Pedophilia/Pederasty/Infidelity Crisis in the Roman Catholic Organization

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A_Gupta
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Re: Pedophilia/Pederasty/Infidelity Crisis in the Roman Catholic Organization

Postby A_Gupta » 29 Aug 2018 13:46

On the whole, people should not confuse lay Christians with the Church; often the Church behaves like a large bureaucracy, not spiritual in any way.

----
https://www.burlingtonfreepress.com/sto ... 108320002/

In the 1990s, Burlington Free Press journalists including Sam Hemingway reported extensively on allegations of child abuse by former residents of St. Joseph's Orphanage in Burlington. Two decades later, Christine Kenneally, a reporter for the online news site BuzzFeed News, has spent four years revisiting the scandal of child abuse at Catholic orphanages around the United States.

Much of Kenneally's report focuses on abuse at the Burlington orphanage, which was located on North Avenue. With BuzzFeed News' permission, the Free Press publishes this excerpt.

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Re: Pedophilia/Pederasty/Infidelity Crisis in the Roman Catholic Organization

Postby Philip » 29 Aug 2018 14:57

I said before that such abuse is not restricted to the RC church alone.The Anglican church in Britain has also been accused of a cover up of similar atrocious behaviour.It too has delayed investigations into such cases and is allegedly doing nothing pro-active to find the truth.

The foll. is bad news for Pope Francis.Not only is the Vatican coming in for severe stick,but he personally too for allegedly washing his hands off the issue like Pontius Pilate.

Catholic Church sex abuse cover-up in Pennsylvania ‘went all the way to the Vatican’, says state attorney general
The prosecutor is not directly implicating Pope Francis, but claims the Vatican was aware of a systematic cover up

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/worl ... 11251.html

Pennsylvania’s attorney general has claimed to have evidence that the Vatican was aware of a systematic cover up for decades of sex abuse carried out by priests in the Catholic Church.

Josh Shapiro described the abuses dating back to 1947 found by a grand jury in an interview with NBC’s Today Show, including “a systematic cover up that went all the way to the Vatican”.

“I can’t specifically speak to Pope Francis,” the attorney general said Monday about whether or not the the pontiff was aware of the abuses. But, he said: “We have evidence that the Vatican had knowledge of a cover up.”

READ MORE
Vatican breaks silence on abuse of 1,000 children in US report
An estimated 300 Roman Catholic priests in Pennsylvania molested more than 1,000 children – and possibly many more – since the 1940s, according to a scathing Pennsylvania grand jury report that accused senior church officials, including the man who is now archbishop of Washington, DC, of systematically covering up complaints.

The “real number” of victimised children and abusive priests might be higher since some secret church records were lost and some victims never came forward, the grand jury said in the report, which is the largest of its kind in the United States.

US bishops adopted widespread reforms in 2002 when clergy abuse became a national crisis for the church, including stricter requirements for reporting accusations to law enforcement and a streamlined process for removing clerics. But the grand jury said more changes are needed.

“Despite some institutional reform, individual leaders of the church have largely escaped public accountability,” the grand jury wrote in the roughly 900-page report. “Priests were raping little boys and girls, and the men of God who were responsible for them not only did nothing; they hid it all.”

Meanwhile, Pope Francis faced a lukewarm reception and scattered protests on his trip to Ireland, with even his vow to rid the church of the “scourge” of sexual abuse and his outrage at those “repugnant crimes” dismissed as a disappointment by some of Ireland’s wounded victims.

But others who met with him in private left heartened that he would respond to their plight, including two of the thousands of children who were forcibly put up for adoption for the shame of having been born to unwed mothers. They said Francis described the corruption and cover up in the church as “caca” – which a Vatican translated for the English speakers as “filth as one sees in the toilet”.

READ MORE
Vatican clarifies Pope’s comments on psychiatric help for gay children
Here’s what the Pope must do to atone the Church’s historic failings
Pope must resign over sex abuse crisis, former Vatican official says

The abuse scandal – which has exploded anew in the US but has convulsed Ireland since the 1990s with revelations of unfathomable violence and humiliation against women and children – took centre stage on the first day of the Pope’s two-day trip. The visit was originally intended to celebrate Catholic families.

Francis responded to the outcry by vowing to end sex abuse and cover up during a speech to Irish government authorities at Dublin Castle.

‘I beg the Lord’s forgiveness’ for child abuse ‘betrayal’ says Pope Francis at a service in Knock, Ireland
“The failure of ecclesiastical authorities – bishops, religious superiors, priests and others – to adequately address these repugnant crimes has rightly given rise to outrage, and remains a source of pain and shame for the Catholic community,” he told them. “I myself share these sentiments.”

He cited measures taken by his predecessor, Pope Benedict XVI, to respond to the crisis. But while Benedict is credited with cracking down on abusers, he never acknowledged the Vatican’s role in fuelling a culture of cover up or sanctioned bishops for failing to protect their flocks from predator priests.



PS:Unless the Pope cracks down on the errant clergy no matter how high they are,and pension them off from any further public religious activity,plus make real amends to the affected victms,the stain of this scandal will haunt the church for history. It may even destabilise the church and the Vatican as the spiritual and moral centre of Roman Catholicism .Can Pope Francis survive this scandal that keeps on erupting? Perhaps Fr.Malachy ,who prophesied the number and description of all the popes,may be right for if he's accurate,this Pope may be the last one.

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Re: Pedophilia/Pederasty/Infidelity Crisis in the Roman Catholic Organization

Postby JE Menon » 29 Aug 2018 16:36

>>this Pope may be the last one.

Highly unlikely Philip. The Roman Catholic Church has proven to be highly durable, and very "temporal" as you mentioned. They have managed to survive this long precisely because of a willingness to do whatever it takes, not just to survive, but to thrive - commerce, conquest and cynical command over the gullible. This approach is likely to continue, and so are the line of popes.

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Re: Pedophilia/Pederasty/Infidelity Crisis in the Roman Catholic Organization

Postby UlanBatori » 29 Aug 2018 17:46

Avarachan: Need to cite historical context. This is not some deviant behavior by a few "rotten apples". There are "root causes" that seem to go far deeper. I agree with the basic premise that none of this has anything to do with the teachings and example of Yeso Ben Ouseph the Nazarene. Which is more than I can say about some other belief systems. But the context must be understood.

