West Bengal - news and strategy thread

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Re: West Bengal - news and strategy thread

Postby Picklu » 29 May 2019 22:16

A_Gupta wrote:RRMR wrote about the Hinduism he experienced:

From considerations like these it has been that I (although born a Brahmin and instructed in my youth in all the principles of that sect), being thoroughly convinced of the lamentable errors of my countrymen, have been stimulated to employ every means in my power to improve their minds, and lead them to the knowledge of a purer system of morality.

Living constantly amongst Hindoos of different sects and professions, I have had ample opportunity of observing the superstitious puerilities into which they have been thrown by their self-interested guides, who, in defiance of the law as well as of common sense, have succeeded but too well in conducting them to the temple of idolatry; and while they hid from their view the true substance of morality, have infused into their simple hearts a weak attachment for its mere shadow.

For a chief part of the theory and practice of Hindooism, I am sorry to say, is made to consist in the adoption of a peculiar mode of diet; the least aberration from which (even though the conduct of the offender may in other respects be pure and blameless) is not only visited with the severest censure, but actually punished by exclusion from the society of his family and friends. In a word, he is doomed to undergo what is commonly called loss of cast.

On the contrary, the rigid observance of this grand article of Hindoo faith is considered in so high a light as to compensate for every moral defect. Even the most atrocious crimes weigh little or nothing in the balance against the supposed guilt of its violation.

Murder, theft or perjury, though brought home to the party by a judicial sentence, so far from inducing loss of cast, is visited in their society with no peculiar mark of infamy or disgrace.

A trifling present to the Brahmin, commonly called Prayaschit, with the performance of a few idle ceremonies, are held as a sufficient atonement for all these crimes; and the delinquent is at once freed from all temporal inconvenience, as well as all dread of future retribution.

My reflections upon these solemn truths has been most painful for many years. I have never ceased to contemplate with the strongest feelings of regret, the obstinate adherence of my countrymen to their fatal system of idolatry, inducing, for the sake of propitiating their supposed Deities, the violation of every humane and social feeling. And this in various instances; but more especially in the dreadful acts of self-destruction and the immolation of the nearest relations, under the delusion of conforming to sacred religious rites.

I have never ceased, I repeat, to contemplate these practices with the strongest feelings of regret, and to view in them the moral debasement of a race, who I cannot help thinking, are capable of better things; whose susceptibility, patience and mildness of character, render them worthy of a better destiny. Under these impressions, therefore, I have been impelled to lay before them genuine translations of parts of their scripture, which inculcates not only the enlightened worship of one God, but the purest principles of morality, accompanied with such notices as I deemed requisite to oppose the arguments employed by the Brahmins in defence of their beloved system. Most earnestly do I pray that the whole may, sooner or later, prove efficient in producing on the minds of Hindoos in general, a conviction of the rationality of believing in and adoring the Supreme Being only; together with a complete perception and practice of that grand and comprehensive moral principle - Do unto others as ye would be done by.


Questions:
1. Is RRMR's description of contemporary Hindoos accurate (obsessed with the morality of diet but not of murder, perjury, etc., etc.)?
2. Assuming that the description is correct, is RRMR's diagnosis correct - that this Hindoo degeneration is because of their polytheism and idolatry? That they are misled by Brahmins?
3. Likewise, is RRMR's treatment correct - namely if Hindoos return to a strict monotheism, their morals will improve?

From my perspective, when Arsha Vidya's Dayananda Saraswati said that one does not need any religion to be a good person, it does not seem relevant how many gods you worship or don't worship and what rituals you perform or don't perform. So I don't understand RRMR's diagnosis or treatment. My modern day diagnosis would be that Hindoos at RMRR's time did not understand Shruti or Smriti. On the other hand, my view is no doubt derivable from the changes that RMRR wrought. So I wonder if the Hindoos of RMRR's time would recognize me as a Hindoo, or would straight out "induce a loss of cast".

For that matter, for you Hindoos here -- would your ancestors of the 1800s accept you as you are today, or "induce a loss of cast"? If you answer the latter, then I think criticism of RRMR needs to be more nuanced; you are after all criticizing him as a Hindu, when Hindoos of his day would not recognize you as one, and the only reason you are recognized as a Hindu today is because of the reforms RRMR and others brought about.


"ek ghare" or social outcast used to be the norm for anyone going against orthodoxy. It was draconian. And it took a lot of time to go, part of it was prevalent even 100 or 50 years before. Why go so far, when was untouchability in hindu society completely iradicated?

People going by scripture and "primary sources" are simply not aware of the ground situation that practice is different from written theory.

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Re: West Bengal - news and strategy thread

Postby sudeepj » 29 May 2019 22:18

A_Gupta wrote:RRMR wrote about the Hinduism he experienced:

From considerations like these it has been that I (although born a Brahmin and instructed in my youth in all the principles of that sect), being thoroughly convinced of the lamentable errors of my countrymen, have been stimulated to employ every means in my power to improve their minds, and lead them to the knowledge of a purer system of morality.

Living constantly amongst Hindoos of different sects and professions, I have had ample opportunity of observing the superstitious puerilities into which they have been thrown by their self-interested guides, who, in defiance of the law as well as of common sense, have succeeded but too well in conducting them to the temple of idolatry; and while they hid from their view the true substance of morality, have infused into their simple hearts a weak attachment for its mere shadow.

For a chief part of the theory and practice of Hindooism, I am sorry to say, is made to consist in the adoption of a peculiar mode of diet; the least aberration from which (even though the conduct of the offender may in other respects be pure and blameless) is not only visited with the severest censure, but actually punished by exclusion from the society of his family and friends. In a word, he is doomed to undergo what is commonly called loss of cast.

On the contrary, the rigid observance of this grand article of Hindoo faith is considered in so high a light as to compensate for every moral defect. Even the most atrocious crimes weigh little or nothing in the balance against the supposed guilt of its violation.

Murder, theft or perjury, though brought home to the party by a judicial sentence, so far from inducing loss of cast, is visited in their society with no peculiar mark of infamy or disgrace.

A trifling present to the Brahmin, commonly called Prayaschit, with the performance of a few idle ceremonies, are held as a sufficient atonement for all these crimes; and the delinquent is at once freed from all temporal inconvenience, as well as all dread of future retribution.

My reflections upon these solemn truths has been most painful for many years. I have never ceased to contemplate with the strongest feelings of regret, the obstinate adherence of my countrymen to their fatal system of idolatry, inducing, for the sake of propitiating their supposed Deities, the violation of every humane and social feeling. And this in various instances; but more especially in the dreadful acts of self-destruction and the immolation of the nearest relations, under the delusion of conforming to sacred religious rites.

I have never ceased, I repeat, to contemplate these practices with the strongest feelings of regret, and to view in them the moral debasement of a race, who I cannot help thinking, are capable of better things; whose susceptibility, patience and mildness of character, render them worthy of a better destiny. Under these impressions, therefore, I have been impelled to lay before them genuine translations of parts of their scripture, which inculcates not only the enlightened worship of one God, but the purest principles of morality, accompanied with such notices as I deemed requisite to oppose the arguments employed by the Brahmins in defence of their beloved system. Most earnestly do I pray that the whole may, sooner or later, prove efficient in producing on the minds of Hindoos in general, a conviction of the rationality of believing in and adoring the Supreme Being only; together with a complete perception and practice of that grand and comprehensive moral principle - Do unto others as ye would be done by.


