J&K Union Territory-2019

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Manish_P
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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Postby Manish_P » 29 Aug 2019 19:00

Sir the jernails possibly allowed that cartoon because it showed only I-m-rand in a bad light.

Let's see if there is any cartoon showing the failures of Mushrat, Kiyanahi, Rawheel or Bajteraha..

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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Postby jaysimha » 29 Aug 2019 19:02

Manish_P wrote:Sir the jernails possibly allowed that cartoon because it showed only I-m-rand in a bad light.

Let's see if there is any cartoon showing the failures of Mushrat, Kiyanahi, Rawheel or Bajteraha..


sirjee Obviously they cant,, pak army will pull the trigger on them....

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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Postby Shaktimaan » 29 Aug 2019 19:06

Now that 370 is gone, as Indians the Kashmiris must be made to see that they can call achievements of India their own. They can take pride in them. Whereas the Pakis are completely bankrupt and likely to disintegrate in the coming decade.

They can use their Indian passports to travel with respect all over the world instead of being groped at every airport like a Paki passport holder.

They can point to Chandrayaan 2 and say "we did that".

They can soon be part of a 5 trillion dollar economy.

They can work in the huge software office complexes of Bengaluru and enjoy the mild climate.

They can get the best medical treatment in any city of India.

They can travel to mountains, deserts, seas, go on tiger and lion safaris, see the grand rivers like the Ganga and the Brahmaputra.

In short, they have readymade access all the achievements/institutions/resources of a great nation if only they take this golden opportunity to start afresh and become part of the Indian mainstream. Is there any KM leader who can convince them of this?

ArjunPandit
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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Postby ArjunPandit » 29 Aug 2019 19:11

^^shaktiman ji if they wanted they could have already done that. But the thing is once you are enamoured by 72 raisins the worldly pleasures seem trivial. Ask yourself who stopped them from doing it instead of showing their love for the land that has nothing to offer ot anyone? Look at whats happening in karachi for garbage. It was never a question from our side. What is required a surgery to take the tumour out...

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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Postby manjgu » 29 Aug 2019 19:51

Shaktimaan wrote:
They can travel to mountains, deserts, seas, go on tiger and lion safaris, see the grand rivers like the Ganga and the Brahmaputra.

In short, they have readymade access all the achievements/institutions/resources of a great nation if only they take this golden opportunity to start afresh and become part of the Indian mainstream. Is there any KM leader who can convince them of this?


yes .. and go to haridwar and wash away their sins !!

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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Postby Suraj » 29 Aug 2019 20:38

Shaktimaan wrote:Now that 370 is gone, as Indians the Kashmiris must be made to see that they can call achievements of India their own. They can take pride in them. Whereas the Pakis are completely bankrupt and likely to disintegrate in the coming decade.

They can use their Indian passports to travel with respect all over the world instead of being groped at every airport like a Paki passport holder.

They can point to Chandrayaan 2 and say "we did that".

They can soon be part of a 5 trillion dollar economy.

They can work in the huge software office complexes of Bengaluru and enjoy the mild climate.

They can get the best medical treatment in any city of India.

They can travel to mountains, deserts, seas, go on tiger and lion safaris, see the grand rivers like the Ganga and the Brahmaputra.

In short, they have readymade access all the achievements/institutions/resources of a great nation if only they take this golden opportunity to start afresh and become part of the Indian mainstream. Is there any KM leader who can convince them of this?

Is this meant to be facetious ? Art 370 never got in the way of any of these. In fact it never impacted their ability to enjoy the fruit of RoI . It's the converse that was not possible.

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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Postby Vikas » 29 Aug 2019 20:52

Why do we use the moniker Kashmiri Muslims when we don't call them Himachali Muslims or Odiya Muslims or Malayali Muslims or even Marathi Muslims ? Only Kashmiri Pandits have the right to add Kashmiri before their nomenclature. Others are just Muslims or usurpers or both. A muslim is a Muslim while a Kashmiri is a Kashmiri Pandit.

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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Postby A_Gupta » 29 Aug 2019 21:01

Article 370 removal + re-org of J&K:
1. Ladakh no longer dominated by Kashmir Valley.
2. Kashmir can no longer say, "gimme, gimme, or else we'll use our special status in Constitution to do something you all don't like". Last nails in the coffin of the two-nation theory or one-and-a-half-nation theory.
3. Removes delusion of Pakistan that article 370 means accession of Kashmir to India is provisional.
4. Removes some long-standing injustices to some sections of society because all of Indian law was not applicable to J&K.
5. Opens the way for better integration with Indian economy.

I expect that there will be regulations to prevent any large scale demographic or land-ownership changes.
E.g., Himachal Pradesh:

As per section 118 of the Tenancy Act, a non-Himachali cannot buy land in Himachal Pradesh.

In case you desire to buy land in the state you will have to do so in the following way:

• You may buy non-agricultural land by seeking permission from the state government.

• You will have to clearly specify the purpose for which you wish to acquire the land under Rule 38A (3) of Himachal Pradesh Tenancy and Land reform Rules 1975. You will have to state whether it is for residential /industrial/ commercial/ educational/ healthcare/ business/ agriculture based project or any other purposes.

A certificate from the respective department will be needed to justify the amount of land required. Permission can be granted for up to 500 sq mt of land for residential purpose and for other purposes it will be as per the requirement of the project.
.....


Any unique "Kashmiriyat" culture died the day they drove out the Kashmiri Pandits. Actually even before when they favored Urdu over Kashmiri. Now it is Islamization versus Indian state. There is no democratic or self-determination right to Islamization. Period.

