Endgame of NaPakistan: How and what afterwards

CalvinH · Post by **CalvinH** » 10 May 2023 04:11

There was live Youtube broadcast on Adil Raja's channel where they posted the addresses of different core commanders

and confirmed it over whatsapp.

Crowd has put shopping Plaza owned by General Bajwa on fire.

RoyG · Post by **RoyG** » 10 May 2023 04:21

Army will still be puppeteer in Pakistan. Remember what happened in Egypt. The military-civil bureaucracy was intact and continued to rule. Chances are Imran will live and give the appearance that he is the messiah. Pakistani army building him up for a long time.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 10 May 2023 04:22

Cyrano wrote:Its been nearly 9 years and even BIFs haven't been fully neutered yet. Variants like dravidianism, Khalistanis are still rearing their heads. We have had endless discussions and arguments for and against going hard after this menace, we should get to 5T or 10T first ityadi ityadi. May be we are playing a long game but there isn't often an iron hand inside the velvet glove. Whether we like it or not, thats our reality.

Now imagine adding 230 millions of rabid hungry jehadis controlled by a scheming gazwa e hind elite to the mix. That is the cost of adding all that land if we somehow take over Pak in "this is not an era for war" times. What does that do to vote bank calculations? Does the BJP want this? Do the Indian people want this?

Pakis have swallowed the poison pill and have become a visha (not)kanya. Their ruling elite may even have deliberately let it slide into a snake pit as an insurance policy because if they cant have strategic depth, they can at least promise strategic death to anyone who screws them for good.

Well written. People have far too many magical expectations of GOI, including this one.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 10 May 2023 04:24

RoyG wrote:Army will still be puppeteer in Pakistan. Remember what happened in Egypt. The military-civil bureaucracy was intact and continued to rule. Chances are Imran will live and give the appearance that he is the messiah. Pakistani army building him up for a long time.

Yeah this seems all carefully calibrated to ensure the Pak aarmy doesn't open fire on the awaam and worsen the situation. So far very few casualties. This isn't some epochal event, more like a flash in the pan & people are losing their head over it because as we don't impose costs on Pak, any event there gives us schadenfreude. Reminder, we have lost multiple soldiers over the past few months and since 2019 on J&K, we haven't stopped those attacks either.

RoyG · Post by **RoyG** » 10 May 2023 04:41

Pakistan Army is a master at self preservation. It is disciplined and hierarchical and has trump cards like a very powerful intelligence apparatus and nuclear weapons. It will continue to form the backbone of the bureaucracy in Pakistan behind the carefully crafted veneer of civilian leadership. IK and the PTI movement is a PR campaign to give the appearance that the people will be driving change finally in the country. They will initially promise big things and usurp some of the leadership space from military but behind all of it the military bureaucracy will remain untouched and overtime recover the ceded ground.

ArjunPandit · Post by **ArjunPandit** » 10 May 2023 04:42

Muppalla wrote:
ArjunPandit wrote: 5. china: dont think they are gaining anythign right now
If Pakistan unravels, the biggest loser in today's world is China. If GB is taken by India and there is no point for China to keep AksaiChin. China will just unravel too.

unravelling is accompanied with economic collapse.. They're fast filling up the role that up bihar belt played in before British came

RoyG · Post by **RoyG** » 10 May 2023 04:55

ArjunPandit wrote:
Muppalla wrote: If Pakistan unravels, the biggest loser in today's world is China. If GB is taken by India and there is no point for China to keep AksaiChin. China will just unravel too.
unravelling is accompanied with economic collapse.. They're fast filling up the role that up bihar belt played in before British came

Ukraine with a sugar daddy like USA is making life difficult for Russians. The Pakistan army has two, the other being China, both of which will ensure that enough forces and merchandise get pumped into it to keep India at bay.

People forget that USA controls the tap on these high flying Ias/ips bureaucrat children and has a lot of control on the money being stashed in American banks and their property. Trust me, US by itself has a lot of cards.

Pakistan just isn't at that point yet of no return and can still bite and India knows that.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 10 May 2023 05:36

Ok. Carry on.

sanman · Post by **sanman** » 10 May 2023 05:47

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 10 May 2023 05:49

Attack on Core commander's house
- one of the looter took his coat and is waring it
- Lot of women partying

PTI Workers Attack on Corps Commander House

sanman · Post by **sanman** » 10 May 2023 06:26

Can Pak Army survive this kind of disrespect, if it doesn't retaliate forcefully?