Questions:
1. Is RRMR's description of contemporary Hindoos accurate (obsessed with the morality of diet but not of murder, perjury, etc., etc.)?
2. Assuming that the description is correct, is RRMR's diagnosis correct - that this Hindoo degeneration is because of their polytheism and idolatry? That they are misled by Brahmins?
3. Likewise, is RRMR's treatment correct - namely if Hindoos return to a strict monotheism, their morals will improve?

From my perspective, when Arsha Vidya's Dayananda Saraswati said that one does not need any religion to be a good person, it does not seem relevant how many gods you worship or don't worship and what rituals you perform or don't perform. So I don't understand RRMR's diagnosis or treatment. My modern day diagnosis would be that Hindoos at RMRR's time did not understand Shruti or Smriti. On the other hand, my view is no doubt derivable from the changes that RMRR wrought. So I wonder if the Hindoos of RMRR's time would recognize me as a Hindoo, or would straight out "induce a loss of cast".

For that matter, for you Hindoos here -- would your ancestors of the 1800s accept you as you are today, or "induce a loss of cast"? If you answer the latter, then I think criticism of RRMR needs to be more nuanced; you are after all criticizing him as a Hindu, when Hindoos of his day would not recognize you as one, and the only reason you are recognized as a Hindu today is because of the reforms RRMR and others brought about.


1. Rationally, belief in one God is not any less or any more irrational than belief in many Gods.
2. Personally, Poly-theisms provide a far more nuanced and open minded belief system with lack of conflict around the unknowable. Virtually all mono-theisms (I, C, J) and their negations (Communism, rational atheism etc.) have visited tremendous violence on the world. Something that Poly-theists never did.
3. A lot of modern problems relating to ecology and the modern worlds destruction of our environment would simply not have happened in Polytheistic societies because these societies see the Gods manifesting in and through the natural world.
4. RRR's crib about dietary morals is besides the point.. Everyone in the west today obsesses over the food they eat.. vegan, cruelty free and so on. Why is the Hindu custom of not partaking meat of certain animals any different from these ideas?

RRR's ideas had a time and place. I find them mostly irrelevant and proven false today. 'Superiority of belief in one true God and the moality rising from it...' .... my ass.

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Re: West Bengal - news and strategy thread

Postby Picklu » 29 May 2019 22:27

sudeepj wrote:
Picklu wrote:
Sudeepj, while we were and are ok in most aspect, do you think that there is no need of progress any more? Or around 200 years back, at the time of RRR, there were no need to further progress and everything were same as today? Obviously not. We are continuously evolving as a people.

While most scholars studying that period gives some credit to RRR for making such progress. ... RRR, again has documented evidence in trying and succeeding in eradicating some of them. Does that mean a magical sign in a document did it? No, but it was an important process nonetheless. Because, otherwise, there is no point criminalizing tripple talaq by law.

I hope my view point is clear.


In my view, what you are calling 'progress' is merely changes around the margins of society. What matters more is the narrative surrounding the 'progress'. For too long, Hindu society has been seen as being fundamentally broken, and needing outside intervention, if not by the Whites/Muslims, then by White/Muslim wannabes, with both these characteristics magically melding together in the persona of Negru. (I am an English man by education, muslim by culture..) :-D

Sati, Child Marriage, Dowry, Extremely poor situation of widows, Segregation by caste and untouchability, Multiple marriage where old men from upper caste marrying 100s of girls below puberty are some of the documented problems at that point of time.


I used to think like this.. but now I feel this is merely a spiel fed to us about how bad we were before the British and their reformist friends arrived. Yes, this must have happened.. but not on a scale that is suggested to us. And that similar practices were present in other societies at the time.

Who remembers the people who 'fixed' western problems such as the Salem witch trials or the rather routine and still prevalent discrimination against the Roma/pagan people in Europe today? RRR (and others like him) have a much more prominent position in our pantheon of leaders because we have an implicit assumption that the problems they fixed were essential to us. Without RRR, we would still be a bunch on uncivilized, casteist people, marrying 100s of young girls etc. etc. etc. In this way, RRR and the reformer, progressive group is given narrative dominance over the natives.

It is not right to reject RRR or accuse him of things he did not do.


When RRRs own sister-in-law were forced to be Sati, are we really talking about some fringe element or margin of the society?

There were historical quotes of 100s dying in Sati. And as Dr Tathagata Roy rightfully points out, given how bad we were in documenting our history, who knows how many actually died in country side.

The situation of widows while have improved a lot are still not where we want to be TODAY. Just check how many are left in Mathura and Kashi. So, extrapolating to that time, situation would point to be much worse.

And it is not narrative dominance only in our society. You know how lovingly the catholics see that "German charlatan" Martin Luthar :wink:

sudeepj wrote: It is our duty to question the narrative dominance that allows the state and the elite to 'fix the people'. We are followers of Maryada Purushottam Sri Ram, we dont need fixing.
I would agree on the wordings of the bolded part but disagree on the spirit :)

As of now, we do not have concrete proof that 200 years ago, our society was by and large as good as today and the bad things written about were only a spiel. One empirical proof, we do not see many of those bad practices happening today in the fringe.

And while we do not need fixing, we definitely need improvement. As our sages have said and our PM has recently repeated, CHARAIVETI-CHARAIVETI .
Last edited by Picklu on 29 May 2019 22:33, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: West Bengal - news and strategy thread

Postby sudeepj » 29 May 2019 22:31

The situation of widows while have improved a lot are still not where we want to be TODAY. Just check how many are left in Mathura and Kashi. So, extrapolating to that time, situation would point to be much worse.


This is again atrocity literature produced to keep Hindus in a supine posture. Forget about widows, check how many women are abandoned by their husbands in the West or in the Islamic world. This abandon-ment became such a problem, that a law had to be passed guaranteeing abandoned wives a share in the property, which only husbands could own, after divorce!

[See what I did there?]

It is our duty to question the narrative dominance that allows the state and the elite to 'fix the people'. We are followers of Maryada Purushottam Sri Ram, we dont need fixing.

I would agree to disagree on the bolded part :)


Perhaps we do need fixing.. But we dont need fixing by cultural colonialists, gyanis who visit the west and come back with oodles to spare and so on. We should fix ourselves. And also, we should try to fix others. Have you seen the heroin epidemic in the west? Or the broken family epidemic..

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Re: West Bengal - news and strategy thread

Postby Picklu » 29 May 2019 22:34

Sorry, i made a few edits to my previous post, to expound more. Added similar reference to western society as well.

However, i have no doubt that west needs fixing in many different cases. That however does not make it right for us to continue in the same vein. My point is not to be in supine position on atrocity literature from outside or LeLi gang. No need to take them seriously. However no need to be sensitive about the situation that were prevalent in 200 years ago either. Particularly when we have overcame it. If atrocity counter is needed, it should be done against today's issues like hindu terror.

