Kerala, Andhra and Tamil Nadu - news and strategy thread

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Re: Kerala, Andhra and Tamil Nadu - news and strategy thread

Postby nachiket » 15 Oct 2019 01:41

Rony wrote:By Rakesh Krishnan Simha who usually writes on defense and foreign affairs. He is a Hindutva leaning Thiyya from Kerala. In south Kerala, i believe Thiyyas are also called Ezhavas like he mentions . They are the backbone caste of Kerala Commies. Commie Pinarayi Vijayan for one is a Ezhava. So is the Hindu spiritual leader and social reformer Narayana Guru.

Hindus should learn from the mistakes of their ancestors. If you treat the lower classes without respect, some of them will convert. For 800 years, my Thiyya community was considered avarna, that is outside the pale of Hinduism. We did not care because we had our own temples, gurus, forts, private armies, and the kings relied on us during wars when our Chekavars (kamikazi soldiers) would spread terror in the enemy camps.

....

The British gave us respect which our own countrymen did not. Think about that. Similarly, in Maharashtra, the Mahars joined the British Indian Army. Which Indian king would recruit them as soldiers?


Partial knowledge of history can be dangerous. It is true that the Mahar's served in the EIC and later British armies. But it is equally true that they served in Maratha armies as well.

https://web.archive.org/web/20051102115 ... e.art.html

Military service provided Mahars with the opportunity to move beyond their traditional social position in the village. In fact, the Mahar tradition of being in armies precedes the British Raj.

The recorded history of the Mahars' military achievements dates back to Shivaji's Army in the 1600s.[114] Cynthia Enloe, a noted sociologist who has written extensively on ethnic-military relationships, states, "The best of all militaries in the eyes of a state elite is one in which the most competent soldiers are also the most politically reliable, because they have the greatest stake in the continuation of the current system."[115] The Mahars met this condition according to descriptions of their loyalty. Colonel V. Longer, author of Forefront Forever: The History of the Mahar Regiment, states:

There were a number of useful functions which the Mahars performed. Their Argus eye; their daring tenacity and determination; their faithfulness, loyalty and honesty; their courage and candour, were inestimable qualities which were always held in respect and were for ever utilized to advantage by the village .... In course of time, their voice carried great weight when there were disputes over property as their evidence was considered most accurate, intimate, and trustworthy.[116]

This sense of loyalty and trustworthiness led Shivaji to include Mahars as a vital component of his army.


Shivaji, leader of the Maratha nation, fought for a Hindu empire, but using Untouchables did not bother him. He "found the Mahars useful, for the wily Maratha chief realized that the best way of obtaining the maximum results was to mix up various castes in his garrison forces."[117] He used the Mahars "to watch the jungles at the foot of the hill forts, act as scouts and [they] kept the forts supplied with wood and fodder."[118] This was the first exposure of the Mahars to an organized army that provided its soldiers with steady pay and benefits. After Shivaji's death, Mahar units continued to serve his descendants throughout the 1700s.[119] Their experience with Shivaji and others encouraged them to seek similar employment as sepoys of the British East India Company.

Ardythe Basham, in her detailed examination of the Mahars and the military, found the perceived early martial history to be an important part of Mahar identity. She concludes, "Whether or not these incidents are historically true, they are widely accepted by the Mahars as part of their tradition, and now form part of the official history of [today's] Mahar Regiment."[120] The Mahars have often used this martial identity, rooted in the 1600s, to legitimate their continued presence in the military.

Mahars began their service with the British in the 1750s. Stephen P. Cohen, an expert on the Indian Army, discusses the importance of Mahars in the Bombay Army in his seminal work, The Indian Army: Contribution to the Development of a Nation. He writes that Mahars were

a sizeable portion of the armies of the Mahratta chieftain Shivaji, served as hereditary local policeman, and were thus a "natural" martial class. Heavily recruited in the premutiny years, the Mahars constituted a fifth to a quarter of the entire Bombay Army.[121]

In addition to the size of the Mahar contingent, they were also praised for their conduct as soldiers. The Mahars rewarded the British with the same loyalty that Shivaji had enjoyed

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Re: Kerala, Andhra and Tamil Nadu - news and strategy thread

Postby Rony » 16 Oct 2019 03:21

Thanks for that correction on Mahars , Nachiket.

Can any Keralites comment on his observations on Tiyya's and Nairs ?

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Re: Kerala, Andhra and Tamil Nadu - news and strategy thread

Postby Rony » 16 Oct 2019 03:44

In AP, Ram Gopal Verma is trying to align himself with Jagan Reddy/YSRCP . Starting with his "Lakshmi's NTR" (based on the life of NTR from the perspective of his second wife, Lakshmi Parvati) which was produced by a YSRCP leader Rakesh Reddy to his up coming movie 'George Reddy' ( a biographical movie on the Communist-Congressi goonda from Osmania University). Rumor is he picked this story because a film on a christian reddy (even if he is a commie and from telangana, not AP) "fighting against injustice and for poor" jells well with the current ruling elite in AP.

But the real George Reddy is anything but a Robinhood.

The Truth About George Reddy

Communist ecosystem notorious for creating fake narratives, has this time taken up a new project in Telangana – to create the legend of a fake hero: George Reddy.

A movie on him will be released shortly and as a precursor marketing exercise, a series of articles have appeared in some dailies like Hans India & some social media platforms. Some of the articles have gone as far as presenting him as a messiah.

This piece will bring to fore that side of his life which is being hidden from people.

