Articles 370 and 35A Repealed, J&K and Ladakh to be Separate Union Territories

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Arun.prabhu
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Re: Articles 370 and 35A Repealed, J&K and Ladakh to be Separate Union Territories

Postby Arun.prabhu » 07 Aug 2019 06:01

It was likely part of the deal wrt Afghanistan. We’ll help you by calling off our taliban dogs if you make noises about kashmir. Bet Pakistani high command and Imran Khan are regretting that now. They have been made to look like fools.

ramana wrote:
V_Raman wrote:One interpretation of what Trump said. We know you are going to soon abrogate 370 - as you have told us. My mediation talk is about what will happen if you do that. Is that possible?


Even DT doesn't know what he meant.

Our work of integrating has happened double quick.

Almost like Crimea.

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Re: Articles 370 and 35A Repealed, J&K and Ladakh to be Separate Union Territories

Postby V_Raman » 07 Aug 2019 06:09

If USA knew about it, how come Pak did not have any clue about it? Or they had all the clues and yet could only come up with the dumb plan of asking DT to make noises on Kashmir?

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Re: Articles 370 and 35A Repealed, J&K and Ladakh to be Separate Union Territories

Postby UlanBatori » 07 Aug 2019 06:16

Even we knew that Art 35 was going to be taken down, and the military buildup was obvious. How can Pakistan not have seen all that? But it is actually none of their business.

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Re: Articles 370 and 35A Repealed, J&K and Ladakh to be Separate Union Territories

Postby salaam » 07 Aug 2019 06:31

UlanBatori wrote:Even we knew that Art 35 was going to be taken down, and the military buildup was obvious. How can Pakistan not have seen all that? But it is actually none of their business.


What could they have done, even if we told them a day before?

It was obvious to them too and tried hard with BAT and some sleepers. The grid is just too good right now with all the excess man power in J&K.

With 370 nullification, every passing day it will become harder for them to cause any mischief.

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Re: Articles 370 and 35A Repealed, J&K and Ladakh to be Separate Union Territories

Postby ShyamSP » 07 Aug 2019 06:36

Suraj wrote:I think this is primarily a question of how one parses 'scrapped'. I define the term as the constitution having been amended and the Act modified or deleted.

But that has not happened, since there has been no constitution amendment bill tabled or passed on the matter - there was a Presidential Order within the purview of Article 370, followed by a legislative act.

I prefer the term inoperative, because it matches official language, and better defines the situation - the Article remains in the constitution, and has been rendered ineffective through one of its subsections that the President has the power to exercise.


No. Inoperative is not official language but "supercede" and "repeal" are. Inoperative means it is possible to operate in the future. From Government and President's order it is done deal, superceded, repealed, abolished, scrapped.

From Government Links:

- Presidential Gazette order says current order supercedes all order of 1954 (i.e scrapping so there is no going back as future order has to come superceding this new order)
https://swarajyamag.com/insta/read-indi ... nd-kashmir

- Govt presss release on bills says repeal
http://pib.nic.in/newsite/PrintRelease. ... lid=192487
Government brings Resolution to Repeal Article 370 of the Constitution

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Re: Articles 370 and 35A Repealed, J&K and Ladakh to be Separate Union Territories

Postby Kashi » 07 Aug 2019 06:46

Why are folks assuming that US was informed of this, just based on a few dubious media reports?

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Re: Articles 370 and 35A Repealed, J&K and Ladakh to be Separate Union Territories

Postby krishna_krishna » 07 Aug 2019 06:58

Kashi wrote:Why are folks assuming that US was informed of this, just based on a few dubious media reports?


Not just dubious reports, its on record by EAM Jaishankar that they were informed twice.

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Re: Articles 370 and 35A Repealed, J&K and Ladakh to be Separate Union Territories

Postby banrjeer » 07 Aug 2019 07:00

"Lets agree for the moment that Frump/Jooyes decided to insert itself"

Baassej, No-one ever gave a shit about article 370 outside India. The inhibition was self imposed. it was more a case of "what took them so long"? We should ignore the NYT type articles because they represent Lutyens and not jooess.

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Re: Articles 370 and 35A Repealed, J&K and Ladakh to be Separate Union Territories

Postby Kashi » 07 Aug 2019 07:01

krishna_krishna wrote:
Kashi wrote:Why are folks assuming that US was informed of this, just based on a few dubious media reports?


