis comments yesterday shows center is keenly following the developments.

Meanwhile our dear sakhav Pinarayi Vijayan is doing everything possible to alienate Hindus. While every other opposition party from congress to mamta is going all out to woo hindu vote bank by way of rebranding (shiv bakht) or giving 10000 rs to pooja mandals, this guy is doing exactly the opposite by way of police action.

IMO he is the weakest link in the opposition plans for wooing hindu vote bank. He has called a meeting of Devaswom ministers of all south states on oct 31. My guess is he is trying to plan quota or something when the temple main season starts in november.


There are many sickular, beef eating, culturally deracinated guys, allegedly from "our camp" who have always sided with the commies.

If it wasn't for the votes of such people, the commies could never sustain their relevance and also their political presence.

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aftermath and Save Sabarimala

Postby chetak » 26 Oct 2018 12:48

whatsapp


Best solution to Shabarimala is to appoint Bishop Franco Mulakkal as Tantri.*Even ladies beyond 60 will be scared to come to Shabarimala!*

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aftermath and Save Sabarimala

Postby Sachin » 26 Oct 2018 13:04

ramana wrote:I tweeted to the Governor to intervene on behalf of the devotees. He is now in Delhi anyway.

The Governor has taken a report from the DGP, and a local daily reported that he is at New Delhi and would also be meeting the Home Minister. So looks like there is some "behind the scene" activities going on.

vinod wrote:More than 1400 arrested...

What the online media sources do not say is that "1250 have also been released on police station bail" ;). I read this in today's Mathrubhumi printed edition, where as their online edition does not tell this clearly. The remaining people were directly involved in destorying KSRTC buses and police vehicles. For them the court have send them on judicial remand, with a hefty bail amount. The online media is desperately trying to create a panic situation among the "social media" warriors (who are not on the ground, and may get scared with words like "arrest"). The DGP has now clarified that there were mistakes in the initial set of photos released (there was even duplicates and a police man in them ;)), and these are also not "look out notices".

As per this report from Malayala Manorama; 2061 arrests and 1937 released on PS bail. Which means 124 people in judicial remand. Just think about, Kerala jails just cannot take a huge prison load of 2061 in one fine day. The Sangh workers also know this well ;).

arvin wrote:He has called a meeting of Devaswom ministers of all south states on oct 31. My guess is he is trying to plan quota or something when the temple main season starts in november.

He may use the "Kerala Floods" to request the states NOT to send many pilgrims, and never bring up the point of "women seeking entry". So yes, but I don't know if other state ministers would be keen to follow his directives. And secondly, why should other states depute their forces to stop the pilgrims within the state limits? The custom is that if an Ayyappa devotee has worn the "necklace" and have started the Vruth etc., he can only stop it when there is some "defilement" (eg: death in the family). Or else he has to report to Ayyappa at Sabari Mala. So stopping people on their way to Sabari Mala would be a bit dicey.

Mean while there is lots of public posturing happening in Kerala (now that the temple is shut, it is now 100% politics and dirty tricks).

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Re: Kerala Floods - Aftermath and Save Sabarimala

Postby Sachin » 26 Oct 2018 13:26

Malayala Manorama has some inputs on the new plan of the police for crowd control (now that the "Tirumala model" will not fly).
  • The day will be grouped into four time slots (6 hours/slot). And for each slot maximum load (of devotees) would only be 30,000. The report does not mention any thing on how the entire Sabari Mala darshan can be done within six hours time. There are some rituals which only happen at night, and some which only happen in the morning (3AM-11AM). With this 1,20,000 pilgrims can be handled every day.
  • Nilakkal would be the "holding point" of the devotees. The Ke.SRTC would enable online reservation for the journey between Nilakkal and Pampa based on the time slots. This data would also be fed into the "Virtual Q system" of the police. Each ticket (pre-booked) will have a QR code.
  • The ticket holder would approach the Ke.SRTC counter who would scan the QR code and direct them to buses alloted for that time slot. At Pampa river point, devotees get down and the police scans the same QR code and guides the devotee to "Virtual Q system" (which is like a fast track queue). The scanning would be done in reverse process to take the pilgrims back.
  • With this the police expects to find out the head count of people planning to visit Sabari Mala on what day, and with QR code scanning they also expect to know how many have reported at Nilakkal base camp, how many are at Pampa and how many are at the Sannidhanam (the temple area).
  • For online booking and virtual Q, address and ID proof is mandatory. So police hopes to identify people easily, if they resort to trouble at Sabari Mala.
  • How ever there are loop holes here, mainly due to the availability of lots of alternate routes. There could also be lot of current booking situations (i.e every one may not opt for booking in advance). "Virtual Q system" was optional till last year, and there are lot of pilgrims who do not wish to avail such facilities. Whether they can all be coerced to use the "Virtual Q system" is another question.

Manorama Online reports again on another sinister plan from CPI(M). That is to deploy hard core party workers as "daily wage labourers" in Sabari Mala. 1600 openings would be there and the Devaswom Board will fill them with commies. The commies have realised that last time their operation failed because there was no commie cadre available at key points to "assist the police". The Ayyappa devotees overwhelmed the police by their sheer numbers.

Order to deploy women staff at Pampa river point (for the 5th & 6th Nov) issued. This is a routine order which the Devaswom Board issues when ever the temple opens. This does NOT indicate that women will not be allowed on 5th and 6th.

Kerala Gov. meets Home Minister Rajnath Singh. The L&O situation and the recent happenings at the hill temple were said to be discussed/reviewed.


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