Kerala, Andhra and Tamil Nadu - news and strategy thread

Bart S · Post by **Bart S** » 24 May 2019 17:40

^^10 crore is 100 million, much more than the entire population of TN, so doesn't sound right. Even 1 crore (10 million) would be unlikely as 1 in 7 people in TN would have to have requested and been approved for a Mudra loan. Maybe 1 lakh. The CBE-Tiruppur belt has a lot of SMEs and there was real pain post GST, they are just starting to rebound. That is probably worked against them.

Anyways, if BJP expects to get any credit for stuff that they do at the national level, they need to have genuine local leadership who can get the message across. They relied more on ADMK who did a really half-hearted and effort at that.

sudhan · Post by **sudhan** » 24 May 2019 17:42

IMO there are multiple issues that need tackling.. sorry if some are repeats

1. The central leadership is unable to directly reach out to the voters, due to language and also due to weak grass roots level manpower.
2. Information dissemination happens through opinion makers, these range from actors, directors(with rabid separatist mentality), media anchors to nameless faceless meme makers, who create clever memes deriding NaMo and BJP. It gets lapped up by a hungry and hooked public
3. The local BJP leadership has no 'Ah! I could trust him/her' face.. everyone is seen as a sellout.. Rajnikanth could probably help even the playfield here, if he doesn't chicken out..
4. The Tamil Nationalist parties are slowing creeping up the influence ladder.. they have a sizeable grassroots manpower and they are vocal online. They lionize murderers like Prabakaran and Veerappan.. most importantly they don't shy away from violence..
5. All these play into the hands of the actual enemies.. Pakis, during the capture of Wg Cdr Abhi, the most popular narrative circulated was, unbelievably the paki story (translated to chaste tamizh). No wonder the fu(kers are trying to find a opening into India thru TN (From SL)

BJP has their tasks cut out.. If TN needs to do a Ghar wapsi, it needs dedicated and relentless Chanakyan attention

A saffron surge like in WB is needed there..

Sridhar K · Post by **Sridhar K** » 24 May 2019 17:43

From the Twitter thread with other brfites
On every problem, the DMK eco system successfully built a narrative that 1. EPS Govt is a modi proxy and all shortcomings of the state Govt is attributable to Modi. 2. Every issue genuine/bogus is handiwork of BJP who is out to bring TN down. 1/2
Despite best intentions, TN BJP was clueless, powerless and reactive. Central Command seemed uninterested beyond sending NS for major damage control. Needed a strong local leader who can handle this tactfully and to be fair, there are not much options

Bart/Chandrasekharan
Posters and Flex banners for Pulwama Martyrs was seen in many nook and corners of TN. Abhi was also popular but that does not translate into votes.

ADMk did not focus on the MP election like they did with the by election except in the case of Panneerselvams son who is the lone ADMK winner. There is pent up anger against AdMk and these guys were primarily focussed on serving for next two years and even fall back to DMK as I heard personally from someone who knows OPS. In constituencies where PMk DMDK contested ADMK machinery was completely absent including my own. PMk was sabotaged by in fighting after Kaduvetti Gurus death
In Kongu belt where ADMK was supposed to sweep, I hear that there is frustration against EPS amongst Gounder folks since they found him to have become too arrogant and not taking care of their caste

Ponnar and Tamizhisai were defeated by EJ/BIF machinization
H Raja despite his enormous contribution to the Hindi causes is quite unpopular with non Sangh crowd.

Coimbatore and Ramnad had very good Candidates and was surprised.

Nandhakumar Saar
Personal anecdotes from my grand father whose best friend was Rajajis close aide: Rajajis hatred for Sathyamurthy and his protege Kamaraj is one of the biggest contributor to the growth of DK and downfall of Cong in TN. Rajaji was a mentor of EVR and in Rajajis funeral, EVR was in tears and was mocked by MuKa and Anna. There were several instances where Rajaji defended DK actions with the Congress high comman
There seems to a bit of elitism of Rajaji who considered Kamaraj who was son of the soil type like Modi. My dad grew up in sprawling Gandhi Ashram in Thiruchengodu which was Rajajis HQ

Sudhan
+108

chandrasekaran · Post by **chandrasekaran** » 24 May 2019 17:46

Bart S wrote:^^10 crore is 100 million, much more than the entire population of TN, so doesn't sound right. Even 1 crore (10 million) would be unlikely as 1 in 7 people in TN would have to have requested and been approved for a Mudra loan.

Sorry I stand corrected. Its 1 crore+ disbursal's. Please see here. 71,000 crore is not a small amount. Wondering where they all went...

https://www.thehindubusinessline.com/ec ... 665540.ece

Added later, please see this as well - for those that know Tamil. TN tops the beneficiary list in almost all the central schemes.
https://twitter.com/Hariindic/status/11 ... 12/photo/1

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 24 May 2019 18:15

Dumal wrote:
Karan M wrote:I had mentioned this before but ppl got upset. Using my own non scientific sampling using social media, friends etc, had said TN, AP, KL had fallen furthest from mainstream in terms of being badly affected by anti Modi, anti-BJP, divisive propaganda regarding "cowbelt", "naarthies", "casteist BJP etc". And this would reflect in voting.
All of these may be present as part of the murky undercurrents at any point of time and not unique to TN, for politicians like MuKa/CBN to exploit and exaggerate when needed. I don’t see anything irredeemable or anywhere close to that here. Had DMK been part of the NDA, we can be sure none of these divisive politics would have gained as much currency.

Right now, they are pretty unique to TN and to some extent AP, in my own sample group. Lets just look at one example. Multiple WA groups, FB groups etc.

Nine times out of ten, the anti Modi/BJP message on *any* random topic is coming from ppl from 2-3 states.Keeping demographics about background, faith etc apart.

And it comes for no reason. Usually if some guy posts some rah-rah stuff for Modi/BJP, you'd expect his opponent to speak up. Not in these cases. Discussion is on what x did on z day, and got drunk, ha ha ha. Suddenly 3 messages mocking Modi/BJP./cow-belt naarthies.

Its literally an obsession. Funnily enough it peaked around month or so back and in election season has reduced.