Emergence of George Reddy in Osmania University :

In 1969-70, a small group eulogizing Argentine Marxist revolutionary Che Guevara emerged in Osmania University under George Reddy. George indoctrinated a handful of students with Che’s ideology and gave them training in using weapon such as knuckle-dusters, blades and knives. They camouflaged their political ideology by associating themselves with NSUI, the student wing of Congress and direct patronage from Congress leaders.

George Reddy’s emergence coincided with rise of Naxal Terror :

This development coincided with the armed uprising in distant Srikakulam district of Andhra Pradesh. That phase of naxal insurgency lasted four years (1968-72) during which 156 ‘class enemies’ were eliminated by naxals. This innocuous figure was no indicator of the terror let loose by them. A large number of people including women and children were mercilessly thrashed. Hundreds had lost limbs. To frighten the common people and to prevent them from giving evidence in courts, the armed squads exhibited medieval barbarism. After killing an opponent they used to chop body into pieces in front of wailing family members. They used to severe the head of their target and hang it to a bamboo pole in the very courtyard of the house. In some instances, the chopped heads of the victims were hung to the doors and rafters. A number of targets were tortured to death before dazed and wailing near and dear. They used to dip their hands in the blood of the victims and scribbled slogans on the walls.

George Reddy : A votary of barbaric violence

George Reddy was also a votary of barbaric violence. In the book ‘Maoism’ Sri Piratla Venkateshwalu ,quotes that the slogan George used to instigate the newly recruited was

” You are not a true communist, until your hands are soaked in the blood of the class enemy ”

There were 14 criminal cases against him since 1968. In 1970, he stabbed two students of Law College in the Osmania University campus. Neither Osmania University nor any other educational institution in Andhra Pradesh earlier witnessed violence of this type. The violence shook not only the students and academics circles but had reverberations across the state. The University Syndicate rusticated him. However, the Vice-Chancellor had to revoke the rustication within few weeks due to pressure exerted by some fellow-travellers.


Now, it is being propagated that George Reddy was winning elections in OU. The truth, however, is otherwise. In 1970, the ABVP won large number of Student Unions in Hyderabad and Telangana. George Reddy’s nominee for Osmania University Science College union lost the election. He wanted to take revenge on ABVP and also teach a lesson to the general students.

Terror on OU campus by George Reddy

In August 1971, George and his gang use to roam around in Hyderabad in APCC jeep at freewill and struck terror. They abducted ABVP activist Ch. Narasimha Reddy, a PG student, from his hostel room in the Osmania University Campus and thrashed him severely with hockey sticks and rods. This was followed by an attack on Ch.Vidyasagar Rao, President of Law College Union. His jaw was dislocated and had to be hospitalized for several weeks. The group then picked up another ABVP leader Narayan Das from his residence, bet him severely and then abandoned in a remote place assuming he was dead.

This attack was followed by another attack in which N. Indrasena Reddy, Secretary of Hyderabad ABVP unit, Surdas Reddy and other activists received serious head injuries. The then Congress Government preferred to turn blind eye to these heinous criminal acts. George Reddy’s murderous attacks on ABVP activists continued unabated. The count of those injured swelled each passing day.


Death of George Reddy & After:

During the campaign for the Student Union elections of OU Engineering College, scheduled in April 1972, George Reddy raided the Engineering Hostel with his armed goons to terrorize the common students. In that clash, George Reddy lost his life.

The newspapers came out with banner headlines indicting ABVP and RSS for murdering a NSUI leader. Unfortunately, none of the journalist bother to check the extremist background of George Reddy. The Congress sensed political opportunity in his death and used its might to exploit the incident and tried to crush ABVP.
The cartage of the dead body, led by Congress leader S.Jayapal Reddy, was deliberately halted in front of the State Headquarters of RSS in Hyderabad and inflammatory slogans were raised. Some even tried to jump over the gate.

Former Chief Minister Brahmanand Reddy paid a visit to the family of George Reddy to express his solidarity. About 175 MPs belonging to the Congress, CPI and CPM submitted a memorandum to Prime Minister Indira Gandhi to take stringent action against the RSS. But the Intelligence Wing of the Police knew what this group was.

ABVP activists Charge sheeted, High Court Cleared Them:

The police charge-sheeted nine people including six ABVP activists. They remained in jail for six months until acquitted by the trial court. On the day of their release, the NSUI took out a procession in the campus shouting objectionable slogans such as: “Not the Courts but we pronounce the judgment and will punish them.” The Government went in appeal to the High Court. But the High Court upheld the lower court’s judgment. The incident and the legal battle put a lot of strain on the ABVP.

End Note :

As per MHA report, the violence unleashed by the forces that George Reddy represented has claimed the lives of over 12000 people in the last two decades ( 1996 to 2018 ) of which close to 8000 are civilians. The BBC put this number at 6000 in its report. It is in the interest of society that such persons are not eulogized but presented for what they represent, viz hatred, jealousy & violence motivated by narcissism. The cloak that they put on must be unmasked.

Sources :

‘Seven Decades My Journey with an Ideology’ by Prof S.V.Seshagiri Rao.
Struggle Against Nation Splitters
BBC report : 1st July 2010
MHA : 1st Oct 2017
South Asian Terrorism Portal
Archive – Jagriti Weekly, 1972
Last edited by Rony on 16 Oct 2019 07:25, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Kerala, Andhra and Tamil Nadu - news and strategy thread

Postby ramana » 16 Oct 2019 04:51

S. Jayapal Reddy was Osmania Student Union (OSU) leader in 1968. he led a big strike.

Next year Telangana agitation began and gave prominence to goonda leaders in OSU modeled on Jayapal Reddy
Chief among was a 33 year old medical college student T. Mallikarjun.
He later became a Union Minister of State.