And, I would rather say that we find the least resistant and quickest path to improve rather than fixating on one particular method. Sometimes, fixing on our own is much more time consuming and difficult. How long do we think we should allow Triple Talaq to continue in the vein that Muslims should fix it on their own? How long before we start correcting RTE and add the quality of education as a parameter irrespective of religion, caste and creed or rather we wait indefinitely for everyone to come on-board voluntarily ? Sama daana danda veda ... all methods are welcome.

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Re: West Bengal - news and strategy thread

Postby SRoy » 29 May 2019 22:48

Gents the thread is getting derailed.

While the RRMR issue will have an impact in Kolkata and immediate suburbs, but I guess this thread is here to address more than that.

Back to the topic please.

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Re: West Bengal - news and strategy thread

Postby A_Gupta » 29 May 2019 22:57

But we dont need fixing by cultural colonialists, gyanis who visit the west and come back with oodles to spare and so on. We should fix ourselves.


Living within the system, 99.999% don't know that fixing is needed. The "fix ourselves" came from exposure to outside ideas, whether the outside ideas came to India or Indians went abroad to encounter them.

RRMR did not try to impose anything even on his son, so calling him a "cultural colonialist" is mistaken. He came by his views entirely within India, made his fortune in India, and went abroad only later. So he was not of that second class either. If RRMR is not of the "we" who should fix ourselves, then who is he?

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Re: West Bengal - news and strategy thread

Postby ramana » 29 May 2019 23:02

I think enough discussion on Raja Ram Mohan Roy.
He helped the journey out of colonial rule.
End of discussion.
Tell us about current Bengal.

Why did Mamata Banerjee withdrew her acceptance of the invitation to PM oath taking ceremony?
And why did she accept in the first place?
I think she did not attend in 2014.

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Re: West Bengal - news and strategy thread

Postby Pratyush » 29 May 2019 23:06

Mamata is crazy and thinking that rejecting Modi will protect her Muslim vote Bank.

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Re: West Bengal - news and strategy thread

Postby Suresh S » 29 May 2019 23:21

I do not want to derail this thread but so much is being said needs to be answered. For starters my views are similar to suddepj. This is from real life experience and not something I read on internet or in a book. Improvement in indian society by all means but definitely not by learning from the west or from Islam absolutely and positively not.

Some things observed very recently in advanced UK. open hex inside a hospital compounds watched by 100s of people. last day of bacheolarhood with friends in attendence and open hex with *hores. Abandoning parents so common in the west. How do I know I have taken care of 1000s of these people.Anyone advocating we should learn from the west please stop right there.Mods please if you want to delete it, ok with me but professors expounding how we should learn from the west without knowing what they are talking about should stop.

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Re: 2019 General Elections : Results Discussion

Postby Picklu » 29 May 2019 23:32

Manish_Sharma wrote:Picklu ji, industrial revolution happened in britain / europe , but without learning english didn't Chinese Japanese learn to make aircrafts trains satellites, their children have been learning physics math chemistry in non-European languages and operate trains...

Our Kumbh is happening even in Yuddhishtir's times it happens every 12 years because its connected with movement of Jupiter, our Sanskrit creating Ancestors even in Yudhishthir's time were having knowledge of Jupiter's timetables,

Al Jabbar learned sanskrit and translated certain parts in Arabic from these translations Brits learned which they called 'Algebra' .

Now to same Sanskrit you or RRR have right to criticize, but Rajiv Malhotra OR BRFites don't have right to criticize RRR, who wrote such disparaging things about our Sanskrit to a foriegn imperialist exploiter Prime Minister.

British said they couldn't find 200 Chinese who were ready to kill their own for foreigners hence were never colonized.

We had Punjabis like Sikhs who fought in world wars bravely for protecting britain they refused to fight hiding in trenches like European soldiers but standing in open.... but these didn't stand and fight by side of Madan Lal Dhingra & Bhagat Singh, same punjabis had kunj behari thapar giving thanks 2 lakh rupees and saropa in the evening to general dyer for committing jallianwala bagh in the morning.

sardar sobha singh father of khushwant gave witness against Bhagat Singh, now if one condemned these people should I as a punjabi Hindu Brahmin feel hurt?

RRR tramples upon not just Sanskrit but whole heritage of our ancestors, BUT HE IS ABOVE CRITICISM?

Maybe you can tolerate Rajiv Malhotra criticism of RRR, in same spirit as you are asking for others to see RRR's despicable actions in context of? I mean if need of time was that RRR tramples upon sanskrit and civilization, then today need of time is to criticize RRR and ilk today!

Here give 7 minutes of your life and listen to this :

https://youtu.be/J_jLftsGoCs



None is denying the rich cultural heritage of Sanskrit. We are talking of something completely different here.

Comparison with China and Japan are meaningless, none had gone through the islamic subjugation that we had gone through.

There is no denying that there were gaps in our society, else first islam and later Brishits won't be able to subjugate us. Our education system for masses were proven to be a failure by our repeated losses with British and before that with islamic invaders. So, someone thought it would be better to get the english education to fix the same. And as the result has shown, the decision was right.

To get his way, he wrote flowery praise to almighty brishits and denigrate sanskrit education. It was a communication to Brits. Why should we judge him based on that language instead of the goals? Particularly, since there were ample proof what his goal was. And let me remind you he was one of the foremost scholars of hindu theology at his time. He studied bible and koran in their original as well. And he started the sankskrit college to study Vedanta for the top most layer of society. From his action, it seems, he figured out everyone does not need the theology of Sanskrit, most should have vocational training version of education and only scholars should do serious study of Vedanta and acted accordingly. And I dare say, the result is in front of us.

About your assertion of us not being able to unite, don't you think it does more harm to push others away? Exactly what RM is doing? Judging a bengali icon of 200 years ago and terming him a stooge and expecting the bongs to support him? A tremendously stupid way to gain supporters, I must say.

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Re: West Bengal - news and strategy thread

Postby Picklu » 29 May 2019 23:32

Ok, just saw the dictates. No more from my side.

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Re: West Bengal - news and strategy thread

Postby Rahul M » 29 May 2019 23:40

Suresh S, why do you think those are ideas worth learning ?? :lol: missing the L&M thread of old ? :rotfl:

Indian civilization thrives on taking the best from what is available. That is why Indian civilization is ancient but it is ever young and dynamic at heart. to stop changing or improving is to die.

as a gentle suggestion, do google why Sri Ramakrishna is called paramhansa.

===================

as a postscript, perhaps the final decider on RRMR's legacy is simply, what percentage of bengal's population converted after brahmo samaj came along. Possibly the lowest among the british centres in India. (of course, credit is not his alone) This, in spite kolkata being the primary seat of british activity, including missionary activity in India.

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Re: West Bengal - news and strategy thread

Postby Lilo » 29 May 2019 23:41

Ok. Thanks for Rahul ji for shifting Bengal related posts .

Can any admin/mod/webmaster restore my deleted post too?
Or have the minimum courtesy of telling me why it got deleted ?