I read that some "acting COAS" has made emergency visit to China.

If Pak Army carries out massacre to crush Pakistani public, then China will bear ultimate responsibility for giving quiet nod to it.
Tiananmen Square tradition.

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 10 May 2023 06:33

Paki khakis are being way over-rated by posters here.

Soviets were magnitudes order more viable than these geniuses. They had a stable governance, were a knowledge powerhouse second to none and a truly scary world dominating military power that even China is yet to approach today. Not to mention thousands of very well proofed nukes with some fearsome delivery mechanism. Also an inclination to exert military will across globe. Someone the world actually feared and respected

Their interior ministry had tight control inside borders. Or so we thought.

All that collapsed overnight due to lack of robust political systems and shoddy economic management. Same issue with pakis

Pakis will survive this one too. They have done that before by rioting for food and scrapping for grass. But in what form is upto India to decide. No one else has the interest beyond a point about it, as long as the pakis are still sell-outs to the highest bidder. If India has some clout developed over past two decades this is the time to use it for controlling the form of next governing mechanism over there.

BIF etc is well and good, they will continue to exert pressure. But do realise that US internal polity is at its most fragile since JFK times and this is a good time for India to shrug off any inhibitions.

My wish would be:
1) india calls for free and fair elections, by pressing the world to not coddle a khaki takeover
2) Kaptan comes to power

RoyG · Post by **RoyG** » 10 May 2023 09:38

hnair wrote:Paki khakis are being way over-rated by posters here.

Soviets were magnitudes order more viable than these geniuses. They had a stable governance, were a knowledge powerhouse second to none and a truly scary world dominating military power that even China is yet to approach today. Not to mention thousands of very well proofed nukes with some fearsome delivery mechanism. Also an inclination to exert military will across globe. Someone the world actually feared and respected

Their interior ministry had tight control inside borders. Or so we thought.

All that collapsed overnight due to lack of robust political systems and shoddy economic management. Same issue with pakis

Pakis will survive this one too. They have done that before by rioting for food and scrapping for grass. But in what form is upto India to decide. No one else has the interest beyond a point about it, as long as the pakis are still sell-outs to the highest bidder. If India has some clout developed over past two decades this is the time to use it for controlling the form of next governing mechanism over there.

BIF etc is well and good, they will continue to exert pressure. But do realise that US internal polity is at its most fragile since JFK times and this is a good time for India to shrug off any inhibitions.

My wish would be:
1) india calls for free and fair elections, by pressing the world to not coddle a khaki takeover
2) Kaptan comes to power

Pak khaki is over-rated but then you claim they will survive this too.

Pakistan is a smaller country and the dynamics are diff. They have two sugar daddy's.

If Somalia, Venezuela and all these other shit countries can do it, why can't they?

RoyG · Post by **RoyG** » 10 May 2023 10:01

sanman wrote:Can Pak Army survive this kind of disrespect, if it doesn't retaliate forcefully?

I read that some "acting COAS" has made emergency visit to China.

If Pak Army carries out massacre to crush Pakistani public, then China will bear ultimate responsibility for giving quiet nod to it.
Tiananmen Square tradition.

PA could care less about internet posters and political commentators shouting disrespect. Pak Army is the only functioning institution with nuclear weapons, intelligence apparatus, and gun. These protestors may torch a few properties and shit on a few statues. So what? These are just pinpricks.

This is IKs moment. This is what he has been groomed for by PA. Greatest Paki messiah. Greater than the profit muhammed pbuh.

Shaktimaan · Post by **Shaktimaan** » 10 May 2023 10:28

I do not believe the Pak Army is playing any Chankian 4D chess moves.They are an occupying garrison in the middle of a sea of impoverished Abduls. The army numbers less than 700,000. For this relatively small force to remain in power they need to project themselves are invincible and inevitable. The day their crore commadu's house is looted and burned, they lose this image.