I suspect the disaffection is a targeted propaganda campaign literally inducing a fear psychosis in some groups and we best be aware of it, because ordinary folks dont have time and energy to do detailed analysis of how they are being fed propaganda.

Bart S · Post by **Bart S** » 24 May 2019 18:19

Karan M wrote:
Dumal wrote:
All of these may be present as part of the murky undercurrents at any point of time and not unique to TN, for politicians like MuKa/CBN to exploit and exaggerate when needed. I don’t see anything irredeemable or anywhere close to that here. Had DMK been part of the NDA, we can be sure none of these divisive politics would have gained as much currency.
Right now, they are pretty unique to TN in my own sample group. Lets just look at one example. Multiple WA groups, FB groups etc. Nine times out of ten, the anti Modi/BJP message on *any* random topic is coming from ppl from 2-3 states. And it comes for no reason. Usually if some guy posts some rah-rah stuff for Modi/BJP, you'd expect his opponent to speak up. Not in these cases. Discussion is on what x did on z day, and got drunk, ha ha ha. Suddenly 3 messages mocking Modi/BJP./cow-belt naarthies.

Its literally an obsession. Funnily enough it peaked around month or so back and in election season has reduced.

One thing that is unique to TN is the extreme level/popularity of meme-making. Started out as movie-based humour memes but the political interests quickly latched on to it. Much of it is just mindless forwarding by a few idiots and people are too polite to tell them off. Which is why my ex-company Whatsapp group had to split into two groups, one that allows politics and one that doesn't. Probably why you are seeing a preponderance of such social media posts from TN, but don't read too much into it, the situation on the ground is not that different from other states who are at the same levels of development.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 24 May 2019 18:25

It wasn't just memes, but picking fights. For instance a guy posts on stock market. Before you know it, the same chaps who fwd stuff turn it into a full blown attack on Modi, Govt and then start mocking the guy who expected good returns etc. Very bizarre, both the fear, aggression. So incorrect of us to believe all this meme stuff, is not having an impact on people's belief systems IMHO.

In one group, a newcomer said, if Modi comes back, should I sell all my property because he will destroy the country - long rant follows based on some misplaced understanding of stock market, Ambani, Adani etc. Point is the propaganda has created a real issue. He was serious.

Note these are otherwise normal, good natured, friendly people.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 24 May 2019 18:27

In the longer term, this means BJP will find it really hard to combat this perception in people's psyche.

Bart S · Post by **Bart S** » 24 May 2019 18:51

A lot of misplaced understanding comes from targeted memes. For e.g Mudra was mentioned a few posts back. There is actually a Tamil video (slickly done with humour etc to make it watchable) made by someone, widely circulated on social media, that states that Mudra is a scam where the real money is made by BJP linked persons who run the website.

The real issue is that there is no local counter to those memes, the stuff that the few pro-BJP people forward is crudely done and easily identified as rabble rousing and discarded. The most effective thing would be for BJP folk to put out positive (as opposed to negative bashing of others, which isn't well received) that slowly and steadily build a positive view of their accomplishments.

Dumal · Post by **Dumal** » 24 May 2019 18:52

Bart S wrote:
Karan M wrote:
Right now, they are pretty unique to TN in my own sample group..
One thing that is unique to TN is the extreme level/popularity of meme-making..

I personally know some former school mates who are now fairly advanced level crazies in the DMK-led meme war unleashed over the entire 5 years since 2014. The ones I know are just one level down from professional writers (in chaste Tamil), who I am sure are on DMK payroll and do this on full-time basis. Those like my friend are probably even more full-time I.e., 8+ hours a day on Facebook heavily and sporadically bombard WhatsApp on a daily basis. There were also a few PAAPies, even in the depths of TN towns and villages, who would do similar FB/WA barrages based on AAP’s daily feed but translated professionally into Tamil. The PAAPies went quiet ever since Kujli went quieter after the Punjab drubbing.

The point I was making was that these hyperactive SM warriors can and will quieten down if they are not funded or supported by the political leaders, since much of what they do is brutal twisting of truth that will be obvious even to their own families/children.

I have also dissected and traced some of the more evil memes to find that they are very well-networked among the commie/left/ej, the Con/AAP and other such divisive BIF groups to the extent the some ideas and images come from PDF, the paki def forum, and other obscure paki online tv shows onto the local language memes within days and spread like wildfire for a day or two until they lose momentum.

At the risk of repeating, my take is that if tomorrow Stalin/DMK were to join NDA, the tap would be turned off and the volume of SM trolling of BJP would drop tremendously, though the other BIF forces may keep it going but without the impact you see now.

Bart S · Post by **Bart S** » 24 May 2019 18:54

Dumal wrote: At the risk of repeating, my take is that if tomorrow Stalin/DMK were to join NDA, the tap would be turned off and the volume of SM trolling of BJP would drop tremendously, though the other BIF forces may keep it going but without the impact you see now.

Totally agree, and that was the point that I was trying to make as well.

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 24 May 2019 18:58

UlanBatori wrote:Quoting hnair:
Kummanam-chettan has vast name recognition since '80s
Beg to differ. He may have name-recognition among CPI(M) goons, and the yindoo Faithful and perhaps among the Al Qaeda(Al Malloo gang) but ask some propah convent-ejjikated / Christ Callege grads who form the bulk of the "educated" yindoo lower middle through upper wealth classes and u will get a reaction like asking Pumpkiji about Smritiji in 2014. He is not in the Quiz / IAS exam mug-list unlike Prince Harry's bambino. This is what needs to change.
First, they don't see themselves as "Hindu" only as "agnostic/World Citizens" except at birth,marriage (if that) and death and taking brats to rice-eating. Don't know why they bother, could take said brats to rooh afzah/grits eating for all the smarts that they exhibit (sorry!!)
How to change this?
The big uncertainty for E6C when KR promised to come to lunch (in a neighborhood festooned with CPIM hammer/sickle red flags and ppl sitting around by the wayside doing census) was whether he could also leave safely. Then again, they were afraid of him, because all they had heard was he was "violentRSS".