From Western Canada:
It was called "ASSimiliation" then.
Landmark report reveals school system’s brutal attempt to assimilate thousands of native children for more than a century and gives voice to survivors


And oh, yeah, they were Leaders in Scientific Experiments, loong before 1942 Auschwitz.

Why do I know these: here's an example of the lasting effect. Back many saal pehle (beyond the Statute of Limitations) I was in Vancouver Island, along with a lawyer who had helped the First Nations negotiate with above guvrmand. Before the meeting with the tribal Roundtable, the lawyer cautioned us over b'fast: These are sensitive people, suspicious of outsiders with good reason. Keep your mouth shut, let me do all the talking, or they will simply walk out. We were considering how to bring some technology that would help them keep their cultural attachments. I suggested brightly:
The way to get buy-in is through their school teachers: make them give homework assignments, the parents will learn the stuff.

Lawyer:
THAT's why I told you to keep your mouth shut. Mention the word "schools" and they will walk out..
And he told me why.

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Re: Pedophilia/Pederasty/Infidelity Crisis in the Roman Catholic Organization

Postby Singha » 29 Aug 2018 20:01

Murican deep state has clearly given go ahead to tar and feather the vatican elite

Could be variety of reasons incl cutting the euros to size

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Re: Pedophilia/Pederasty/Infidelity Crisis in the Roman Catholic Organization

Postby Karthik S » 29 Aug 2018 20:27

Singha wrote:Murican deep state has clearly given go ahead to tar and feather the vatican elite

Could be variety of reasons incl cutting the euros to size


Aren't they as a society angilican anyway? There has been only 1 RC pres in 220 years.

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Re: Pedophilia/Pederasty/Infidelity Crisis in the Roman Catholic Organization

Postby A_Gupta » 29 Aug 2018 20:54

Singha wrote:Murican deep state has clearly given go ahead to tar and feather the vatican elite

Could be variety of reasons incl cutting the euros to size


Roman Catholics are the largest denomination in the US (22% of the population) and the United States has the fourth largest Catholic population in the world after Brazil, Mexico and the Philippines. Politically prominent Catholics in the US include Vice President Mike Pence, Speaker of the House of Representatives Paul Ryan, Chief Justice John Roberts. Europe is about one-third Catholic; and constitutes about a quarter of Catholics worldwide.

PS: The Supreme Court justices Samuel Alito, Sonia Sotomayor and Clarence Thomas are Catholic; as are x-VP Joseph Biden, Ex-Secy of State John Kerry, Minority Leader in the House Nancy Pelosi; 27% of the Republicans in the Congress and 37% of the Democratic members, 24% of the Senate.
Last edited by A_Gupta on 29 Aug 2018 21:12, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Pedophilia/Pederasty/Infidelity Crisis in the Roman Catholic Organization

Postby Singha » 29 Aug 2018 20:59

Hispanics are catholics and will be majority by mid century

Deep state would be lutheran and unitarian coastal elite

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Re: Pedophilia/Pederasty/Infidelity Crisis in the Roman Catholic Organization

Postby Singha » 29 Aug 2018 21:44

Simon Kuestenmacher
@simongerman600
Aug 26
#Map shows where Roman Catholic Popes were born with modern names of nations. Source: https://buff.ly/2BLrV2K
Image

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Re: Pedophilia/Pederasty/Infidelity Crisis in the Roman Catholic Organization

Postby Singha » 29 Aug 2018 21:45

surprisingly low from spain and portugal...given the italian and spanish elites have intermingled from roman times. spain was a core area of the roman empire.

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Re: Pedophilia/Pederasty/Infidelity Crisis in the Roman Catholic Organization

Postby Rakesh » 30 Aug 2018 03:57

JEM: Good posts by you in this thread. Just a few points that I need to expand on.

JE Menon wrote:For believing Christians, especially Catholics, this must be a really tough period. One wonders, eventually, what the outcome of all this will be. If it results in a church that is based on the strength of belief, rather than on the sturdiness of organization, on pure faith rather than raw power, and perhaps a refocusing on the Christianity of Jesus rather than that of Paul, there may be a way for the religion to maintain its flock and its ethos - at least in "the West".

The only outcome is that the Catholic Church (and all institutionalized churches) must be dissolved. Easier said than done, but that is the only way to end the mess. And dissolution of the church is not the only solution. The guilty members *MUST* be convicted under the law. Thirdly, there has to be a sizeable compensation for the people's lives they ruined. They cannot undo what they have done, but compensation is the next best thing - IMVHO - after dissolution and jail time.

The Christianity of Jesus and the Christianity of Paul are one and the same. It is the Roman Catholic Church (and other institutionalized churches) that has convoluted the message of Christianity. Paul never - in his wildest dreams - would have expected to see the Catholic Church involved in this debauchery. This is pure evil. For anyone to provide an excuse for this kind of behaviour, makes one equally guilty of the crime.

JE Menon wrote:4. The first bible was written in Greek, the language of the refined elites at the time (but not only, it was spoken by the ethnic Greek born too). Now remember this: neither Jesus nor any of his apostles (and possibly Paul himself was not fluent - although he was born in Tarsus which was a Greek city in what is now Turkey). So anything we have about what Jesus said or didn't say, etc is coming to us through major filters of language, time and ethnicity - to put it mildly.

I agree with you, when looking at the Bible from the outside. However to a Christian - but NOT to the Roman Catholic Church (and some other institutionalized churches) - the Bible is the infallible word of God. And while there have been scores of books, articles, etc written to point out the many errors (as they call them), for a Christian there only is the Bible and nothing else. However, no Christian can (or should) force that view point on anyone. The Bible does not instruct anyone to forcibly accept Christianity. The ability to believe comes from God alone.

JE Menon wrote:But this lack of knowledge, combined with great financial power, results in a bull-in-a-china-shop situation when Christianity encounters other faith systems - especially when it is thrust forward with the Pauline pressure to convert societies.