George Reddy rein of terror started after that.

One big problem was the OU would allow these people to enroll for years on end and stay in the hostels.

* At the center Mrs IG was quite weak and allowed CPI leaders to join Congress. This was called infiltration strategy.
One Congress leader with hardcore CPI background was the backer for George Reddy and his group.
He had a brother Cyril and another who was a govt officer in Punjab.

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Re: Kerala, Andhra and Tamil Nadu - news and strategy thread

Postby Vayutuvan » 16 Oct 2019 06:38

Mallikarjun from TPS which merged, I think, with Cong(I).

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Re: Kerala, Andhra and Tamil Nadu - news and strategy thread

Postby Sachin » 16 Oct 2019 12:52

Rony wrote:Can any Keralites comment on his observations on Tiyya's and Nairs ?

I read the article by Rakesh Krishnan Simha, and my thoughts are mixed. He is right when he says Ezhava community is the backbone of the commies. And it is also true that Travancore kingdom had some discriminatory practises against the "lower castes". But then he mixes up a few things;

Thiyyas are predominantly based out of northern part of Kerala (which the British made a district - Malabar - after teaching a few lessons to Tippu of Mysore). This northern part was never under the control of Velu Thambi Dalawa or any one from Travancore or Cochin Kingdoms. The area was ruled by Zamorin kings (and feudal lords under him), followed by Tippu and the finally by British. Thiyyas were mainly into toddy tapping; and then into farming. Toddy tapping was not considered an "honourable profession" by other castes. In North malabar region; Thiyyas were also warriors and under went martial training (kalari payattu for example). The concept of Chekavars only existed in the northern parts of what is today KL. And yes, they actually fought the wars and competitive fighting (often killing) sports on behalf of their feudal lords. In fact this kind of kill & get killed kind of mind set is still prevalent in northern Kerala. The usual RSS v/s BJP fights and murders are predominantly in this belt.

Ezhavas are again a community which was mainly into toddy tapping but found only in Cochin and Travancore kingdoms. Sree Narayana Guru, a reformer from the community was also from this region (and not from north Malabar, where Thiyyas were predominant). The only common connection between the two communities are their main profession and the rank which they held in the caste/social hierarchy. And it was also not the case that they were really poor. There were people who ran businesses and also ran good trading establishments etc. But it was true that government (in those days king's appointments) were generally given to Nairs and above.

There was this Merchant Navy caption who used to blog about various stuff. You can read about the Ezhava v/s Thiyya here in this blog (on the comments section).

And to summarise; Sir C.P Ramaswamy Iyer the Diwan of Travancore was to have said once "We can easily throw out the British, if we can get the Nairs & Ezhavas united for a cause". Both these communities have a sizeable presence, and also their own power politics. Today the "secular" parties also exploit this gaps to their vote bank political advantage.

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Re: Kerala, Andhra and Tamil Nadu - news and strategy thread

Postby ramana » 16 Oct 2019 19:47

Vayutuvan wrote:Mallikarjun from TPS which merged, I think, with Cong(I).



Do you know him?

I was told by his friends who elected him that he was ABVP face of that time.

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Re: Kerala, Andhra and Tamil Nadu - news and strategy thread

Postby ramana » 16 Oct 2019 19:51

Sachin, The title dalwa or dalvoy is a Vijayanager era title. I have run across dalvoy from Andhra region who were hereditary Zamindars going long back

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Re: Kerala, Andhra and Tamil Nadu - news and strategy thread

Postby Sachin » 16 Oct 2019 20:42

ramana wrote:The title dalwa or dalvoy is a Vijayanager era title.

Your note prompted me to check on Velu Thambi Dalawa. Now Wiki is certainly not the 100% reliable source, but it does show case the character of Velu Thambi as well as the intrigues and back stabbing prevalent in Travancore kingdom. Note that, this Dalawa was from Nagercoil (in today's TN) and Travancore had Dalawas/Diwans like Subba Iyyan from what is today TN. There were even titles like Diwan & Diwan Peshkar; which again seems to be have been handed over from other princely states of India. These words are generally not part of the Malayalam lexicon.

BTW, the wiki article also is totally countering the theory put forward by Rajesh Krishnan Simha. Velu Thambi had consiprated against his own clan/caste members, sided the British for some time, then ditched them and then also joined hands with the rival kingdom of Cochin.

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Re: Kerala, Andhra and Tamil Nadu - news and strategy thread

Postby nandakumar » 16 Oct 2019 21:48

There was a ADMK Minister during Jayalalitha's tenure in 2011-16 tenure, by the name Dalawai Sundaram. I was always intrigued by the first part of his name. Dalawai must have morphed into 'dhalapathi' which is the title for someone heading an army- roughly equivalent to a Corps Commander. By the way the political titles In modern TN has always had martial connotations, Such as 'thalapathi', ''captain's and so on. Did the Tamils see politics as warfare? I wonder.

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Re: Kerala, Andhra and Tamil Nadu - news and strategy thread

Postby ramana » 16 Oct 2019 22:07

Ok here is the scoop.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalavayi


Dalavayi also spelled Dalwai, Dalavay and Dalvoy was meaning title of Chief in Commander[1] or Commander in the military[2] in South Indian dynasty. In Kingdom of Mysore, Hyder Ali and his eldest son Tipu Sultan were appointed to this position.

The word Dalavayi is a Prakrit or vernacular form of the Sanskrit word Dalapati (which literally means: leader or chief of the team or wing). In western India, especially Maharashtra and Goa the descendants of Dalavayis still use the title Dalvi (Devanagari: दळवी) as surname, which is modern form of the Prakrit word Dalavayi.[3]



Remember Brig. Dalvi who was POW in 1962.