Not just dubious reports, its on record by EAM Jaishankar that they were informed twice.


Can you please provide links to EAM's statements on this? Thanks

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Re: Articles 370 and 35A Repealed, J&K and Ladakh to be Separate Union Territories

Postby Bart S » 07 Aug 2019 07:20

khan wrote:
IndraD wrote:In response to India abrogating 370 , Pk handles tweeting Pakistani air space closed to Indian flights and HC to be called back
https://twitter.com/Natsecjeff/status/1 ... 05536?s=20

After Balakit, these same ISI mouthpieces were screaming about going to Sialkot. This has no value unless there is corroboration.

I just went in their shi**y website, there is no NOTAM https://www.caapakistan.com.pk/NOTAMS/NotamView.aspx

Someone with a twitter account should ask him what the h*ll kind of “security analyst” he is.


He seems really butthurt and is claiming that Pakistan has decided to engage in massive asymmetric warfare with thousand cuts being upgraded to million cuts now. :lol:

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Re: Articles 370 and 35A Repealed, J&K and Ladakh to be Separate Union Territories

Postby pankajs » 07 Aug 2019 07:31

^^
He claims to be non-partisan and he does tweet secular stuff but scratch the surface and the bakistaniyat comes out. Bakistan can follow "warfare with thousand cuts" but Indian cannot? The same tactical brilliance as Mush-rat.

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Re: Articles 370 and 35A Repealed, J&K and Ladakh to be Separate Union Territories

Postby UlanBatori » 07 Aug 2019 07:31

As I posted here or another thread, Farticle 370/35A will not make sense to anyone outside India. So if US was informed, the predictable reaction is : "huh? you say that you are going to take your heads out of your musharrafs? What took you this long and why is this news? (Yaaawn!)
Entirely too much being made of this. It is true that Kashmiri Muslism will riot at anything (Sheikh Abdullah, Flames of the Chinar). So the security clampdown was essential. But like the Triple Talaq, scrapping 370 was way, way overdue. I thought the clampdown was because the SC was coming out with the long-awaited decision on 35A scrappability, but it turns out the plan was a full-scale 370 scrapping by RS and LS. Amazing that the media could not smell this (or were told to shut up?)

But why Americans should be interested, is beyond me. Except to invest in the rush to J&K and Ladakh.

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Re: Articles 370 and 35A Repealed, J&K and Ladakh to be Separate Union Territories

Postby krishna_krishna » 07 Aug 2019 07:34

Bart S wrote:
khan wrote:After Balakit, these same ISI mouthpieces were screaming about going to Sialkot. This has no value unless there is corroboration.

I just went in their shi**y website, there is no NOTAM https://www.caapakistan.com.pk/NOTAMS/NotamView.aspx

Someone with a twitter account should ask him what the h*ll kind of “security analyst” he is.


He seems really butthurt and is claiming that Pakistan has decided to engage in massive asymmetric warfare with thousand cuts being upgraded to million cuts now. :lol:


The airspace is not close just like that, they are planning for something.

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Re: Articles 370 and 35A Repealed, J&K and Ladakh to be Separate Union Territories

Postby pankajs » 07 Aug 2019 07:34

https://twitter.com/ZaidZamanHamid/stat ... 9948294144

Zaid Hamid @ZaidZamanHamid
IK, you said, you will respond if India attacks AJK.....!!
So, you will not respond if India slaughters millions of Kashmiris inside IOK?? is that what you mean ? why will you not respond when 3 million Kashmiris are being crushed right now in a choking curfew?
For God sake!!!

Downhill skiing? The current situation is unrelated to POK. So no action?

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Re: Articles 370 and 35A Repealed, J&K and Ladakh to be Separate Union Territories

Postby Arun.prabhu » 07 Aug 2019 07:35

Given the state of their economy, buying those million razors would be the death of them.

Bart S wrote:
khan wrote:After Balakit, these same ISI mouthpieces were screaming about going to Sialkot. This has no value unless there is corroboration.

I just went in their shi**y website, there is no NOTAM https://www.caapakistan.com.pk/NOTAMS/NotamView.aspx

Someone with a twitter account should ask him what the h*ll kind of “security analyst” he is.