The Pauline pressure that you have mentioned above is actually RCC pressure only. History is filled with proven accounts of how Western Europe - in the name of Christianity - ruined civilizations, murdered people, and plundered & looted where ever they went. Today, many Protestants are doing the same thing, but instead of swords & spears they are doing conversions by false preaching. As I said above, the ability to believe comes from God alone. So it is extremely disingenuous when missionaries go around the world, claiming that they are converting people to Christianity. Nobody, I repeat NOBODY, can covert you to Christianity. Only God can do that. And God is NOT the Roman Catholic Church (or other institutionalized churches). They do not represent God. They are the anti-thesis to everything that God taught.

JE Menon wrote:The Orthodox church is much less "in your face" than the Catholic version. I have lived in the Orthodox milieu (outside India) for decades and never faced proselytization. At the same time, in the same area, I have dealt with the evangelism of Catholics, Protestants, Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons (who are not Christians, strictly speaking).

You are already EONS ahead of others who believe they are. Thank you for saying that.

I was born into the Malankara Orthodox Church. Believe me when I say this - the Orthodox Church is in the least bit interested in converting you. Non-Orthodox (forget other religions, many in the OC have the audacity to look down upon other Christian sects as un-Christian!) are actually pooh-pooed in the OC. That is the other extreme and is a whole different topic, for another time.

The OC is also undergoing its own sexual scandals. Four priests (probably more) have been charged with sexually exploiting a woman (from her teenage years) who is now in her 30s. It is a huge scandal that has rocked the OC, however the senior leadership of the church are acting like ostriches with their head stuck in the sand. And this is a known and confirmed case. There are a ridiculous number of other cases that have not come to the forefront because of the power that the OC wields within its community. As a side note, the OC practices celibacy, however their priests can get married but cannot become a bishop. But similar views to the RCC - Mother Mary was a virgin till she died, Jesus had no brothers or sisters, Priesthood, Pope, etc.

The problem with the RCC and other similar institutionalized churches is that they hero worship man and have forgotten God. They have replaced God with man made traditions, rules, their theology to further their own agendas and expand their own powers. When you have control over a large populace, the power can truly make one drunk.

Philip wrote:But what is the root cause of such perversion? It is CELIBACY. Celibacy goes against human nature to reproduce.It's in our genes. Christ never asked his disciples to remain celibate. Many of his disciples were married.The comparative lesser numbers of such abuse in the Anglican church is because priests can marry.The RC church has fudged the issue because the financial burden would b*ggar it (pun intended!) .Costs of married accommodation, etc. is impossible in most monasteries and abbeys .It is simply un-affordable if every priest is allowed to marry.

Well said. Celibacy ruined the Church. Sex is as normal as breathing. The issue that the RCC (and some other institutionalized churches) made is with the pleasure aspect of sex. The pleasure was viewed as evil and nothing to do with God. That is complete and utter nonsense and is not taught anywhere in the Bible. Just as you said, it is a human desire to reproduce and see your offspring (and your grandchildren and hopefully, even your great grand-children!). This convoluted thinking that absolving yourself from sex - in the faint hope of coming closer to God, through meditation and prayer - is a load of complete horseshit. That line of thinking is what is ruining the RCC (and other institutionalized churches) that practise celibacy.

Deans wrote:Fully agree. The best researched books I've read, is Reza Aslan's `Zealot', which elaborates on these points.
I'd add to this that even the accounts the 4 gospels (which are the basis of Catholic beliefs) are fairly inconsistent. The later gospel writers
put the blame for the death of Jesus on the Jews, in order to be politically correct (Rome having just defeated a major Jewish revolt). That
sparked off centuries of Antisemitism, which the church was often at the forefront of. The Pope, during WW2, did not condemn the holocaust.

The later gospel writers are right and so are the first four gospels that indicate that the Romans killed Christ. The Pharisees (Jewish high priests) murdered Jesus and the Romans were the facilitators of that process. But the Pharisees are solely responsible for his murder. Jesus Christ threatened their very economic and theological existence. And when they felt that they could be rendered useless - because of his teaching and popularity - they demanded that Pontius Pilate kill Him. When it becomes an issue of feeding your stomach and losing your power / prestige, one will go to any length to preserve it.

Deans wrote:What I had meant to say was that while the head of the Catholic church is the Pope, the Orthodox church does not have a Pope equivalent. They do have a `Ecumenical Patriarch' who is a `first among equals' among the various patriarchs. For a Russian Orthodox christian, the head of his church is the Russian Patriarch and not anyone outside the country. The patriarch in turn defers to the head of state (Putin), on any policy matter where both church and State are involved. The extent to which a ruler could influence church policy was the root cause of the split between Catholic and Orthodox churches in the middle ages. In a country like India, by contrast, the church can claim that they are answerable to the Vatican and not the State.

You may be right about the Russian Orthodox Church. However many Indian Christian Churches have their own Popes. There is a centuries long battle between who is the rightful Pope of the Malankara Orthodox Church. A fight that will never end and has even reached the Supreme Court of India. And the Supreme Court has also rendered its verdict, but they are still fighting. Look up autocephaly and Malankara Orthodox Church.

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Re: Pedophilia/Pederasty/Infidelity Crisis in the Roman Catholic Organization

Postby Singha » 30 Aug 2018 09:47

the RCC is probably the biggest landowner (by $$ value) and repository of priceless art treasures in the world. it has never been valued but just the vatican alone has vast art treasures that are priceless from the likes of raphael, bernini, michaelangelo, da vinci et al.

all the church property in prime locales around the world belong to it and there is no question of any local succession or usurper trying to grab church property.

one person(non rcc) told me long ago the celibacy thing may have had its origins in renunciating worldly pleasures and being a itinerant preacher in the form of the old disciples in galilee and judaea but later once the RCC got hold of property on a large scale , they did not want wives,children of long serving pastors who passed away demanding some succession rights or share of the wealth, so they continued on with celibacy.

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Re: Pedophilia/Pederasty/Infidelity Crisis in the Roman Catholic Organization

Postby JE Menon » 30 Aug 2018 14:46

Rakesh, good to have you on this thread.

>>The Christianity of Jesus and the Christianity of Paul are one and the same. It is the Roman Catholic Church (and other institutionalized churches) that has convoluted the message of Christianity.

Indeed, that is what I meant to convey when I said Pauline Christianity. It is the Roman Catholic Church which has "benefited and expanded" so to speak on the back of Paul's name. Apologies to anyone who may have thought otherwise.