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Re: Kerala, Andhra and Tamil Nadu - news and strategy thread

Postby nachiket » 16 Oct 2019 22:21

Wow, you learn new things every day on BRF. Dalvi is not an uncommon name in MH. But I didn't know that's where it came from.

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Re: Kerala, Andhra and Tamil Nadu - news and strategy thread

Postby ramana » 16 Oct 2019 22:27

A very learned person called BRF an open university if one sets aside one's ego!!!

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Re: Kerala, Andhra and Tamil Nadu - news and strategy thread

Postby ShyamSP » 16 Oct 2019 22:30

nandakumar wrote:There was a ADMK Minister during Jayalalitha's tenure in 2011-16 tenure, by the name Dalawai Sundaram. I was always intrigued by the first part of his name. Dalawai must have morphed into 'dhalapathi' which is the title for someone heading an army- roughly equivalent to a Corps Commander. By the way the political titles In modern TN has always had martial connotations, Such as 'thalapathi', ''captain's and so on. Did the Tamils see politics as warfare? I wonder.


In South Indian terminology, Dalawan or Dalawai ot Thalavay * (Dala - wan) is leader of the group (Dalam). Dalapathi / Talapathi / Daladhipathi top most leader of the Dalam.

Dal/Dalam is always used in military terms of army unit/militant group/irregulars group/mercenaries. Generally Sena is official unit of empire/kingdom. Dalam is unit under some subordinate command. Naxalite groups in AP are, for example, called Dalams. Dalawai is prevalant in Tamil but in Telugu it is suffixed with Nayaka as Dalanayaka or Dandanayaka (Dand is royal/commander stick)

If leader also controls territory or participates in political arena, he is called Nayaka / Nayudu / Naicker. In Kaktiya and later Vijayanagara, Nayaka Samsthanams (Nayakadoms) under federation of the empire/kingdom are prevalent. In Telugu family name suffixes such as -Neni (Nayakuni - belonging to a leader) or -Sani (Senani - belonging to a commander) are still used widely among warrior/Nayaka castes. In Tamil, Naicker is some caste last names like Naidu in Telugu.

After Islamic rule old titles are forgotten or become caste names, Nawab/Munasab title became equivalent of Dalwai, Senani, Nayaka, Reddy, etc

* used for movie stars too. Thalaiva Rajnikanth or Thalaiva Vijay.

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Re: Kerala, Andhra and Tamil Nadu - news and strategy thread

Postby Rony » 16 Oct 2019 23:55

ShyamSP wrote:
nandakumar wrote:If leader also controls territory or participates in political arena, he is called Nayaka / Nayudu / Naicker. In Kaktiya and later Vijayanagara, Nayaka Samsthanams (Nayakadoms) under federation of the empire/kingdom are prevalent. In Telugu family name suffixes such as -Neni (Nayakuni - belonging to a leader) or -Sani (Senani - belonging to a commander) are still used widely among warrior/Nayaka castes. In Tamil, Naicker is some caste last names like Naidu in Telugu.

After Islamic rule old titles are forgotten or become caste names, Nawab/Munasab title became equivalent of Dalwai, Senani, Nayaka, Reddy, etc

* used for movie stars too. Thalaiva Rajnikanth or Thalaiva Vijay.



Arent Neni, Sani etc all now Kamma surnames ? ( Pemmasani, Akkineni etc) ? Vijayanagara feudatories are Pemmasani Kamma Nayakas. Tamil Nayakas/Naicker are of Telugu origins. But are they also Kammas like Pemmasani's ?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pemmasani_Nayaks

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Re: Kerala, Andhra and Tamil Nadu - news and strategy thread

Postby Rony » 17 Oct 2019 00:01

Sachin wrote:There was this Merchant Navy caption who used to blog about various stuff. You can read about the Ezhava v/s Thiyya here in this blog (on the comments section).
.


Thanks . The first line from that blog - "Arabs called Kerala Khair Allah, the land blessed by god. The term " Gods own country" is derived from this" :eek: .

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Re: Kerala, Andhra and Tamil Nadu - news and strategy thread

Postby ShyamSP » 17 Oct 2019 00:51

Rony wrote:
ShyamSP wrote:



Arent Neni, Sani etc all now Kamma surnames ? ( Pemmasani, Akkineni etc) ? Vijayanagara feudatories are Pemmasani Kamma Nayakas. Tamil Nayakas/Naicker are of Telugu origins. But are they also Kammas like Pemmasani's ?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pemmasani_Nayaks


If you look at modern castes, bulk of such names ended up as Kamma caste family names. But all Kapu (Kapu, Reddy, Kamma, Velama) and Balija castes have similar names. For example, in above George Reddy article, mentioned ABVP person Ch. Vidayasagar Rao who is now Governor has family name Ch(intamaneni) but he belongs to Velama from Telangana.

Madurai Nayakas were Balija or mix of Balija-Kamma Nayakas as some of them belong Pemmasani clans. Balija (derived from Vanijyam) is non-Vysya trading Jati now clubbed themselves under Kapu caste while real Kapus came from farming Jati. Many Pemmasani and other Kamma clans (called Kota Kammas) after fall of Gandi Kota migrated up to Madurai areas and forming small feudatories and may have worked for Madhuri Nayakas also. While some worked for Velama Nayakas that spread until Aravanadu, Northern Tamilnadu districts. Some Reddy (title meaning village leader) clans also moved to Tamilnadu and were called Reddiar but didn't yield much power in Tamilnadu unlike in Andhra.