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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Postby chetak » 29 Aug 2019 21:38

A_Gupta wrote:Article 370 removal + re-org of J&K:
1. Ladakh no longer dominated by Kashmir Valley.
2. Kashmir can no longer say, "gimme, gimme, or else we'll use our special status in Constitution to do something you all don't like". Last nails in the coffin of the two-nation theory or one-and-a-half-nation theory.
3. Removes delusion of Pakistan that article 370 means accession of Kashmir to India is provisional.
4. Removes some long-standing injustices to some sections of society because all of Indian law was not applicable to J&K.
5. Opens the way for better integration with Indian economy.

I expect that there will be regulations to prevent any large scale demographic or land-ownership changes.
E.g., Himachal Pradesh:

As per section 118 of the Tenancy Act, a non-Himachali cannot buy land in Himachal Pradesh.

In case you desire to buy land in the state you will have to do so in the following way:

• You may buy non-agricultural land by seeking permission from the state government.

• You will have to clearly specify the purpose for which you wish to acquire the land under Rule 38A (3) of Himachal Pradesh Tenancy and Land reform Rules 1975. You will have to state whether it is for residential /industrial/ commercial/ educational/ healthcare/ business/ agriculture based project or any other purposes.

A certificate from the respective department will be needed to justify the amount of land required. Permission can be granted for up to 500 sq mt of land for residential purpose and for other purposes it will be as per the requirement of the project.
.....


Any unique "Kashmiriyat" culture died the day they drove out the Kashmiri Pandits. Actually even before when they favored Urdu over Kashmiri. Now it is Islamization versus Indian state. There is no democratic or self-determination right to Islamization. Period.


there is nothing like

"Insaniyat, Kashmiriyat, Jamhooriyat (humanity, Kashmiri culture, democracy)"

its all taqiya and predigested pap to befool the residents of India.

as long as they have their books and their unabashed extraterritorial allegiances and focus on domination of locals by any means, the words like "Insaniyat, Kashmiriyat, Jamhooriyat (humanity, Kashmiri culture, democracy)" or the equivalent in any other setting is just so much hot air and is meant to divert your attention while knives are being sharpened.

ABV was not always right every time.

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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Postby KJo » 29 Aug 2019 21:56

Shaktimaan wrote:Now that 370 is gone, as Indians the Kashmiris must be made to see that they can call achievements of India their own. They can take pride in them. Whereas the Pakis are completely bankrupt and likely to disintegrate in the coming decade.

They can use their Indian passports to travel with respect all over the world instead of being groped at every airport like a Paki passport holder.

They can point to Chandrayaan 2 and say "we did that".

They can soon be part of a 5 trillion dollar economy.

They can work in the huge software office complexes of Bengaluru and enjoy the mild climate.

They can get the best medical treatment in any city of India.

They can travel to mountains, deserts, seas, go on tiger and lion safaris, see the grand rivers like the Ganga and the Brahmaputra.

In short, they have readymade access all the achievements/institutions/resources of a great nation if only they take this golden opportunity to start afresh and become part of the Indian mainstream. Is there any KM leader who can convince them of this?


Saar, are you serious? KMs don't care about any of that, they have been islamically brainwashed.
Besides, KMs had nothing to do with all these achievements, either personally or spiritually. They now have a chance to be part of new things. Or move out to wherever they want.

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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Postby Shaktimaan » 29 Aug 2019 22:05

Saars, I am serious. Not meant to be facetious. The Kashmir issue is tangled up in the exceedingly corrupt political dynasties, the pampered separatists, the track-thoo urban naxals supporting them from the rest of India, Paki terrorist infiltration etc.

All that is swept away now. Pakistan is near bankruptcy.

Kashmiris have a historic chance to make a fresh start. I mean that from a spirit of reconciliation. But they have to grab this chance while the window is still open.

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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Postby Suraj » 29 Aug 2019 22:25

It is facetious in the sense that the entire issue has been misrepresented in the post, and sounds extremely misleading to a naive reader.

Art 370 was ALWAYS a constraint imposed on the rest of India and not on J&K or its residents at all, with an interlocutor class always sitting between New Delhi and the direct administration of the territory and its people.

Kashmir has never had any constraint in the way of being part of RoI, and Art 370 has never related to any constrained imposed on J&K. There's no record of it ever impacting Kashmiris from doing anything in RoI . Never mind folks like JLN (even if he was 2 generations removed from being a resident), even the Hurryrats set camp in New Delhi to do their business freely.

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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Postby rajkhalsa » 30 Aug 2019 01:59

Sumair wrote:What is this innate urge to name any one with a contrarian view a Paki? I have given my identification in the above post for anyone to verify, or the forum moderators can verify via my associated email address. If my recollection of events is different than yours, then you can simply choose to ignore them or counter them with your own narrative. What is the need for personal attacks???


:roll: :roll:

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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Postby sudeepj » 30 Aug 2019 02:07

So far, four murders by Pakistani terrorists:
https://www.deccanchronicle.com/nation/current-affairs/280819/srinagar-two-nomadic-gujjars-killed-by-militants.html

Truck driver murdered by stone throwers:
https://www.france24.com/en/20190826-truck-driver-killed-in-kashmir-ahead-of-modi-trump-talks

65-year-old shopkeeper killed by terrorists in Jammu and Kashmir
https://www.dnaindia.com/india/report-6 ... ir-2785997

No fatalities in any action by security forces.