No sirji! I highlighted the 80s, because his face was front page news in all newspaper of the era. Kerala avidly used to read its newspapers, down to the last granny and grandson. Nowadays it has merely shifted to online media. Youth clearly knows its Kummanam from Kunjakko Boban.

Your assessment that Kummanam as an unknown face among youth, except among kammies is 400% wrong. His opponents have made him famous and they are not commies as you say, but the church/clergy of Kerala. There are numerous edicts against the gent. The one reason he was shunted out to Mizoram is because of whispers that the church elders put that as a condition to support some of the BJP candidates. But looks like they had to recall him after the Sabarimala peaked.

Btw, no one will touch KR, not even in Kannur - the man is known for his peaceful image and even more important, there will be hell to pay in Trivandrum

There are some guarantees that even kannur kammies dont mess with. I cannot go further. Maybe next time the E6C graces my kave kamplex in the hill.

LakshmanPST · Post by **LakshmanPST** » 24 May 2019 19:34

The main problem in these 3 states is simple--->
Local media which is heavily controlled by local parties... The bile that came out of these media houses against BJP is too much... Lack of strong ground level cadre is the second reason...
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Regarding AP, I feel what happened now is a good thing in the long term...
Unlike the other 2 states, the hatred for BJP in AP is not due to some ideological issue, like Dravidian identity or Narthie domination kind of shit...
The main reason for hatred is that Modi promised Special Status but 'ignored' it after coming to power...
I have been personally against that demand, but BJP failed to convince common ppl about how the Special Package (which they promised, and was accepted and later rejected by CBN) is better than the promise of Special Status...
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One thing most Non-Telugu ppl do not know is that TDP's ecosystem in AP is far stronger than any ecosystem in India... Proportionately, it is stronger and more organised than even Congress ecosystem... The TDP media is just too strong and it is not ideological media like in TN...
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The main issue that happened in AP is, CBN promised lot of things way beyond the budget of AP and couldn't fulfill them obviously due to lack of funds... So, he successfully put the entire blame on Modi (not on BJP, but specifically on Modi's supposed arrogance) for not giving money as per his demands... Even though he lost the election, this narrative went quite deep into common ppl's minds...
This narrative is repeated in 10-15 news channels and 10 newspapers daily, for 1 and half years non-stop since 2018... Not to mention the WhatsApp forwards and other social media which started it much much earlier...
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There are also lot of provisions in AP Reorganization Act, many of which were delayed due to technicalities and lack of cooperation from State govt.... Strictly speaking BJP fulfilled more than 80% of these promises, but common ppl think that BJP didn't fulfill even 1% of these provisions...
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To give an example of bile against Modi,
State Govt. didn't submit the revised Project DPRs for Visakhapatnam and Vijayawada Metros based on revised Metro policy till date... Without these DPRs nothing will move ahead including release of funds...
On Budget day, you would hear news that Central Govt. allocated some 5000 Crores to Mumbai or Bangalore Metros (which are in advanced stages of Construction)...
Within an hour, you get WhatsApp forwards saying, "Modi gave 5000 crores to Mumbai metro, but none to Vizag metro... Modi hates AP..."
No one will tell these ppl that State Govt. never submitted revised DPRs...
Even if some local BJP leader says it in a press conference, the news will be buried in some 19th page bottom corner... But main page headlines will be quotes from Chandra Babu about 'injustice' being done to State...
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This is just one example... Such news was continuously pushed into people's minds starting from as early as 2015 on a variety of issues...
Though NCB came out of NDA only in 2018, social media pages were targetting Modi since late 2015 itself soon after Modi came for Foundation Laying of Amaravathi but left without announcing Special Status...
CBN started laying ground for exit from NDA then itself... It came into mainstream media only in 2018 after he came out of NDA officially, after which it amplified 1000000 times...
----
AP is similar to Karnataka when it comes to ppl's mindset and attitude wrt Hindutva... There is also lot of awareness about Evangelical activities... Demographics are also not as bad as Kerala or even TN...
For the future of AP, Chandra Babu should be finished politically... His ecosystem in AP should crumble... Already Chandra Babu's son Nara Lokesh lost MLA elections... After Chandra Babu, the successor is not yet ready... Time is ripe to end his career...
It is also a good thing that Pawan Kalyan (the political Kamal Hassan of AP) lost terribly in this election...
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BJP is facing only a misinformation campaign in AP, unlike in TN where it is facing ideological campaign...
I know a lot ppl who support some version of Hindutva, but voted TDP only becoz. they believe CBN is better than Evangelist Jagan... Some voted TDP becoz. they believe (which is also right) that voting BJP will only split votes which will indirectly help Jagan... And most of these ppl believe TDP narrative about 'injustice' to AP by Modi...
That's the reason why BJP vote % is just 0.9% in AP...
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A political vacuum is going to be created in AP in coming years and BJP should occupy that place... If they can counter the misinformation campaign and end CBN career, AP will be another Karnataka for BJP...
The state unit need a total revamp and ground level cadre should be built... But there is hope...

ShyamSP · Post by **ShyamSP** » 24 May 2019 21:16

LakshmanPST wrote:The main problem in these 3 states is simple--->
Local media which is heavily controlled by local parties... The bile that came out of these media houses against BJP is too much... Lack of strong ground level cadre is the second reason...
-
Regarding AP, I feel what happened now is a good thing in the long term...
Unlike the other 2 states, the hatred for BJP in AP is not due to some ideological issue, like Dravidian identity or Narthie domination kind of shit...
The main reason for hatred is that Modi promised Special Status but 'ignored' it after coming to power...
I have been personally against that demand, but BJP failed to convince common ppl about how the Special Package (which they promised, and was accepted and later rejected by CBN) is better than the promise of Special Status...
-
One thing most Non-Telugu ppl do not know is that TDP's ecosystem in AP is far stronger than any ecosystem in India... Proportionately, it is stronger and more organised than even Congress ecosystem... The TDP media is just too strong and it is not ideological media like in TN...
-
...

Good post. I can critique some points but the main point of AP is different than say TN is correct. That dichotomy is just not from now but even from the days of Justice party under British.