>>I was born into the Malankara Orthodox Church.

Say no more. I grew up with Christians of the Malankara OC. Proud and resolute fathers/mothers and their sons (who were my classmates) who neither denigrated us, nor praised us, and nor were we expected to praise them or did they fear non-MOC people denigrating them. They were part of the social scenery as we were - and the food and other peculiar differences were mutually enjoyed. It may sound stereotypical, but it is the sinew of society: countless neyappams were stolen by these chaps barely had my "tuck-box" opened; and ditto the fish fry from their side which rarely lasted a few hours. I still remember the taste (nearly 30 odd years later).

Here's a little personal secret: I really didn't know any "fundamental difference" between myself and the OC guys and neither they with me I suspect. In my case, it was because of my sister that I began to take an interest in this whole civilizational business. I didn't know the difference between an OC and RC then. She was in an RC convent and was about to get expelled, because one day she got tired of the nun denigrating Shiva & Vishnu and stood up and challenged the sister doing it. The class (majority Hindu I later discovered) rallied around her and it became something of a "scandal" in the college (this was in 1996-97 - dates are fuzzy in my mind). They threatened to expel her. She was a fine student, and it didn't happen.

Anyways, we talked about it and I remember she told me: "Etta, what makes these people think they can insult our beliefs so casually and easily in a college? How are they so comfortable doing it?" She was upset, and thought it was utterly wrong. Clearly, something had stirred in her. And that was one of the last things we discussed (of substance - i.e. than the usual sibling stuff) as she passed away in a car accident a little later. I never forgot what she told me. More important was how she said it, with a kind of tearful pride. That pride, which I had never felt being a Macaulayite through and through, touched something in me too. I joined this then barely known discussion list started by a bunch of guys proud of India in 1997.

One of them was Rakesh, who I now discover is a Malankara Orthodox Christian (I knew he was Christian, but not of what denomination). I'm not sure exactly why, but this is the sort of thing that makes me tremendously proud to be Indian.

Apologies Avarachan, for that little diversion.

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Re: Pedophilia/Pederasty/Infidelity Crisis in the Roman Catholic Organization

Postby KL Dubey » 30 Aug 2018 15:17

^^Menon - good posts, and the last was probably the most senti post I have ever read on BRF/BGR.

The truly Indian approach to all this can be summed up as: Gawd (i.e. religion) is a hobby, but the "gods" of the Vedas are serious business. As long as you only trust the Vedas, it doesn't matter what religion you think you belong to.

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Re: Pedophilia/Pederasty/Infidelity Crisis in the Roman Catholic Organization

Postby JE Menon » 30 Aug 2018 18:08

KLD thanks boss.

What is your twitter handle? And if you are not there, why not? Your acid wit and knowledge are deeply required on that warfront!!!

Mine is @jai_menon

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Re: Pedophilia/Pederasty/Infidelity Crisis in the Roman Catholic Organization

Postby sanjaykumar » 30 Aug 2018 20:04

Thanks sanjaykumar. I've taken the liberty of appreciating your sentiment and then deleting your post - so that we can move on with the discussion. Not sure what prompted me to make that post so early in the morning where I am at the moment. Apologies again to Avarachan for the diversion - JE Menon

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Re: Pedophilia/Pederasty/Infidelity Crisis in the Roman Catholic Organization

Postby Neela » 30 Aug 2018 21:14

On German radio 2 days back.

Ukraine is considering breaking ties with Russian Orthodox church and going it alone.
They want direct association with the Orthodox church in Constatinople.
And the Russians are heading there to prevent this from happening.

Only goes to show the power these folks yield over the masses. Why would this appear on German radio otherwise?

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Re: Pedophilia/Pederasty/Infidelity Crisis in the Roman Catholic Organization

Postby Deans » 30 Aug 2018 21:38

Neela wrote:On German radio 2 days back.

Ukraine is considering breaking ties with Russian Orthodox church and going it alone.
They want direct association with the Orthodox church in Constatinople.
And the Russians are heading there to prevent this from happening.

Only goes to show the power these folks yield over the masses. Why would this appear on German radio otherwise?


Western Ukraine is mostly Catholic - used to be part of Catholic Poland.
Eastern Ukraine & Crimea are mostly Orthodox (and has a high Russian population).

The religious differences are exacerbating political tensions between Russia and Ukraine. (Like Orthodox Serbia and Catholic Croatia).

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Re: Pedophilia/Pederasty/Infidelity Crisis in the Roman Catholic Organization

Postby Singha » 30 Aug 2018 21:53

yes i believe poland was ripped into pieces from all sides and everyone carved a piece out of it. western ukraine has more in common with poland culturally.

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Re: Pedophilia/Pederasty/Infidelity Crisis in the Roman Catholic Organization

Postby JE Menon » 31 Aug 2018 10:10

>>The religious differences are exacerbating political tensions between Russia and Ukraine. (Like Orthodox Serbia and Catholic Croatia).

And Germany is likely (attempting to) play a similar role to what it did leading to the Croatian-Serbian confrontation. Needless to say Ukraine itself was barely a functional independent state for any length of time. I think a decade at most, i.e. in its history before the collapse of the former Soviet Union when it became independent. It was ruled or overlorded by the Poles, Russians and various other configurations...

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Re: Pedophilia/Pederasty/Infidelity Crisis in the Roman Catholic Organization

Postby Neela » 31 Aug 2018 10:51

In Ireland, the church has seen a massive massive drop in followers.
The pedophilia & anti-abortion stand from the Church was on slow boil. Then the tragic,cruel case of Halapanavar happened,
.

Imagine the fury of women against the Church when it dictates their fate through doctors.

Ms Halappanavar presented at Galway University Hospital with severe back pain on October 21st, 2012, and was found to be miscarrying her 17-week pregnancy.

After a day in “agony” and distress, she asked for a termination but was refused because there was a foetal heartbeat. She was again refused the next day because of the heartbeat. Doctors checked for the heartbeat several times a day, as Savita grew increasingly ill.

On the third day she spontaneously delivered a female foetus and went into a coma, before being transferred to the high-dependency unit and then intensive care, where she deteriorated into septic shock, multiple organ failure and died of cardiac arrest at 1.09am on October 28th, 2012


Apparently for some ceremony celebrating passing of the pro-choice laws, several 1000 Irish women travelled from the world over to pay respects to SAvita.

