West Bengal - news and strategy thread

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Rahul M
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Re: 2019 General Elections : Results Discussion

Postby Rahul M » 29 May 2019 00:09

meanwhile enjoy this epic trolling of MB as she comes out of Raj Bhawan.
https://twitter.com/mvmeet/status/1133422298000547840

Her facial expression is a sight to behold as people are shouting Jai Sriram to her. :rotfl: :rotfl:
I don't know if bjp was directly up to this, but if they were, kudos to them. It directly feeds into her paranoia and would lead to her making more mistakes.

==========

On Rammohan Roy, his reformist credential is beyond doubt but he also did a few iffy things, including falsely manipulate hindu scripts. There is also little doubt that he was strongly influence by xtianity and brahmo samaj was an amalgamation of xtian ethos within a nominally sanatan dharma framework. For the brit missionaries it was little more than a version of xtianity the natives could accept. the overtly xtian tendencies were later mitigated due to the influence of no less a person than Ramkrishna Paramhansa on then Brahmo Samaj leader Keshabchandra Sen. As the Brahmo Samaj's reformist plank, like women's education, no child marriage and no dowry came to be accepted by the wider hindu society, the ideology slowly became irrelevant.

It does not do bengal any credit to put our icons on a pedestal. that way comes hubris and with hubris comes whatever state bengal is in now.

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Re: 2019 General Elections : Results Discussion

Postby sudeepj » 29 May 2019 01:56

devesh wrote:
Picklu wrote:A totally unnecessary blue on blue on twitter on Raja Rammohan Roy.

There were 9 loksabha seats in WB on 7th phase out of which Dumdum and Kolkata Uttar were winnable given the wave but we lost after the Vidyasagar statue incident and the inept handling of the same by BJP.

Today all Bengali newspaper has taken up the issue and spread if far and wide making BJP enemy of Bengali culture :(



Problem is some of the yahoo non-bengalis seem to have an axe to grind against Bengalis for their perceived "leftism". Bengals trajectory since partition is similar to Punjab's in many ways and Punjab even now voted heavily to INC despite BJP wave in neighborhood.

Bit Punjab doesnt get the ethnic/chauvinist hatred directed against it, which Bengal does.


The current Ram Mohan Roy topic, I suspect, is also raised by the same elements.

On the flip side is somebody like Saswati Sarkar who pretty much has a chip on her shoulder the size of Mt. Everest. But nothing that Sarkar says even comes close to the poison that Khalistanis spread.

After watching a lot of these interactions on twitter, my instinct is that some people really are very insecure or feel threatened by Bengal turning saffron.


The Bengali Rai Bahaduri class has done a very good job of convincing an avg. middle Bengali thinking class person, that any questioning of any Bengali icon is an attack on Bengali culture and pride. No matter, that the only Bengali icons that the Rai Bahaduri class has annointed thus are carefully selected to further the centuries old cultural war leading to an ultimate westernization and christianization of India.

Why is the widespread attack on Bankim Chandra Chatterjee, by calling him or his novels communal not considered an attack on Bengal/Bengalis? Why is the widespread attack on Subhash Bose, by calling him a war criminal etc. not considered an attack on Bengal/Bengalis? Why are the contributions of Shyama Prasad Mukherjee denied their place in our nations history? Why is the sidelining of Pranab da not a chauvinistic act? How many in India know today of Bagha Jatin?

The reason is simple.. The obvious reason is ofcourse 'programming' of individuals to react a certain way.. Another important reason is, the left attacks not so much by attacking directly, but by ignoring the contributions of these other people. Left attacks by establishing hegemony in the myth making departments of culture and then erasing personas out of history! Were it not for the resistance by nationalistic forces, no one would remember Bankim, Subhash Bose, Shyama Prasad Mukherjee by the year 2000, such was the hegemonic power of the left.

From a very high level perspective, Bengal and Punjab have suffered deeply from the attacks of the Islamist and Colonialist forces on India. Long after the last red coat left the shores of India, the assault by the colonialist forces continued. Both Bengal and Punjab saw brutal COIN campaigns, supposedly by nationalist leaders! And as a result of this centuries old assault, there is a kind of stockholm syndrome among the intellectual class there. You see Punjabis making nice with Islamists, even as the Islamists commit genocide on Punjab! And you see Bengalis making nice with colonialists, even though the colonialists committed numerous genocides on Bengal, the last one, not 80 years old.

We must be kind, but firm, with Bengali and Punjabi intellectuals.. Their communities have suffered the most. And if we cant be kind to our own, rest assured, the treatment that the Islamists and the colonialists meet out to us will be much much worse.

Finally, there is indeed a yahoo class masquerading as Hindutva-wadins. If they had any association at all with the RSS, rest assured, their speech would be a lot more restrained and thoughtful. Literally, the first thing taught to you in a shakha is that you must address your peers, even your younger peers, as Ji. There is no room for pointless ego battles and aggression in the Sangh. There are also numerous false flag ops these days.. You never know, that the ultra rw handle is really ultra rw, or is merely a Congressi plant.
Last edited by sudeepj on 29 May 2019 02:13, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: West Bengal - news and strategy thread

Postby ramana » 29 May 2019 03:35

Picklu I think you see too much into the Vidyasagar statue demolition. Average Bengali knows its #Jihadidi work.
BJP getting 19 seats is quite good.
If violence had been curbed in the first two phases the tally would be more.
And the story is not over yet.
Jihadidi has her own investigation into the incident.
Meanwhile there is NIA investigation country wide into EVM destruction.
And EC could file charges at all politicians who tried to undermine the election process by casting unfounded doubts on process.

Most likely there will be Cabinet inductions from the 19 brave stalwarts.
They deserve recognition for singeing Jihadidi in Bengal.

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Re: 2019 General Elections : Results Discussion

Postby Sumair » 29 May 2019 06:49

devesh wrote:
Picklu wrote:A totally unnecessary blue on blue on twitter on Raja Rammohan Roy.

There were 9 loksabha seats in WB on 7th phase out of which Dumdum and Kolkata Uttar were winnable given the wave but we lost after the Vidyasagar statue incident and the inept handling of the same by BJP.

Today all Bengali newspaper has taken up the issue and spread if far and wide making BJP enemy of Bengali culture :(



Problem is some of the yahoo non-bengalis seem to have an axe to grind against Bengalis for their perceived "leftism". Bengals trajectory since partition is similar to Punjab's in many ways and Punjab even now voted heavily to INC despite BJP wave in neighborhood.

Bit Punjab doesnt get the ethnic/chauvinist hatred directed against it, which Bengal does.

The current Ram Mohan Roy topic, I suspect, is also raised by the same elements.

On the flip side is somebody like Saswati Sarkar who pretty much has a chip on her shoulder the size of Mt. Everest. But nothing that Sarkar says even comes close to the poison that Khalistanis spread.

After watching a lot of these interactions on twitter, my instinct is that some people really are very insecure or feel threatened by Bengal turning saffron.

Punjab’s vote for INC is not for some deep rooted love for Congress, but is more of an anti Akali vote. Punjab has been yearning for a third alternative; thus the massive support for AAP in the 2014 Lok Sabah elections. Sidhu could have capitalize on this sentiment by forming his own party but for whatever reasons he chose to align with congress and in process destroy is equity with Punjab’s populace. If BJP is somehow able to wean itself away from Akalis and bring forth a strong local leader with incorruptible image, then Punjab is there for the taking.