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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Postby Varoon Shekhar » 30 Aug 2019 02:21

^
Have *any* of the international media- the NY Times, Washington Post, Huffington Post, CNN, BBC, Al Jazeera- reported these killings? They are oh so conveniently on the spot when there is a question of official accuracy/honesty about large crowds protesting goes( not that they report those incidents honestly either) But when it comes to ghastly terrorist attacks, they are noticeably absent. They could at least mention them, even if they are at some distance from the incidents.

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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Postby UlanBatori » 30 Aug 2019 03:49

manjgu wrote:
Shaktimaan wrote:
They can travel to mountains, deserts, seas, go on tiger and lion safaris, see the grand rivers like the Ganga and the Brahmaputra.

In short, they have readymade access all the achievements/institutions/resources of a great nation if only they take this golden opportunity to start afresh and become part of the Indian mainstream. Is there any KM leader who can convince them of this?


yes .. and go to haridwar and wash away their sins !!


All this time the buggers were putting on their fB Profiles that they hailed from "Indian-Occubied CashMore". See SushmaSwaraj tweet on previous page. :twisted: She was waaaaaay too nice. I would have given that sh!t a New BassBort that went flashed Red at every airport. :mrgreen:

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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Postby ramana » 30 Aug 2019 05:23

Old BR Monitor Article on POK and Northern Areas or Gilgit Baltistan to refresh our memories

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/archives/ ... sturi.html



PAKISTANOCCUPIED KASHMIR AND NORTHERN AREAS

DR. BHASHYAM KASTURI

The Kargil intrusion sbrought into focus Pakistan Occupied Kashmir, or as they are known in Pakistan - the Northern Areas. This large chunk of territory annexed by Pakistan in1947, provided the bulk of the manpower for the intrusions, consisting of the Northern Light Infantry of the Pakistan army. The area also provided the logistic base from which operations were launched and sustained in the Kargil region of Jammu and Kashmir on the Indian side of the Line of Control (LOC). The area for intrusion and the military units chosen suggest that Pakistan had in mind to put into practice a covert plan, which depended on surprise and called for the non-participation of main part of the Pakistan army consisting of Punjabi musalmans, in order that India did not become aware of the plan.

It is in this context that this papers tudies the region, its people and the military component. It argues that the Kargil intrusions have brought into focus the NA and this India must take advantage of as a foreign policy tool. In other words, just as Pakistan keeps referring to Kashmir in international fora, India must also refer to POK and the NA and the state of affairs there.

The Area, People and History

The Northern Areas of Pakistan consists of the five districts of Gilgit, Ghizer, Diamer, Skardu and Ganche. The total area is 28,000 sq miles with a population of 1.2 million. The district of Chitral has always been a part of the Northern Areas till the arrival of the British in the 19th century. Pakistan Occupied Kashmir(Azad Kashmir as it known in Pakistan) on the other hand is just 4,494 sq miles with a population of 1.5 million.

The Northern Areas border Afghanistan, the Central Asian Republic of Tajikstan and Xingjiang province of China. On the south it has 300 miles of border with Kashmir and Ladakh. Ethnically the Northern Areas and Chitral have Tajik, Uzbek, Mongol, Turkmen and Greek population. Also the area has Baltees, Shins, Yashkuns, Mughals, Kashmiris, Pathans, Ladakis and Turks who speak the dialects of Balti, Shina, Brushaki, Khawer, Turki, Tibetan, Pushto and Persian. Shias and Sunnis in the area have their own sub-divisions. The Shias are sub-divided into Asharis, Ismailis and Noor Bakshis.

The Northern Areas (NA) are administratively not part of POK and are ruled directly by the Pakistan government from Islamabad. It is governed by the Frontier Crime Regulation framed by the British. The NA are ruled directly by the Minister of State for Kashmir and Northern areas (Pakistan) with thehelp of six officers, all non-natives. In 1990 a writ petition was filed in the High Court of Azad Kashmir by various parties to bring the Northern Areas under the administrative control of the Azad Kashmir government. In March 1993, the High Courtg ave its verdict in favour of the petitioners.

The NA remains a neglected area with no university or professional colleges. There is no industry and subsistence is largely on tourism. While people from POK can emigrate, those from NA need an exit visa rarely issued. According to one source adult franchise is also a distant dream in the northern areas. No person or party can call for self-determination even though the Pakistan government has itself admitted to the courts that Northern Areas are not part of Pakistan.

In 1994 and 1999, Pakistan Federal government announced reforms which included elections to the NorthernA reas Council. However these changes are cosmetic. A Pak commentator notes that people of the northern areas are denied representation in the parliament and unlike in the case of Kashmir, they are also denied a semblance of self-government and have been forced to accept Islamabad's hegemony.

The earliest sectarian clashes occurred in Chitral in 1981 when a mob led by Maulana Ubaidullah stormed a hostel run by the Aga Khan Foundation. A year later, Sunni-Shia clashes occurred in the area. The Shias organized themselves under the Tehrik-e-Nifaz-e-Fiqah-e-Jaffariya (TNFJ). The Ismailis and Noor Bakshis, though followers of the Fiqah-e-Jaffariya, were not accepted into the fold of the former party. The two groups did however play a balancing role in the area. The Aga Khan Foundation has been a premier institution working for socio-economic development in the region. The Aga Khan is reported to have commissioned a in-depth study of the region. The study says poverty and economic deprivation have made the area a breeding ground for sectarian militancy. The study also pointed to dangers that Ismailis faced in the Chitral region. According to one Pakistani writer in Chitral alone, about 10% Ismailis converted to sunnism, either out of financial motives or to save their lives or escape the pressure of the social boycott imposed on them by Maulana Ubaidullah's fatwa.