End result: Some 30% drop in Catholic followers in a once strongly Catholic country.

Imagine this. Half of Ireland turn up for the Pope during his last visit 40 yrs back.
2018. 130K people turn up.

I cannot really imagine how anyone can not realize that right from Constantine's times, it is simplly a ruthless,slimy org.
Church <=> Power.

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Re: Pedophilia/Pederasty/Infidelity Crisis in the Roman Catholic Organization

Postby Philip » 31 Aug 2018 11:34

All religions have their share of sex abuses.Today's paper has news about a Buddhist monk.There are regular reports coming out of Thailand, SL, etc. about similar scandals.Monks in mercs. too! I've mentioned the Anglican churcb too.However, one can't throw out the baby with the bathtub.There are numerous excellent universities, schools and hospitals run by Christian entities both RC and Protestant.They continue to do excellent work.

What the RC churcb needs is a new reformation of the institution.The last one was by Martin Luther who fed up with the corruption effectively split the Roman church.Henry the VIIIth's lust saw the establishment of the CoE.If thia does not happen in the established churches disillusionment will see even further falling in numbetrs golbally.In the US the evangelicals are on a roll because of the failures of the established church.

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Re: Pedophilia/Pederasty/Infidelity Crisis in the Roman Catholic Organization

Postby Kashi » 31 Aug 2018 11:43

Philip wrote:All religions have their share of sex abuses.


The difference is that only a select few have a centralised, unified authority attempting to hush up these incidents and evoke theological sentiments in doing so.

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Re: Pedophilia/Pederasty/Infidelity Crisis in the Roman Catholic Organization

Postby Neela » 31 Aug 2018 14:03

I always wonder why powerful,elected leaders with democratic sanction,police and intelligence inputs dont stand up to the church .

My initial guess was that the Church is too strongly embedded into the power structure. So I read up some history.
The colossal & dark shift came when Roman rulers and esp. Constantine yielded to Church.
From justifying power in the name of people as was common in the ROman times, Constantine collaborated with the Church to justify power & his rule _in the name of God_. You can argue RR Chola did the same, by claiming antecedents from the famed Surya dynasty. But the difference is that RR Chola as a Kshatriya was only after power with no other background entity waiting for a chance. Whereas Constantine gave political space to a nebulous body claiming to be representatives of god. Whether this move from him was intentional or unintentional is unclear. Maybe he realized the growing clout & following for Christianity and made a smart move for his own power. Christians celebrate him as the first Xtian ruler though.

Now, what has this to do with Church's power? Well in 200-300 years during and after Constantine,

- state support for pagan festivals die out. The pagan leaders plead with the rulers to no avail ( See parallel to India here? )
- Paganism is declared illegal and Xtianity becomes the state religion.

The invisible hold over power is complete. And it remains unchanged in 2018.

it is very clear the Church went beyond religion with an intent to take over power, albeit with a benign facade. It knew that to get into a position of power, it needed to join & subvert the Roman ruling class . But to do that, it needed faithful & exclusive followers.It was active in converting the pagans . So when a critical mass was reached among the people, it went for power. (Again see the parallels in India here?) . The big break was when it got Constantine.


The Church is, whether you like it or not, is after power. The church will use "belief" of the people to establish its own political space without actually having any designated position in the govt structure. It will bide its time and lay low when needed. it will convert, it will hunt down non-believers as parallel faiths dilute the quest. It will establish itself in the power structure when the time comes. The facade of its own persecution ("growing intolerance") , professing love & peace are psychological tools to gain a stronger foothold among the masses.

The point I want to make here is I *think* to stand up against Pedophilia & crimes of the Church, politicians will find it hard to make a strong move so long as there are faithfuls. it will be politically disastrous for anyone who takes a stand. However there is something more it. Look, we are talking of 100s of 1000s of victims. In Europe. In US. In Australia. All under the umbrella of RCC. Yet there has been NO concerted coordinated move by any govt units like Police or Child Protection services to act on it. Now, imagine if a large organization like Tata Sons had an equivalent pedophilia scandal spanning the globe? What do you think might have happened?
Why isnt the RCC being hauled up. There is something else psychologically which I cannot put a finger on. it is a multi-dimensional problem.

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Re: Pedophilia/Pederasty/Infidelity Crisis in the Roman Catholic Organization

Postby Singha » 31 Aug 2018 17:37

Interesting thought that...a politico economic movement riding under cover of a faith

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Re: Pedophilia/Pederasty/Infidelity Crisis in the Roman Catholic Organization

Postby JE Menon » 31 Aug 2018 19:19

Great post by Neela there!

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Re: Pedophilia/Pederasty/Infidelity Crisis in the Roman Catholic Organization

Postby Neela » 31 Aug 2018 21:32

Throughout history, the Church was either tamed, and when not, it was in overt power.
I cannot put these in clear words...but the Church's strong association with rulers & governments is always present.
Looks like they feed off each other somehow in a weird struggle

- Holy Roman Empire
- Henry VIII & CoE
- CCP simply saying they will appoint the clergy in China.
- Ukraine leaders deciding to form their own Church
- USCIRF


Maybe someone else can see and put this in a meaningful words that can summarize the relationship.

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Re: Pedophilia/Pederasty/Infidelity Crisis in the Roman Catholic Organization

Postby A_Gupta » 01 Sep 2018 09:03

Apart from the Church as an organization, there are lay Christians as regular people. They will want a renewal of the following kind.

https://www.ivpress.com/reconstructing-the-gospel
Reconstructing the Gospel
Finding Freedom from Slaveholder Religion
by Jonathan Wilson-Hartgrove
"I am a man torn in two. And the gospel I inherited is divided."

Jonathan Wilson-Hartgrove grew up in the Bible Belt in the American South as a faithful church-going Christian. But he gradually came to realize that the gospel his Christianity proclaimed was not good news for everybody. The same Christianity that sang, "Amazing grace, how sweet the sound" also perpetuated racial injustice and white supremacy in the name of Jesus. His Christianity, he discovered, was the religion of the slaveholder.