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Re: West Bengal - news and strategy thread

Postby ramana » 29 May 2019 07:21

Ok. Here is analysis on Bengal vote pattern:
----
Lokniti-CSDS survey analysis:

40% of the traditional Left voters shifted to the BJP in West Bengal.

32% of traditional Congress voters moved to the BJP.

Overall 57% of Hindus of West Bengal voted for BJP. That's a massive Hindu consolidation by Amit Shah in no-time!

Within that - 57% of Upper Castes, 65% of OBCs, 61% of SCs and 58% of STs voted for BJP.

The only Bengali community where more than 50% voted for TMC was Muslims (70%).

Among 18-35 age group, BJP got a lead of 6% over TMC.
---
No wonder Mamata targeted BJP all the time, pretty much ignoring Yechury and Rahul this time. She knows who is conquering the minds of Bengali Hindus, in particular the younger minds.

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Re: West Bengal - news and strategy thread

Postby Pathik » 29 May 2019 10:46

Kati wrote:
aylamrin wrote:
He is no Dilip Ghosh / Babul Supriyo.

He has a kid and family. It would be difficult for him to venture out.


Saurav Ganguly is too soft for politics. Moreover, he is hand in glove with didi.
However, this election has shown the leadership qualities within the Bengal BJP. A lot of credit must go to Dilip Ghosh (state BJP prez) for his aggressive attitude. He did help the party's rise. But before him it was Rahul Sinha. But both of these two men, who do not see eye to eye, lack sophistication, but did a lot for the party. Here comes then two other mahila leaders - current RS member Ms. Rupa Ganguly (past BJP Mahila Morcha's head) and Ms. Locket Chatterjee (current head of Mahila Morcha). Both are/were celebrities, have mass appeals, very good orators, have fighting skills, and above all - very sophisticated. Both can work in rural as well as in urban areas.

Sourav Ganguly - Hes already got the leadership skills to steer the ship out of troubled waters. He may not be hand in glove with MB as he hasnt portrayed any direct anti BJP symptoms. Nobody in WB for that matter would have taken on Didi before the election results.

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Re: 2019 General Elections : Results Discussion

Postby Manish_Sharma » 29 May 2019 11:12

Rahul M wrote:
On Rammohan Roy, his reformist credential is beyond doubt but he also did a few iffy things, including falsely manipulate hindu scripts. There is also little doubt that he was strongly influence by xtianity and brahmo samaj was an amalgamation of xtian ethos within a nominally sanatan dharma framework......


Rajiv Malhotra:
RAM MOHAN ROY wrote following letter to British Prime Minister William Pitt asking to replace Sanskrit with Anglicized education in India. This was 12 years before Macaulay's campaign. Roy did many good things also. But what do you think of this action? https://t.co/fysXXHxxxY

https://twitter.com/RajivMessage/status ... 26528?s=19


His Excellency the Right Hon'ble WILLIAM PITT,
LORD AMHERST

MY LORD,
I HUMBLY reluctant as the natives of India are to obtrude upon the
notice of Government the sentiments they entertain on any public
measure, there are circumstances when silence would be carrying this
respectful feeling to culpable excess.

The present Rulers of India, coming from a distance of many thousand
miles to govern a people whose language, literature, manners, customs,
and ideas are almost entirely new and strange to them, cannot easily
become so intimately acquainted with their real circumstances, as the
natives of the country are themselves. We should therefore be guilty
of a gross dereliction of duty to ourselves, and afford our Rulers
just ground of complaint at our apathy, did we omit on occasions of
importance like the present to supply them with such accurate
information as might enable them to devise and adopt measures
calculated to be beneficial to the country, and thus second by our
local knowledge and experience their declared benevolent intentions
for its improvement.

The establishment of a new Sangscrit School in Calcutta evinces the
laudable desire of Government to improve the Natives of India by
Education, - blessing for which they must ever be grateful; and every
well wisher of the human race must be desirous that the efforts made
to promote it should be guided by the most enlightened principles, so
that the stream of intelligence may flow into the most useful
channels.
When this Seminary of learning was proposed, we understood that the
Government in England had ordered a considerable sum of money to be
annually devoted to the instruction of its Indian Subjects. We were
filled with sanguine hopes that this sum would be laid out in
employing European Gentlemen of talents and education to instruct the
natives of India in Mathematics, Natural Philosophy, Chemistry,
Anatomy and other useful Sciences, which the Nations of Europe have
carried to a degree of perfection that has raised them above the
inhabitants of other parts of the world.

While we looked forward with pleasing hope to the dawn of knowledge
thus promised to the rising generation, our hearts were filled with
mingled feelings of delight and gratitude; we already offered up
thanks to Providence for inspiring the most generous and enlightened
of the Nations of the West with the glorious ambition of planting in
Asia the Arts and Sciences of modern Europe.

We now find that the Government are establishing a Sangscrit school
under Hindoo Pundits to impart such knowledge as is already current in
India. This Seminary (similar in character to those which existed in
Europe before the time of Lord Bacon) can only be expected to load the
minds of youth with grammatical niceties and metaphysical distinctions
of little or no practicable use to the possessors or to society. The
pupils will there acquire what was known two thousand years ago, with
the addition of vain and empty subtilties since produced by
speculative men, such as is already commonly taught in all parts of
India.

The Sangscrit language, so difficult that almost a life time is
necessary for its perfect acquisition, is well known to have been for
ages a lamentable check on the diffusion of knowledge; and the
learning concealed under this almost impervious veil is far from
sufficient to reward the labour of acquiring it. But if it were
thought necessary to perpetuate this language for the sake of the
portion of the valuable information it contains, this might be much
more easily accomplished by other means than the establishment of a
new Sangscrit College; for there have been always and are now numerous
professors of Sangscrit in the different parts of the country, engaged
in teaching this language as well as the other branches of literature
which are to be the object of the new Seminary. Therefore their more
diligent cultivation, if desirable, would be effectually promoted by
holding out premiums and granting certain allowances to those most
eminent Professors, who have already undertaken on their own account
to teach them, and would by such rewards be stimulated to still
greater exertions.

From these considerations, as the sum set apart for the instruction of
the Natives of India was intended by the Government in England,  for
the improvement of its Indian subjects, I beg leave to state, with due
deference to your Lordship's exalted situation, that if the plan now
adopted be followed, it will completely defeat the object proposed;
since no improvement can be expected from inducing young men to
consume a dozen of years of the most valuable period of their lives in
acquiring the niceties of the Byakurun of Sangscrit Grammar. For
instance, in learning to discuss such points as the following: Khad
signifying to eat, Khaduti, he or she or it eats. Query, whether does
the word Khaduti, taken as a whole, convey the meaning he, she, or it
eats, or are separate parts of this meaning conveyed by distinct
portions of the word? As if in the English language it were asked, how
much meaning is there in the eat, how much in the s? and is the whole
meaning of the word conveyed by those two portions of it distinctly,
or by them taken jointly?

Neither can much improvement arise from such speculations as the
following, which are the themes suggested by the Vedant:- In what
manner is the soul absorbed into the deity? What relation does it bear
to the divine essence? Nor will youths be fitted to be better members
of society by the Vedantic doctrines, which teach them to believe that
all visible things have no real existence; that as father, brother,
etc., have no actual entirety; they consequently deserve no real
affection, and therefore the sooner we escape from them and leave the
world the better. Again, no essential benefit can be derived by the
student of the Meemangsa from knowing what it is that makes the killer
of a goat sinless on pronouncing certain passages of the Veds, and
what is the real nature and operative influence of passages of the
Ved, etc.