POK has also not been quiet in 1998-99.Trends indicate an on-going power struggle on several issues. In June98, a no-confidence motion was passed with more than two-thirds majority in the POK Assembly against the Speaker Raja Mumtaz Hussain Rathore chairman of People's Party (N) and Raja Assar Ahmad Abbasi. The latter being the Deputy Speaker in the Azad Jammu and Kashmir Legislative Assembly. Actually Rathore had alleged that the POK government was corrupt and he sought change of the present govt. under Sultan Mahmud.

And towards the end of June 1998 came news that AJK Assembly debating the 1998-99 fiscal budget came down heavily on the government for not coming up to the expectations of the people and for not fulfilling its commitments to resolve their problems and grievances.

Opposition party Amir Jamaat-e-Islami Azad Kashmir leader Abdul Rashid Turabi criticized the AJK government and said that corruption culture had developed in the area and funds were being misused. The Minister f or Forests Latif Akber demanded that the Pakistan government pay the royalty for the Mangla dam to the AJK government and shares in the income of the state's property in Pakistan.

Columnist Fahid Husain paints a picture of POK that speaks two voices. At one level he writes of migration from POK due to lack of employment opportunity. Second, is problems of development, but high levels of community participation in development. Also of note is mention of the fact that POK has little income generation of its own, most of the revenue coming from Pakistan.

Two societal problems remain and are on the increase. There is corruption in the top echelons of POK government and society and there is a timber mafia that is rapidly denuding the area of its forest cover. Where does that leave the area?

Politicians still have to take an oath of allegiance to Kashmir's accession to Pakistan. They have to sign a declaration that Kashmir is part of Pakistan. And no Prime Minister or minister in POK can assume office unless a similar oath is taken. All high ranking officials are appointed directly from Pakistan. These facts must be highlighted to show the control that Islamabad exercises over POK. Under Art. 32 of the interim constitution, the Legislative Assembly cannot make any laws relating to defence and security of the area, currency, external affairs and trade.

It is worth noting that while Jammu and Kashmir on the Indian side has a special provision in the Indian constitution, Art. 370 to protect the interests of the state and its people, there is no such thing in POK or in the Northern Areas. India has held democratic elections in the state on several occasions. This has hardly occurred in either POK or NA. The people in Northern Areas are neglected and ruled with a firm hand by the Pakistan government.

The Northern Light Infantry

During the 1880's after the annexation of the North West Frontier Province the British raised local tribal units to manage the region. These were Pakistan militia and scout units, which were employed in the front and on the flanks for gathering information and protection.

Later the role of these units was changed to picqueting and guarding of routes well before the main military force could be deployed. At the time of the creation of Pakistan in 1947, the militia and scouts were gradually organised and equipped with modern weapons.

At this time, the area had the Karakoram Scouts with HQ at Skardu in Baltistan. The Northern Scouts with HQ at Gilgit. And the Gilgit Scouts also with HQ at Gilgit. In 1973 all these units were reorganised as the Northern Light Infantry (NLI) battalions. A 1993 study of the Pak army showed the recruitment to the NLI from Gilgit 55%,from Baltistan 35% and from other regions 10%. The ethnic composition of the NLI battalions shows they consist of 18% Sunnis, 49% Shias, 23% are Ismailees and 10%are Noor Bakshis. The NLI are actually special troops, trained in anti-heliborne, commando operations and snow warfare. The commando trained personnel are also deputed to the Special Service Group (SSG).

The Kargil operation was planned and executed by the Pakistan army. It had been planned several years ahead, but its final shape was given by Gen Musharaff and his Chief of General Staff, Lt Gen Mohd Aziz Khan. Also involved were the Force Commander Northern Areas (FCNA) and the GOC 10 Corps, under whom the NLI was operational. HQ FCNA has under its command four infantry brigades, 32, 60, 80 and 323. To keep the operation secret and to make use of the special training of the forces in the area, the NLI was chosen for the task of intrusion and occupation of heights of Kargil.

In order to further strengthen security, the NA were placed under the operational control of the Pak Army. This prevented media teams and others from asking too many questions. The main aim of the employment of the NLI was secrecy, expertise in this mission and to prevent any backlash of failure reaching the Punjabi heartland. These troops stiffened by Special Services Group (SSG) companies organised the intrusion backed b ylogistic support from the Mujahideen in POK. Military estimates put this figure as 2,000. Of the NLI battalions who were active in Kargil, 3th, 4th, 5th, 6th, 8th, 11th and 12th.

The enemy when initially infiltrated had plans to occupy and stay. And then the purpose was to interdict the Srinagar-Leh road. Once the Indian army and air force reacted to the incursions, it became difficult for Pakistan to hide the facts. The soldiers of the NLI fought well, and as they were placed on the ridgelines in well entrenched positions they could and did launch counter-attacks when their main positions were taken. Leadership was poor and logistic supply being difficult, morale dipped in the pockets of intrusion once India put the pressure on. Radio intercepts often spoke of the low rations and morale, but the Pak troops managed to get reinforcements from areas which the Indian troops were unable to seal.