Just as Reconstruction after the Civil War worked to repair a desperately broken society, our compromised Christianity requires a spiritual reconstruction that undoes the injustices of the past. Wilson-Hartgrove traces his journey from the religion of the slaveholder to the Christianity of Christ. Reconstructing the gospel requires facing the pain of the past and present, from racial blindness to systemic abuses of power. Grappling seriously with troubling history and theology, Wilson-Hartgrove recovers the subversiveness of the gospel that sustained the church through centuries of slavery and oppression, from the civil rights era to the Black Lives Matter movement and beyond.

When the gospel is reconstructed, freedom rings for both individuals and society as a whole. Discover how Jesus continues to save us from ourselves and each other, to repair the breach and heal our land.

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Re: Pedophilia/Pederasty/Infidelity Crisis in the Roman Catholic Organization

Postby A_Gupta » 01 Sep 2018 09:11

In the meantime:
https://www.theatlantic.com/internation ... is/569074/
"The Power Play Driving the Latest Vatican Crisis"

When I asked Andrea Tornielli, a veteran Vatican reporter for the Turin daily La Stampa and the website Vatican Insider, about the letter, he saw straight through it. “It’s a political and media maneuver of ecclesiastical power.” It comes, he said, from the same traditionalist faction that about a year ago tried and failed to impeach the pope over his attempting to open the door to allowing remarried divorcées to receive the sacraments. (It’s a complex theological debate, but Francis has prevailed over his critics on the matter.) “Now they’re trying to do it by formally asking for his resignation for a presumed cover-up of Cardinal McCarrick.”

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Re: Pedophilia/Pederasty/Infidelity Crisis in the Roman Catholic Organization

Postby chanakyaa » 02 Sep 2018 08:03

Will they ever learn? Not 30 years ago, just yesterday, and hot off the press. (sorry, not trying to derail much serious subject on the dhaga).

Aretha Franklin bishop sorry after 'groping' Ariana Grande

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Re: Pedophilia/Pederasty/Infidelity Crisis in the Roman Catholic Organization

Postby Deans » 02 Sep 2018 09:50

Neela wrote:I always wonder why powerful,elected leaders with democratic sanction,police and intelligence inputs dont stand up to the church .

My initial guess was that the Church is too strongly embedded into the power structure. So I read up some history.
The colossal & dark shift came when Roman rulers and esp. Constantine yielded to Church.


I believe the Catholic church went through 3 phases. I'd like to elaborate as I think its relevant in understand current State-Church relations.
The first phase, as you suggest, was when Constantine became Christian and made Christianity the state religion. (to unite the empire, not because he agreed with Church doctrine). After the fall of Rome, during the Dark ages in West Europe, there were (for all practical purposes) no organised nation states. Hence, the pope had disproportionate authority and was the only unifying factor for the people of Europe - the only other person they owed allegiance to was their feudal lord. It was the pope who asked kings to wage `holy war' against the Muslims in the holy land.
Since the church was more powerful than any West European state, it also got to make the most money - Kings dying on crusades were expected to bequeath their wealth to the church (guess who encouraged the wealthiest kings to go on a jihad ?). In a (sensational for that time) act of rebellion, Eleanor of Aquitaine chose to marry King Henry of England (which made England a viable state), after her husband died on the crusade, rather than join a convent and `donate' her vast wealth to the church. Speaking of convents, the word nunnery originally meant brothel.

In the Eastern Roman empire (in contrast to the chaos in the west), the Byzantine kings were strong. They expected the head of the church in their countries to defer to them, rather than some pope a long distance away. That was at the root of the Catholic-Orthodox split, not obscure points of theology that the church claims.

In the later middle ages, as the state became stronger, the power of the church diminished. The process started with the failure of the crusades, the threat from Muslim invasion and the plague - all of which the church couldn't prevent. After the 30 years war in Europe, the Church was asked to play no role in politics (no opportunity to acquire state revenues), but the tacit agreement was that the state would not interfere in matters of the church. Later the church was co-opted into empire building by the state - e.g. in Latin America the church preaching suggested that it was ok for the local Indian population to be subjugated by the Spanish, but they should find joy in their misery, as Christ did when the Romans ruled Palestine etc. Churches in Spain still display the wealth `offered' to the church by the grateful Indian population of Latin America.

I think the British had a variant of this strategy, where the Church ran schools (which had no competition). These schools, with the English education and `Sahib has approved' tag were the only way to get a decent job in the service of the Empire.

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Re: Pedophilia/Pederasty/Infidelity Crisis in the Roman Catholic Organization

Postby Singha » 02 Sep 2018 10:07

you are probably right. by 475AD Odoacer gothic sack of rome, the western part was done for. and power remained for next 1000 years in the byzantine christian empire centered on constantinople until it fell to the muslim turks

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_R ... the_Empire
The authority of Julius Nepos as Emperor was accepted not only by Odoacer in Italy, but by the Eastern Empire and Syagrius in Gaul (who had not recognized Romulus Augustulus). Nepos was murdered by his own soldiers in 480, a plot some attribute to Odoacer or the previous, deposed emperor Glycerius,[77] and the Eastern Emperor Zeno chose not to appoint a new western emperor. Zeno, recognizing that no true Roman control remained over the territories legally governed by the Western court, instead chose to abolish the juridical division of the position of Emperor and declared himself the sole emperor of the Roman Empire. Zeno became the first sole Roman emperor since the division after Theodosius I, 85 years prior, and the position would never again be divided. As such, the (eastern) Roman emperors after 480 are the successors of the western ones, albeit only in a juridical sense.[78] These emperors would continue to rule the Roman Empire until the Fall of Constantinople in 1453, nearly a thousand years later.[79] As 480 marks the end of the juridical division of the empire into two separate imperial courts, some historians refer to the death of Nepos and abolition of the Western Empire by Zeno as the end of the Western Roman Empire

the rump roman empire of 500 AD
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remnants
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it was this shatterpoint in the Force that the roman church saw an opportunity and used it to the max.