So I believe this incident (storming of Cantonments, breaching of GHQ) was due to some other reason. Either the garrison is afraid to provoke the Abduls for fear of lamp post therapy, or the lower level officers/ NCOs / jawans are not willing to fire on the awaam. Either way, a state of mutiny exists in the Army at the moment.

Let's see how today plays out to get more data points from the situation. For example, there is no chatter about the nukes on Paki Twitter. Neither is there anything about possible Indian intervention or asking China for help.

Due to the lack of a strong response from the Pak Army the violence may fizzle out today I think, replaced by the usual dharna drama of blocking roads.

RoyG · Post by **RoyG** » 10 May 2023 10:33

Shaktimaan wrote:I do not believe the Pak Army is playing any Chankian 4D chess moves.They are an occupying garrison in the middle of a sea of impoverished Abduls. The army numbers less than 700,000. For this relatively small force to remain in power they need to project themselves are invincible and inevitable. The day their crore commadu's house is looted and burned, they lose this image.

So I believe this incident (storming of Cantonments, breaching of GHQ) was due to some other reason. Either the garrison is afraid to provoke the Abduls for fear of lamp post therapy, or the lower level officers/ NCOs / jawans are not willing to fire on the awaam. Either way, a state of mutiny exists in the Army at the moment.

Let's see how today plays out to get more data points from the situation. For example, there is no chatter about the nukes on Paki Twitter. Neither is there anything about possible Indian intervention or asking China for help.

Due to the lack of a strong response from the Pak Army the violence may fizzle out today I think, replaced by the usual dharna drama of blocking roads.

You have to play chankian chess to occupy a garrison in the sea of impoverished for this long...

Dilbu · Post by **Dilbu** » 10 May 2023 10:40

This incident is just another one in the long chain of events that are slowly pushing the half dead carcass of a nation towards the edge. TSP will survive again but each new crisis whether political or economic is worse than the last one and this one has dented the invincible image of ‘the establishment’. This is not a minor damage if we consider how this image was holding together many things including echandee. There are no positives for TSP out of this.

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 10 May 2023 10:44

RoyG, keep the snark level down. Thanks

Cyrano · Post by **Cyrano** » 10 May 2023 11:05

Bhai log, why this urge to predict the future? No one is expecting anyone here to possess a crystal ball or cre commadus mobile no. That soon becomes tu tu main main game. Let's just grab some popcorn and comment on the happenings and possible scenarios from India perspective.

Cyrano · Post by **Cyrano** » 10 May 2023 11:25

My feeling is that yesterday's events took PA by surprise by their simultaneous geo spread and by the level of popular violent uprising. They are caught between dousing these flames by firing on it or allowing it to burn expecting it to run out of fuel but that means not containing it's spread.
Looks like PTI had this prepared for a long time, but how long can they sustain it? Who is giving directions? Forces raided the house of Usman Dar, imran's advisor but couldn't find him. Without leadership to stoke and channel mob ire, the army can gain upper hand since they always have directing leadership.
Mullahs have been surprised as well? Haven't seen them give calls one way or other. If the unrest continues and keeps scaling up until Friday and then the mullahs cast their lot with awaam and declare PA as haraam then we will have a real civil war situation.

