J&K Union Territory-2019

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pankajs
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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Postby pankajs » 05 Sep 2019 21:25

Cain Marko wrote:
SBajwa wrote:Only way forward for India is to have heavy armed forces (Army, Air forces everywhere in Afghanistan and Navy at Chahbahar) in Aghanistan !!! That will fix once and for all in Bhartiya Jambudweep aka Indian Subcontinent!!!

Increasingly one feels that this is the way. Seems a safer bet than taking a defensive posture and fighting the war closer to home.

Chabahar is in Iran.

India will not deploy in Afghanistan any substantial military. The logistics doesn't support any such deployment either via Chabhar or via Gilgit-Baltisthan.

All routes to Afghanistan run through Islamabad and If needed we will have to fight it through bakistan.

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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Postby pankajs » 05 Sep 2019 21:32

Cain Marko wrote:
ramana wrote:
This moron is doing his best to damage GOI negotiating position.
And has an army of useful idiots who think he is the greatest.

Moron or not, the man has singlehandedly done more damage to corruption and bif than most. Not to mention most of his economic predictions are coming true. He is eminently qualified for the finmin position but is curiously overlooked and people with a fraction of his abilities chosen.

Swamy, for all his brilliance, cannot be trusted. For him everything is about himself plus he is not a team player. On top of that he is a loose cannon. Hence the powers that be in have kept him at arms length.

He has my respect for his single handed fight against the Gandhis but that is about it.

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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Postby Gautam_2 » 05 Sep 2019 21:38

SBajwa wrote:Only way forward for India is to have heavy armed forces (Army, Air forces everywhere in Afghanistan and Navy at Chahbahar) in Aghanistan !!! That will fix once and for all in Bhartiya Jambudweep aka Indian Subcontinent!!!


No No, just enough $

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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Postby ramana » 05 Sep 2019 21:39

Peregrine wrote:X Posted on the Terroristan Thread

UAE had told Pakistan IHK not Muslim Ummah issue
ISLAMABAD: UAE Minister for Foreign Affairs and International Cooperation Sheikh Abdullah Bin Zayed Bin Sultan Al Nahyan had said that Pakistan and India should not make the Indian Held Kashmir (IHK) an issue of the Muslim Ummah as it was a dispute between the two countries.
...
Cheers Image


M.K. Dhar in his biography calls Pakistan a geopolitical problem with religious tinge. Its not a Hindu-Muslim problem.

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J&K Union Territory-2019

Postby Peregrine » 05 Sep 2019 22:24

Kashi wrote:
Just watch out for Mani Shankar Aiyyar :wink:
chetak wrote:this creep is actually paki born.

They must have circumcised his brain.

per wiki

Born 10 April 1941 (age 78)
Lahore, Punjab, British India
(now Punjab, Pakistan)
chetak Ji :
I believe the Late Lala Lajpat Rai made MSA'S Father - a Chartered Accountant - the Chairman of Laxmi Insurance Company in Lahore.

Cheers Image
Last edited by Peregrine on 05 Sep 2019 23:41, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Postby chetak » 05 Sep 2019 22:35

Peregrine wrote:
Kashi wrote:
Just watch out for Mani Shankar Aiyyar :wink:
chetak wrote:this creep is actually paki born.

They must have circumcised his brain.

per wiki

chetak Ji :
I believe the Late Lala Lajpat Rai made MSA'S Father - a Chartered Accountant - the Chairman of Laxmi Insurance Company in Lahore.

Cheers Image


Yes Saar and the malignant lahori genes are still prominently visible

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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Postby SBajwa » 05 Sep 2019 22:54

pankajs wrote:
Cain Marko wrote:Increasingly one feels that this is the way. Seems a safer bet than taking a defensive posture and fighting the war closer to home.

Chabahar is in Iran.

India will not deploy in Afghanistan any substantial military. The logistics doesn't support any such deployment either via Chabhar or via Gilgit-Baltisthan.

All routes to Afghanistan run through Islamabad and If needed we will have to fight it through bakistan.


We should not compare Indian armed forces logistics with USA. Indian armed forces do not need toilet papers, ham burgers, expensive liquor, very heavy fire power (doctrine of one bullet one enemy), etc. Indian armed forces do not fight to win one theater and then leave like US armed forces do. Indian armed forces are liked and loved by people around the world case in point is India's UN peace keeping forces all over the world. So!! even 1-2 division will be more than sufficient.