It was only after the decision to withdraw was taken, was it possible for the NLI troops to return across the LOC. But even for this they had come prepared. The withdrawing forces planted thousands of landmines across the path, to prevent the forward movement of Indian forces. This has led to large number of casualties for the army who have had to clear virtually every inch of the ground. The fact of the matter is that Pakistan succeeded in tactically gaining ground in this operation but failed to gain strategically. Once the intrusion was discovered the choice before Pakistan was to either withdraw or to stay and fight. The latter they chose to do but without apparent plans to force the issue.

The Northern Areas thus suddenly came under the limelight and it witnessed the visits of Pak army chief and prime minister Nawaz Sharif. Both promised major sops to the people and to the men of the NLI. Monetary packages as also infrastructural development were announced with much fanfare. It was also announced that every dead soldier of the NLI would get a compensation of $10,000 while the families of officers would be given a plot of land in any place of their choice in Pakistan. This was clearly a move to reduce the resentment building up within the NA.

In fact, interrogation of the soldiers taken prisoner by the Indian Army during OP Vijay in Kargil show that NLI personnel resented the fact that they were being used as cannon fodder by the Pak Punjabi musalman. The varied ethnic composition of the NLI provides us now with some clues about the variety of linguistic groups found in the intercepted radio conversations. The employment of the NLI served Pakistan's interest, both in terms of operational secrecy and for the specialised training and equipment of theNLI.

Recent Events

The Kargil situation brought home the fact that Northern Areas were not being treated on par with the rest of Pakistan. The Pak military took over Gilgit and Baltistan. The fear of a popular uprising for the restoration of basic rights prompted Islamabad to remove civilian rule.

In fact in a significant development in May this year the Supreme Court in Pakistan directed Islamabad to make the necessary amendments to the constitution to ensure that people of the Northern Areas enjoyed their fundamental rights of governed through their chosen representatives and to have access to justice through an independent judiciary. The SC directed that this action be undertaken within six months.

The situation in NA was also reflected in a letter written by a Senior Superintendent of Police Amir Hamza, posted in Gilgit to Kofi Annan, the UN Secretary General. In it he compares the present conditions in the areas as being worse than that of the East India company. Additionally, he lists several areas in which Kashmir on the other side of the LOC was much better off. The police officer picked on evidence from an official statement in the Pakistani supreme court, which says that Parliament "has by law yet to admit into the federation Northern Areas on such terms and conditions as it thinks fit."

The post-Kargil environment in the Northern Areas witnessed local uprisings against the Mujahideen who had retreated from Kargil. Clashes between locals and militants belonging to the Lashkar-e-Toiba in Skardu inAugust 1999 led to clamping down by the army. Similar disturbances were also reported from Shigar, North East of Skardu and Rondu, west of Skardu on the Skardu-Gilgit road.

Locals met with the 62 Brigade Commander and other local police officials, demanded that all the remaining militants in the city be removed within 24 hours. The cause of the unrest was the bitterness of the people of the Northern Areas about the militants getting all the credit for doing nothing while the NLI took heavy casualties. The local people made so many sacrifices but could not appreciate that the army was disguising themselves as militants during the Kargil crisis and paying them also.

The fact remains that focus on the NA has increased due to Kargil, both in Pakistan and outside it. There is an important lesson for India. It is for India to explain to the world how the people of the region live, in comparison to which the state of Jammu and Kashmir is better off and its people, though plagued by insurgency do manage to make a living for themselves.



Dr.Kasturi is currently Defence Editor with the Deccan Herald newspaper. He has been a visiting fellow at the Stimson Center and is a former editor of the Indian Defence Review



Copyright © Bharat Rakshak. Excerpted from Indian Defence Review Vol.14 (3) 1999. With permission from © Lancer Publishers.

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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Postby UlanBatori » 30 Aug 2019 07:26

Vikas wrote:Why do we use the moniker Kashmiri Muslims when we don't call them Himachali Muslims or Odiya Muslims or Malayali Muslims or even Marathi Muslims ? Only Kashmiri Pandits have the right to add Kashmiri before their nomenclature. Others are just Muslims or usurpers or both. A muslim is a Muslim while a Kashmiri is a Kashmiri Pandit.

The term is KVM. Not necessarily an endearing term. Connotation of traitorous secessionist layabout.
Actually there are Kerala Muslims (Malappuram for instance). While on this thread one might go unchallenged, claiming that Muslims do not belong in Kashmir, the reality for over 1000 years is that there is a large number of naitive Kashmiris who happen to be Muslim. Someone who was born and brought up there is most certainly Kashmiri: religion does not change that. OTOH, the trouble is that 1989 is a long way in the past: Most of the present Pandit population was born outside Kashmir.

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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Postby banrjeer » 30 Aug 2019 10:29

The term Kashmiri pandit and even Kashmiri hindu is detrimental in any fora outside of India. I would argue that even within India such branding has got them no where in terms compensation.

They should call themselves as simply Kashmiri or Kashmir natives. We are screwing them by calling them Pandits. They are shooting themselves in the foot by calling themselves Pandits.

Hindus are very low in the the pecking order/priorities of political correctness and legal redressal in the world. Why queer the pitch and hurt the cause.

Heres Modi's pre election statement not only for displaced Kashmiris from 1990 but also POK refugees from 1947.

https://www.business-standard.com/artic ... 576_1.html

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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Postby darshan » 30 Aug 2019 10:58

Intolerance gang forgot to cry on this.

Kashmiri girls marry two Bihari boys, Parvez and Tabrez, after abrogation of Article 370; girls’ father files ‘abduction’ complaint
https://www.opindia.com/2019/08/kashmir ... idnapping/
Supaul Deputy Superintendent of Police Vidyasagar said, “A team of Jammu and Kashmir police reached here and arrested them. The accused are saying that the women willingly married them.”