g.sarkar · Post by **g.sarkar** » 10 May 2023 11:48

https://www.dawn.com/news/1751793/pygmy ... ans-arrest
Pygmy state: Political pundits, lawyers weigh on Imran Khan’s arrest
"There are days which serve as a stark reminder of how little Pakistan has progressed. Today is one of them," says lawyer Rida Hosain.
Areesha Rehan, May 9, 2023
In a shocking turn of events, Pakisan-Tehreek-i-Insaaf (PTI) chief Imran Khan was arrested by paramilitary Rangers from the Islamabad High Court (IHC) premises, where he had arrived for hearings in two cases on Tuesday.
Following the arrest, Islamabad police released a statement quoting Inspector General (IG) Akbar Nasir Khan as saying that Imran had been arrested in relation to the Al Qadir Trust case, which alleges that the PTI chief and his wife obtained billions of rupees from a real estate firm for legalising Rs50 billion that was identified and returned to the country by the UK during the previous PTI government.
Meanwhile, the party has claimed that Imran was tortured at the time of arrest, following which protests have erupted across the country.
Dawn.com reached out to political pundits, journalists and lawyers to weigh in on the manner of the arrest and its implications.
Bad optics
Lawyer Abdul Moiz Jaferii said that “the biggest problem with today’s arrest is the optics. In response to Imran Khan naming an army officer as part of a conspiracy to harm him, we see a coordinated parroting of vilification from the government.
“The next day, we see a paramilitary force which does not legally have any power to arrest, lay siege to the filing section of the high court and ham-fistedly taking Imran Khan into custody. We see a handpicked NAB chairman’s arrest order for a case which has somehow made its way ahead of the dozens of other cases against politicians.
“All of this makes for miserable optics: if you try to see the forest for the trees, you will clearly see the workings of a Pygmy state; beholden to unelected overlords. This man is a former prime minister and is, according to every poll, the most popular politician in the country. The violent and alarming images surrounding Imran Khan’s arrest would be more familiar in an occupied territory. But perhaps that’s exactly what we are as a country.”
Lawyer Rida Hosain echoed Jaferii’s thoughts. “The manner in which Imran Khan has been arrested is distressing for every believer in the rule of law. Nothing justifies the disproportionate manner in which the arrest was carried out. Hundreds of Rangers [personnel] assembled, windows were broken, and a former prime minister was dragged out of court premises to secure an arrest.”
She too questioned the role of the Rangers and whether this manner of arrest could even be considered legal. “The government must clarify whether it called the Rangers in aid of civil power. Even so, there is no justification for scores of Rangers [personnel] in uniform to be sent to carry out the arrest.”
For his part, Journalist Zarrar Khuhro tweeted a stark warning for those who were in favour of such an arrest. “Politicians or any civilians who stand for this should know that, as is always the case, those actually in power can and will turn on you too. Always have, always will. Ultimately all civilian powers must unite on basic principles, as impossible as that seems. If not, be assured you will all sink sooner or later.”
He went on to term the arrest “pure blind rage and vengeance”, pointing out the ‘absurdity’ of calling in the Rangers.
.....
Gautam

Shaktimaan · Post by **Shaktimaan** » 10 May 2023 14:57

Pak Army has been officially deployed in PakJab. Of course they are not a police force and do not have non-lethal ways of stopping protesters. Now what?

Venkarl · Post by **Venkarl** » 10 May 2023 15:10

ramana wrote:
Muppalla wrote: ...If GB is taken by India.....
If India gets GB and Aksai Chin....

Statistically speaking, Pre-Indira/Rajiv/PVN - INC exhibited show of force & strong willed diplomacy coupled with macho leadership of IA for completing the Indian Union which we see today.

Patel's - Junagadh, Portugese & French enclaves & Hyderabad state accession into India
GL Nanda's - Mizo suppression (IAF conducted air strikes)
IG's - Nagas suppression, Sikkim arm twisting & 1971 Paki Split
For that matter even Rajiv had the gall to go expeditiously into SL with IPKF <facepalm>

All the above were a proactive/preemptive actions taken by the respective PMs.

Currently, We have a leadership with a mindset which is reactive and not proactive (Kargil, Ops Hot Pursuit, Surgical Strike & Bandar)
BJP doesn't have that Chanakyan mindset to game-plan to inch towards reintegration of lost territories of Bharat.

To get back GB & Aksai chin, we need a shrewd and sharp political will at the centre which is absent in BJP.
BJP always uses Constitutional or Judicial route to push its manifesto (Read Art 370 and Sri Ram Mandir)
It doesn't have that spirit to accomplish natsec level objectives by circumventing constitution/judiciary if necessary and yet prevail over opposition/BIF entities.

For god's sake CBN & YSR showed their iron will in suppressing Naxals at state level...BJP is still struggling with Naxal issue despite being at centre with full power to act against anti state entities...9 years in centre and still this naxal issues haunts us.

Everyone complaint about BJP is it polarised society, being anti jehadi and anti conversion etc....
but my complain about BJP leadership is that it didn't live up to nationalist aspirations yet.
BJP should stop being soft/emotional/sentimental/advertising/behind-the-curtain acts and get shrewd, cunning and hit the enemy head on boldly....only then we can get our POK,G&B back and then think of Aksai Chin.

At least in 2024, BJP should show some results as the whole country will be behind it with more majority

I am aware that this is not a thread to rant and I'm sorry I couldn't resist

Just my 2 cents.