AP Hindu person is just like any other state Hindu person. This commonality is not recognized by many posters here but RSS/BJP knows so they are not much bothered. Where they differ with say North India BJP person is on political and economic grounds and these grounds are not something to hate or fight about. Due to their independent mind average Telugu person may come as arrogant to HIndutva BJP person. Telangana is somewhat different because there are active jihadi elements such as MIM that campaign across many Nizam states - AP, TS, MH, KT so usual BJP methods may work to in TS to some extent.

Tamilnadu is different as it has first defence Dravidian firewall that Andhra didn't want to have. post-independance Tamilnadu went Dravidian way and Andhra went Congress way. So TN social engineering went along the lines of Dravidian way. Even Andhra person from border district finds what-the-F is wrong with TN not just some North Indian guy.

Where commonality can be found in TN and AP is with respect to temples as they follow similar Agama Sastra. This is where if BJP starts they will be successful instead of usual Shaka model for penetration which is long drawn process. For that to happen temples need to be freed from political parties and state government and given to Hindus. There is enormous amount of funds not utilized for traditional education and knowledge and language and arts and other Jathi jobs like they used to do. One temple town used to sustain many villages around it to keep Hinduism alive. Now villages are barren from such Hinduism promotion. Even if I promote temple and ashrams, without some larger body of organization and temple help, they are not sustainable. At village level, getting a pujari has become tough forget about having person to teach shlokhas or do parayanam once in a while.

nandakumar · Post by **nandakumar** » 24 May 2019 21:54

Sridhar K
My personal take on this part of the post.
Nandhakumar Saar
Personal anecdotes from my grand father whose best friend was Rajajis close aide: Rajajis hatred for Sathyamurthy and his protege Kamaraj is one of the biggest contributor to the growth of DK and downfall of Cong in TN. Rajaji was a mentor of EVR and in Rajajis funeral, EVR was in tears and was mocked by MuKa and Anna. There were several instances where Rajaji defended DK actions with the Congress high comman
There seems to a bit of elitism of Rajaji who considered Kamaraj who was son of the soil type like Modi. My dad grew up in sprawling Gandhi Ashram in Thiruchengodu which was Rajajis HQ
Yes it is true there was no love lost between Satyamurthy and Rajaji. At the same time, it was purely political rivalry. Nothing personal. Rajaji felt that he had already acquired a national stature and Stayamurthi's challenge to his leadership in Madras Presidency back then, was seen by him as an irritation to be squatted away. Satyamurthy was clever. He realised that he could never really challenge Rajaji on a one-on-one fight. Rajaji's connection to Gandhi, Nehru was a lot stronger than he could ever hope to aspire for. So Satyamurthy propped up Kamaraj as non-Brahmin alternative to Rajaji's leadership of Congress. Kamaraj had already acquired some fame in the independence struggle and had become a Member of the legislative assembly in 1937. The Congress politics in those days was very murky. There were many factions within Congress in the period between 1937 and 1952 with the interlude of quit India movement. There was a Rajaji faction, Kamaraj faction and there was a Telugu faction until the reorganisation of States on a linguistic basis in 1950. In 1952 after the election Rajaji became a compromise candidate for Congress as there was jockeying for power among different factions. But it lasted for 2 years as in 1954 Rajaji had to resign from chief ministership over a controversial education policy. Kamaraj took over as the Chief Minister in 1954.
Incidentally Kamaraj was instrumental in bringing the first of all Constitutional amendments and this was on issue of reservation in employment and college reservation for backward class . The Justice Party had already introduced a reservation for backward class when they were in power in the 1919 to 1937 period in the Madras Presidency. This was in conflict with the Constitution as there was no provision for reservation other than SC/ST. The Supreme Court rightly struck it down as unconstitutional. Kamaraj prevailed upon Nehru to bring a constitutional amendment as he argued that Congress would lose power if this was not done. So you see, backward class politics goes a long way in TN.

nandakumar · Post by **nandakumar** » 24 May 2019 22:08

Added later: Rajaji was not a mentor to EVR in the traditional sense. They were both members of the Congress party until EVR broke away from Congress in 1920. Age wise too, they were contemporaries. It would be fair to say they were friends although they were ideologically in opposite camps. It was Rajaji who advised EVR to formally marry Maniammai who was his consort and he wanted that she carry forward his legacy after his death. EVR really didn't trust Annadurai or his other followers. As a lawyer and as a friend Rajaji advised that if he did not want any legal complications about his property and that of his Dravida Kazhagam it was better that he marry her. But otherwise there was nothing sexual about the relationship between the two.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 24 May 2019 22:30

Trying to revive an old belief:
Is it true (as I seem to remember) that the "KL Cangrej" was originally a breakaway organization of the NSS, from the main Cangrej? Then got eaten by the Church?

Agasthi · Post by **Agasthi** » 24 May 2019 22:32

Many great points above with respect to TN. The Anti-BJP/Modi propaganda via SM was tremendous and the initial goodwill that TN had for Modi seems to have evaporated with Demonitisation and GST. TN is dominated by medium and small business enterprises and apparently suffered greatly in this time. This must have been true for Maharashtra but they seemed to have voted for Modi.

Post those two reforms, this was deftly used to make it a hate Modi campaign and all the issues highlighted above by esteemed posters on the Jallikattu protests, Hydrocarbon, Sterlite shooting being blamed on Modi is widely held as true. My father-in-law is in a state of shock with Modi's win and that is enough for me

. And so are many people whose votes won at the state level but lost at the national elections. Hopefully, this leads to some soul searching about why the rest of India voted Modi if he is as evil as was portrayed.