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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Postby Varoon Shekhar » 05 Sep 2019 23:02

pankajs wrote:
Cain Marko wrote:
Swamy, for all his brilliance, cannot be trusted. For him everything is about himself plus he is not a team player. On top of that he is a loose cannon. Hence the powers that be in have kept him at arms length.
He has my respect for his single handed fight against the Gandhis but that is about it.


He's brilliant, but way too individualistic. Also, on China, he tends to give a more or less clean chit to the Chinese for the 1962 war, and blame Nehru's bungling much more. We can and should criticise Nehru for many things, but not for actually starting the Sino-Indian war. That was essentially caused by China's invasion, occupation and repression of Tibet. Swamy doesn't have much to say on that.

But overall, a good, colourful, astute, ascerbic and brilliant person to have around.

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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Postby Suraj » 05 Sep 2019 23:34

I have a few questions about the socio-political milieu of former J&K state for those who are familiar. Answers with reference material would be particularly helpful:

* What were/are the working languages of the local population of Jammu region ?
* What were/are the working languages of the local population of Kashmir Valley region ? If there's a breakdown by ethnic or religious groups, what was that ?
* What were/are the working languages of the local population of Ladakh region ?
* What language(s) were the business of the erstwhile legislature of the former state of J&K conducted in ?
* What is the record of the state of J&K at promoting the Kashmiri language ?
* To what extent is Kashmiri written in Devanagari and Perso-Arabic respectively ? What is the history behind the use of its scripts ? Did the use of one script over the other change, and if so, when ?
* What is the degree of familiarity and patronage of the native language by the two long term ruling families of erstwhile J&K state ?

What I'm trying to understand here is, what is this 'Kashmiriyat' - and to what extent has it actually been preserved in 70+ years of semi-autonomous status, as opposed to being simply moulded into what suits separatist goals ?

It strikes me that it could be whatever they claim it is or should be, and no one else had any business to say otherwise. That's no longer the case now, and it's a good moment to take stock of the situation, but with input from those who are familiar.

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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Postby ramana » 06 Sep 2019 00:38

Kashmir was conquered by Islamists around 1340.
Around 1570 Akbar conquered Kashmir and made it a subah. No more Sultans.
Around 1820 Maharaja Ranjit Singh conquered Kashmir and ended Muslim rule. No more Sultans or Maliks.
He appointed a series of governors.
Some of these governors were for long periods and others short periods.
The long period governors were liked by the Kashmiris as they let them do their own thing.
And the short period governors were disliked because they governed.
Soon after the Anglo-Sikh wars Raja Gulab Singh of Jammu purchased Kashmir and setup his rule.
BTW his brothers were the ministers in Ranjit Singh kingdom.
Now begins Kashmiriyat.
So the people of the valley started their own solidarity or coming together to resist Dogra rule claiming they are unusual society etc and syncretic etc. And need to preserve their unique culture etc by excluding the others .
This included keeping out their daughters if they married outsiders and included others if their sons married.
(Leads to anomaly where Omar Abdullah born in London of a English woman is a Kashmiri! And his sister Sara Pilot disowned because she married Sachin Pilot from Rajasthan! No equality before law)

This went on till they forced Hari Singh to pass exclusion laws on property etc in the 1930s.
After Independence, Art 370 and the appendage 35A allowed them to retain all the old Kashmiriyat which is disguised xenophobia while getting all the funds and benefits from GOI in Delhi.

All this was hunky dory till 1988 when the FSU started collapse and Pakistan decided to fan jihad which worked in Afghanistan in defeating the Soviet Union.
Rest you all know.

In short Kashmiriyat is a special form of xenophobia towards rest of India fostered and nurtured by Chacha Kaminaji.

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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Postby Trikaal » 06 Sep 2019 00:47

Suraj wrote:I have a few questions about the socio-political milieu of former J&K state for those who are familiar. Answers with reference material would be particularly helpful:

* What were/are the working languages of the local population of Jammu region ?
* What were/are the working languages of the local population of Kashmir Valley region ? If there's a breakdown by ethnic or religious groups, what was that ?
* What were/are the working languages of the local population of Ladakh region ?
* What language(s) were the business of the erstwhile legislature of the former state of J&K conducted in ?
* What is the record of the state of J&K at promoting the Kashmiri language ?
* To what extent is Kashmiri written in Devanagari and Perso-Arabic respectively ? What is the history behind the use of its scripts ? Did the use of one script over the other change, and if so, when ?
* What is the degree of familiarity and patronage of the native language by the two long term ruling families of erstwhile J&K state ?