He seems really butthurt and is claiming that Pakistan has decided to engage in massive asymmetric warfare with thousand cuts being upgraded to million cuts now. :lol:

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Re: Articles 370 and 35A Repealed, J&K and Ladakh to be Separate Union Territories

Postby krishna_krishna » 07 Aug 2019 07:37

Kashi wrote:
krishna_krishna wrote:
Can you please provide links to EAM's statements on this? Thanks


According to the report, the meeting between Jaishankar and Pompeo took place on the sidelines of the ninth East Asia Summit Foreign Ministers’ Meeting in Bangkok, Thailand on 1 August.

However, this was reportedly not the first time when India briefed US on the issue. Earlier in February, National Security Advisor Ajit Doval had called his US counterpart John Bolton two days after Pulwama attack and told him about the Modi government’s plans to scrap the ‘special status’ accorded to Jammu and Kashmir.

As per the report, the Trump administration was apprised of the move by the Modi government as it did not want to take a chance when it came to the US, sources said.

Furthermore, on Monday (5 August), soon after the Union Home Minister announced the decision to abrogate Article 370, the Ministry of External Affairs swung into action and briefed the envoys of the P-5 nations - the US, United Kingdom, China, France and Russia- about the Centre’s move.

Besides, the envoys of all the 15 members of the United Nations Security Council (UNSC) were also briefed.

https://swarajyamag.com/insta/modi-gove ... eek-report

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Re: Articles 370 and 35A Repealed, J&K and Ladakh to be Separate Union Territories

Postby UlanBatori » 07 Aug 2019 07:59

So I wonder what ****ELSE** has been informed. Why should P-5 be briefed on 370? Maybe on bifurcation and conversion to UT. But we sense that there was a briefing that went much deeper. Like about what happens if Terrorislum tries any more stunts to destabilize J&K.

THAT accounts for US pontifications on Restraint along Yellow Sea. Like US is restraining against Iran.

Also, briefing "P5" means briefing Tarrel and Deepel Fliend, so again, Pak must have got live update. This is all too much doublespeak and triplespeak.
Airspace closing is ominous.
There are too many straws in the wind hinting at fireworks coming inside POK.

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Re: Articles 370 and 35A Repealed, J&K and Ladakh to be Separate Union Territories

Postby yensoy » 07 Aug 2019 08:03

P5 should be briefed by saying that "we no longer consider this an international issue, so this will be our last briefing to you on this matter".

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Re: Articles 370 and 35A Repealed, J&K and Ladakh to be Separate Union Territories

Postby Katare » 07 Aug 2019 08:04

ShyamSP wrote:
Suraj wrote:I think this is primarily a question of how one parses 'scrapped'. I define the term as the constitution having been amended and the Act modified or deleted.

But that has not happened, since there has been no constitution amendment bill tabled or passed on the matter - there was a Presidential Order within the purview of Article 370, followed by a legislative act.

I prefer the term inoperative, because it matches official language, and better defines the situation - the Article remains in the constitution, and has been rendered ineffective through one of its subsections that the President has the power to exercise.


No. Inoperative is not official language but "supercede" and "repeal" are. Inoperative means it is possible to operate in the future. From Government and President's order it is done deal, superceded, repealed, abolished, scrapped.

From Government Links:

- Presidential Gazette order says current order supercedes all order of 1954 (i.e scrapping so there is no going back as future order has to come superceding this new order)
https://swarajyamag.com/insta/read-indi ... nd-kashmir

- Govt presss release on bills says repeal
http://pib.nic.in/newsite/PrintRelease. ... lid=192487
Government brings Resolution to Repeal Article 370 of the Constitution


Check Harish Salve’s interviews, being a constitutional lawyer he explains it clearly. He says in political or rhetorical sense you (media) can call it scrapped/repealed but legally 370 is still there and parts of it are operative.

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Re: Articles 370 and 35A Repealed, J&K and Ladakh to be Separate Union Territories

Postby V_Raman » 07 Aug 2019 08:07

Is there confirmation of airspace closing?