My thoughts on why Hindutva doesn't resonate with TN Hindus is probably because:

a. Areas roughly south of Nellore didn't' go through what the North, Deccan and even Kerala had to go through from Islamic invaders. The last known instance was the Malik Kafur invasion and whatever he destroyed, the subsequent Vijayanagar and Nayakar rule rebuilt many times over with interest. The Nawabs of Arcot by the time they got established in TN were too busy fighting their own, the assorted European companies and the Marathas that he had no time to become a Ghazi and the temples were largely intact considering the great temple at Thiruvannamalai was a juicy target just a few miles away from their political center in Arcot.

b. TN is a living and breathing Hindutva society, where other faiths had to conform to this culture and of course before gulf money and EJ's came on the scene and even then the in your face behavior from these two faiths is still limited. There was no in your face humiliation/persecution of Hindus and their culture like what happened north of Pennar river. Just see the photos of all those politicos in ADMK and DMK and in general the common folk, most of them wear their hinduness in multiple layers on their forehead and they are not ashamed of it. Even my mother is an example, very religious and still voted DMK because reservation benefited her and her loyalty stems from that. So the slogan 'garv se kaho ki hum hindu hain' is irrelevant to this populace.

c. Subscribing to DK's ideology is TN's clumsy way of dealing with westernization and modernity with an orthodox/conservative Hindu inner self. Tamil Hindus wherever they go be it Singapore or Fiji, first job is to build a proper temple with all the orthodox rituals and build a community around it. Other Indians especially Northies are a lot more flexible in their worship and take to modernity like a duck takes to water.

TN brethern need another way of channeling away from the DK's hold, not sure how. Perhaps, it should start with a temple itself or start owning/funding Jallikattus which are usually temple funded and don't have the brahmin tag and start moving on to own the imperial past of the Cholas, Pandyas and the Pallavas. Inheriting them will go a long way in discrediting the DK idealouges tenuous claims to that past. DK's ownership of tamil exceptionalism is linked to that past. That needs to be broken. The DK's wont go into a temple but the BJP can. This is just my opinion and there will be better paths.

Theeran · Post by **Theeran** » 24 May 2019 23:14

Excellent post.

I would say don't bring Ram or Krishna. Family deities are usually one of the Amman. People pray to them more than any other. Even Murugan temples are visited as a pilgrimage. Everyday temple visits are to the local vinayagar kovils or ayyappan kovils.

ssundar · Post by **ssundar** » 25 May 2019 01:37

IMHO, TN deserves a separate thread. Perhaps, so do AP and KL. Here's why. AP is mostly overt EJ-ism and KL is a lethal combination of Leftism, EJ-ism and Jihadism. TN is a perfect storm of many BIF factors who are not necessarily aligned with each other but definitely have Modi as a common enemy.

I grew up in a family that considered MGR corrupt and consistently voted DMK. I read many Annadurai works in my school years and grew into quite the Dravidian

. Yet I had many Iyer/Iyengar friends and spent a lot of time in temples. This is the story of most Tamils - Dravidian at heart but Hindu in conduct. TN youth are always injected a non-lethal dose of Socialism and Dravidianism from elementary school to college... if they go to non-EJ institutions, that is. Social harmony was never a problem. They are really introduced to caste when they get out of school and come up for college admissions.

EJs always existed but seem to have gained a lot of strength during UPA's 10 years. They were able to bring DMK under their control and were also able rein in JJ and keep her from doing anything against them. She even withdrew the Anti-Conversion law that her own government had enacted earlier. Plus the attack on the Sankara Mutt, exposure of Nityananda, etc. When you visit any TN town these days, a high proportion of your touch points - Uber driver, etc. - are Christians. Many Christians in the movie and music industry. You see more and more churches in every street. Cable TV has EJ channels going into every house. It is hard to believe that TN's Christian population is anything less than 30-40%. High proportion of cryptos. Controllable by the Padres.

AAP was a big phenomenon in 2014 but quickly died after the drubbing by Modi/JJ.

DeMo was a big hit on TN as this is one of the richest states in India per capita. Lots of black money runs the economy. I know many friends who were active supporters of Mod before DeMo and immediately fell silent or became anti-Modi after it.

I first noticed signs of TN deviating only when JJ fell on her deathbed. A large number of cryptos started coming out, vying for the leadership vacuum in TN. Sebastian Seeman, Deepa Patrick, Joseph Vijay, etc. Many tried to rope in Sahayam IAS. It was hard to find a Hindu in the crowd. The drama after JJ passed away ended with Sasikala going to jail and EPS/OPS taking position. Let us face it - MAD did play a role in stabilizing EPS/OPS. People channeled all their frustration at JJ's dysfunctional and corrupt regime onto EPS/OPS. Modi got his share of abuse because of the strong belief that EPS/OPS are his proxies.

The "proxy" theory was strengthened when Modi effectively checkmated SC, PETA and BIF on the Jallikkattu matter with the bad optics of letting the matter boil and EPS flying to Delhi to get Modi's "advice". The Jallikkattu protests in TN were unprecedented. Ordinary people came together but with a generous infusion of EJ/Jihadi mischief mongers as well. The crowd reportedly shunned every politician and celebrity who came to their support but welcomed only Sahayam IAS. Even after Modi defused it, the protests ended with one last day of "war scene" that was widely recorded on cell phone cameras and shared over WhatsApp. The era of Modi the Dictator had begun.

The volume of memes went exponentially up only after JJ fell ill. Hundreds, if not thousands, would come into WhatsApp groups EACH DAY. DeMo+GST+Jallikkattu became the pressure cooker within which TN popular opinion was pretty much cooked into a mush. TN was never the same.

Sterlite picked up after that and cooked the mush even further. After Sterlite, there was NO going back to Modi. Done and dusted. EPS/OPS messed up in Tuticorin. There were enough indicators of impending violence. It could have been preempted. EPS could have pushed TNPCB to measure and openly share environmental data around Tuticorin. He buckled and closed down the plant. No data has been shared until today and the TN government is still not taking any visible action to take this to conclusion. Modi hasn't done anything either, despite the massive impact on India's Copper import and export. This frustrated both Sterlite supporters and opponents alike.

After that point, ANY development scheme "brought by Modi" was evil in TN. 8-lane roads, transshipment ports, harbors, defence corridors, etc. By the Pavlovian principle, the TN citizen was already programmed to suspect anything that had Modi's signature.

GE 2019 in TN was a massive wave against Modi. Every seat went to DMK+ at a 100,000-400,000 vote margin. It cannot be explained by a love of RaGa or Stalin. It cannot be explained by a hate against corruption.