Vijayanagara depended on these Nayaka clans who migrated to Vijayanagara under Bukka and Harihara Nayaka after fall of Kakatiya. They became adminstrative, Nayaka/feudatory, and military leaders to serve Vijayanagar and towards end of Vijaynagara they became independent Nayakas. Vijayanagara for namesake moved from Hampi to Penukonda (under Kamma Nayaka) to Chandragiri (under Velama Nayaka). Unlike other Nayaks, after Vijayanagara and until independence many Velama Nayakas kept their Samsthanams in the current day states of Telangana, AP, and Tamilnadu .

Disclaimer: I mentioned caste names for illustration and understanding history only.

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Re: Kerala, Andhra and Tamil Nadu - news and strategy thread

Postby Vayutuvan » 17 Oct 2019 02:17

ramana wrote:
Vayutuvan wrote:Mallikarjun from TPS which merged, I think, with Cong(I).

Do you know him? I was told by his friends who elected him that he was ABVP face of that time.


No, I don't. He is far too senior to me to have crossed his path. But I do remember TPS and 1969-71. I and my batchmates in Telangana region lost one year of classes - we had hardly 1 month of classes. All students were promoted to the next grade.

He is from Medaka dist. I remember him holding a rally in front of our ancestral house back in ca. 1969-70. He did join INC. He gave up his Medak seat so that IG can contest from there as a safe seat in 1980.

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Re: Kerala, Andhra and Tamil Nadu - news and strategy thread

Postby Vayutuvan » 17 Oct 2019 02:23

ramana wrote:Remember Brig. Dalvi who was POW in 1962.


He, Brig. J. P. Dalvi, wrote a book called Himalayan Blunder.

Himalayan Blunder was an extremely controversial war memoir penned by Brigadier John Dalvi. It dealt with the causes, consequences and aftermath of the Sino-Indian War of 1962, that ended in Chinese People's Liberation Army inflicting a defeat on India.

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Re: Kerala, Andhra and Tamil Nadu - news and strategy thread

Postby Rony » 17 Oct 2019 03:47

ShyamSP wrote: While some worked for Velama Nayakas that spread until Aravanadu, Northern Tamilnadu districts.


Aravanadu is Tamilnadu for Telugus and Aravallu is Tamil people. Only Telugus (and may be Kannadigas ) use 'Aravanadu' and aravallu i guess . I never seen Tamils using it and prefer the prakrit/sanskrit Tamil (from Damila).

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Re: Kerala, Andhra and Tamil Nadu - news and strategy thread

Postby ramana » 17 Oct 2019 04:21

It means the areas in modern Northern TN

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Re: Kerala, Andhra and Tamil Nadu - news and strategy thread

Postby ramana » 17 Oct 2019 04:22

ShyamSP, Thanks for explaining Ch. Vidyasagar Rao history.

When we meet will talk.

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Re: Kerala, Andhra and Tamil Nadu - news and strategy thread

Postby ShyamSP » 17 Oct 2019 05:28

Rony wrote:
ShyamSP wrote: While some worked for Velama Nayakas that spread until Aravanadu, Northern Tamilnadu districts.


Aravanadu is Tamilnadu for Telugus and Aravallu is Tamil people. Only Telugus (and may be Kannadigas ) use 'Aravanadu' and aravallu i guess . I never seen Tamils using it and prefer the prakrit/sanskrit Tamil (from Damila).


You may want to watch this Dr Nagaswami's video where he explains core Tamil area and surrounding areas and beyond those surrounding areas. That is geographical view from core Tamilnadu which according to him is Kavery delta area.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tVUKw9M95I

Aravanadu and Vaduganadu (from river Ponniyar/Ponneru/Penneru/Dakshina Pinakini in TN to Penneru/Penna/Pinakini in AP) with Kanchi at the center is also core Pallava area.

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Re: Kerala, Andhra and Tamil Nadu - news and strategy thread

Postby Rony » 17 Oct 2019 05:39

Thanks Shyam SP garu. So it looks like Aravanadu is essentially Pallavanadu which has more Telugu influence (Pallavas telugu origin theory and migration to TN , pallavas ruling both southern AP and Northern TN etc etc) and hence Telugus have more memories of it compared to other parts of TN.

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Re: Kerala, Andhra and Tamil Nadu - news and strategy thread

Postby KLNMurthy » 17 Oct 2019 07:09

ShyamSP wrote:
nandakumar wrote:There was a ADMK Minister during Jayalalitha's tenure in 2011-16 tenure, by the name Dalawai Sundaram. I was always intrigued by the first part of his name. Dalawai must have morphed into 'dhalapathi' which is the title for someone heading an army- roughly equivalent to a Corps Commander. By the way the political titles In modern TN has always had martial connotations, Such as 'thalapathi', ''captain's and so on. Did the Tamils see politics as warfare? I wonder.


In South Indian terminology, Dalawan or Dalawai ot Thalavay * (Dala - wan) is leader of the group (Dalam). Dalapathi / Talapathi / Daladhipathi top most leader of the Dalam.

Dal/Dalam is always used in military terms of army unit/militant group/irregulars group/mercenaries. Generally Sena is official unit of empire/kingdom. Dalam is unit under some subordinate command. Naxalite groups in AP are, for example, called Dalams. Dalawai is prevalant in Tamil but in Telugu it is suffixed with Nayaka as Dalanayaka or Dandanayaka (Dand is royal/commander stick)

If leader also controls territory or participates in political arena, he is called Nayaka / Nayudu / Naicker. In Kaktiya and later Vijayanagara, Nayaka Samsthanams (Nayakadoms) under federation of the empire/kingdom are prevalent. In Telugu family name suffixes such as -Neni (Nayakuni - belonging to a leader) or -Sani (Senani - belonging to a commander) are still used widely among warrior/Nayaka castes. In Tamil, Naicker is some caste last names like Naidu in Telugu.