Again the student of the Nyaya Shastra cannot be said to have improved
his mind after he has learned from it into how marry ideal classes the
objects in the Universe are divided, and what speculative relation the
soul bears to the body, the body to the soul, the eye to the
ear,
        In order to enable your Lordship to appreciate the utility of
encouraging such imaginary learning as above characterised, I beg your
Lordship will be pleased to compare the state of science and
literature in England before the time of Lord Bacon, with the progress
of knowledge made since he wrote.
[Sanskrit education is best calculated to keep the Indian mind in the
bondage of darkness]If it had been intended to keep the British nation
in ignorance of real knowledge, the Baconian philosophy would not have
been allowed to displace the system of the schoolmen, which was the
best calculated to perpetuate ignorance. In the same manner the
Sangscrit system of education would be the best calculated to keep
this country in darkness, if such had been the policy of the British
Legislature. But as the improvement of the native population is the
object of the Government, it consequently ought to promote a more
liberal and enlightened system of instruction, embracing mathematics,
natural philosophy, chemistry and anatomy, with other useful sciences
which may be accomplished with the sum proposed by employing a few
gentlemen of talents and learning educated in Europe, and providing a
college furnished with the necessary books, instruments and other
apparatus.
In representing this subject to your Lordship I conceive myself
discharging a solemn duty which I owe to my countrymen and also to
that enlightened Sovereign and Legislature which have extended their
benevolent cares to this distant land actuated by a desire to improve
its inhabitants, and I therefore humbly trust you will excuse the
liberty I have taken in thus expressing my sentiments to your
Lordship.
I have, etc.,
RAMMOHUN ROY,
 CALCUTTA; The 11th December 1823

Last edited by Manish_Sharma on 29 May 2019 11:13, edited 1 time in total.

Picklu
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Re: 2019 General Elections : Results Discussion

Postby Picklu » 29 May 2019 11:44

sudeepj wrote:
devesh wrote:

Problem is some of the yahoo non-bengalis seem to have an axe to grind against Bengalis for their perceived "leftism". Bengals trajectory since partition is similar to Punjab's in many ways and Punjab even now voted heavily to INC despite BJP wave in neighborhood.

Bit Punjab doesnt get the ethnic/chauvinist hatred directed against it, which Bengal does.


The current Ram Mohan Roy topic, I suspect, is also raised by the same elements.

On the flip side is somebody like Saswati Sarkar who pretty much has a chip on her shoulder the size of Mt. Everest. But nothing that Sarkar says even comes close to the poison that Khalistanis spread.

After watching a lot of these interactions on twitter, my instinct is that some people really are very insecure or feel threatened by Bengal turning saffron.


The Bengali Rai Bahaduri class has done a very good job of convincing an avg. middle Bengali thinking class person, that any questioning of any Bengali icon is an attack on Bengali culture and pride. No matter, that the only Bengali icons that the Rai Bahaduri class has annointed thus are carefully selected to further the centuries old cultural war leading to an ultimate westernization and christianization of India.

Why is the widespread attack on Bankim Chandra Chatterjee, by calling him or his novels communal not considered an attack on Bengal/Bengalis? Why is the widespread attack on Subhash Bose, by calling him a war criminal etc. not considered an attack on Bengal/Bengalis? Why are the contributions of Shyama Prasad Mukherjee denied their place in our nations history? Why is the sidelining of Pranab da not a chauvinistic act? How many in India know today of Bagha Jatin?

The reason is simple.. The obvious reason is ofcourse 'programming' of individuals to react a certain way.. Another important reason is, the left attacks not so much by attacking directly, but by ignoring the contributions of these other people. Left attacks by establishing hegemony in the myth making departments of culture and then erasing personas out of history! Were it not for the resistance by nationalistic forces, no one would remember Bankim, Subhash Bose, Shyama Prasad Mukherjee by the year 2000, such was the hegemonic power of the left.

From a very high level perspective, Bengal and Punjab have suffered deeply from the attacks of the Islamist and Colonialist forces on India. Long after the last red coat left the shores of India, the assault by the colonialist forces continued. Both Bengal and Punjab saw brutal COIN campaigns, supposedly by nationalist leaders! And as a result of this centuries old assault, there is a kind of stockholm syndrome among the intellectual class there. You see Punjabis making nice with Islamists, even as the Islamists commit genocide on Punjab! And you see Bengalis making nice with colonialists, even though the colonialists committed numerous genocides on Bengal, the last one, not 80 years old.

We must be kind, but firm, with Bengali and Punjabi intellectuals.. Their communities have suffered the most. And if we cant be kind to our own, rest assured, the treatment that the Islamists and the colonialists meet out to us will be much much worse.

Finally, there is indeed a yahoo class masquerading as Hindutva-wadins. If they had any association at all with the RSS, rest assured, their speech would be a lot more restrained and thoughtful. Literally, the first thing taught to you in a shakha is that you must address your peers, even your younger peers, as Ji. There is no room for pointless ego battles and aggression in the Sangh. There are also numerous false flag ops these days.. You never know, that the ultra rw handle is really ultra rw, or is merely a Congressi plant.


Sudeepj, You are absolutely right on some part and partially wrong on some other.

Let me get to the wrong part first. There are left intellectuals who has bad mouthed Bankim & Netaji but rest assured Bongs do take that as affront to their cultural icon. The ballot box winning by Left and TMC had nothing to do with what Bongs think about them. Same goes for Pranabda and Bagha Jatin. To keep their memory alive, Bongs do not need nationalistic forces from outside, they are part of Bong folk lore and I dare say none would be able to erase them. SPM is largely forgotten, true, but that's the fate of all Bong Hindu Mahasabha politicians, including father of Late Somnath Mukherjee (CPM and Speaker during UPA govt). SPM's father Sir Ashutosh is again part of Bong folklore and it would be impossible to erase the legacy. As it said, Bongs suffered a lot during the earlier political regime as there were no options who could go against the incumbent by money, muscle and influence. The current win by BJP has a large money play that switched part of the machinery to BJP along with the organisational genius of Mukul Roy. The electoral win does not indicate the cultural direction bongs as a society are going and it would be a grave danger to think that BJPs win in the election have won over bongs culturally; us bongs, in our 34 years of Left rule have learnt to compartmentalize these 2 and if not handled properly, the bongs would switch again electorally.

Now the right part. We do need to take care of our own and reject the puritans who on the drop of a hat makes our own as "others". It would be really sad to get into a the "more saffron shade win" situation in India.

WB has a lot of offshoots of Hindu religion. Brahmo is just one of them but there are 100s such which follow a mix of hindu, muslim and xtian principles. Some got wide spread recognitions like Baul but not all. There are serious social science researchers (I have a few friends there) who digs and documents the details. Most of the bongs in this forum would know the name of deities like Maa Shitala, Dharmathakur, Banabibi, ChandRay etc that are not in hintu pantheon of gods but adopted to co-opt the "antaja" class (lower strata) of people in the greater hinduism. And WB won't be the only state, I am sure people of other states who are really in touch with the lower strata would know about them. Co-opting the tribals into greater hinduism follows the same pattern.

While Brahmos have a few peculiar custom, none who have met them would deny that they are essentially part of hindus. I didn't know one of my close friend was brahmo till i attended his wedding and the only thing different than a hindu wedding was the bride and groom were sitting on chairs instead of ground while the prist does the same jagna and recites similar sanskrit mantras :)

The people who are doing rah rah against RRM and Brahmo are essentially those, who have never come across a Brahmo in real life and knows thing only from bookish perspective. And their lies the danger of using "primary source" without understanding the context. Primary source is necessary but not a sufficient condition to prove something in history. The quality of primary source and understanding the context matters. Let me give 2 example - one recent and one historical.