Later, all four of them were produced in a Supaul court where the two sisters recorded their statements before the magistrate. The Kashmiri girls said they were adults and married the two men on their own will without any coercion. The sisters pleaded that they should be allowed to live with their husbands. The court allowed the Kashmir police to take them back on transit remand.

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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Postby Sachin » 30 Aug 2019 11:13

darshan wrote:Kashmiri girls marry two Bihari boys, Parvez and Tabrez, after abrogation of Article 370; girls’ father files ‘abduction’ complaint

What I also noticed is that the boys are also Muslims, but from Bihar. Looks like Kashmir valley is completely cleaned up on non-Muslims, and the Kashmir freeloaders allow Muslims from other parts of India to come in as non-permanant workers for doing all the menial jobs. Now this is some fantastic concept of Kashmiriyat (unique identity etc. etc.). :roll:.

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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Postby Sachin » 30 Aug 2019 11:18

More central teams head to J&K ahead of bifurcation
Report reads - Another team of the Ministry of Development of the North Eastern Region (DoNER) will also fly to the state soon to assist the local administration in the areas of horticulture and organic cultivation. Jammu and Kashmir has a similar topography of that of the north-east.

My humble suggestion would be to develop the Ladakh region first and improve people's living standards there. The valley freeloaders can perhaps wait for some more time.

Prospect of 50k jobs brings joy to Kashmir
Report reads - Amid the prevailing uncertainty, Dar admits that like every other Kashmiri, he is concerned about his identity. “But revoking Article 370 may also have some positives.

Identity crisis such as the above will go for a change once hunger sets in. And the freeloader mentality also would go soon after that :roll:. The Kashmiri valley folks needs to have one primary lesson first; NO freeloading.

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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Postby Yagnasri » 30 Aug 2019 11:21

Anyone has any details of the subsidies Kashmir gets from GoI Budget till now. There are no details widely avaliable.

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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Postby mmasand » 30 Aug 2019 11:51

More propaganda from the beeb today. Nicola Careem manufacturing news on the basis of images 'supplied' to them of randoms unverified.

Somebody please send some khujli powder to the Delhi desk.

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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Postby chetak » 30 Aug 2019 14:38

they certainly have correctly identified the levers that they have been most using against India.


twitter


The new comedy show :

“Islamic Republic of Pakistan” wants secularism in India.

“Communist China” wants democracy in Kashmir.

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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Postby UlanBatori » 30 Aug 2019 17:00

For the econ pandits here (no pun intended), this is the Core Issue that I see:

1. "Kashmiris" :(( :(( about Indian Exploitation and Oppression. Scream about "Azadi!" We will ignore for the moment the silliness of Azadi given demonstrated Paki intent to invade the moment they think that is possible.

2. Art 370 is **NOT** what gave 'Autonomy', AFAIK. Art 370 gave Protected Status. It was a SonsOfThe(Night)Soil thing, keeping out investment and development. Autonomy came from Statehood which is now shaheed. But they still have UT status, and I would say that Dilli for example is pretty autonomous and extremely powerful. Don't know about other UTs (and not much about Dilli except that it is badly misruled).

3. So we would assume that Development has lagged for two reasons:
(a) Indian Occupiers are not interested in the People, only in the Land. Well, yes, the people to enslave and exploit them.
(b) Article 370 Protectionism keeps out initiative, investment, jobs, dynamic economics.

4. BUT.... and here is the kicker. No less than the Sultan of the JNU "students" has come out declaring that "KASHMIR DOES NOT NEED MORE DEVELOPMENT". Wonder of wonders! After 72 years of Colonial Imperialist Hindoo Fundamentalist Oppression, Kashmir claims to be richer than the rest of India!!!!!! And they can point to infrastructure, nice clothes, cars, an AK-47 in every home, and IED in every BakPak...
Now Mukthar Ahmed of SeeEnnEnn points to "statistics" that show that Kashmir Economy has flourished, and WAS flourishing and racing ahead of the overall Indian economy. Until of course Modi out of jealosy and hate, poured 600,000,000 yindoos soldiers to torture and suppress the dynamic, productive Kashmiriyat.

So we need some deeper knalwlidj on this Miracle On the Dal: HOW has Kashmir become so rich, when there is hardly any industry, hain? Why can't other states emulate these brilliant people? (i.e., it wouldn't happen to be because they are pampered using tax extorted from the rest of India, would it?)

I sincerely request ppl to please contribute hard data on the above, so that we can start writing about the Miracle On The Dal.

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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Postby habal » 30 Aug 2019 17:09

mmasand wrote:More propaganda from the beeb today. Nicola Careem manufacturing news on the basis of images 'supplied' to them of randoms unverified.

Somebody please send some khujli powder to the Delhi desk.


twitter banned a lot of paki ids for spreading fake news. It looks like B-team in bartania has been entrusted the task of picking up the slack.

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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Postby mmasand » 30 Aug 2019 17:31

habal wrote:
mmasand wrote:More propaganda from the beeb today. Nicola Careem manufacturing news on the basis of images 'supplied' to them of randoms unverified.

Somebody please send some khujli powder to the Delhi desk.


twitter banned a lot of paki ids for spreading fake news. It looks like B-team in bartania has been entrusted the task of picking up the slack.


Wonder what the British taxpayer thinks of them going door to door with thugs demanding you pay your license fee (you have to pay the BBC to watch TV at home) to manufacture BS that affects their own probability of a FTA post Oct 31.