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Re: West Bengal - news and strategy thread

Postby Picklu » 29 May 2019 23:51

Someone on twitter-verse have already pointed out jihadidi herself invited the families of "shaheeds" in singur and nandigram in her own swearing in ceremony, while being "prim n propah" now :rotfl:

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Re: West Bengal - news and strategy thread

Postby krisna » 30 May 2019 00:12

Picklu wrote:^^ Krishna, none of these problems of local and sanskrit language can be attributed to RRR. It was an already prevalent condition at his time.


Actually looks like you have not understood my 2 posts so far on RRM. I am actually defending him showing the times of his period. we are judging from this time period. Only additional comment I made was he had poor geopolitical knowledge of his surrounding areas. He knew more about europe but not the situation a few 100s kms into India.

last word from me on RRR, respecting mods views.

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Re: West Bengal - news and strategy thread

Postby Rahul M » 30 May 2019 00:42

Lilo ji, I would let the mod who deleted it respond, if he wants. suffice to say it must have gone against the basic grain of BRF. no more on this please.


Picklu dada, do you remember around 2000/2001 when TMC was in NDA, MB took a group of TMC victims of CPIM torture (some had their tongues cut-off, some fingers) to delhi to show off to the delhi media ?


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Re: West Bengal - news and strategy thread

Postby ramana » 30 May 2019 03:15

Roll of honor in Bengal of BJP workers murdered



https://twitter.com/DilipGhoshBJP/statu ... 62048?s=19

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Re: West Bengal - news and strategy thread

Postby banrjeer » 30 May 2019 11:47

Suresh S wrote:I do not want to derail this thread but so much is being said needs to be answered. For starters my views are similar to suddepj. This is from real life experience and not something I read on internet or in a book. Improvement in indian society by all means but definitely not by learning from the west or from Islam absolutely and positively not.

Some things observed very recently in advanced UK. open hex inside a hospital compounds watched by 100s of people. last day of bacheolarhood with friends in attendence and open hex with *hores. Abandoning parents so common in the west. How do I know I have taken care of 1000s of these people.Anyone advocating we should learn from the west please stop right there.Mods please if you want to delete it, ok with me but professors expounding how we should learn from the west without knowing what they are talking about should stop.



Heres are lessons to learn from early christianity and Islam.
It's not connected with with religion, morality or spirituality.

The early christian church forbade charging loan interest to other christians. Islam levied Jiziya on infidels and forbade interest on loans to muslims. This is a recipe for parasitic growth vs host populations especially during the initial phase. Many Muslim intellectuals acknowledge that islam's core is more legalistic and not so much spritual or philosophical.

Dharma and the secular shastras covered philosophy, metaphysics, science, morality duty etc but is still clueless on how to transact with rival civilizations. Chanakya neeti was directed at similar political entities but not against military-mercantile empires that colonized India.

While you cant ape the early church or caliphate there are learnings to incorporate.

With any clash of civilizations the terrorized population incorporates some traits of the tormentor. It's curious that Sikhs came to revere a holy book like their muslim enemies did. During RRMRs time bengal was under extended muslim rule and then British. Standing up for the native culture took enourmous will. Reform of undefendable traits and baggage that weighed down hinduism was absolutely necessary.

What the british hoped for was conversion but what transpired was reformation. It's the turning point that kept indic culture alive to live another day.

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Re: West Bengal - news and strategy thread

Postby Picklu » 30 May 2019 12:15

Rahul M wrote:Picklu dada, do you remember around 2000/2001 when TMC was in NDA, MB took a group of TMC victims of CPIM torture (some had their tongues cut-off, some fingers) to delhi to show off to the delhi media ?


No, I might not be in India then. I remember I was in London during 9/11 as well as Godhra.

The current TMC counter of inviting victims of Singur and Nandigram is ridiculous. They are claiming the swearing in was on open ground so anyone could come :rotfl:

Such backtracking will further inflame supporters. The more pressure they are in, the more rubbish they are talking and making it easy for BJP.

However I am not sure taking Manirul in is a good decision. He had lot of bad press due to his involvement in illegal sand mining and the in the killing of 3 brothers. The BJP is following the exact play book of TMC where they took over CPM vote machinery. They will win electorally in the initial days but him, Bharati Ghosh, Arjun Singh et al are bringing in lot of baggage.

In the first meet n greet, NaMo spend lot of time with Arjun and Nishit also got very enthusiastic pat on the back, quite different from others. So looks like BJP is going with "kaante ka takkar" in WB

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Re: West Bengal - news and strategy thread

Postby Picklu » 30 May 2019 12:45

One news I am extremely happy to is the invitation of Arun Pramanik's family.

The MSM is trying to troll BJP with the message that someone died 22 years back on a road accident was still invited.

The idiots do not get that they are spreading the real message that BJP remembers and honors someone who was a RSS worker in 1968 in a totally out of focus state and died on party activities.

Every time I see the way BJP does messaging, it leaves me stunned.

So many times it sends the message through the opposition and MSM itself, case in point nomination of Sadhvi. Cong being old player in the game, didn't take the bait, kept quite for 2 days but the idiots in MSM did the job and rejuvenated the BJP party workers and supporters.

Same is the case of RADAR and email. NaMo baited and Cong and MSM took the hook, line and stinker. 1 whole week they were totally busy in ridiculing instead of election campaigning in the middle of a long election season when keeping the fatigue away and remaining focus were the key. And NaMo didn't say anything that can be proven completely wrong; both can be defended in case gets challenged legally anywhere.

Master class.
Last edited by Picklu on 30 May 2019 12:46, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: West Bengal - news and strategy thread

Postby Lilo » 30 May 2019 12:46

A profound transformation in Bengal

The smug view that ‘Jai Shri Ram’ had no resonance beyond the Hindi-speakers of Burrabazar has been punctured
By Swapan Dasgupta Published 30.05.19

At a time when the electorate has reposed emphatic faith in the leadership of the prime minister, Narendra Modi, there are two sharply contrasting views of West Bengal among India’s opinion-makers that warrant emphasizing.

The first is the consensus of India Inc which holds that the eastern state, once a vibrant centre of industry and commerce, is an infuriatingly difficult place for business. The view is strongly coloured by the personal experiences of the business class that had its origins in Calcutta but left the city in the wake of the political turbulence that began in 1967. Despite the three decades of political stability provided by the Left and attempts by its successor regime to herald an economic regeneration, Bengal’s marginalization from India’s centres of growth has become marked. The belief, bolstered by the bitter experience of Tata Motors in Singur, that there is a profoundly disruptive streak in the state appears to have become conventional wisdom. Thus, while Calcutta is seen as a great place to host cricket matches and even come for a culinary holiday, the charm has faded on the question of investments. No amount of talking up and even the creation of a spectacularly modern Calcutta in Bidhannagar and New Town have been able to arrest this scepticism. Calcutta may well be a great retirement home for the aged but for the young and the talented, personal growth has become dependent on buying the one-way ticket to the growth centres of India and overseas.