1. If anyone go by the primary source on NaMo from LeLi gang, his is "fascist", "divider in chief". The current age of course allows countering that with contrarian primary source but that luxury is not there always for historical figures.
2. Based on primary source, Jesus is a prophet of Islam and if you ask any muslim, none would counter that.

Similar is the logic of proving RRR as "unitary Xtian" and "hinduphobic" based on primary sources. The bongs, who are really aware of the context, would obviously protest when someone, unaware of the context, trying to prove a bengali icon to be "phobic" of majority religion of bongs. We may not show our devotion overtly and by influence of Ramakrishna Paramhansa agree that all religions leads to god but we are extremely attached to our cultural hinduism. You go anywhere in the world outside WB and you will find that a Durga Puja and a Maa Kali mandir exists whereever a group of bong resides. This far precedes the current hindu revival of creating large temples outside India, us bongs were there for long.

And this is what i dislike about the current blue on blue. Rajeev Malhotra and TrueIndology in this case are absolutely wrong to brand RRM and brahmo samaj the way they are proceeding. I dare say that following that principal we will brand a large number of hindus to be outside dharma and subconciously demand ghar wapsi from them. We can forget a greater hindu revival in such puritan way.

There is a reason hindu bongs consider RRR as icon and you can see the result even today. The hindu bongs came under EJ and Islamic conversion forces much earlier than most in south india. While the bong buddists converted enmass, see the solidity of bong hindus in that front even in current day. While the Islamic population is increasing due to a differential in birth rate and illegal crossing over from Bangladesh, historically we survived the conversion pressure on both front and a large credit goes to RRR and such hindu reformers who allowed the hinduism to evolve by taking over best practices from others and denigrating bad practices within. The brahmo samaj in that aspect to hindu is same as the relationship of shia vs sunni to some extent (not exactly but you get the point). Look at south india today with the conversion going on at full speed by both EJs as well as Mullahs and you would realize how great and far seeing those bong icons were.

And how blind Rajeev M and TrueIndology are in their intellectual ivory tower.
Last edited by Picklu on 29 May 2019 11:53, edited 1 time in total.

Picklu
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Posts: 1932
Joined: 25 Feb 2004 12:31

Re: 2019 General Elections : Results Discussion

Postby Picklu » 29 May 2019 11:53

Manish_Sharma wrote:
Rahul M wrote:
On Rammohan Roy, his reformist credential is beyond doubt but he also did a few iffy things, including falsely manipulate hindu scripts. There is also little doubt that he was strongly influence by xtianity and brahmo samaj was an amalgamation of xtian ethos within a nominally sanatan dharma framework......


Rajiv Malhotra:
RAM MOHAN ROY wrote following letter to British Prime Minister William Pitt asking to replace Sanskrit with Anglicized education in India. This was 12 years before Macaulay's campaign. Roy did many good things also. But what do you think of this action? https://t.co/fysXXHxxxY

https://twitter.com/RajivMessage/status ... 26528?s=19


His Excellency the Right Hon'ble WILLIAM PITT,
LORD AMHERST

MY LORD,
I HUMBLY reluctant as the natives of India are to obtrude upon the
notice of Government the sentiments they entertain on any public
measure, there are circumstances when silence would be carrying this
respectful feeling to culpable excess.

The present Rulers of India, coming from a distance of many thousand
miles to govern a people whose language, literature, manners, customs,
and ideas are almost entirely new and strange to them, cannot easily
become so intimately acquainted with their real circumstances, as the
natives of the country are themselves. We should therefore be guilty
of a gross dereliction of duty to ourselves, and afford our Rulers
just ground of complaint at our apathy, did we omit on occasions of
importance like the present to supply them with such accurate
information as might enable them to devise and adopt measures
calculated to be beneficial to the country, and thus second by our
local knowledge and experience their declared benevolent intentions
for its improvement.

The establishment of a new Sangscrit School in Calcutta evinces the
laudable desire of Government to improve the Natives of India by
Education, - blessing for which they must ever be grateful; and every
well wisher of the human race must be desirous that the efforts made
to promote it should be guided by the most enlightened principles, so
that the stream of intelligence may flow into the most useful
channels.
When this Seminary of learning was proposed, we understood that the
Government in England had ordered a considerable sum of money to be
annually devoted to the instruction of its Indian Subjects. We were
filled with sanguine hopes that this sum would be laid out in
employing European Gentlemen of talents and education to instruct the
natives of India in Mathematics, Natural Philosophy, Chemistry,
Anatomy and other useful Sciences, which the Nations of Europe have
carried to a degree of perfection that has raised them above the
inhabitants of other parts of the world.

While we looked forward with pleasing hope to the dawn of knowledge
thus promised to the rising generation, our hearts were filled with
mingled feelings of delight and gratitude; we already offered up
thanks to Providence for inspiring the most generous and enlightened
of the Nations of the West with the glorious ambition of planting in
Asia the Arts and Sciences of modern Europe.

We now find that the Government are establishing a Sangscrit school
under Hindoo Pundits to impart such knowledge as is already current in
India. This Seminary (similar in character to those which existed in
Europe before the time of Lord Bacon) can only be expected to load the
minds of youth with grammatical niceties and metaphysical distinctions
of little or no practicable use to the possessors or to society. The
pupils will there acquire what was known two thousand years ago, with
the addition of vain and empty subtilties since produced by
speculative men, such as is already commonly taught in all parts of
India.

The Sangscrit language, so difficult that almost a life time is
necessary for its perfect acquisition, is well known to have been for
ages a lamentable check on the diffusion of knowledge; and the
learning concealed under this almost impervious veil is far from
sufficient to reward the labour of acquiring it. But if it were
thought necessary to perpetuate this language for the sake of the
portion of the valuable information it contains, this might be much
more easily accomplished by other means than the establishment of a
new Sangscrit College; for there have been always and are now numerous
professors of Sangscrit in the different parts of the country, engaged
in teaching this language as well as the other branches of literature
which are to be the object of the new Seminary. Therefore their more
diligent cultivation, if desirable, would be effectually promoted by
holding out premiums and granting certain allowances to those most
eminent Professors, who have already undertaken on their own account
to teach them, and would by such rewards be stimulated to still
greater exertions.

From these considerations, as the sum set apart for the instruction of
the Natives of India was intended by the Government in England,  for
the improvement of its Indian subjects, I beg leave to state, with due
deference to your Lordship's exalted situation, that if the plan now
adopted be followed, it will completely defeat the object proposed;
since no improvement can be expected from inducing young men to
consume a dozen of years of the most valuable period of their lives in
acquiring the niceties of the Byakurun of Sangscrit Grammar. For
instance, in learning to discuss such points as the following: Khad
signifying to eat, Khaduti, he or she or it eats. Query, whether does
the word Khaduti, taken as a whole, convey the meaning he, she, or it
eats, or are separate parts of this meaning conveyed by distinct
portions of the word? As if in the English language it were asked, how
much meaning is there in the eat, how much in the s? and is the whole
meaning of the word conveyed by those two portions of it distinctly,
or by them taken jointly?

Neither can much improvement arise from such speculations as the
following, which are the themes suggested by the Vedant:- In what
manner is the soul absorbed into the deity? What relation does it bear
to the divine essence? Nor will youths be fitted to be better members
of society by the Vedantic doctrines, which teach them to believe that
all visible things have no real existence; that as father, brother,
etc., have no actual entirety; they consequently deserve no real
affection, and therefore the sooner we escape from them and leave the
world the better. Again, no essential benefit can be derived by the
student of the Meemangsa from knowing what it is that makes the killer
of a goat sinless on pronouncing certain passages of the Veds, and
what is the real nature and operative influence of passages of the
Ved, etc.