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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Postby UlanBatori » 30 Aug 2019 18:07

We need to CALMLY and with absolute cold discipline, collect these articles.
Consider what they actually claim: I am **NOT*** acknowledging that they have any truth but IF they HAD any truth what is it?
a) Indian army is going into the villages and catching the stone-throwers. Don't give me that cra* about the Innocent Victims beaten black and blue just to reveal names of stone-throwers: a moment's reflection will tell you that these ARE the stone-throwers, and this is what happens to them back at the Gentle Interview Centers.
b) IOW, none is missing nails nor has been shot. Some claim to have received wake-up calls via electricity, most report impact exercise, some report gymnastics with varying direction of G-vector.
c) Hope to find time somewhere to get some references on how the British Army treated IRA bombers and other terrorists who got caught. And how long they spend in jail, even now. How they have been treating the BakPakis is unknown, but I am quite sure that there was some urgent purpose in all those raids in Bakistan West (London suburbs) after each train bombing, where the ***DEF types were lamenting about missing members.
d) So I read the Beeb articles, and decided that even if I allow them to be 100% true in showing those blue-tattooed limbs and kisses on the back, and the reports of upside-downing and shocks, this is just most reassuring that the IA/ polis are just following kind and civilized investigational tactics. I totally disbelieve the assertions from Beeb and their Sources about these being innocent.
e) The main thing new in the present situation, I believe, is that the 144CrPc and the availability of lots of Amit's Couriers allows them to go systematically sweeping door to door, compare mugshots of stone-throwers against residents, and invite said residents back to the Center For Gentle Interviews.
f) Spend a few minutes asking yourself about the alternatives. If the violence was allowed to expand, the options would disappear, and the IA/polis would have to do what US polis does: shoot on sight or out of sight. On the other hand, they are apparently NOT doing the US things:
- WaterBoarding
- Outdoor in-the-buff lounging in 30F weather
- Dogs

g) plus other innovations not suitable for a family-friendly forum like this.
Last edited by UlanBatori on 30 Aug 2019 18:35, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Postby A_Gupta » 30 Aug 2019 18:18

Abhijit Iyer-Mitra
https://theprint.in/opinion/demonetisat ... ep/283642/
Demonetisation, GST, now Kashmir. Modi govt doesn’t think beyond the first step

Worryingly, an anonymous, but clearly well-informed, piece that came out a few days ago seemed to throw light on the extent to which the security apparatus of regime ancien in Kashmir has been compromised; in fact, it is being empowered by the new dispensation. For their part, this same old guard was “cannibalising members of the old corrupt gravy train into the new corrupt gravy train”. The article also proceeded to give the examples of Shah Faesal and Shehla Rashid in addition to several others.

Government supporters would say this is not the case. Their main argument is that unlike the previous counter-insurgency attempts that would be followed by the election of same politicians, the entire ecosystem has been targeted this time: newspapers that used to coordinate stone pelting and tacks according to some; banks that were used for money laundering; mainstream political parties that indulged in corruption in dispensing central governments funds; and the Hurriyat which received money from Pakistan.

They would also contend that unlike 1987, when the opposition felt it had no options and thus turned to terrorism (the Muslim United Front’s Syed Salahuddin who went on to head the Hizbul Mujahideen while the MUF largely became the present-day Hurriyat), the Muftis, the Abdullahs, the Geelanis and the Mirwaizs have been part of the gravy train for so long that despite having no options, they will prefer a cushy life to one of exile and hard work at the behest of a capricious and murderous foreign government. Moreover, this felling of the old leaders has allowed a new crop of leaders to grow.

To a large extent this is true; but just like the central government, this narrative too falls into the same trap, where the Intelligence Bureau and the Jammu and Kashmir police are assumed as straight players that haven’t been incentivised and corrupted by a conflict economy. Even assuming they haven’t been corrupted and accepting that intelligence gathering is by nature a highly amoral, dirty game full of shades of grey, the bureau and the police still need to be reined in, of which there are absolutely no signs. It is pertinent to ask then: under what principle of counter-insurgency or good governance were Shah Faesal and Shehla Rashid detained, under what circumstances were they released, and how was it different from the case of Omar Abdullah and Mehbooba Mufti, and how is the re-arrest of Shah Faesal justified while Shehla remains loose? At some point, the Modi government needs to introspect.

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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Postby UlanBatori » 30 Aug 2019 18:37

I have a feeling that of those 10,000 govt jaab vacancies 8000 are for posts in PORK when the present incumbents run away.
The remaining 2000 are to replace J&K polis and other "civil sarbhi" aphsars who are in hiding or breaking rocks in Arunachal.

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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Postby CRamS » 30 Aug 2019 20:35

A_GuptaJi, I find this dude Abhijit Iyer Mitra a tad know-all kind of hot air balloon. What does he want ModiJi to do in Kashmir?

As it is, the so called 'international community' is breathing down his neck and watching every move he makes in J&K. One mis-step and a soldier or police shooting a KM, and the 'international community' will slap him (ModiJi) hard.

On the other hand, we know 90+% of KMs (my guess) want secession from India and join their Paki lovers. And so any restrictions lifted, they will start pelting stones and conduct suicide attacks with TSP's help, and in the ensuing battles, the same 'international community' will cry 'human rights'.

All said and done, ModiJi has withstood the pressure and held fort. As always the wild card is TSP. Looks like at the moment, they are only crying hoarse. But I suspect they are plotting something big to provoke India big time and then say "we told you so".