After Islamic rule old titles are forgotten or become caste names, Nawab/Munasab title became equivalent of Dalwai, Senani, Nayaka, Reddy, etc

* used for movie stars too. Thalaiva Rajnikanth or Thalaiva Vijay.


Telugu "-Sani" suffix I believe is a version of "sahiNi", having the same meaning that you gave, i.e., commander. aDivi Bapiraju uses the suffix a lot in his historical novels. "Sahni" is of course a known north-Indian surname also, e.g., Balraj Sahni. The name Saini may also be a variation.

The more we get into it, the more it looks like "Dravidian-North Indian" linguistic differentiation is more artificial than real. I knew a Tamil academic who used to argue that a lot of Sanskritized vocabulary is actually Tamil-based. I had written him off as a chauvinist, but what he said may make sense if we "adjust" the hypothesis to say that there is a lot more overlap in the vocabulary than we previously assumed, and either the interchange was two-way, or maybe the vocabularies have a largely common origin, and Duzemil was full of sh*t.

I just watched a Bengali movie and noticed that a lot of what I used to think of as "pure Telugu" words have their variants in Bengali, like "khoka" for "kumka", "chakiri" (=job, identical to Telugu, which has a different connotation), "haThaath" (=sudden, same as in telugu). Even "veedu" for "home" though I may have been mis-hearing the last one.
Last edited by KLNMurthy on 17 Oct 2019 07:19, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Kerala, Andhra and Tamil Nadu - news and strategy thread

Postby KLNMurthy » 17 Oct 2019 07:18

ramana wrote:It means the areas in modern Northern TN


IIRC "araveeDu" is one of the traditional regions of Telugu land. Don't know if that coincides with Telugu land's border with Northern TN.

If "arava" is the old Telugu name for Northern TN region, then it makes sense that Telugus refer to Tamils as aravalu, or arava-vaaLlu. After all, Northern TN would be the interface between Telugu and Tamil lands and the name given to the interface would carry over to the whole region. This makes more sense than the usual chauvinistic explanation that Tamil is called aravamu in Telugu because to Telugu ears it sounds discordant & rough (a-ravamu).

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Re: Kerala, Andhra and Tamil Nadu - news and strategy thread

Postby Sachin » 17 Oct 2019 09:37

KLNMurthy wrote:Even "veedu" for "home" though I may have been mis-hearing the last one.

"Veedu" in Malayalam means literally a "home". It is also used to denote a bigger family/small clan. Especially in matrilineal communities where every one are attached to the "Veedu" of their mothers. Now "Mana" in Kannada means the same. In KL "Mana" means home; but that of a Namboodiri Brahmin. I have also seen the world "Illam" used in TN which again means the home. "Illam" is also used in some parts of KL to mean home of the Namboodiri Brahmins. So yes, looks like there is lot of interconnection and overlap between the various languages in Indian sub-continent. A question I always had in mind. Does Sinhala have any semblance/connection with Odiya?

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Re: Kerala, Andhra and Tamil Nadu - news and strategy thread

Postby ShyamSP » 17 Oct 2019 11:13

KLNMurthy wrote:
ramana wrote:It means the areas in modern Northern TN


IIRC "araveeDu" is one of the traditional regions of Telugu land. Don't know if that coincides with Telugu land's border with Northern TN.

If "arava" is the old Telugu name for Northern TN region, then it makes sense that Telugus refer to Tamils as aravalu, or arava-vaaLlu. After all, Northern TN would be the interface between Telugu and Tamil lands and the name given to the interface would carry over to the whole region. This makes more sense than the usual chauvinistic explanation that Tamil is called aravamu in Telugu because to Telugu ears it sounds discordant & rough (a-ravamu).


Aravidu is the last Vijanagara Dynasty after the Tallikota war. They were of Telugu origin unlike earlier Tulu dynasty and moved their capital from Hampi to Penukonda (Ananthapur District) to Chandragiri (near Tirupati) to Vellore (Tamilnadu). That Aravidu may be some village/town where the Andhra people that married into Tulu dynasty came from. There are some village names with Aravidu.

Aravanadu or Aruvanadu (Aruvu Nadu) is likely derived from Aruvu * language, probably spoken language in those areas before Cholas and Pallavas. If that is not the case it may have derived from Aruvu (borrowing/loaning) meaning Borrowed land - This is like how Parts of Rayalaseema is called Ceded area after Nizam Ceding areas to British.
*https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kannada_dialects

Real History is not taught in Tamilnadu or India so a lot of ancient history needs to be derived from informal accounts.

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Re: Kerala, Andhra and Tamil Nadu - news and strategy thread

Postby Kanson » 17 Oct 2019 16:54

ramana wrote:It means the areas in modern Northern TN

No actually as per historical records & books on that, it is southern Andhra state.

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Re: Kerala, Andhra and Tamil Nadu - news and strategy thread

Postby Kanson » 17 Oct 2019 17:26

Rony wrote:
ShyamSP wrote: While some worked for Velama Nayakas that spread until Aravanadu, Northern Tamilnadu districts.


Aravanadu is Tamilnadu for Telugus and Aravallu is Tamil people. Only Telugus (and may be Kannadigas ) use 'Aravanadu' and aravallu i guess . I never seen Tamils using it and prefer the prakrit/sanskrit Tamil (from Damila).