Again the student of the Nyaya Shastra cannot be said to have improved
his mind after he has learned from it into how marry ideal classes the
objects in the Universe are divided, and what speculative relation the
soul bears to the body, the body to the soul, the eye to the
ear,
        In order to enable your Lordship to appreciate the utility of
encouraging such imaginary learning as above characterised, I beg your
Lordship will be pleased to compare the state of science and
literature in England before the time of Lord Bacon, with the progress
of knowledge made since he wrote.
[Sanskrit education is best calculated to keep the Indian mind in the
bondage of darkness]If it had been intended to keep the British nation
in ignorance of real knowledge, the Baconian philosophy would not have
been allowed to displace the system of the schoolmen, which was the
best calculated to perpetuate ignorance. In the same manner the
Sangscrit system of education would be the best calculated to keep
this country in darkness, if such had been the policy of the British
Legislature. But as the improvement of the native population is the
object of the Government, it consequently ought to promote a more
liberal and enlightened system of instruction, embracing mathematics,
natural philosophy, chemistry and anatomy, with other useful sciences
which may be accomplished with the sum proposed by employing a few
gentlemen of talents and learning educated in Europe, and providing a
college furnished with the necessary books, instruments and other
apparatus.
In representing this subject to your Lordship I conceive myself
discharging a solemn duty which I owe to my countrymen and also to
that enlightened Sovereign and Legislature which have extended their
benevolent cares to this distant land actuated by a desire to improve
its inhabitants, and I therefore humbly trust you will excuse the
liberty I have taken in thus expressing my sentiments to your
Lordship.
I have, etc.,
RAMMOHUN ROY,
 CALCUTTA; The 11th December 1823



I consider the action extremely good and far sighted for the time.

Getting English education for the lower masses allowed us to leap frog. There is a reason why vocational training and engineering are preferred over pure science for mass. Same is the case of practical education via English vs theology via Sanskrit (as was most prevalent). And that is what the letter says in a nutshell.

The language of this letter as well as the language on the petitions on Sati were nothing but changing the communication pattern suitable for the recipient to get his way in the least resistance. The goal was important. The goal was to
a. get common people scientific European education that was not possible at that point of time in sanskrit
b. remove sati and other such ghastly practices (however minisclue the number, the practice was ghastly) at the earliest via penal code

As i said, the language of such is merely a medium to accomplish the goal in the quickest manner. Apply liberal amount of "Maska" to ensure the English don't look too deep. RRR and I dare say, most of the bong icons, including Michael Madhusudan Dutta were sanguine in their belief that core hindu philosophy is much stronger than people are giving it credit for and will not only survive but thrive taking in fresh ideas from all over the world.
Last edited by Picklu on 29 May 2019 12:04, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: 2019 General Elections : Results Discussion

Postby Picklu » 29 May 2019 12:15

Rahul M wrote:meanwhile enjoy this epic trolling of MB as she comes out of Raj Bhawan.
https://twitter.com/mvmeet/status/1133422298000547840

Her facial expression is a sight to behold as people are shouting Jai Sriram to her. :rotfl: :rotfl:
I don't know if bjp was directly up to this, but if they were, kudos to them. It directly feeds into her paranoia and would lead to her making more mistakes.

==========

On Rammohan Roy, his reformist credential is beyond doubt but he also did a few iffy things, including falsely manipulate hindu scripts. There is also little doubt that he was strongly influence by xtianity and brahmo samaj was an amalgamation of xtian ethos within a nominally sanatan dharma framework. For the brit missionaries it was little more than a version of xtianity the natives could accept. the overtly xtian tendencies were later mitigated due to the influence of no less a person than Ramkrishna Paramhansa on then Brahmo Samaj leader Keshabchandra Sen. As the Brahmo Samaj's reformist plank, like women's education, no child marriage and no dowry came to be accepted by the wider hindu society, the ideology slowly became irrelevant.

It does not do bengal any credit to put our icons on a pedestal. that way comes hubris and with hubris comes whatever state bengal is in now.


Rahul, it's not putting our icons on pedestal. It is about doing an impartial analysis taking the context into picture. The primary sources from that period have multiple layers applied on top of them and to reach the crux of it, the outer layers need to be removed. Lot of core goals were hidden using overly submissive language and logic that will appeal to the ruling Brits. It is also no denying that the sanatan dharma at that point of time was moribund in practice and lot of dead woods had gathered (kind of like current congress after NaMo 2.0 :) )and needed fresh ideas (europen science), tools (english language) and more latitude in puritanism to reclaim its old glory. The result, as I mentioned, is obvious in religious conversion statistics in WB and surroundings.

Without removing such layer, based on primary sources the conclusion would be Rishi Aurobindo ran away to Pondicherry, Netaji took help from Nazi Germany and Savarkar wrote mercy petition.

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Re: 2019 General Elections : Results Discussion

Postby Karthik S » 29 May 2019 12:20

Picklu wrote:
Rahul M wrote:meanwhile enjoy this epic trolling of MB as she comes out of Raj Bhawan.
https://twitter.com/mvmeet/status/1133422298000547840

Her facial expression is a sight to behold as people are shouting Jai Sriram to her. :rotfl: :rotfl:
I don't know if bjp was directly up to this, but if they were, kudos to them. It directly feeds into her paranoia and would lead to her making more mistakes.

==========

On Rammohan Roy, his reformist credential is beyond doubt but he also did a few iffy things, including falsely manipulate hindu scripts. There is also little doubt that he was strongly influence by xtianity and brahmo samaj was an amalgamation of xtian ethos within a nominally sanatan dharma framework. For the brit missionaries it was little more than a version of xtianity the natives could accept. the overtly xtian tendencies were later mitigated due to the influence of no less a person than Ramkrishna Paramhansa on then Brahmo Samaj leader Keshabchandra Sen. As the Brahmo Samaj's reformist plank, like women's education, no child marriage and no dowry came to be accepted by the wider hindu society, the ideology slowly became irrelevant.

It does not do bengal any credit to put our icons on a pedestal. that way comes hubris and with hubris comes whatever state bengal is in now.


Rahul, it's not putting our icons on pedestal. It is about doing an impartial analysis taking the context into picture. The primary sources from that period have multiple layers applied on top of them and to reach the crux of it, the outer layers need to be removed. Lot of core goals were hidden using overly submissive language and logic that will appeal to the ruling Brits. It is also no denying that the sanatan dharma at that point of time was moribund in practice and lot of dead woods had gathered (kind of like current congress after NaMo 2.0 :) )and needed fresh ideas (europen science), tools (english language) and more latitude in puritanism to reclaim its old glory. The result, as I mentioned, is obvious in religious conversion statistics in WB and surroundings.

Without removing such layer, based on primary sources the conclusion would be Rishi Aurobindo ran away to Pondicherry, Netaji took help from Nazi Germany and Savarkar wrote mercy petition.


Are you suggesting converting ones religion and then seeking converts to new religion by deriding old religion is same as above examples ?