Rudradev · Post by **Rudradev** » 25 May 2019 01:44

One question.

I believe BJP's vote share in KL overall was 12.93% for the 2019 GE. BJP's vote share in AP seems to have been 0.96%.

In TN, NDA's vote share (i.e. AIADMK's) was 18.5% per Wiki. What was BJP's in the 5 seats it contested directly?

Theeran · Post by **Theeran** » 25 May 2019 01:53

I read somewhere that it is around 4% in TN same as Seeman and Kamalahaasan.

Rudradev · Post by **Rudradev** » 25 May 2019 01:55

So in terms of BJP presence KL (3x) > TN (4x) > AP, approximately.

uskumar · Post by **uskumar** » 25 May 2019 02:53

EJ threat that TN is facing now is unlike anything faced before. This is one reason why this thread is so important. To counter it is of utmost importance.
Most of the propaganda that has gone against bjp was done by EJ community. This election has shown the power of WhatsApp forwards in TN .

Factors which will win votes in tamilnAdu as of today is
1. Tamil sub-nationalism- that is why bjp needs a good orator. One who can talk for an hour without conveying any meaningful information intermittently adding tamil, tamilan and tamil enam in their speeches.
2. Caste arithmetic especially in deep south. Even EJ is not immune to caste vote.
3. Film industry. There are dime a dozen film stars in TN who are trying their hand in politics. But provides instant recognition to politicians.

Someone mentioned kamal has got decent votes from tambram community, Even though his conversion to EJ is well documented, is disappointing but predictable and is evidence of dhimmification. Next bjp leader will need to be from obc community like modi with excellent oratory skills. Bjp will need to deploy it's IT machinery at massive scale to counter ej funded 100rs meme creators. I don't think bjp can win votes in tamilnAdu by invoking Hinduism like they are trying. TN people just don't identify themselves as such. At same time bjp should use sedition law where necessary to counter any threat to national unity as short term measure.

darshan · Post by **darshan** » 25 May 2019 03:04

Not sure if it would be better to ask in general election thread or here. I'm trying to figure out some simple things regarding southern familia. I haven't lived in the southern region. Also i work in fields traditionally worked by white people.

1) how's english language any closer to southern languages than let's say Gujarati? On same token, how's Latin for Bible and Arabic for Quran any closer than Sanskrit for Vedas?
2) how's Vatican, US or Saudi Arabia any closer than Gujarat?
3) were the missionaries or mullahs asked to meet the same cultural requirements as northern familia? I understand that now days these may be southern and meet cultural requirements but they wouldn't have since day one. If present requirements were there, then no missionary would have ever made any headway.

uskumar · Post by **uskumar** » 25 May 2019 03:06

^ssundar sir ++1000. , Super post. I also agree that true percent of EJ community in tn is definitely 25 to 40 percent. Census figures makes no sense. Their domination in tn film industry is frightening and can only be compared to mafia domination of Bollywood. I think only ilayaraja and rajini are left to fly the dharmic flag.

Rudradev · Post by **Rudradev** » 25 May 2019 03:08

uskumar wrote:EJ threat that TN is facing now is unlike anything faced before. This is one reason why this thread is so important. To counter it is of utmost importance.
Most of the propaganda that has gone against bjp was done by EJ community. This election has shown the power of WhatsApp forwards in TN .
.

+100008.
The Christian Missionary (particularly, but not exclusively Evangelical) menace is something MAD needs to counter on a war footing, across the length and breadth of India but particularly in the South. We have to recognize that this is ultimately a greater danger to India than even the most rabid Islamist tanzeem. No "Southern Strategy" for the BJP (or any nationalist force) can succeed unless this threat is eliminated permanently.

Rudradev · Post by **Rudradev** » 25 May 2019 03:29

darshan wrote:Not sure if it would be better to ask in general election thread or here. I'm trying to figure out some simple things regarding southern familia. I haven't lived in the southern region. Also i work in fields traditionally worked by white people.

1) how's english language any closer to southern languages than let's say Gujarati? On same token, how's Latin for Bible and Arabic for Quran any closer than Sanskrit for Vedas?
2) how's Vatican, US or Saudi Arabia any closer than Gujarat?
3) were the missionaries or mullahs asked to meet the same cultural requirements as northern familia? I understand that now days these may be southern and meet cultural requirements but they wouldn't have since day one. If present requirements were there, then no missionary would have ever made any headway.

Read Nandakumar ji's excellent summary of TN's political history (from Madras Presidency times) on the first page of this thread. Subnationalism under the "Dravida" banner was given an opportunity to emerge 100 years ago and acquired a position of dominance in TN that it retains to this day. Since independence, it has been assiduously cultivated by foreign interests for exactly this purpose.

Because "Dravida" identity defines itself in contrast to "North Indian" (i.e. Sanskrit-infused, Devanagri-scripted) language forms, the imperative to resist those language forms and the cultures associated with them overrides any antipathy to other cultures and languages that are clearly foreign.

As for missionaries and inculturation, this has been going on in the South ever since Roberto de Nobili (a Jesuit who spoke Tamil, dressed up as a Tamil Brahmin, and preached the gospel) in the 16th century. Remember, this part of the country had more contact with European influences much earlier than any other. It is in fact a testament to the resilience of the South's essential Hindu-ness that despite a 500-year assault by colonially-empowered Christists, it still remains culturally attuned to the forms of Hinduism practiced by its ancestors.

It is the Dravida movement, however, that proved to be Tamil Nadu's immunodeficiency virus. Through a methodology most comparable to Maoist cultural revolution, it went about actively destroying any affinity the people felt for the Hindu traditions of their forebears. While Dravida itself was supposedly "atheist", its activities proved critical to generating the vacuum into which internationally-funded Christian Missionaries could finally ensconce themselves like an infection within an immuno-compromised patient.

This is what we are faced with now. Just because we still see towering gopurams and hear Thyagaraja's thillanas, don't for a minute underestimate the danger. It is as grave as anything we face in J&K, simply more treacherous because the overt signs of de-Hindufication aren't as glaringly obvious.

ssundar · Post by **ssundar** » 25 May 2019 03:35

BJP is finished in TN. Even the name is closely associated with North India and Hindi.