There is, however, an alternative perception. For India’s beleaguered Left-liberal intelligentsia, West Bengal has always been the citadel of a ‘progressive’ culture that was perceived to be under attack in the rest of India. The Bengali civic culture, it was held, was enlightened, artistic, compassionate and devoid of sectarian strains. West Bengal, it was held, had very successfully overcome its earlier legacy of unending communal riots and emerged as a centre of amicable co-existence of foods and faiths. Even the decimation of the Left in 2011 and the advent of Mamata Banerjee did not shake this faith in ‘progressive’ and ‘secular’ Bengal. India’s liberal intelligentsia looked away from the violence in the villages and the extortion in the cities to focus on the beef rolls and the hospitality accorded to Pakistani artistes unwelcome in the ‘cow belt’.

The recently concluded general election has affected both perceptions. The spiral of political violence that began with last year’s panchayat polls and continued through all the seven phases of the Lok Sabha election has bolstered the image of an unsettled state that in, many ways, is fast resembling the bad old days in Bihar. Bengal was the only state where candidates were targeted, where there were no-go areas for some campaigners, where roadshows were attacked, where booth capturing was prevalent and where post-poll violence is rampant. Corporate India was wary of the state before the elections and this feeling has only increased after the declaration of results — though there is a sigh of relief that its mercurial chief minister isn’t coming anywhere on the national stage.

However, the election outcome has come as a shocker to India’s liberal intelligentsia. The scale of Modi’s victory — and they deluded themselves into believing that Indian voters would strongly uphold their ‘idea of India’ — was seen as deeply troubling. But disappointment turned to depression at the scale of the Bharatiya Janata Party’s advance in the state. The BJP not only ended the day with 18 members of parliament but its popular vote rose from 17 per cent in 2014 to 40 per cent in 2019. This staggering 23 per cent rise happened despite the lack of any organization and the absence of ‘star’ candidates, not to mention the state government-endorsed intimidation of BJP supporters. Additionally, for the first time since 1951-52, the Left will have no MPs to represent Bengal in the Lok Sabha.

The disaggregated data suggests a profound transformation of West Bengal. The smug view that the BJP’s avowed Hindutva left Bengalis cold and that ‘Jai Shri Ram’ had no resonance beyond the Hindi-speakers of Burrabazar has been punctured. According to the post-poll Lokniti-CSDS survey — seen as the most authentic dissection of voting behaviour by scholars — the BJP secured 57 per cent of the votes of Bengal’s Hindus — 57 per cent of the upper caste vote, 65 per cent of the backward classes vote, 61 per cent of scheduled caste votes and 58 per cent of the adivasi vote.

The implications are striking. First, it is clear that the Trinamul Congress’s narrow majority of 22 of the 42 seats owes disproportionately to its success in winning 70 per cent of the Muslim vote — up from 40 per cent in 2014. TMC also secured 32 per cent of the Hindu vote, an eight per cent fall from 2014. This suggests, first, that the social character of the TMC vote has been significantly altered; and, second, that the voting indicates a deep communal polarization in Bengal. The social character of the Bengal BJP also reveals an unexpected ‘subaltern’ bias. If we assume there is a loose correlation between caste and class, it implies that the BJP has become the choice of poorer Hindus, particularly in the rural areas. The larger consequences for the future of a bhadralok-dominated political culture are worth considering. In terms of social profile, the BJP is increasingly resembling the Left, minus any Muslim support. This is why there is a direct correlation between BJP advance and Left decline.

There is an inclination to extrapolate the Lok Sabha outcome to the state assembly elections due in 2021. Although there will be elements of continuity, the two elections are very different. Certainly, the TMC will need to put its house in order and ponder over why it has lost public support. In particular, it will have to curb the high-handedness and criminal behaviour of its supporters.

On its part, the BJP still has a long way to go. Its organizational networks are patchy and most of the votes it secured were spontaneous assertions of anti-TMC sentiment and support for Modi. At present, the party is still not uniformly embedded in the communities, except perhaps in North Bengal and the districts adjoining Jharkhand. In the districts, the party has got rid of the tag of being an organization of Hindi-speaking ‘outsiders’, but the association still lingers in the bhadralok imagination.

The BJP is still vulnerable to the invocations of Bengali regional pride, and Mamata Banerjee successfully used it in the aftermath of the outrage over the destruction of the bust of Ishwarchandra Vidyasagar just before the final round of polling. It is noteworthy that although the BJP outperformed the TMC in the first six rounds of voting, it drew a blank in Calcutta and southern Bengal in the final round. If it seeks to consolidate its gains in the coming months, it will have to develop a leadership rooted in the state. At present it is excessively dependent on material assistance and political guidance from its national leadership. Hopefully, the larger national exposure of its 18 Lok Sabha MPs will allow for the emergence of a rounded state leadership.

Before the declaration of results on May 23, the Bengal BJP suffered from a crisis of confidence. Accustomed to being on the fringes and habitually drawing a blank in elections, it lacked self-belief. It didn’t know what winning meant. Last week’s spectacular performance may have contributed to a mood change. In the grass roots, BJP workers are suffering but in places they are meeting the TMC challenge frontally. Some of this combativeness, combined with political sagacity, could help it recover the forgotten legacy of Shyama Prasad Mookerjee.

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Re: West Bengal - news and strategy thread

Postby Picklu » 30 May 2019 13:16

Lilo wrote:
A profound transformation in Bengal

The smug view that ‘Jai Shri Ram’ had no resonance beyond the Hindi-speakers of Burrabazar has been punctured
By Swapan Dasgupta Published 30.05.19

...........

The BJP is still vulnerable to the invocations of Bengali regional pride, and Mamata Banerjee successfully used it in the aftermath of the outrage over the destruction of the bust of Ishwarchandra Vidyasagar just before the final round of polling. It is noteworthy that although the BJP outperformed the TMC in the first six rounds of voting, it drew a blank in Calcutta and southern Bengal in the final round. If it seeks to consolidate its gains in the coming months, it will have to develop a leadership rooted in the state. At present it is excessively dependent on material assistance and political guidance from its national leadership. Hopefully, the larger national exposure of its 18 Lok Sabha MPs will allow for the emergence of a rounded state leadership.
...............


I would put emphasis on the material assistance part. One of the reason for the poll violence from voting machinery is because the availability of political workers who are not otherwise gainfully employed. These marginalized low income folks are readily available for hour/day/week basis work and are routinely used by the political parties with offer of regular income in return of muscle power.

This time, the looser faction within TMC could easily use these guys by offering more; it won't create a base for BJP in the state. These guys will again switch for higher pay as long as a political alternate exists.

The second important point is the other similarity between BJP and Left. Similar to BJP, Left used to win in rural areas and loose in Kolkata. Even in hay days of CPM, Kolkata regularly voted for Cong.
But one major difference between Left and BJP is the absence of muslim vote bank. So, BJP doesn't have similar leeway as Left to keep bhadralok intellectuals away. And the bhadraloks are no longer confined to core kolkata, they have spread in all directions. As the gain of 3 seats by TMC post Vidyasagar statue incident shows, BJP would do well if it can win the bhadralok vote.