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Re: 2019 General Elections : Results Discussion

Postby siqir » 29 May 2019 12:35

english is a prakrit and in no way comparable to sanskrit

there are any number of prakrits but only one sanskrit in this world

terming english superior to sanskrit and european science better reflects an inferiority complex and massive lack of knowledge

rajaram mohan roy actions were bad for us and we are still paying for it

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Re: West Bengal - news and strategy thread

Postby Picklu » 29 May 2019 12:37

ramana wrote:Picklu I think you see too much into the Vidyasagar statue demolition. Average Bengali knows its #Jihadidi work.
BJP getting 19 seats is quite good.
If violence had been curbed in the first two phases the tally would be more.
And the story is not over yet.
Jihadidi has her own investigation into the incident.
Meanwhile there is NIA investigation country wide into EVM destruction.
And EC could file charges at all politicians who tried to undermine the election process by casting unfounded doubts on process.

Most likely there will be Cabinet inductions from the 19 brave stalwarts.
They deserve recognition for singeing Jihadidi in Bengal.


Ramana, the poll violence in the first two phase didn't do anything for jihadidi. BJP won all such seats. The rumor has it that the hidden BJP faction of TMC were behind such violence.

Whereas BJP had very good chances on dumdum and kolkata uttar on the last phase. You don't have to take my opinion, just check the opinion as well as exit poll from all psephologist including PP, Chintamani etc who got it right and will find those 2 seats were predicted to be in BJP hand. The statue incident also helped TMC to retain Jadavpur seat that were predicted to go to Left. Ignoring these as small issues compared to winning 18 seats for BJP has its own peril.

I daresay, it would be premature to think Bongs are on BJP fold based on one single election. The current result against TMC is in many cases an anti incumbency wave, the bongs have learnt how to keep the cultural and political identity different in 34 years Left rule and just like they switched in the first opportunity from Left to TMC and TMC to BJP, another switch is equally possible if BJP is not sensitive on cultural front. Remember it was TMCs meddling in cultural area where for example they changed "Ramdhanu" to "Rangdhanu" ensured most of the bongs started looking for BJP as alternative to TMC.

I would suggest you to check the infographic shared on the forum giving the map of india based on GE political preference from 1954 onward. Just see how strongly WB remained with red going against all pan national tendencies. Us bongs are like that onlee when we have a strong feeling. Bongs going back to such state would be counter productive for national causes and is only for BJP to squander a golden opportunity by going puritan on intellectual front.

And while Bongs know that Jihadidi's goons broke the statue, deriding RRR or Tagore by RW folks as being done now won't allow BJP the latitude.
Last edited by Picklu on 29 May 2019 13:20, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: West Bengal - news and strategy thread

Postby Picklu » 29 May 2019 12:42

Pathik wrote:
Kati wrote:
Saurav Ganguly is too soft for politics. Moreover, he is hand in glove with didi.
However, this election has shown the leadership qualities within the Bengal BJP. A lot of credit must go to Dilip Ghosh (state BJP prez) for his aggressive attitude. He did help the party's rise. But before him it was Rahul Sinha. But both of these two men, who do not see eye to eye, lack sophistication, but did a lot for the party. Here comes then two other mahila leaders - current RS member Ms. Rupa Ganguly (past BJP Mahila Morcha's head) and Ms. Locket Chatterjee (current head of Mahila Morcha). Both are/were celebrities, have mass appeals, very good orators, have fighting skills, and above all - very sophisticated. Both can work in rural as well as in urban areas.

Sourav Ganguly - Hes already got the leadership skills to steer the ship out of troubled waters. He may not be hand in glove with MB as he hasnt portrayed any direct anti BJP symptoms. Nobody in WB for that matter would have taken on Didi before the election results.

The leadership of Saurav Ganguly is untested in a situation that needs physical brawl. Based on his current avatar and character shown, he is not that kind of person by upbringing. Of course he can learn. But Rupa Ganguly, Babool Supriya, Dileep Ghosh, Mukul Roy is much more suitable as of now.

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Re: 2019 General Elections : Results Discussion

Postby Picklu » 29 May 2019 12:49

Karthik S wrote:
Picklu wrote:
Rahul, it's not putting our icons on pedestal. It is about doing an impartial analysis taking the context into picture. The primary sources from that period have multiple layers applied on top of them and to reach the crux of it, the outer layers need to be removed. Lot of core goals were hidden using overly submissive language and logic that will appeal to the ruling Brits. It is also no denying that the sanatan dharma at that point of time was moribund in practice and lot of dead woods had gathered (kind of like current congress after NaMo 2.0 :) )and needed fresh ideas (europen science), tools (english language) and more latitude in puritanism to reclaim its old glory. The result, as I mentioned, is obvious in religious conversion statistics in WB and surroundings.

Without removing such layer, based on primary sources the conclusion would be Rishi Aurobindo ran away to Pondicherry, Netaji took help from Nazi Germany and Savarkar wrote mercy petition.


Are you suggesting converting ones religion and then seeking converts to new religion by deriding old religion is same as above examples ?


I am saying that His goal was to improve Hinduism and so he came up with an offshoot of Hinduism, same as Buddhism, Sikhism etc. Think about it, all denigration of old religion etc that are going to RRR are equally applicable to the those 2.

Understanding the social context is important. He didn't work to ban Sati for his new converts but for larger Hindu society. He considered himself as Hindu and wanted to improve it similar to akbar coming up with a new religion.

Hence, It is not correct to term him as Xtian and Hinduphobic. That is as counter productive as terming people trying to abolish Triple Talaq Islamophobic.
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Re: 2019 General Elections : Results Discussion

Postby Picklu » 29 May 2019 12:58

siqir wrote:english is a prakrit and in no way comparable to sanskrit

there are any number of prakrits but only one sanskrit in this world

terming english superior to sanskrit and european science better reflects an inferiority complex and massive lack of knowledge

rajaram mohan roy actions were bad for us and we are still paying for it


Being the largest english speaking country in the world, having a forum with english as communication medium, connecting to the largest source of global knowledge via English and then with all those advantages in hand, deriding the social icons who ensured the english reaches the common masses do not appear prudent.

We will do the analysis of our "paying for it" when we have a sanskrit (or for that matter even a hindi) equivalent of forum and social media.

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Re: 2019 General Elections : Results Discussion

Postby siqir » 29 May 2019 13:03

सत्यमेवजयते।

जय हिन्द।

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Re: 2019 General Elections : Results Discussion

Postby Picklu » 29 May 2019 13:08

siqir wrote:सत्यमेवजयते।

जय हिन्द।


জয় মা কালী।

পাঁঠা বলি।

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Re: 2019 General Elections : Results Discussion

Postby Karthik S » 29 May 2019 13:30

Picklu wrote:
Karthik S wrote:
Are you suggesting converting ones religion and then seeking converts to new religion by deriding old religion is same as above examples ?


I am saying that His goal was to improve Hinduism and so he came up with an offshoot of Hinduism, same as Buddhism, Sikhism etc. Think about it, all denigration of old religion etc that are going to RRR are equally applicable to the those 2.

Understanding the social context is important. He didn't work to ban Sati for his new converts but for larger Hindu society. He considered himself as Hindu and wanted to improve it similar to akbar coming up with a new religion.

Hence, It is not correct to term him as Xtian and Hinduphobic. That is as counter productive as terming people trying to abolish Triple Talaq Islamophobic.


This is not about right or wrong. That he was an unitarian convert has been shown with proof. That has been the debate that true indology has been engaged in. Offshoot of one religion is not same as converting to an abrahamic faith, faith of the colonists. A faith that considers your religion an enemy, calls your gods as devils, and says idol worshipers go to hell etc etc. Anyone who converted during the british and worked with them is a britshit agent period. This is the problem, people place co-caste, co-linguists above religion and nation.
BTW in europe find out how many 'witches' were burnt and in what context.