Name Aravanadu/Aravallu are attributed to nagas who settled in Krishna-Guntur region(established facts) a few thousand years ago. Intially they spoke their own language but later they spoke tamil or tamil too. They are tamil literature which shows the nagas patronage to tamil language.

So when Telugus moved further south, they first came into contact with nagas who spoke tamil language. Their first contact with tamil lang is thru nagas. Thatswhy they associate Aravaan/Arava (nagas) with tamil.

Aravaan means snake. Arava/Aruva is something curved like snake head. Nagas represents snake. So Aravaan/Arava/Aravanadu are the other words for nagas

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Re: Kerala, Andhra and Tamil Nadu - news and strategy thread

Postby Kanson » 17 Oct 2019 17:47

ShyamSP wrote:
You may want to watch this Dr Nagaswami's video where he explains core Tamil area and surrounding areas and beyond those surrounding areas. That is geographical view from core Tamilnadu which according to him is Kavery delta area.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tVUKw9M95I

Aravanadu and Vaduganadu (from river Ponniyar/Ponneru/Penneru/Dakshina Pinakini in TN to Penneru/Penna/Pinakini in AP) with Kanchi at the center is also core Pallava area.


I guess your are as usual back to your pet theory of defining what is core tamil areas.

I can provide more facts, but i have feeling your statement is more political in nature.

It is of no consequence the moment, telugus asked for a separate land. Even after the proposed bifurcation Telugus wanted even more land and cutoff the traditional head of TN and thereby incurring the curse of separating the holy place of Srikalahasti & Triupathi from its parent body which existed for thousands of years. The current events are more than ample proof for the existing curse on your entire land. It is the words of Mahant. And you people still talk core tamil this & core tamil that. You will see the truth as curse progress!

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Re: Kerala, Andhra and Tamil Nadu - news and strategy thread

Postby Kanson » 17 Oct 2019 18:17

Rony wrote:Thanks Shyam SP garu. So it looks like Aravanadu is essentially Pallavanadu which has more Telugu influence (Pallavas telugu origin theory and migration to TN , pallavas ruling both southern AP and Northern TN etc etc) and hence Telugus have more memories of it compared to other parts of TN.

Aravanadu is not Pallavanadu which came to existence later. As said in earlier post, Aravanadu represents Nagas.

Lets see the Pallava connection. Nagas are considered as lesser in status. A great Chola king married a naga princess in secret and spwaned a child which led another sub-branch of nagas known as Pallavas.

Intially they were rejected as illegals. Becoz they are half-Chola, later they were accepted w some conditions.

They were came to known as Pallavas. Becoz they are young branch of nagas, they came to known as Illaya(young) Pallavas. Why they are referrred as Pallavas is another convoluted story. When Chola empire declined after foreign invasion, it was Pallavas who took the intiative and rose to prominent place while Cholas reminded as a small state. Later Chola rose to subsume Pallavas.

Historians intially mixed nagas of Krishna-Guntur & Pallavas of Kanchi as one entity. So both become Pallavas. As more details started coming with passage of time, more clarification came.

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Re: Kerala, Andhra and Tamil Nadu - news and strategy thread

Postby Yagnasri » 17 Oct 2019 18:44

As per one theory Andras are also Nagas. One of the oldest insprition found in Telugu says "Nagambu" in it IIRC. As far as the boundary of the Tamil and Telugu lands are concerned - Nellore ( town and district) was ruled for many hundereds of yeas by Telugu Chodas ( Cholas by dynasty). Manumasiddi comes to mind immediately. Thikkana ( two people with same name one is a Kavi and Senapathi of the king of 13th century) is of his time.

Relationships (Wars etc) between Cholas and Eastern Chaluka kings ruling coastal AP are well known. Jatawarman Sundara Pandyan - The great last Pandyan went up the Krishna river after defeating the Kakathiya and local forces. Chennai was naturally not there but in the later years Kanchi seems to be main contesting place with Andra and Pandyan kings fighting for it. Nellore was also taken over by Anangu Deva (IIRC) Kakathiya Senani with the indirect help of Pandyans and Rudrama Devi has to come all the way to Nellore and fight for it and won. She was 80 at that time and died fighing in the battle field. A fitting end for a perhaps the greatest female ruler till Ahalya Bai Holker came. Prathapa Rudra Deva also taken Kanchi for sometime. Pallavas historically seen as Telugu people by some people. As per on view they came from Palanadu (Guntur area). I am not sure about it.

The fact is population in the border areas are always mixed. There is a large % of Telugu population in present day Tamilnadu for centuries and there was no language based stupidity at that time. In any event, one can not be sure about historical borders most of the time. Look at the borders of ME countries and how problematic the tribal and other relations these artificial borders became.

CBN is class one rouge and BJP will do well to keep him away.

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Re: Kerala, Andhra and Tamil Nadu - news and strategy thread

Postby ShyamSP » 17 Oct 2019 21:05

Kanson wrote:
ShyamSP wrote:
You may want to watch this Dr Nagaswami's video where he explains core Tamil area and surrounding areas and beyond those surrounding areas. That is geographical view from core Tamilnadu which according to him is Kavery delta area.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tVUKw9M95I

Aravanadu and Vaduganadu (from river Ponniyar/Ponneru/Penneru/Dakshina Pinakini in TN to Penneru/Penna/Pinakini in AP) with Kanchi at the center is also core Pallava area.


I guess your are as usual back to your pet theory of defining what is core tamil areas.

I can provide more facts, but i have feeling your statement is more political in nature.