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 10 May 2023 15:49

A few predictable things:

1) Indian liberals will scream that a stable Pakistan is in India's interest
2) Op-Ed comparing what's happening in $hitistan to Manipur
3) Due to G20 & the unrest, PM/RM decide not to carry out surgical strikes against them for killing our braves

I hope prediction #3 becomes false

Surgical strike(s) now will light a torch to the anarchist fuel over there. Show the Paki Army for the imbeciles they are and stretch them on multiple fronts internally and externally. Show them no mercy.

SRajesh · Post by **SRajesh** » 10 May 2023 16:23

I feel all this is internal fued being played out in the open
The PA is split in two factors : The Khattarpanthi : Gen Derriere mein Goli(so lets rename him Gen DmG) faction and the Pajwa faction
The corps Kammandu's are also split but each acting coy and Chupha Rustom waiting to see who gets the upper hand.
Even though Gen DmG has retired still commands quite a bit of respect not just in Pak but also across the Durand Line.
Lets see who wins
If its DmG then expect more bombing and suicide attacks
Pajwa factions then insaniyat ke wasthe madad karo request!

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 10 May 2023 19:53

Cyrano wrote:Bhai log, why this urge to predict the future? No one is expecting anyone here to possess a crystal ball or cre commadus mobile no. That soon becomes tu tu main main game. Let's just grab some popcorn and comment on the happenings and possible scenarios from India perspective.

This thread is for predictions as the title says.
some are on their own Don Quixote crusade.
Admin already cautioned.
We don't know how to debate.
Fall for the shadow and mistake it for the substance.

CalvinH · Post by **CalvinH** » 10 May 2023 21:14

Rsatchi wrote:I feel all this is internal fued being played out in the open
The PA is split in two factors : The Khattarpanthi : Gen Derriere mein Goli(so lets rename him Gen DmG) faction and the Pajwa faction
The corps Kammandu's are also split but each acting coy and Chupha Rustom waiting to see who gets the upper hand.
Even though Gen DmG has retired still commands quite a bit of respect not just in Pak but also across the Durand Line.
Lets see who wins
If its DmG then expect more bombing and suicide attacks
Pajwa factions then insaniyat ke wasthe madad karo request!

Sir Pajwa and DmG are one and the same onleee... its between DmG and Hafiz Syed Munir now. Pajwa has been retired hurt.

sanman · Post by **sanman** » 10 May 2023 23:59

Prem Kumar wrote:A few predictable things:

1) Indian liberals will scream that a stable Pakistan is in India's interest
2) Op-Ed comparing what's happening in $hitistan to Manipur
3) Due to G20 & the unrest, PM/RM decide not to carry out surgical strikes against them for killing our braves

I hope prediction #3 becomes false

Surgical strike(s) now will light a torch to the anarchist fuel over there. Show the Paki Army for the imbeciles they are and stretch them on multiple fronts internally and externally. Show them no mercy.

No, I disagree. India should not interrupt Pakistan's attempt to burn itself down.
Pak Army will use any Indian attack to rally people to its side.

If anything, just carry out supari hits against various mid-level officers, and let these be drowned out by the general anti-army protest din.

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 11 May 2023 00:19

Shaktimaan wrote:Pak Army has been officially deployed in PakJab. Of course they are not a police force and do not have non-lethal ways of stopping protesters. Now what?

But. But. Didn't they say a few weeks ago that they don't have the capacity to provide security for elections? How come they are busy when the job is to provide security for elections but come running when the job is to shoot Abduls on the street.

I think the army is being chunkian. They've allowed some riots to happen so it can be used as a pretext to ban PTI or Dimran.

By the way, did you read about the case that got Kaptaan arrested. It was something something Malik Riaz bribed. But nobody wants to name Malik Riaz who I am sure is the most powerful person in Pakistan, much more powerful than the chief of army staff.