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Re: 2019 General Elections : Results Discussion

Postby Picklu » 29 May 2019 14:12

Karthik S wrote:
Picklu wrote:
I am saying that His goal was to improve Hinduism and so he came up with an offshoot of Hinduism, same as Buddhism, Sikhism etc. Think about it, all denigration of old religion etc that are going to RRR are equally applicable to the those 2.

Understanding the social context is important. He didn't work to ban Sati for his new converts but for larger Hindu society. He considered himself as Hindu and wanted to improve it similar to akbar coming up with a new religion.

Hence, It is not correct to term him as Xtian and Hinduphobic. That is as counter productive as terming people trying to abolish Triple Talaq Islamophobic.


This is not about right or wrong. That he was an unitarian convert has been shown with proof. That has been the debate that true indology has been engaged in. Offshoot of one religion is not same as converting to an abrahamic faith, faith of the colonists. A faith that considers your religion an enemy, calls your gods as devils, and says idol worshipers go to hell etc etc. Anyone who converted during the british and worked with them is a britshit agent period. This is the problem, people place co-caste, co-linguists above religion and nation.
BTW in europe find out how many 'witches' were burnt and in what context.




The bolded line above is not correct IMVHO. As far as I have followed the discussion, there is no proof that RRR have accepted himself as unitarian xtian. It is quite contrary per his own statement.

The proof from primary source provided by TI is that some other unitarian claiming RRR as one of their own.

And that IMVHO is no proof at all. Those proof are similar to the the examples I gave:

a. NaMo being fascist as taken from primary source of Nikhil Wagle
b. Jesus is a prophet of Islam as taken from Islam.

And all the while ignoring his own writings where he expanded quite a lot about his own though process about religion and never claimed himself as unitarian xtian.

And once we take away that proof, the rest of the (british agent) bile goes away.

I will ignore the "co-caste", "co-linguist" epithets being liberally showered on "co-religionist", "co-nationalist" because there is a difference in opinion.

And my small brain explodes trying to understand why "witches" were brought onto this discussion :eek:
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Re: 2019 General Elections : Results Discussion

Postby Picklu » 29 May 2019 14:19

And I would like to see a link where the proof is that RRR accepted himself as unitarian xtian instead of someone else claiming him to be one.

I have no problem to be corrected if I am wrong.

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Re: 2019 General Elections : Results Discussion

Postby Pratyush » 29 May 2019 14:22

I am trying to understand this Raja Ram Mohan Rai controversy. But I am unable to do so.

Why are we trying to judge a man who lived 200 years ago by the standards of today. That too of a small segment of society.

He may have gotten a few things right and a few things wrong.

What is the need to judge him for getting a few things wrong. Are we who are living in 2019 capable of understanding what was taking place in India 200 years ago.

All the points being raised predate 1857. The English had been ruling Bengal since 1757.

Obviously he was expecting the British to solve India's problems as he saw fit.

He was a product of his time and conditions.

Leave him alone not all battles have to be won today.

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Re: 2019 General Elections : Results Discussion

Postby Karthik S » 29 May 2019 14:29

Sir, we keep saying our history books have to be corrected from the leftist version, so that we know our true history, who are our true heros and who are make up heros. It matters ok?

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Re: 2019 General Elections : Results Discussion

Postby Karthik S » 29 May 2019 14:35

Picklu wrote:
Karthik S wrote:
This is not about right or wrong. That he was an unitarian convert has been shown with proof. That has been the debate that true indology has been engaged in. Offshoot of one religion is not same as converting to an abrahamic faith, faith of the colonists. A faith that considers your religion an enemy, calls your gods as devils, and says idol worshipers go to hell etc etc. Anyone who converted during the british and worked with them is a britshit agent period. This is the problem, people place co-caste, co-linguists above religion and nation.
BTW in europe find out how many 'witches' were burnt and in what context.




The bolded line above is not correct IMVHO. As far as I have followed the discussion, there is no proof that RRR have accepted himself as unitarian xtian. It is quite contrary per his own statement.

The proof from primary source provided by TI is that some other unitarian claiming RRR as one of their own.

And that IMVHO is no proof at all. Those proof are similar to the the examples I gave:

a. NaMo being fascist as taken from primary source of Nikhil Wagle
b. Jesus is a prophet of Islam as taken from Islam.

And all the while ignoring his own writings where he expanded quite a lot about his own though process about religion and never claimed himself as unitarian xtian.

And once we take away that proof, the rest of the (british agent) bile goes away.

I will ignore the "co-caste", "co-linguist" epithets being liberally showered on "co-religionist", "co-nationalist" because there is a difference in opinion.

And my small brain explodes trying to understand why "witches" were brought onto this discussion :eek:


I am sure it explodes, if you didn't get the hint or don't know history read about witch hunt in Europe. If one wants to stop sati, brits were the last people to be associated with.
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Re: 2019 General Elections : Results Discussion

Postby Picklu » 29 May 2019 14:35

Pratyush wrote:I am trying to understand this Raja Ram Mohan Rai controversy. But I am unable to do so.

Why are we trying to judge a man who lived 200 years ago by the standards of today. That too of a small segment of society.

He may have gotten a few things right and a few things wrong.

What is the need to judge him for getting a few things wrong. Are we who are living in 2019 capable of understanding what was taking place in India 200 years ago.

All the points being raised predate 1857. The English had been ruling Bengal since 1757.

Obviously he was expecting the British to solve India's problems as he saw fit.

He was a product of his time and conditions.

Leave him alone not all battles have to be won today.


I agree to this. Hence my original lament of absolutely avoidable blue on blue coming from a puritan view point making ones own as "other". See above, how easily it comes down to mark one of the brightest bengali icons a "britshit agent"

The entire thing is now coming down to tagging Bengalis with various demeaning epithets.

Already people are terming bengalis "strange" for stating ekadashi fast for widows of that time draconian without understanding the context that widows at that point of time would be a teenager girl or even lower in age and ekadashi fast (and the other rituals) forced onto them in the name of religion are truly draconian.

No, it doesn't matter whether some people do fasting on their own volition, the context is different. I do fasting on my own. And I would call forced fasting draconian like any sane person.

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Re: 2019 General Elections : Results Discussion

Postby Picklu » 29 May 2019 14:37

Karthik S wrote:
Picklu wrote:


The bolded line above is not correct IMVHO. As far as I have followed the discussion, there is no proof that RRR have accepted himself as unitarian xtian. It is quite contrary per his own statement.

The proof from primary source provided by TI is that some other unitarian claiming RRR as one of their own.

And that IMVHO is no proof at all. Those proof are similar to the the examples I gave:

a. NaMo being fascist as taken from primary source of Nikhil Wagle
b. Jesus is a prophet of Islam as taken from Islam.

And all the while ignoring his own writings where he expanded quite a lot about his own though process about religion and never claimed himself as unitarian xtian.

And once we take away that proof, the rest of the (british agent) bile goes away.

I will ignore the "co-caste", "co-linguist" epithets being liberally showered on "co-religionist", "co-nationalist" because there is a difference in opinion.

And my small brain explodes trying to understand why "witches" were brought onto this discussion :eek:


I am sure it explodes, if you didn't get the hint or don't know history read about witch hunt in Europe.


I see you swiftly by-passed the need to provide proof where RRR accpted himself as unitary xtian. Where went your claim of "proven by TI"? The standard of proof have to be reduced to "heresy" to "correct leftist history"?