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Re: West Bengal - news and strategy thread

Postby Rahul M » 30 May 2019 17:25


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Re: West Bengal - news and strategy thread

Postby Picklu » 30 May 2019 18:01



K B Hedgewar, before founding RSS, did his LMS and 1 year internship in National Medical College, Kolkata. Not many bhadraloks are aware of this.

More I see the twitter battle, more it appears to me an attempt to draw up a controversy before the new book launch by Rajiv M. Without a controversy and a confrontation, the circulation would be much less. With all the LeLi gang in retreat, he needed to found another confrontational bunch and he found among bongs.

The letter of RRR that he is claiming as if a new discovery has actually been part of the new book by Sanjiv Sanyal. He simply copied and applied his new "interpretation of historical event". The attempt is not a problem but I wish there were more academic rigor with less holes of the size that elephants easily pass through.

By the way, the above tweet which shows RRR in the daily prayer of RSS is from Aravindan Neelakandan, Co -author of Rajiv M's seminal work Breaking India :mrgreen:

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Re: West Bengal - news and strategy thread

Postby Rahul M » 30 May 2019 18:24

I know. :mrgreen:

very anti-hindu onlee.

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Re: West Bengal - news and strategy thread

Postby Supratik » 30 May 2019 18:51

There is a lot of sewerage entering WB BJP. Trying to run too fast will lead to loss of energy in the long run. Manirul Islam should not be in the party. Arjun Singh is a local strongman. Need to be careful with Mukul's engineering. TMC in BJP colors will not save the state.

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Re: West Bengal - news and strategy thread

Postby Rahul M » 30 May 2019 19:03

precisely, this is how TMC took over from CPM. there's still 2 years left. grow organically.

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Re: West Bengal - news and strategy thread

Postby krisna » 30 May 2019 19:09

picklu, some facts to ponder about

I would put emphasis on the material assistance part. One of the reasons for the poll violence from voting machinery is because of the availability of political workers who are not otherwise gainfully employed. These marginalized low-income folks are readily available for hour/day/week basis work and are routinely used by the political parties with an offer of regular income in return of muscle power.


absolutely true. This is a common reason for violence in many parts of India. these folks are rentable with appropriate amounts. The unemployed people have families many of them not very skilled. Hence to feed their families for basic necessities do all sorts of jobs in return for protection from law and order.


In the western world, they try to keep the unemployment rate <10 preferably <7. Alarm bells ring if things go beyond this. Historical Economists reading thru the European history found some correlation with unemployment and violence especially young population.

To reduce violence down- keep employment levels high for young populations in any country including India.
Hence the emphasis by NaMo all thru his rule 2014-19 and continuing now regarding employment and imparting skills etc etc.

He is probably the only politician to be acutely aware of these basics and actively trying for it.

More I see the twitter battle, more it appears to me an attempt to draw up a controversy before the new book launch by Rajiv M. Without a controversy and a confrontation, the circulation would be much less. With all the LeLi gang in retreat, he needed to found another confrontational bunch and he found among bongs.

The letter of RRR that he is claiming as if a new discovery has actually been part of the new book by Sanjiv Sanyal. He simply copied and applied his new "interpretation of historical event". The attempt is not a problem but I wish there were more academic rigor with less holes of the size that elephants easily pass through.


RM is provocative as he himself says many times. He picks facts and interprets it with his own ways. Many times has hit bulls eye. He has done a lot of times in all his books. He simply uses facts with logical reasoning. he has 10-15 books in pipeline. working on many simultaneously. needs more volunteers to help him. Noithing unusual about it. :lol:

Honestly going thru his works I dont find anything wrong in calling RRR gungadin or sepoys etc. he is clear about it. RRR is having good intentions but not aware of the whole machinery against Hindus/Indians.

Today we do have many data gatherers who are Indians but supply to a whole lot of western researchers who interpret according to their whims and fancies, disregarding the real issue. later it is spun back to India with their interpretations.

RRR became well known, propagated initially by brits and missionaries for their own nefarious purposes. If brits and missionaries were truly great- they would have taken a leaf out of peshwas, GJ rulers RJ and BAPS leaders at that time who were in forefront against Sati and other cultural practices. They came down significantly with the threat of muslim invasion receded.



Feel it is the bhadralok just like city-bred elites in other cities - Their livelihood and importance is reduced with the arrival of a OBC person called NaMo who has started to clean the stables. Nothing unusual about it.
In this process, a lot of dust is being raised- some good some bad. They will settle.

Feel the RRR supporters have to cool down and allow things to flow it will settle on its own. :((

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Re: West Bengal - news and strategy thread

Postby Picklu » 30 May 2019 19:55

krisna wrote:
Honestly going thru his works I dont find anything wrong in calling RRR gungadin or sepoys etc. he is clear about it. RRR is having good intentions but not aware of the whole machinery against Hindus/Indians.

Today we do have many data gatherers who are Indians but supply to a whole lot of western researchers who interpret according to their whims and fancies, disregarding the real issue. later it is spun back to India with their interpretations.

RRR became well known, propagated initially by brits and missionaries for their own nefarious purposes. If brits and missionaries were truly great- they would have taken a leaf out of peshwas, GJ rulers RJ and BAPS leaders at that time who were in forefront against Sati and other cultural practices. They came down significantly with the threat of muslim invasion receded.



Feel it is the bhadralok just like city-bred elites in other cities - Their livelihood and importance is reduced with the arrival of a OBC person called NaMo who has started to clean the stables. Nothing unusual about it.
In this process, a lot of dust is being raised- some good some bad. They will settle.

Feel the RRR supporters have to cool down and allow things to flow it will settle on its own. :((


Krishna, this is the 2nd time you are stating RRR had good intentions but Brits mislead him. As of now, there are no such proof of his misdeed other than the language used in his letter.

He gave much less to Brits (conversion to xtianity was miniscule) but took much more from them (stopped the practice of Sati in British India and also ensured English functional education for the common folks of india). So, who mislead and manipulated whom?

He all thorough out refused to convert to Xtian, also opened a sanskrit college for higher level of vedanta education in sanskrit. Via Brahma Samaj, he ensured that hindus will remain in another offshoot of hinduism rather than converting fully to abrahamic faith. Also let's be honest, gurukul education in sanskrit was not something new in india at that point of time and it was in pits in its efficacy to educate the masses. If that education was so good, the situation our ancestors in our own country would not be so bad that they were subjugated first by muslims and then by english. Or do you think everything was fine, there were no systemic issue and only because of a handful of traitors we were down?

And no, supporting RRR does not mean Brits were good. Brits still have lot to answer. And they had nefarious intentions, that too not in doubt. But because they were bad, RRR also must be bad only does not seem sound reasoning.

That RRR didn't know about the condition of India was also not correct as many have already pointed out. Yes, during his time Railways and Telegraph was not there but that cuts both ways. Many have pointed out that the Meenakshi Jain's work that provides statistics on occurances of Sati have serious flaws for exactly the same reason. There are swiping generalization in that work using only the available sources which would be woefully inadequate to consider complete statistics. In the absence of Telegraph and Railways, the actual occurrences which have not been documented would be magnitude of order higher. It is much more likely that RRR being a contemporary was much more acutely aware of the situation than the current historians.