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Re: Articles 370 and 35A Repealed, J&K and Ladakh to be Separate Union Territories

Postby V_Raman » 07 Aug 2019 08:12

Maybe we told P5 that we will hold plebiscite after resettling the Pandits, taking pok back and calming the area down :twisted:

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Re: Articles 370 and 35A Repealed, J&K and Ladakh to be Separate Union Territories

Postby CRamS » 07 Aug 2019 08:34

Arm chair anal-ysis by 'grand mother' Praveen Swami warning of dire consequences

https://www.firstpost.com/india/be-warn ... 5101.htmlK

I see a striking contrast between the RAPE of TSP and the RAPE of India like this dude. Paki RAPE to the last bloke are steadfast in their position on Kashmir, "India baaad", "human rights", "UN resolutions" bla bla. Indian RAPE on the other range from outright traitors to pompous libtrads harping on democratic ideals, 'both sides', and crap like that. As if prior to revocation of 370, Kashmir Muslims were upholding Indian constitutional values. Unable to bring themselves to see the simple truth that Islamic jihad, Islamic extremism are the evil forces for the turmoil, and India is the good guy in this savage war.
Last edited by CRamS on 07 Aug 2019 09:42, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Articles 370 and 35A Repealed, J&K and Ladakh to be Separate Union Territories

Postby Kashi » 07 Aug 2019 09:02

CRamS wrote:I see a striking contrast between the RAPE of TSP and the RAPE of India like this dude. Paki RAPE to the last bloke are steadfast in their position on Kashmir, "India baaad", "human rights", "UN resolutions" bla bla.


So where's the contrast??

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Re: Articles 370 and 35A Repealed, J&K and Ladakh to be Separate Union Territories

Postby manjgu » 07 Aug 2019 09:08

CRamS totally agree ..sadhguru explained this v well. muslims are believers , so they will believe in whatever is fed to them and so there is uniformity in opinion , idea..jehad is good, yahud aur hanood ki saazish, muslman is the most evolved creature, quran has all the knowledge ( physics+chemistry+maths+sociology+etc etc), pakistan is heaven, islam is the only true religion rest all kufr ..hindus are seekers ..each seeks their own truth so there is never a uniform opinion. Which is both a strength and a weakness.

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Re: Articles 370 and 35A Repealed, J&K and Ladakh to be Separate Union Territories

Postby Kashi » 07 Aug 2019 09:12



The Swarajya report quotes The Print. None of them provide any sources or officials quotes and use vague terms such as "Apparently", "reportedly".

I am not ruling out that there may have been communications between India and US and that they would have touched upon J&K like other issues. But don't you find it a little strange that GoI, which has been keeping its cards so close to the chest of late, so much so that even folks within had no idea at what was coming, would be so forthcoming with such sensitive details, with Americans of all the people, especially just before the Lok Sabha elections?

Given the penetration of Cheeni and Baki-pasand folks in the US SD and policy making circles, such information would have been let out to them almost immediately, thereby scuppering all of GoI's carefully crafted plans.

I think such reports are just another attempt to preserve Amreeki echh&dee and to provide a perception that the recent actions by GoI had tacit approval from Unkil, even if they were as in the dark as anyone else.

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Re: Articles 370 and 35A Repealed, J&K and Ladakh to be Separate Union Territories

Postby jaysimha » 07 Aug 2019 09:23

Pakistani dollar bonds fall after Indian government revokes Kashmir's special status

https://in.reuters.com/article/pakistan ... NKCN1UV0OB

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Re: Articles 370 and 35A Repealed, J&K and Ladakh to be Separate Union Territories

Postby vimal » 07 Aug 2019 09:26

jaysimha wrote:Pakistani dollar bonds fall after Indian government revokes Kashmir's special status

https://in.reuters.com/article/pakistan ... NKCN1UV0OB

??? :-? What is the correlation?

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Re: Articles 370 and 35A Repealed, J&K and Ladakh to be Separate Union Territories

Postby jaysimha » 07 Aug 2019 09:39

As expected,,
Plea filed in Supreme Court challenging Presidential order on Article 370
https://www.business-standard.com/artic ... 688_1.html

The plea has been filed by advocate M L Sharma who claimed that the Presidential order was "illegal" as it was passed without taking consent from the state assembly ?????????