What I'm trying to understand here is, what is this 'Kashmiriyat' - and to what extent has it actually been preserved in 70+ years of semi-autonomous status, as opposed to being simply moulded into what suits separatist goals ?

It strikes me that it could be whatever they claim it is or should be, and no one else had any business to say otherwise. That's no longer the case now, and it's a good moment to take stock of the situation, but with input from those who are familiar.


The working/official language in both Jammu and Kashmir regions has been Urdu. The local spoken language of Kashmir region is Koshur, however, afaik it is not practiced in the written form. At least I have never encountered written Koshur in daily life. There might be historical manuscripts,etc. For the Jammu region, the preferred local languages are Dogri and Hindi.

Kashmiriyat refers to the culture and social fabric of Kashmir. It used to mean something at one point of time (brotherhood and community bonds beyond religion), according to my parents, however it has been trampled and crushed beyond recognition by separatists and islamic terrorists. One hopes that it might get restored one day, once the scourge of terrorism is eliminated.

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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Postby pankajs » 06 Sep 2019 00:48

SBajwa wrote:
pankajs wrote:Chabahar is in Iran.

India will not deploy in Afghanistan any substantial military. The logistics doesn't support any such deployment either via Chabhar or via Gilgit-Baltisthan.

All routes to Afghanistan run through Islamabad and If needed we will have to fight it through bakistan.


We should not compare Indian armed forces logistics with USA. Indian armed forces do not need toilet papers, ham burgers, expensive liquor, very heavy fire power (doctrine of one bullet one enemy), etc. Indian armed forces do not fight to win one theater and then leave like US armed forces do. Indian armed forces are liked and loved by people around the world case in point is India's UN peace keeping forces all over the world. So!! even 1-2 division will be more than sufficient.

1. Talking of warm welcome people forget IPKF experience so easily.
2. Taliban & ISIS backed by LeT, JuD & TSPA will defeated by 1-2 division of IA.
3. IA will be supplied via Chabhar via Mumbai while the Taliban & ISIS will be supplied from across the border. Maintaining Indian rations for such a force itself across the route will itself be a challenge.
4. IA will be dependent on the goodwill of Iran just like American is at the hands of Bakistan.
5. How easy it is to talk of "doctrine of one bullet one enemy". Does it mean that IA will need only 50K bullets if there are only 50K bunnies?

War is a serious business and war without a direct and assured logistics chain that much more complex. Folks think of war like tabletop exercise where roti/chawal/dal (poor mans diet as compared to the standard American ration) for 1-2 division people will reach as easily as moving a chess piece on a board.

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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Postby Trikaal » 06 Sep 2019 00:53

pankajs wrote:
SBajwa wrote:
We should not compare Indian armed forces logistics with USA. Indian armed forces do not need toilet papers, ham burgers, expensive liquor, very heavy fire power (doctrine of one bullet one enemy), etc. Indian armed forces do not fight to win one theater and then leave like US armed forces do. Indian armed forces are liked and loved by people around the world case in point is India's UN peace keeping forces all over the world. So!! even 1-2 division will be more than sufficient.

1. Talking of warm welcome people forget IPKF experience so easily.
2. Taliban & ISIS backed by LeT, JuD & TSPA will defeated by 1-2 division of IA.
3. IA will be supplied via Chabhar via Mumbai while the Taliban & ISIS will be supplied from across the border. Maintaining Indian rations for such a force itself across the route will itself be a challenge.
4. IA will be dependent on the goodwill of Iran just like American is at the hands of Bakistan.
5. How easy it is to talk of "doctrine of one bullet one enemy". Does it mean that IA will need only 50K bullets if there are only 50K bunnies?

War is a serious business and war without a direct and assured logistics chain that much more complex. Folks think of war like tabletop exercise where roti/chawal/dal (poor mans diet as compared to the standard American ration) for 1-2 division people will reach as easily as moving a chess piece on a board.


What even would be the strategic objectives of deploying in Afghanistan, that too alone? If US was staying, one could argue for it to enable more covert operations or to atleast secure mining of mineral resources. However, India is doing neither so what's the point? If it is to harass Pakistan then we can do that much more easily without deploying boots on ground.

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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Postby Suraj » 06 Sep 2019 01:46

Trikaal wrote:The working/official language in both Jammu and Kashmir regions has been Urdu. The local spoken language of Kashmir region is Koshur, however, afaik it is not practiced in the written form. At least I have never encountered written Koshur in daily life. There might be historical manuscripts,etc. For the Jammu region, the preferred local languages are Dogri and Hindi.