Also one other major point that is being ignored is the difference between dayabhag and mitrakkshara legal system prevalent during that time. The states which had banned sati earlier was following mitrakkshara and in that system less financial interest in enforcing Sati compared to dayabhag which were prevalent in bengal and other parts of British India. So again, the importance of stopping the practice in Bengal would be much much more.

All these have been pointed out multiple times. With sources. In this thread itself. And no one has been able to counter any of this logically.

The issue is people simply coming and stating, "based on my reading of Rajiv M and TI about the language he used in his petition to british, RRR is <gungadin, sepoy, stooge etc etc chose your epithet>" and that simply does not pass muster as far as academic discussion goes.

The insinuation that Bongs who are countering this are parocial is distasteful because multiple non-bongs have countered it, both in twitter and in this thread. It would be good if someone can actually counter the points raised in support of RRR instead of saying Rajiv M said so or TI said so.

And there is nothing to RRR supporters to cool down here. As of now, every point raised by Rajiv M has been countered, the rest is only noise going on by Rajiv M supporters. And I dare say, when the things settle, RRR will remain where he is now despite Rajiv M's effort since he does not give any new information and his interpretations leave a lot to be explained and does not pass logical test.

On the other hand the result of his actions talk on behalf of RRR. There would be quite a few sanskrit gurukul in India today. How many of Rajiv M and his supporters' progeny study there instead of English education would always settle the debate.

Anyway, enough from my side. :) Already bradmins asked to stop and next i guess soon the danda would come flying. So, won't respond any more unless there is some new counterpoint to these arguments.

Out. Peace. It was a pleasure having the discussion with you guys in a civil manner.

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Re: West Bengal - news and strategy thread

Postby ramana » 30 May 2019 21:14

Picklu and Kati, I am a data driven person.
So had one of my friends go through the election results in Bengal this time.
The big picture is TMC is confined to Kolkata and near by region.

Like Shah Alam II was confined to Delhi.

BJP has won the rural areas comprehensively. In big picture terms the periphery is won and only core is remaining.
BJP won the seats in first two phases.
TMC started winning from phase 3, continued in 4,5.
BJP overtook in 6 and got zero/Sibbal seats in 7.

Second point is Jihadidi margins were comprehensive.
So why did she do violence and bring bad name?

I think she got unnerved in Phase 6.

See district administration: Collector, SP and Intelligence officers know the poll outcome on that day itself due to ears to the ground. And she is their head of government.
So after every phase she knew.
But was silly to destroy an iconic statue to blame her opponents.
In phase 7 her win margins were comprehensive.


I will tweet these pictures and you all can see them.

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Re: West Bengal - news and strategy thread

Postby Lilo » 30 May 2019 21:15

Last edited by Lilo on 30 May 2019 21:33, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: West Bengal - news and strategy thread

Postby ramana » 30 May 2019 21:15

What this means is TMC rein of terror is over. Could be sooner than 2021.

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Re: West Bengal - news and strategy thread

Postby ramana » 30 May 2019 21:16



Amit Shah did Jai Bajrang Bali and singed her in Bengal.

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Re: West Bengal - news and strategy thread

Postby Picklu » 30 May 2019 21:31

ramana wrote:What this means is TMC rein of terror is over. Could be sooner than 2021.


That's not a doubt any more. Under pressure, she is talking rubbish and hastening her fall.

But, the win in rural areas are not because people like BJP, it was more of anti TMC. People were angry with her, that's what has unnerved her.

Like any megalomaniac, she thought her politics of dole would win over heart and mind but her partymen stole a lot from coffer and didn't allow people to take corrective action in local elections. So they are taking it on her and TMC.

This shouting of Jai Sri Ram is not because people in Bengal have suddenly discovered Hindu Religion. It is an expression of defiance with intention of trolling her in public. Just like what happens to every dictator when they are down. People start insulting them. Same is happening in WB right now.

So, i do not see a problem for 2021 but, after that 2024 will come and then 2026. To win them, BJP would need a lot more than the electoral engineering of Mukul Roy financed by BJP central. Else people would switch as swiftly and smoothly as they have done in 2019.

And if BJP does not go for Bengali Heart and Mind, it would make the same mistake that Khan Market Gang has done i.e. to think we can say/do whatever and people would still vote for us because there is no alternative.

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Re: West Bengal - news and strategy thread

Postby Lilo » 30 May 2019 21:34

Piklu ji,
Dont miss the single kid's voice saying it loud at @1:09 mark in clip.

She is claiming in the video that its not Bengalis who are chanting Jai Shree Ram but its the outsider BJP gundas.
She is not an amateur in political messaging so i wonder what is the political strategy behind these public outbursts of Jihadidi against Jai Shree Ram slogans...

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Re: West Bengal - news and strategy thread

Postby Picklu » 30 May 2019 21:45

ramana wrote:Picklu and Kati, I am a data driven person.
So had one of my friends go through the election results in Bengal this time.
The big picture is TMC is confined to Kolkata and near by region.

Like Shah Alam II was confined to Delhi.

BJP has won the rural areas comprehensively. In big picture terms the periphery is won and only core is remaining.
BJP won the seats in first two phases.
TMC started winning from phase 3, continued in 4,5.
BJP overtook in 6 and got zero/Sibbal seats in 7.

Second point is Jihadidi margins were comprehensive.
So why did she do violence and bring bad name?

I think she got unnerved in Phase 6.

See district administration: Collector, SP and Intelligence officers know the poll outcome on that day itself due to ears to the ground. And she is their head of government.
So after every phase she knew.
But was silly to destroy an iconic statue to blame her opponents.
In phase 7 her win margins were comprehensive.


I will tweet these pictures and you all can see them.


Ramana, to understand her rage, you need to look closure to the margins at the Assembly constituency level. The margins in city constituencies are small whereas margins in certain rural constituencies (Muslim dominated) are quite large and winning one such rural constituency is essentially covering loss of multiple small margin constituencies in the same parliamentary constituency. Hence the fear is that in AE, BJP is already winning in most seats. Take for example Srirampur. TMC own that seat. Now it includes 7 assembly constituency and in 5 of them, BJP is ahead.

That is simply stunned her. In fact the corporation ward where she resides, BJP is ahead in number.

Even the actual God would be rattled in such case, she merely thinks herself God :mrgreen:

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Re: West Bengal - news and strategy thread

Postby Supratik » 30 May 2019 21:57

BJP 128 AS, TMC 145 AS. Just 18 seats necessary in AE.

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Re: West Bengal - news and strategy thread

Postby krisna » 30 May 2019 23:47

Picklu, my response.
Krishna, this is the 2nd time you are stating RRR had good intentions but Brits mislead him. As of now, there are no such proof of his misdeed other than the language used in his letter.