It is of no consequence the moment, telugus asked for a separate land. Even after the proposed bifurcation Telugus wanted even more land and cutoff the traditional head of TN and thereby incurring the curse of separating the holy place of Srikalahasti & Triupathi from its parent body which existed for thousands of years. The current events are more than ample proof for the existing curse on your entire land. It is the words of Mahant. And you people still talk core tamil this & core tamil that. You will see the truth as curse progress!


Sorry if it sounded political but that is not my intention.

Please check the Dr Nagaswami's video how he is defining Tamilnadu. It is not my pet theory alone. For me some where near Kanchi/Vellore/Chennai/Kuppam/Krishnagiri line can be real Tamilnadu Northern boundary considering are language mix spoken there. North of it is Vadugunadu and South of it Aruvanadu. I didn't say Pallava nadu as Aravanadu but those 2 Nadus also form core areas for Pallavas. But their rule sort of defined the boundary of Tamil and Telugu people. Boundary can be fluid but current boundary was best people agreed on. Since these are solid with evidenaces, I do accept Pallavas being Naga people (from Andhra) so those areas may have come be known as Aravanadu with Naga connection. It is also possible it being land of Aruva speaking people.

On the holy places you mentioned, Tirupathi came in prominence with Vaishnavas/Iyengars moving to those areas and that came later than a. But other temples such as Srkalahasti is part of Tamil Shaiva traditions predating Pallavs as 5 temples (1 in AP and 4 in TN) form as Pancha Bhoota temples.

I hope Tamilnadu goes back to their original culture and traditions than modern propaganda DK culture and influence Andhra also which is worse than TN in modern times by abandoning Telugu language and culture in pursuit of foreign things. I'm actually more hopeful for Tamilnadu to bounce back as their language, culture, and traditions are embedded with each other much deeper than in Telugunadu.

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Re: Kerala, Andhra and Tamil Nadu - news and strategy thread

Postby ramana » 17 Oct 2019 22:12

Sachin wrote

A question I always had in mind. Does Sinhala have any semblance/connection with Odiya?



The founding story of Sinhalas is they came from modern day Bengal/Odissa region prior to Ashoka.

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Re: Kerala, Andhra and Tamil Nadu - news and strategy thread

Postby KLNMurthy » 17 Oct 2019 23:18

Kanson wrote:
Rony wrote:
Aravanadu is Tamilnadu for Telugus and Aravallu is Tamil people. Only Telugus (and may be Kannadigas ) use 'Aravanadu' and aravallu i guess . I never seen Tamils using it and prefer the prakrit/sanskrit Tamil (from Damila).


Name Aravanadu/Aravallu are attributed to nagas who settled in Krishna-Guntur region(established facts) a few thousand years ago. Intially they spoke their own language but later they spoke tamil or tamil too. They are tamil literature which shows the nagas patronage to tamil language.

So when Telugus moved further south, they first came into contact with nagas who spoke tamil language. Their first contact with tamil lang is thru nagas. Thatswhy they associate Aravaan/Arava (nagas) with tamil.

Aravaan means snake. Arava/Aruva is something curved like snake head. Nagas represents snake. So Aravaan/Arava/Aravanadu are the other words for nagas


By "Naga" do we mean people from today's Nagaland? I am guessing not, because there is no physical resemblance. It might refer to people who are worshippers of snake deity or even elephant-trainers as "naga" also means elephant in Telugu.

Shame that our school education doesn't teach us these things.

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Re: Kerala, Andhra and Tamil Nadu - news and strategy thread

Postby ShyamSP » 17 Oct 2019 23:46

KLNMurthy wrote:
By "Naga" do we mean people from today's Nagaland? I am guessing not, because there is no physical resemblance. It might refer to people who are worshippers of snake deity or even elephant-trainers as "naga" also means elephant in Telugu.

Shame that our school education doesn't teach us these things.


It may be exactly that - Worshipping snake diety or Subbaraya. Those families with Subbaraya as Kula Daivam do extra checking if there is any Sarpa Dosha when child is born and do puja/peace offering to Nagula putta (Snake pit/mound) with child and erecting Sarpa diety stone nearby.

But such practice is prevalent in many areas and south Indian cultures not just in that Nadu in discussion alone.

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Re: Kerala, Andhra and Tamil Nadu - news and strategy thread

Postby ramana » 18 Oct 2019 00:37

KLNM the Nagas of Nagaland are derived from naakh or nose for the practice of piercing their nose and putting a human bone as an ornament. Nothing to do with snakes.
They were called so by the Burmese.

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Re: Kerala, Andhra and Tamil Nadu - news and strategy thread

Postby ramana » 18 Oct 2019 00:40

So subba rao is snake diety name.

ShyamSp, When you have time please tell me the relationship between the first, second, third and fourth dynasties of Vijayanagar.

I think gradually the Kingdom started moving from its Karnataka roots. But then it was founded after the destruction of Kakatiyas of Orugal. So its complex.

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Re: Kerala, Andhra and Tamil Nadu - news and strategy thread

Postby KLNMurthy » 18 Oct 2019 07:02

ramana wrote:So subba rao is snake diety name.

ShyamSp, When you have time please tell me the relationship between the first, second, third and fourth dynasties of Vijayanagar.

I think gradually the Kingdom started moving from its Karnataka roots. But then it was founded after the destruction of Kakatiyas of Orugal. So its complex.

"Naga" is a common component of many Telugu names. Back in the day when it was normal to give Telugu kids multi-barreled long names, one branch of my family compulsorily had "Naga" in all their names. I think this is more the case for the coast than for Telangana, not sure about Rayalaseema.


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