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Re: 2019 General Elections : Results Discussion

Postby Pratyush » 29 May 2019 14:44

Karthik S wrote:Sir, we keep saying our history books have to be corrected from the leftist version, so that we know our true history, who are our true heros and who are make up heros. It matters ok?



Ok so let it be an academic exercise. No issues with that. But to say that someone is a Christian when no clear evidence exists is not an academic exercise.

Or for that matter, a demand to Indians to be taught English when ever that was made has to be seen in context of what was happening in society at that point in time.

Do you know that in modern India widow remarriage is still not an accepted practice.

All I am saying don't judge a man who existed in a specific context and time. By standards and beliefs of present.

Let's assess him for the work he did. Without putting any blinkers on him and his personality.

Pratyush
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Re: 2019 General Elections : Results Discussion

Postby Pratyush » 29 May 2019 14:49

Karthik S wrote:



I am sure it explodes, if you didn't get the hint or don't know history read about witch hunt in Europe. If one wants to stop sati, brits were the last people to be associated with.



And Raja Ram Mohan Rai would know about this 200 years ago.

That's the problem I have with this issue. People with the benefits of hindsight assume that a person living 200 years ago would have access to same set of insights they have.

Context and time don't matter.

Karthik S
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Re: 2019 General Elections : Results Discussion

Postby Karthik S » 29 May 2019 14:51

Pratyush, you are just giving RRR benefit of the doubt that he wouldn't have known what's going on in Europe for centuries from mid 1400s. Fine, we can come up with our own inferences.

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Re: 2019 General Elections : Results Discussion

Postby Picklu » 29 May 2019 14:56

Karthik S wrote:Pratyush, you are just giving RRR benefit of the doubt that he wouldn't have known what's going on in Europe for centuries from mid 1400s. Fine, we can come up with our own inferences.


You still haven't provided the proof other than "heresy" that RRR was a convert. If this has already been proven, it would be so easy to provide a link.
Last edited by Picklu on 29 May 2019 14:59, edited 1 time in total.

Karthik S
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Re: 2019 General Elections : Results Discussion

Postby Karthik S » 29 May 2019 14:59

Picklu wrote:
Karthik S wrote:Pratyush, you are just giving RRR benefit of the doubt that he wouldn't have known what's going on in Europe for centuries from mid 1400s. Fine, we can come up with our own inferences.


You still haven't provided the proof other than "heresy" that RRR was a convert


Look up TI's timeline, you'll have enough evidence, sorry can't copy paste for you.

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Re: 2019 General Elections : Results Discussion

Postby Picklu » 29 May 2019 15:00

Karthik S wrote:
Picklu wrote:
You still haven't provided the proof other than "heresy" that RRR was a convert


Look up TI's timeline, you'll have enough evidence, sorry can't copy paste for you.


It is NOT there. I have checked. All that's there is heresy and innuendo.
Last edited by Picklu on 29 May 2019 15:01, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 2019 General Elections : Results Discussion

Postby Karthik S » 29 May 2019 15:01

:lol: it is not there ? ok

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Re: 2019 General Elections : Results Discussion

Postby Picklu » 29 May 2019 15:02

Karthik S wrote::lol: it is not there ? ok


If it is there, it would be easy to provide a link? no? You are so sanguine, should be easy for you.

All TI provide as proof is some one else claiming RRR as unitary xtian.

By that logic, quoting Shivam Vij and Nikhil Wagle and rest of the tukde tukde gang, NaMo becomes a "fascist".

If this is the academic rigour of correcting leftist history, then we are already doomed.

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Re: 2019 General Elections : Results Discussion

Postby Pratyush » 29 May 2019 15:07

Karthik S wrote:Pratyush, you are just giving RRR benefit of the doubt that he wouldn't have known what's going on in Europe for centuries from mid 1400s. Fine, we can come up with our own inferences.


I am not sure that European situation and the British role is pertinent to this discussion.

What I am sure off is that Ram Mohan Rai was aware of the social situations in his day. He was aware of the fact that Bengal and parts of India were ruled by the British. Appealing to British as being one of them is not really that surprising or unprecedented.

Okay one thought excercise for all sides of this issue.

What would Raja would have done. If instead of being a British subject. He was a Mughal subject.

How would he have approached the issues of his day.

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Re: 2019 General Elections : Results Discussion

Postby Karthik S » 29 May 2019 15:12

I am telling you, look up TI's timeline, he had major argument with likes of Hindol Sengupta and Kanchan Gupta just yesterday and the day before where he provides proofs of RRR's actions and motivations. If you are unwilling to see, then that's your problem.

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Re: 2019 General Elections : Results Discussion

Postby Picklu » 29 May 2019 15:23

Karthik S wrote:I am telling you, look up TI's timeline, he had major argument with likes of Hindol Sengupta and Kanchan Gupta just yesterday and the day before where he provides proofs of RRR's actions and motivations. If you are unwilling to see, then that's your problem.


I am not unwilling to see. It is exactly the oppostive, I have checked. It is not there.

I have checked his argument against Hindol and Kanchan as well as rebuttals to him given by Tathagata Roy (current Tripura Govornor) and SanjeevSanskrit.

It is not there and all 4 of them are saying the same thing.

TI is sticking to heresy as his primary source where someone else claims RRR to be unitary xtian and terming it as proof. When challenged, he asks, "show me a single unitary xtian that deny RRR is one of them"!!!! :roll:

Rest of his supporters are just shouting out the contrarian viewpoint, quite like you, not able to give proof but stating "TI said so".

It is simple enough. If RRR is a xtian he would have claimed/accepted so, please provide the proof if you are so sanguine it is there in TI's timeline.
Last edited by Picklu on 29 May 2019 15:39, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: 2019 General Elections : Results Discussion

Postby Picklu » 29 May 2019 15:34

Pratyush wrote:
Karthik S wrote:Pratyush, you are just giving RRR benefit of the doubt that he wouldn't have known what's going on in Europe for centuries from mid 1400s. Fine, we can come up with our own inferences.


I am not sure that European situation and the British role is pertinent to this discussion.

What I am sure off is that Ram Mohan Rai was aware of the social situations in his day. He was aware of the fact that Bengal and parts of India were ruled by the British. Appealing to British as being one of them is not really that surprising or unprecedented.

Okay one thought excercise for all sides of this issue.

What would Raja would have done. If instead of being a British subject. He was a Mughal subject.

How would he have approached the issues of his day.


As the Roop Kanwar incident in 1987 and the subsequent framing of law shows, there is no remedy other than penal provision by the rulers of the land for such dastardly act in the name of religion. Same is the case of Triple Talaq and Nikah Halala.

Exactly what RRR had done on that time and exactly what we are doing today.

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Re: 2019 General Elections : Results Discussion

Postby Pratyush » 29 May 2019 15:39

So what is the real controversy.

That Raja was a Christian convert.

If he was then elements of Christianity would be visible in Brahma samaj.

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Re: 2019 General Elections : Results Discussion

Postby abhijitm » 29 May 2019 15:51

Pratyush wrote:So what is the real controversy.

That Raja was a Christian convert.

If he was then elements of Christianity would be visible in Brahma samaj.

That is not how it started or what people discussed on SM. The points of discussion was
1. RRR is credited the reform of the society by stopping sati. Was it true, half truth or a lie
2. Importantly, whether RRR was british sympathizer

While discussing 2 it came out that he was fascinated by them and their religion. Thus most likely he was british raj sympathizer and likely rewarded the credit of reform although there were kingdoms earlier who banned sati.

Personally i don't give importance to religion conversion if it is not forced or conned or bribed.


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