The best course of action is to promote a RW stalwart who completely avoids any association with BJP - electorally or otherwise. This person has to effectively win the 2021 state elections and put a stop to the EJ engine. Let TN recover over the next 10-20 years in a slowly-administered antidote to Dravidianism/EJ-ism. Essentially, I am talking about a Tamil Modi.

Everyone's hoping that Rajni is this person.

It could also very well be the EPS/OPS combo if they play it right in the next couple of years. EPS has to openly send signals that he no longer is Modi's proxy. He may even have to become anti-Modi. If he fixes the notoriously corrupt TN administration and police while Modi-Gadkari flood the state with Mudra, Ayushman, JDY, Farm reforms and also a grand river interlinking project, EPS has a chance to get re-elected. I am also fairly certain the MuKa family plus the new Congress MPs will ruin their names in the next 2 years. Modi also needs to send a few of them to jail. Kanimozhi, A. Raja, Dayanidhi Maran on the DMK side and Chidu & Karthi on the Congress side are strong prospects. That will drive the UPA in TN into disarray.

uskumar · Post by **uskumar** » 25 May 2019 03:47

While Dravida itself was supposedly "atheist", its activities proved critical to generating the vacuum into which internationally-funded Christian Missionaries could finally ensconce

Sir stage 1 was to create a vacuum that missionaries can fill. Now that EJs have mass following and about 30 odd channels, we are in stage 2 where people who are ej are no longer even pretending to be Hindu or Dravidian. They speak bad about Hinduism but under the cloak of atheism but openly practice Christianity.

Theeran · Post by **Theeran** » 25 May 2019 06:12

On cue dmk is once again trying to remove the Hindu roots of the Tamil language through its mouth pieces.

Tamil is a timeless language. We have a vast literature. We are independent thinkers. We have existed on our own. We never had religious affiliation considering how ancient we are. Tamils pride is the core of Tamils unity. Tamil has that magic.

https://mobile.twitter.com/SriramMadras ... 1873558528

arshyam · Post by **arshyam** » 25 May 2019 06:51

We have existed on our own. We never had religious affiliation considering how ancient we are.

That's some bullshit of a high order. Wonder what he is smoking?

ssundar · Post by **ssundar** » 25 May 2019 07:18

arshyam wrote:
We have existed on our own. We never had religious affiliation considering how ancient we are.
That's some bullshit of a high order. Wonder what he is smoking?

He should check with Kamal Haasan. That guy would tell him that Tamil had two religious affiliations - Shaivism and Vaishnavism

.

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 25 May 2019 07:24

To add to Nandakumar's post (on page 1)....

In TN regions things started to move in the 1860s-1880s. Let me break it down at a very high level:

Brahmins in the then Madras Presidency had started to learn English and gain clerical, accountant, administrative jobs.
As the British system flourished, the Brahmins started to occupy the middle layer - between the British & the Indian.
With the British legal systems gaining traction, the Brahmins moved into the Legal space as well.
Pretty soon the Brahmins "controlled" Legal, Trade, Land, Finance sectors; because they were right there between the British and us.
Primarily these Brahmins were tamil and telugus.
Obviously this upset the other caste people, who were losing out and starting to get envious. Add to the fact that Brahmins were already officiating as priests in major temples.
So the "non-brahmin" movements started by these caste people. They were not the "adivasis" or the "scheduled" people. The caste survey came in 1881.
By the early 1900s these people had developed political ambitions as well.
AIT was used to create a Dravidian identity. Most of the people involved in the Self-Respect movement, Justice Party etc were all caste conscious people. They were not exactly like the type of Narayana Guru.
As time moved on the Congress party antics started creating more trouble within these movements. There were Malayalees, Telugu and Tamil folks primarily. If we see the landmarks in Madras, still many of them have telugu people names.
Once the likes of EVR etc took over, the Malayalees and Telugus started to distance from the "Dravidian" movement. Essentially it became a Tamil only effort.
Fast forward....and DK was launched. Which gave rise to DMK.
If people had paid attention to 1920s, both the Russians and Germans had used cinema to create propaganda. Some silent era classics speak louder than the silence.
Like in Maharashtra, in the tamil regions, the drama scene was pretty strong. In drama - oratory skills, memorization and talking to the audience etc are key to capture attention.
Like in some lies, there lies (pun intended) some grain of truth; talented people from drama moved to DMK, and cinema.
Karunanidhi was one of them. Annadurai was another. MGR was another. DMK started using cinema to spread its message among people. MGR became the star, Karunanidhi was penning the dialogues.
A split between them created DMK and AIADMK.
So there was nearly 100+ years of brain washing the people by these caste people - which was essentially a power struggle. Did the "Dalits" benefit? Not much.
However the movement did create a few side benefits in terms of development, decrease in feudalism etc.
The propaganda did not rest only in cinema, but came into books. The Universities were teaching them. So decades of students were additionally brainwashed.
In the 60s the Hindi "imposition" gave impetus to the DK groups; and Congress was kicked out for good. A new anti-North and anti-Hindi stance replaced the anti-Imposition stance.
Meanwhile since the 1940 Sri Lankan tamil issues had started festering. By the 70s and 80s these tamil groups in SL took to violent struggle. Parts of SL, if not the whole SL, used to be part of Akhanda Bharat. It was natural for TN tamilians to feel for SL tamilians. The politicians in TN used this sentiment.

Other keys points:
* The key is the rich hoary history of tamil regions, coupled with the perceived victimization gave DMK and AIADMK control of the population.
* TN used to have one of the least Muslim population in the country along with Odisha.
* The Christian population was less compared to Kerala.
* The DK goons kept Naxalism and Marxism from growing in TN. Just like Didi's TMC goons gave it to CPI goons.
* Now with MuKa and JJ gone, Jihadism and EvanJihadism will start to flourish. Supported by fringe elements.
* A pan-Indian phenomenon of ancient India has been that we always us in terms of caste. The term Hinduism in various forms did not exist at a level to capture our imagination. It was the same in TN, people cared for their local deities more. Rama or Krishna does not tug the heart as much as Amman or Murugan. Yet Kamba Ramayanam was written in the Tamil regions. Bhakti movement started in the tamil regions in the past. There are more than 1 lakh temples in TN.