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Re: Pedophilia/Pederasty/Infidelity Crisis in the Roman Catholic Organization

Postby Singha » 02 Sep 2018 10:15

so looks like various political strongmen thrashed the pope and penned him up in the vatican city....but DID NOT seize the church properties and sources of revenues anywhere. so they lost political control but not the revenue streams.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papal_States

The Papal States, officially the State of the Church (Italian: Stato della Chiesa, Italian pronunciation: [ˈstato della ˈkjɛːza]; Latin: Status Ecclesiasticus;[3] also Dicio Pontificia), were a series of territories in the Italian Peninsula under the direct sovereign rule of the Pope, from the 8th century until 1870. They were among the major states of Italy from roughly the 8th century until the Kingdom of Piedmont-Sardinia unified the Italian Peninsula by conquest in a campaign virtually concluded in 1861 and definitively in 1870. At their zenith, the Papal States covered most of the modern Italian regions of Lazio (which includes Rome), Marche, Umbria and Romagna, and portions of Emilia. These holdings were considered to be a manifestation of the temporal power of the pope, as opposed to his ecclesiastical primacy.

By 1861, much of the Papal States' territory had been conquered by the Kingdom of Italy. Only Lazio, including Rome, remained under the Pope's temporal control. In 1870, the Pope lost Lazio and Rome and had no physical territory at all, except the Baslica of St Peter and the papal residence and related buildings around the Vatican quarter of Rome, which the new Italian state did not occupy militarily. The head of the Italian government, at the time the Italian Fascist leader Benito Mussolini, ended the crisis between unified Italy and the Holy See by negotiating the Lateran Treaty, signed by the two parties in 1929. This recognized the sovereignty of the Holy See over a newly created international territorial entity, the Vatican City State, limited to a token territory.
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Re: Pedophilia/Pederasty/Infidelity Crisis in the Roman Catholic Organization

Postby Singha » 02 Sep 2018 10:19

Odoacer seems to have acted like the maratha confederacy did later - they left the old admin framekwork of the mughals in place but ruled as they wished while still nominally accepting the sultanat in delhi.

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Re: Pedophilia/Pederasty/Infidelity Crisis in the Roman Catholic Organization

Postby Singha » 03 Sep 2018 09:51

CNN
WASHINGTON (CNN)As the embattled Archbishop of Washington, Cardinal Donald Wuerl, addressed the Catholic Church's clergy sexual abuse scandal on Sunday, one Catholic yelled "Shame on you!" while another turned her back on Wuerl in protest.

Wuerl, who faces accusations that he mishandled clergy sexual misconduct while he was a bishop in Pittsburgh, addressed Washington's Annunciation Catholic Church, where the cardinal was installing a new pastor. In a short speech after the Mass, Wuerl asked the 200 or so people in the congregation to forgive his "errors in judgment" and "inadequacies."
Wuerl also urged the parish to pray for and remain loyal to Pope Francis, as "increasingly it is clear that he is the object of considerable animosity."
As Wuerl mentioned the Pope, Brian Garfield, who was sitting in the middle of the church, stood and yelled "Shame on you!" and quickly walked out.
Wuerl noted the interruption but continued speaking.
"Yes, my brothers and sisters, shame," Wuerl said. "I wish I could re-do everything over these 30 years as a bishop and each time get it always right. That's not the case. I do think together, asking for God's mercy, pleading for God's grace, recognizing that we can move into light, I simply ask you to keep me, keep all of those that have been abused, all of those who have suffered, all of the church in your prayers."
Afterward, Garfield, a lifelong Catholic, told CNN that he was upset about Wuerl's response to a damning grand jury report from Pennsylvania, which found that more than 300 Catholic priests had abused more than 1,000 children since 1947 in six dioceses, including Pittsburgh.

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Re: Pedophilia/Pederasty/Infidelity Crisis in the Roman Catholic Organization

Postby Cain Marko » 03 Sep 2018 10:14

Rakesh wrote:JEM: Good posts by you in this thread. Just a few points that I need to expand on.

JE Menon wrote:For believing Christians, especially Catholics, this must be a really tough period. One wonders, eventually, what the outcome of all this will be. If it results in a church that is based on the strength of belief, rather than on the sturdiness of organization, on pure faith rather than raw power, and perhaps a refocusing on the Christianity of Jesus rather than that of Paul, there may be a way for the religion to maintain its flock and its ethos - at least in "the West".

The only outcome is that the Catholic Church (and all institutionalized churches) must be dissolved. Easier said than done, but that is the only way to end the mess. And dissolution of the church is not the only solution. The guilty members *MUST* be convicted under the law. Thirdly, there has to be a sizeable compensation for the people's lives they ruined. They cannot undo what they have done, but compensation is the next best thing - IMVHO - after dissolution and jail time.

Philip wrote:But what is the root cause of such perversion? It is CELIBACY. Celibacy goes against human nature to reproduce.It's in our genes. Christ never asked his disciples to remain celibate. Many of his disciples were married.The comparative lesser numbers of such abuse in the Anglican church is because priests can marry.The RC church has fudged the issue because the financial burden would b*ggar it (pun intended!) .Costs of married accommodation, etc. is impossible in most monasteries and abbeys .It is simply un-affordable if every priest is allowed to marry.

Well said. Celibacy ruined the Church. Sex is as normal as breathing. The issue that the RCC (and some other institutionalized churches) made is with the pleasure aspect of sex. The pleasure was viewed as evil and nothing to do with God. That is complete and utter nonsense and is not taught anywhere in the Bible. Just as you said, it is a human desire to reproduce and see your offspring (and your grandchildren and hopefully, even your great grand-children!). This convoluted thinking that absolving yourself from sex - in the faint hope of coming closer to God, through meditation and prayer - is a load of complete horseshit. That line of thinking is what is ruining the RCC (and other institutionalized churches) that practise celibacy.

[.


Somethings to note... Your wish of ending papacy might come true... This is the last Pope according to a well regarded prophecy of the famous Irish St. Malachy.

Fwiw, I think the early Roman church did not require celibacy. It was made mandatory by Pope Gregory in the 11th century iirc


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Re: Pedophilia/Pederasty/Infidelity Crisis in the Roman Catholic Organization

Postby Philip » 03 Sep 2018 18:56

Roman Catholicism and " Christianity" are not the same but are relatives.

Christ's message was very simple."Love God and your neighbour as yourself".He said this was the essence of all the laws and teachings. Forgive your enemies.Do good to them who would wish to harm you..In many respects his teachings strike a chord with similar teachings of Indian religions like Buddhism and Hinduism.Some scholars say that the missing years of his life were spent in India at Varnasi as well.I saw an Oz documentary on this 30 years ago.