On another note, can you guess who wrote this op-ed in the NYT? If you guessed some ModiJi hater within the Khan market Lutyen gang or extreme lunatic louts like Adhothi or Pankaj Misra or Rana Ayyub (all darlings of the white west), you would be on target. But its by Taliban Khan begging 'international community' to force India hand over Kashmir valley to TSP on a silver platter or else mushroom cloud.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/30/opin ... istan.html

The level of false hoods that TSP invokes to masquerade its real intentions is staggering. Here are a few.

1. "We are concerned about Kashmir people". Reality: We want Kashmir and we will send pigLeTs to provoke India and then cry for the "Kashmiri people".

2. "UN resolutions". Reality, TSP could give a flying pig for UN resolutions. They themselves have flouted them. All they want is the Muslim valley

3. "ModiJi is Hitler, RSS is fascist". Reality: this one takes the cake. None can be more anti-Semitic and hateful of Jews than TSP elite and their aam Abdul, but invoke Hitler as a way of getting attention of white west.

4. "Support Right of self determination". Reality: My goodness, if only the pigs in NYT, WP, BBC etc look a little beyond their anti-India, anti-Hindu lens, this claim of TSP is so laughable that they would at the very least nuance their hateful pieces against India a bit and give some context to what India is up against.

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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Postby yensoy » 30 Aug 2019 20:41

UlanBatori wrote:We need to CALMLY and with absolute cold discipline, collect these articles.
Consider what they actually claim: I am **NOT*** acknowledging that they have any truth but IF they HAD any truth what is it?
...


So here is the thing. We had the Burmese military take on the Rohingyas, which resulted in lakhs of them washing up as refugees in Bangladesh, India and other countries.

How many refugees has J&K produced till date? They don't need to get on a boat - they can fly down to Delhi, fly out on their Indian passport and claim refugee status. They can do it in the Western countries; they can also do it in Pakistan, Malaysia, Turkey, Indonesia and a host of Islamic countries in case that is their preference. They can currently get a visa on arrival in Indonesia or Thailand or Qatar or Sri Lanka. So the visa thingy isn't relevant. They can go down to the UN office in these countries and claim refugee status.

Again, how many refugees has J&K produced?
Last edited by yensoy on 30 Aug 2019 20:42, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Postby Kashi » 30 Aug 2019 20:41

CRamS wrote:As it is, the so called 'international community' is breathing down his neck and watching every move he makes in J&K. One mis-step and a soldier or police shooting a KM, and the 'international community' will slap him (ModiJi) hard.


Perhaps in your dhoti shivering dreams. In the real world, there are many other fish to fry.

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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Postby banrjeer » 30 Aug 2019 21:15

The valley should not get any internet except cafes/hotspots where people pay for security metal detectors the works...

If there’s no demand ihats completely fine

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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Postby CRamS » 30 Aug 2019 21:18

Kashi wrote:Perhaps in your dhoti shivering dreams. In the real world, there are many other fish to fry.


Do you and Pankaj types wait with bots or something to see any post from me and then pounce on it like a wolf :-).

If you think so called 'international community' is not mediating behind the scenes, I can't help your delusion. I don't have a problem with it provided India's core interests are not compromised.

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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Postby williams » 30 Aug 2019 21:28

On the other hand, we know 90+% of KMs (my guess) want secession from India and join their Paki lovers. And so any restrictions lifted, they will start pelting stones and conduct suicide attacks with TSP's help, and in the ensuing battles, the same 'international community' will cry 'human rights'.


CRamS Ji,
Where are you getting the data that KMs conducting suicide attacks? If you read the stats below for the last 10 years we had just 20 suicide attacks all from JEM and LET. My point is KMs may hate India, but they are not stupid to lose their life for such hatred. Even stone pelting will stop when they are dealt with a firm hand.

https://www.satp.org/satporgtp/countries/india/states/jandk/data_sheets/index.html

If the current security blanket is imposed ad infinitum, KM will behave normally over time. We need to take the fight across the border and put the Pakis in their place. All we need is a govt with the political will and the intellectual courage to call the bluff of this bankrupt terrorist country. Balakot legitimized our right to preemptively eliminate the terrorist camps. Next time we can do it without announcing it to the world and make that as a routine practice. That along with the usual diplomatic stranglehold on the Pakis will bring peace in the region.

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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Postby Vikas » 30 Aug 2019 22:20

Nothing brings people in line as the force. KM's have been pampered since 1947 giving them a veto over anything and everything J&K was. Even today, the conversation is only about KV (Ladakhis must be thanking their stars). Did someone ask, How come Ladakh has no problem with India or no one is pelting stones in Jammu despite Jammu now having a sizeable Muslim population (mostly from Kashmir).
World has little time or patience for Kashmir when there are larger demons to fight including falling economy and US-China trade war and maybe war with Iran on the sidelines. Modi Ji could not have picked a better time to bring the cows home.

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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Postby banrjeer » 30 Aug 2019 22:46

banrjeer wrote:The valley should not get any internet except cafes/hotspots where people pay for security metal detectors the works...

If there’s no demand ihats completely fine


Same with mobile towers.

Dismantle all except a few within secure conclaves with planned ranges close to secure road networks

non stone throwing people should not have to subsidize any anomalous or extra security and services/infra for these morons

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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Postby Bart S » 30 Aug 2019 23:03

VERY Important read and useful info:
https://sniwire.com/defence-security/ag ... half-lies/


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