Modi winning in 2019 actually is a major Hindu political movement. Various castes have started seeing themselves as Hindus.

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 25 May 2019 07:38

To add to Anujan's point about oratory and debate. I do not know about the history, but ever since the TVs entered our living rooms..the concept of "pattimandrams" is huge in Tamil Channels. It is where people will dissect and split hairs on useless topics to other uber sensitive topics. Some of the topics are really nonsensical. But in other cases they would argue if "Rama killing Vali was correct or not"; "Should Rama have sent Sita to forest", "Should Rama have asked Sita to go through Agniparikshai".

There is a phrase in tamil that translates to "Does it matter if Rama or Ravana ruled?". Again I do not know the history, but this is a sign of the mistrust among commoners towards government and institutions.

In my earlier post I mentioned Drama and Cinema. Now add to that TV. In the recent years it is just Cinema and TV that controls the people's minds. It was said that Socrates and Plato disliked Democracy because they felt the oratory powers could easily sway people.

The only people who are as crazy if not more crazy about movies are the Telugus. But the sway of cinema is quite strong in the South. We create gods on the fly

)))))))))

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 25 May 2019 07:40

hanumadu wrote:I said before that Modi should learn Tamil for 2024. Also Modi is a great orator. His message is being lost in translation. In fact, any politician from the north has to learn as many southern Indian languages as possible, but Tamil is a must. It will immediately endear him to the people.

2024 will not be Modi, I think.

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 25 May 2019 07:44

nachiket wrote: True, but they were completely immune to the Modi Tsunami in most other parts of India, to the extent that even Pon Radhakrishnan lost for no discernible reason.

Tamilians did not have a connect with Modi. Some of the issues he was bringing did not have resonance with them. PonRa lost because of deep Christian Church machinations (so they say)

ShyamSP · Post by **ShyamSP** » 25 May 2019 08:06

SwamyG wrote: [*]AIT was used to create a Dravidian identity. Most of the people involved in the Self-Respect movement, Justice Party etc were all caste conscious people. They were not exactly like the type of Narayana Guru.
[*]As time moved on the Congress party antics started creating more trouble within these movements. There were Malayalees, Telugu and Tamil folks primarily. If we see the landmarks in Madras, still many of them have telugu people names.
[*]Once the likes of EVR etc took over, the Malayalees and Telugus started to distance from the "Dravidian" movement. Essentially it became a Tamil only effort.

This is where proper content in education from Center and good translators into Tamil will help as lot of research emerged debunking it. AIT is used across India and average Tamilian take it for fact and they don't even go to 1 century back literature where they don't find any reference to it. British made them think they are Dravidians driven out by the Aryans. Luckily the Dravidianism didn't enter into popular literature in Telugu at the same time. It may take a decade or so with reverse brain-washing but it will be good pay off.

BJP instead of winning elections in non-BJP places should invest in transforming those places with proper education and supporting their Agama traditions/freeing temples. Temples once were cultural centers also but nowadays become only "Darsan" places cultural stages around temples are converted into shopping place. Once temples becomes culture rich, traditional knowledge becomes popular and push the "modern"/"post-modernistic"/"atheist" talks on TVs and Cinemas will go away. With proper/factual/scientific education in schools and dharmic education from temples, the Rakshasha influences will go away.

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 25 May 2019 08:17

Even after elections, there are whatsapp forwards that show the maps of India at various points of time in history. They show how tamil regions were not part of Maurayan Empire, Mughal Empire, Delhi Sultanate etc etc.

I honestly do not know why those regions were not fully under control. The Europeans used cartography as a tool to help in their World conquests.

Tamilians feel proud of being unconquered. Like how the World talks about Afghanistan never being ruled by others for a long time.

arshyam · Post by **arshyam** » 25 May 2019 09:22

Welcome back saar, saw you started posting since last week, but didn't get a chance to reply before.

A couple of things, if you don't mind:

SwamyG wrote:To add to Nandakumar's post (on page 1)....

In TN regions things started to move in the 1860s-1880s. Let me break it down at a very high level:

Brahmins in the then Madras Presidency had started to learn English and gain clerical, accountant, administrative jobs.

As the British system flourished, the Brahmins started to occupy the middle layer - between the British & the Indian.

With the British legal systems gaining traction, the Brahmins moved into the Legal space as well.

Pretty soon the Brahmins "controlled" Legal, Trade, Land, Finance sectors; because they were right there between the British and us.

Primarily these Brahmins were tamil and telugus.

Obviously this upset the other caste people, who were losing out and starting to get envious. Add to the fact that Brahmins were already officiating as priests in major temples.

So the "non-brahmin" movements started by these caste people. They were not the "adivasis" or the "scheduled" people. The caste survey came in 1881.

Ironically, a lot of Chettiars also got into influential positions via a business background (Chettinad Group, for example), as they also used the advantages provided by the system of the day. Many of them gave back to the society, for example, Annamalai University, which was established in 1929. Heck, even EVR was from a well-to-do Naicker family, and did not endure any discrimination, till he travelled to Varanasi and had a bad experience. But Naickers weren't really backward either, as they came from the post-Vijayanagara administrative communities. But it was only the brahmins who were vilified later, perhaps because they were an easy target and less in number (around 2%).

SwamyG wrote:[*]Once the likes of EVR etc took over, the Malayalees and Telugus started to distance from the "Dravidian" movement. Essentially it became a Tamil only effort.

Another irony here: EVR himself was a Kannada speaking Naicker. This is what the likes of Seeman say when arguing against dravidianism (he's no friend of nationalism though). The positive with the dravidian movement was that it didn't discriminate between southern languages and generally started from a regionalist perspective. The older TN ethos of "vandavarai vaazhavaikkum thamizhagam" also helped. Hence the wide acceptance of people from other states in TN politics.