See this thread
https://twitter.com/KamranShafi46/statu ... 5417747456

boasting 16 Generals and Air Marshals and Admirals in his stable who wait around to pour tea for him and his guests and carry his briefcase and files! AND gifting expensive Harley Davidson motorcycles to high falutin' 'journalists' and 10 Crore villas each, to them AND their 'journalist' wives..Just now heard from a friend that someone saw his friend, a General and
@MalikRiaz_
at Islamabad Airport, the General walking behind him carrying his briefcase. The next day the man asked the General why he was carrying the briefcase having been a senior officer. 'If you pay me what Riaz pays me, I'll carry your briefcase too'

Essentially the whole setup is just a land scam. Army wants land. A bunch of Abduls who look the other way. And a political setup that doesn't upset the apple cart.

https://www.geo.tv/latest/486390-army-r ... te-farming

Earlier this year, the Pakistan army requested the Punjab government for one million acres of state land in the Cholistan area for corporate agricultural farming, court documents reveal..the military proposes in the letter the “immediate” release of 10,000 to 15,000 acres of irrigated land for a pilot project.

Ramu · Post by **Ramu** » 11 May 2023 00:36

Reminds me of South Park- cripple fight. Its too early to get in and say "break it up boys"

Venkarl · Post by **Venkarl** » 11 May 2023 10:24

In all this Chaos, I am surprised Talibans haven’t made any newsworthy moves onto Durand line. And where are BLA and TTP? Why aren’t they taking advantage of this chaos?

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 11 May 2023 11:26

Venkarl wrote:In all this Chaos, I am surprised Talibans haven’t made any newsworthy moves onto Durand line. And where are BLA and TTP? Why aren’t they taking advantage of this chaos?

@Venkarl gaaru, I am 400% hopefool eet eej cum-eeng.

Cyrano · Post by **Cyrano** » 11 May 2023 14:55

They also, somewhat like India, are waiting and watching for the infighting to do its weakening job and then decide what moves to make. Popcorn for all.

SRajesh · Post by **SRajesh** » 11 May 2023 15:53

Venkarl wrote: And where are BLA and TTP?

Taliban pilots are ready in the cockpit for 'Ejaculation'

Buss aap thoda sabar karo ney

Venkarl · Post by **Venkarl** » 11 May 2023 17:39

Loha galam hain jee..ab nahi toh kab?
PA will comeback strong on these civvies in few days.
Taliban, TTP and BLA will loose this smoke screen to achieve their objectives in a week or 2.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 12 May 2023 07:20

CalvinH wrote:There was live Youtube broadcast on Adil Raja's channel where they posted the addresses of different core commanders and confirmed it over whatsapp.

Crowd has put shopping Plaza owned by General Bajwa on fire.

There looks like a horizontal split among the Lt Gens. Earlier, it was US and Cheen. Now it's Sharif and Imran. Add Sunni and Shia. Add Ashraf and Ajlaf. We need to put the 9 Lt Gen in the Venn Diagram.. Yes, some will be in multiple Venns.

sanman · Post by **sanman** » 12 May 2023 07:29

Now that Pak Supreme Court has quashed Khan's arrest, the rest of the establishment are opposing the court, including not just Army but also politicians from PPP & PML

So what's the next step? Will Court now be overthrown? Will Army do a coup? Or will elections still happen on schedule?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 12 May 2023 07:32

CalvinH do you have the names?

sanman · Post by **sanman** » 12 May 2023 08:00

I don't think even Audrey Truschke can put a positive spin on Aurangzeb's rant.

Shaktimaan · Post by **Shaktimaan** » 12 May 2023 08:24

I've been thinking of this for the last 2 months ever since Im the Dim started naming Army names directly in public.

Imran is serving a heady cocktail of Islam, patriotism, and Messiah complex. Now he has added civilian supremacy to the mix. The Paki awaam is eating out of his hands. Since Islamic society began with a single prophet, their societies are vulnerable to the Messiah complex : a single magical person who will come and solve all their problems.

Imran is on the loose now and more powerful than ever. His people even symbolically stormed GHQ!

For the past 75 years, the Pak Army has been haunting all civilian governments with the constant threat of coups.

Now I think if the reverse will come true. Imran will now break the army into smaller, more manageable chunks by attacking their source of power : their internal discipline and the rank structure. Imran will conspire with the lower level, more Islamist army officers against the higher level whisky swillers. Nobody will be able to trust each other and the crore commandus will then try to form their own little empires in their Corps areas instead of sitting in a single room to threaten the civilian govt.