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Re: Articles 370 and 35A Repealed, J&K and Ladakh to be Separate Union Territories

Postby CRamS » 07 Aug 2019 09:41

Kashi wrote:
CRamS wrote:I see a striking contrast between the RAPE of TSP and the RAPE of India like this dude. Paki RAPE to the last bloke are steadfast in their position on Kashmir, "India baaad", "human rights", "UN resolutions" bla bla.


So where's the contrast??


Read my post a few more times, and I am sure you will see the contrast I was highlighting

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Re: Articles 370 and 35A Repealed, J&K and Ladakh to be Separate Union Territories

Postby manjgu » 07 Aug 2019 09:53

vimal wrote:
jaysimha wrote:Pakistani dollar bonds fall after Indian government revokes Kashmir's special status

https://in.reuters.com/article/pakistan ... NKCN1UV0OB

??? :-? What is the correlation?


coorelation is ...prospect of conflict increases... economy goes idownhill ...ability to repay decreases...

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Re: Articles 370 and 35A Repealed, J&K and Ladakh to be Separate Union Territories

Postby Kashi » 07 Aug 2019 10:37

CRamS wrote:Read my post a few more times, and I am sure you will see the contrast I was highlighting


What I meant to ask was that PoS has the same opinion as the Baki RAPEs, so where's the contrast? Birds of feather and all.

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Re: Articles 370 and 35A Repealed, J&K and Ladakh to be Separate Union Territories

Postby Kati » 07 Aug 2019 10:59

CRamS wrote:Arm chair anal-ysis by 'grand mother' Praveen Swami warning of dire consequences

https://www.firstpost.com/india/be-warn ... 5101.htmlK


The above page is missing. Looks like it has been removed.

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Re: Articles 370 and 35A Repealed, J&K and Ladakh to be Separate Union Territories

Postby Rudradev » 07 Aug 2019 11:05

Kashi wrote:


... But don't you find it a little strange that GoI, which has been keeping its cards so close to the chest of late, so much so that even folks within had no idea at what was coming, would be so forthcoming with such sensitive details, with Americans of all the people, especially just before the Lok Sabha elections?

Given the penetration of Cheeni and Baki-pasand folks in the US SD and policy making circles, such information would have been let out to them almost immediately, thereby scuppering all of GoI's carefully crafted plans.

I think such reports are just another attempt to preserve Amreeki echh&dee and to provide a perception that the recent actions by GoI had tacit approval from Unkil, even if they were as in the dark as anyone else.



I don't think it was even a question of H&D.

See: Trump went "on record" last week to say that Modi had asked him to mediate with Pak on Kashmir. Hai na?

So EAM Jaishankar also went "on record" last night to say that the entire US govt, from Bolton to Pompeo to Trump, knew about the 370 reversal for months before it happened.

Two can play at that game, no? :P :mrgreen:

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Re: Articles 370 and 35A Repealed, J&K and Ladakh to be Separate Union Territories

Postby pankajs » 07 Aug 2019 14:13

I don't think US was given any prior information but "may be" a day or two before and that too in very generic term e.g. "We are going to make some change on the ground in Kashmir". After all, cancellation of Amarnath Yatra first time in years and extra deployment of troops was not exactly a secret.

At the earliest Pompeyo would have been given the generic message during his visit to New Delhi about 2 weeks back. While America is out most important partner it is not our mai-bap like it is for bakis.

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Re: Articles 370 and 35A Repealed, J&K and Ladakh to be Separate Union Territories

Postby Gautam_2 » 07 Aug 2019 14:40

jaysimha wrote:As expected,,
Plea filed in Supreme Court challenging Presidential order on Article 370
https://www.business-standard.com/artic ... 688_1.html

The plea has been filed by advocate M L Sharma who claimed that the Presidential order was "illegal" as it was passed without taking consent from the state assembly ?????????


This is the same degenerate who is representing the nirbhaya rapists. Jolly LLB nothing more.

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Re: Articles 370 and 35A Repealed, J&K and Ladakh to be Separate Union Territories

Postby KLNMurthy » 07 Aug 2019 14:48

krishna_krishna wrote:
Kashi wrote:


According to the report, the meeting between Jaishankar and Pompeo took place on the sidelines of the ninth East Asia Summit Foreign Ministers’ Meeting in Bangkok, Thailand on 1 August.