The RC church and the Vatican are Christian in character and style, but are two different entities.The Pope taking his role as head of the church as the sucessor to St.Peter the disciple whom Christ said would be the foundation for his movement, to spread his teachings of love.St.Peter was martyred in Rome, crucified upside down- a cruel joke by the Romans when he expressed his joy at being crucified following in Christ's footsteps.St.Peter's in Rome is supposedly built upon the grave of St.Peter.

The baggage of property and wealth and its temporal authority as a city state like Venice of yore or Spore today
, distinguishes the Vatican from Christianity as a faith espousing riches and the material world ." My kingdom is not of this world" said Christ.This aspect rears its ugly head in other Christian denominations too and other religions, who have received over centuries large gifts from rulers to peasants.Just today a news report had it saying that the courts were demanding to know where the huge gifts of jewellery, etc. given centuries ago by the monarch Krishna Devaraya to Lord Balaji of Tirupati were located, as there were temple inscriptions found by the Min. of Culture that described these gifts in detail.

However, unlike many other faiths which have multiple centres which are relatively independent and do not impose common rules upon believets, all RCs and RC institutions and churches come under the direct authority of Rome and the Pope whose decisions are final and demanding total obedience. The current global sex scandal is rocking the RC church to its foundations and many within the church are questioning hhe Pope for his alleged blind eye to such abuses.Pope Pius the X11in WW2 was accused of turning a blind eye towards Hitler's persecution of the Jews and some unkind historians even labelled him as " Hitler's Pope".RC churches and priests were guilty of helping Nazi criminals to escape using the infamous " Ratline".Pius tried to maintain a balance according to other historians and was a tormented figure because of it.

Pope Francis today is supposedly trying to reform the RC church , but is facing v.stiff opposition from hardline conservatives.His alleged inaction against the sexual
abuse offenders has greatly diminished his authority
and the RC church is in turmoil much to the delight of hard- core Christian fundamentalists, mostly evangelicals in Yanquiland who consider the RC church as being apostate.

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Pedophilia/Pederasty/Infidelity Crisis in the Roman Catholic Organization

Postby Peregrine » 09 Sep 2018 14:40

In a first, Catholic nuns protest ‘sexploitation’
TNN | Updated: Sep 9, 2018, 10:11 IST

KOCHI: For the first time in the Catholic church’s history in Kerala, a group of nuns defied their vows to come out in protest against church authorities and police for attempts to hush up the alleged rape of a nun by Mulakkal of . They sat at Vanchi Square on Saturday for over three hours near the inspector general’s office in Kochi, demanding Mulakkal’s immediate arrest. The protests, organised by the Joint Christian Council — an apex body of independent Christian organisations — included seven nuns, five of them from Missionaries of Jesus congregation to which the rape survivor belongs. Mulakkal, who is from Thrissur, had allegedly abused the nun several times between 2014 and 2016 at St Francis Mission Home and Convent in Kuravilangad, near , where she is based.

‘Neither church nor government or police gave us justice’

The bishop and the nun had worked together at one point in the Jalandhar diocese, which comes under the Latin Catholic church.

The rape survivor had first filed a police complaint on June 27. “The church has not given us justice. Neither have police or the government. We will fight. It was the church which forced us onto the streets,” said Sr Anupama MJ, one of the protesters. The nuns also revealed they are facing threats and that church authorities initially tried to bribe them into silence.

“The church can’t remain silent. We stand together with the nuns till justice is served,” said Indulekha Joseph, an activist with the Kerala Christian Reformation Movement.

Sr Anupama spoke of the attempts to hush up the case. “When we reported it to the nuncio they didn’t even send an acknowledgement. We also reported directly to Rome but even they haven’t responded,” she told TOI.

Responding to Saturday’s development, Kerala Catholic Bishops’ Council spokesperson Father Varghese Vallikkatt said, “If there is any truth in the allegations, there are enough forums within the church to raise complaints.

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Pedophilia/Pederasty/Infidelity Crisis in the Roman Catholic Organization

Postby Peregrine » 11 Sep 2018 16:59

Kerala rape case: Denied help, nun writes letter to Vatican - Jaikrishnan Nair

KOTTAYAM: The nun who alleged sexual abuse by Bishop made shocking revelations about the priests in a letter addressed to Apostolic Nuncio, Giambattista Diquattro, the representative of in India.

In the letter dated September 8, the nun alleged that the priests from her parish, under which her convent comes, stopped coming for holy mass in the community where there are more than twenty inmates, including senior citizens.

“Ever since we filed this case we remain cut off from the mainstream of the church and society. We experience neglect from every side. We feel the is only concerned about the bishops and priests. We would like to know if there is any provision in the Canon Law for justice for nuns and women. If then, why is the church so partial towards us?" she asks.

In the letter, she also says that the priests and sisters in many places count her and other nuns in the convent as the enemy of Catholic church. The silence on the part of the church is causing her further humiliation as well as character assassination, she says.

She adds that she is concerned that the priests and bishops are allowed to spend nights in convents even when they have other facilities like parish houses, pastoral centres, and the like.

"Will the church authority be able to give back what I have lost? I feel the Catholic church is still doubting my truth over the argument as to why I allowed him to abuse me sexually ‘thirteen times’. I had tremendous fear and shame to bring this out into the open. I feared suppression of the congregation and threats to my family members. At the same time I wonder why the church is closing its eyes towards the truth when I have mustered courage to stop him," she says in the letter.

"Being a religious sister who is denied justice from the congregation authority and from the church authority of Latin and Syro Malabar Churches, once again I implore your mercy on my situation. I beg the church authorities to kindly make a speedy inquiry about this case and remove Franco from his responsibilities as the spiritual leader of the diocese," she continues.

In the proceedings of this case so far, it is clearly visible how Bishop Franco is trying to manipulate the investigation with wrong information and with his money, political power and support from other ecclesiastical authorities, she alleges.

"Though Bishop Franco had sexually abused me several times, I could not reveal to my Superior General or to her councillors the full story. I only told them repeatedly that Bishop is taking many disciplinary actions through them just because I resisted to lie down with him. As they failed to understand even the seriousness of these words, I could not tell them more than this," she says.

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