I repeat--likley RRR had good intentions. Brits and missionaries led him the garden path. They need an opening to go for conversions, he gave them to enter into Hindus culture thru him. He was made a stalwart so that other Hindus will listen to him. Hence he was coopted as he was more malleable open minded. I am afraid RRR supporters don’t have the mindset to see thru this.
Irrespective of RRR, missionaries have been operating in India for centuries. This is well proven fact. Check the letters to church from missionaries over centuries with reference to India. They made little headway in conversions with or without RRR or brahmo samaj.

He gave much less to Brits (conversion to xtianity was miniscule) but took much more from them (stopped the practice of Sati in British India and also ensured English functional education for the common folks of india). So, who mislead and manipulated whom?


1) Hindus got nothing in return except blame for sati and other practices which was already disappearing from Indian landscape.
2) Also lost out Indian languages . English entered thru front door with RRR championing it without much understanding of the whole geopolitical situation.
Instead of championing Indian languages with science and tech and other ideas translated to local languages, he adopted english for the masses.Normally children are taught local languages by parents. Making them read and write in local language is cheaper than educating english. Literacy was high but english wrought havoc with destruction of traditional education schools. This helped brits in extending the rule in India.
Irrespective of RRR efforts, brits would have done this. But RRR made it easier for them. IOW despite good intentions he opened the doors for developing future gungadins.
Even today, despite RRR english literacy is less than 1% at 1947 and <10% in 2019. This has continued today with Indian GOI championing its growth for over 70 years. results are all for see .brits mus be laughing their ass*s off. Thery did not spend much money on english eductaion relative to India post 1947.If India had invested in Indian languages with link as sanskrit, we would have had over 90% literacy easily with local language of each state prominence.But influence of english is enormous and damaging India at multiple levels.

RRR alone is not responsible for this but one of the many.
We have established gungadin and sepoys at many levels. This is a fact whether we acknowledge it or not . we have in effect--our mental colonization issue.



He all thorough out refused to convert to Xtian, also opened a sanskrit college for higher level of vedanta education in sanskrit. Via Brahma Samaj, he ensured that hindus will remain in another offshoot of hinduism rather than converting fully to abrahamic faith. Also let's be honest, gurukul education in sanskrit was not something new in india at that point of time and it was in pits in its efficacy to educate the masses. If that education was so good, the situation our ancestors in our own country would not be so bad that they were subjugated first by muslims and then by english. Or do you think everything was fine, there were no systemic issue and only because of a handful of traitors we were down?


Does not pass the records available at that time. Indians were never enamoured of christianity for centuries due to pluarlity in mind and thoughts. We already had too many god and prophets etc. They took jesus in their stride. No strong affinity. There are many other reasons. This made missionaries mad. RRR did not do anything special to prevent conversions.
IOW it can be argued that RRR by his study of christianity and Brahmo samaj made Indians vulnerable to predatory tactics of christian missionaries. Many Hindus were made aware thru him.Made them have good feel of christianity so that missionaries could propagate easily about jesus. Even this did not help in christianity propagation is because of Hindus and not brahmo samaj.

Supporting RRR does not mean Brits were good. Brits still have lot to answer. And they had nefarious intentions, that too not in doubt. But because they were bad, RRR also must be bad only does not seem sound reasoning.

This is your way. Not mine. I am clear so do many others- despite noble intentions he sucked to brits and enabled their nose to poke into Hindus. They would have done anyhow but RRR made it easier thru front door.Hence they made sure he was made famous-English educated yindoo. This has continued to this day.

That RRR didn't know about the condition of India was also not correct as many have already pointed out. Yes, during his time Railways and Telegraph was not there but that cuts both ways. Many have pointed out that the Meenakshi Jain's work that provides statistics on occurrences of Sati have serious flaws for exactly the same reason. There are swiping generalization in that work using only the available sources which would be woefully inadequate to consider complete statistics. In the absence of Telegraph and Railways, the actual occurrences which have not been documented would be magnitude of order higher. It is much more likely that RRR being a contemporary was much more acutely aware of the situation than the current historians.

IOW blame Indian sources but accept british sources. WOW. RRR probabaly believed his brits masters rather than his own fellow Indians.

Also one other major point that is being ignored is the difference between dayabhag and mitrakkshara legal system prevalent during that time. The states which had banned sati earlier was following mitrakkshara and in that system less financial interest in enforcing Sati compared to dayabhag which were prevalent in bengal and other parts of British India. So again, the importance of stopping the practice in Bengal would be much much more.

Many of these related to threats of muslim rule with kidnappings rapes etc. Hinduism per se has no sanction of sati/jauhar. It crept into the society due to islamic invasion is well documented. Hindusim has no rigid rules. It is dynamic and moves with times. Due to large population base, changes in society take time to adapt and move on. In the entire Hindu history, more of organic evolution of ideas and practices have occurred than revolution with extreme violence which is marked with abrahamic religions. We need to understand christian missionaries tactics during RRR time and how they made british parliament adopt certain Hindu practices to gain legitimacy amongst Hindus. RRR was a useful tool for them. He became a sepoy unfortunately. Recall britishers came to India for TRADING but ended up RULING us politically because of people like RRR wityh good intentions made them interfere in our internal parctices.


All these have been pointed out multiple times. With sources. In this thread itself. And no one has been able to counter any of this logically.

The issue is people simply coming and stating, "based on my reading of Rajiv M and TI about the language he used in his petition to british, RRR is <gungadin, sepoy, stooge etc etc chose your epithet>" and that simply does not pass muster as far as academic discussion goes.

It is very clear as I mentioned earlier I my posts and now also, he might have not known the actual results of his actions. He had good intentions but results prove otherwise. It is not his fault, likely had poor geopolitical knowledge.

The insinuation that Bongs who are countering this are parocial is distasteful because multiple non-bongs have countered it, both in twitter and in this thread. It would be good if someone can actually counter the points raised in support of RRR instead of saying Rajiv M said so or TI said so.


And there is nothing to RRR supporters to cool down here. As of now, every point raised by Rajiv M has been countered, the rest is only noise going on by Rajiv M supporters. And I dare say, when the things settle, RRR will remain where he is now despite Rajiv M's effort since he does not give any new information and his interpretations leave a lot to be explained and does not pass logical test.


There are many RRR supporters and those who speak against RRR actions. Need to remove noise and search for facts and logical reasoning. Honest criticism is needed and not blind devotion. We cannot change history. But definitely, we can learn from his actions and reassess our own way of doing things so that we help our people better.


On the other hand the result of his actions talk on behalf of RRR. There would be quite a few sanskrit gurukul in India today. How many of Rajiv M and his supporters' progeny study there instead of English education would always settle the debate.


Could have avoided the last sentenece- To comment about RM and supporters studying english and not sanskrit. Easy to derail arguments IMHO.serves no purpose other than inflaming/baiting.
Actually RRR actions gave a fillip to destruction of sankrit gurukuls across India. Brits would have done it but RRR english advocacy made it easier.

Anyway, enough from my side. Already bradmins asked to stop and next i guess soon the danda would come flying. So, won't respond any more unless there is some new counterpoint to these arguments.

Out. Peace. It was a pleasure having the discussion with you guys in a civil manner.

Thanks. agree 100%. we need to engage civilly despite our differences.
We all learn from each other way of looking at things as we all want to do good for our nation.


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