However, this was reportedly not the first time when India briefed US on the issue. Earlier in February, National Security Advisor Ajit Doval had called his US counterpart John Bolton two days after Pulwama attack and told him about the Modi government’s plans to scrap the ‘special status’ accorded to Jammu and Kashmir.

As per the report, the Trump administration was apprised of the move by the Modi government as it did not want to take a chance when it came to the US, sources said.

Furthermore, on Monday (5 August), soon after the Union Home Minister announced the decision to abrogate Article 370, the Ministry of External Affairs swung into action and briefed the envoys of the P-5 nations - the US, United Kingdom, China, France and Russia- about the Centre’s move.

Besides, the envoys of all the 15 members of the United Nations Security Council (UNSC) were also briefed.

https://swarajyamag.com/insta/modi-gove ... eek-report

The Swarajya report is not original, it quotes The Print, which IIRC ran the only story on this. How trustworthy is The Print?

The report just says Jaishankar met Pompeo. From that, it is extrapolating whag J told P as if it were a fact, with no need of supporting data.

I think the whole thing is just speculation. An anonymous-but-reliable-sourced story would have a direct quote, and some corroborative info. This one just says, essentially, "someone told us thag they told America beforehand." That's it.

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Re: Articles 370 and 35A Repealed, J&K and Ladakh to be Separate Union Territories

Postby pankajs » 07 Aug 2019 14:54

Bakis give "moh tod jawab" to India by choosing FATF over commonsense ...

https://twitter.com/TimesNow/status/1159009832738775042
TIMES NOW @TimesNow

#Breaking | Pakistan releases terrorist and 26/11 mastermind Hafiz Saeed from custody in Kot Lakpat jail. | @Srinjoy_C
with details.

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Re: Articles 370 and 35A Repealed, J&K and Ladakh to be Separate Union Territories

Postby sarathy » 07 Aug 2019 15:31

pankajs wrote:Bakis give "moh tod jawab" to India by choosing FATF over commonsense ...

https://twitter.com/TimesNow/status/1159009832738775042
TIMES NOW @TimesNow

#Breaking | Pakistan releases terrorist and 26/11 mastermind Hafiz Saeed from custody in Kot Lakpat jail. | @Srinjoy_C
with details.


Sweet! This is icing on the cake - a FATF blacklisting soon based on this and further antics. NaMo/AS couldn't have timed it better. :lol:

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Re: Articles 370 and 35A Repealed, J&K and Ladakh to be Separate Union Territories

Postby pankajs » 07 Aug 2019 15:34

Watch ... Hajam Sethi again. Too many points to give you a gist without having a transcript.

Najam Sethi Analysis on Pakistan's Response to India

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Re: Articles 370 and 35A Repealed, J&K and Ladakh to be Separate Union Territories

Postby tsarkar » 07 Aug 2019 15:36

UlanBatori wrote:Even we knew that Art 35 was going to be taken down, and the military buildup was obvious. How can Pakistan not have seen all that? But it is actually none of their business.

Modi/Shah/Doval adopted Mongol/Turkic battle practice of multiple feints to disguise actual thrust.

First, Pakistani infiltration launchpads are proactively targeted.
Second, BAT teams are targeted before they launch
Third, a feint was talked about in Kargil
Fourth, threats to Amarnath Yatra including landmines and M24 sniper rifle.
Fifth, Triple Talaq Bill was used to divert peaceful's attention and also as a sounding board for Rajya Sabha maneuvering. Women's issues always get the men's attention :rotfl:

There is something called Strategic Initiative in battle. When the enemy doesnt know what you're about to do.

This is the first time I find in the history of free India that a leader has strategic initiative politically & militarily. Otherwise we've always been reactive - including Indira Gandhi in 1971.

The most beautiful thing about Modi/Shah/Doval is that they keep their mouth shut and speak only when necessary and to the precise point.

The last time this was done was when Võ Nguyên Giáp simultaneously attacked Khe Sanh and initiated the Tet Offensive in Vietnam. Even today, Americans are clueless what was his real objective - Khe Sanh or Tet. General Westmoreland and American analysts are still debating in 2019. Wise people know his objective was to create confusion in the minds of the Americans. He was so successful that Americans are still debating today.

Only one journalist - Aarti R Jerath - who was a panelist on NDTV - actually realized that all these disconnected events were connected.


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