Thank you for your local input. So you're saying the various state governments since the first under Sheikh Abdullah have always used Urdu for business - never Kashmiri ? Does that family even speak Koshur, or are they like Sonia mispronouncing 'Hindi speeches' written in latin alphabet ?
Trikaal wrote:Kashmiriyat refers to the culture and social fabric of Kashmir. It used to mean something at one point of time (brotherhood and community bonds beyond religion), according to my parents, however it has been trampled and crushed beyond recognition by separatists and islamic terrorists. One hopes that it might get restored one day, once the scourge of terrorism is eliminated.

Every place in India has that sort of local-iyat. The question is, what is Kashmiriyat beyond the vague notion of brotherhood ? It doesn't appear that the original script of the local language is even used except in KP ceremonial instances. The state government uses a foreign language with historical political baggage. Is there such a thing as a poet laureate or a compendium of literature in Koshur, famous authors or writers ?

As far as I can tell, there's nothing. The literary traditions of the region are carried on by an exiled group of refugees, while the so called locals have no legitimacy beyond what they've accorded themselves by force. It needs to be widely known that 'Kashmiriyat' is a hollow shell, and that everything of value to it from a social and cultural is preserved not within the Valley but elsewhere, and they must all be returned from outside, and controlled by its legitimate guardians, not the patharphenk-iyat bunch who ruled.
ramana wrote:In short Kashmiriyat is a special form of xenophobia towards rest of India fostered and nurtured by Chacha Kaminaji.

ramana: yes you understand the point I'm trying to make indirectly by soliciting input on this. I'm trying to dismantle the alleged basis for solidarity that the BIF are making with the valley 'splittists' - that they are guardians of a unique culture that's been wrested from them by the hordes rushing in from the plains, and that they're being brutalized. They're nothing of the sort - they've no record of safeguarding anything other than their own power.

Even the Govt of Maharashtra, who are buying land in Kashmir Valley for resorts, will probably do a vastly superior job of showcasing the local landscape and culture than 70 years of bumbling misrule in the state will.

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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Postby A_Gupta » 06 Sep 2019 01:50


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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Postby Jay » 06 Sep 2019 01:59

Trikaal wrote:
What even would be the strategic objectives of deploying in Afghanistan, that too alone? If US was staying, one could argue for it to enable more covert operations or to atleast secure mining of mineral resources. However, India is doing neither so what's the point? If it is to harass Pakistan then we can do that much more easily without deploying boots on ground.


Exactly. We will be in Afghanistan only for Pakis sake and I do not see us being there for any other reason. It will be much more practical for us to tackle pakis by other ways without desi boots on the ground in AFG and in the process lose our hard earned but minimal influence in AFG while also getting tangled with Iran/Pakis/ISIS/Taliban at the same time. No thank you!

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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Postby banrjeer » 06 Sep 2019 02:04

pankajs wrote:
Cain Marko wrote:Increasingly one feels that this is the way. Seems a safer bet than taking a defensive posture and fighting the war closer to home.

Chabahar is in Iran.

India will not deploy in Afghanistan any substantial military. The logistics doesn't support any such deployment either via Chabhar or via Gilgit-Baltisthan.

All routes to Afghanistan run through Islamabad and If needed we will have to fight it through bakistan.


Somewhat idealistic:
If large numbers of "bad taleban" are recruited by the Pukis and willingly come to the LOC then the war for Afghanistan can be fought on the LOC without deploying any forces outside India. The good ones who want to regain Pashtun lands beyond the Durand line will wisely stay back... and thus Afghanistan will be cleansed and US will withdraw and Pakistan will unravel like magic etc..

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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Postby SBajwa » 06 Sep 2019 02:20

Jay wrote:
Trikaal wrote:
What even would be the strategic objectives of deploying in Afghanistan, that too alone? If US was staying, one could argue for it to enable more covert operations or to atleast secure mining of mineral resources. However, India is doing neither so what's the point? If it is to harass Pakistan then we can do that much more easily without deploying boots on ground.


Exactly. We will be in Afghanistan only for Pakis sake and I do not see us being there for any other reason. It will be much more practical for us to tackle pakis by other ways without desi boots on the ground in AFG and in the process lose our hard earned but minimal influence in AFG while also getting tangled with Iran/Pakis/ISIS/Taliban at the same time. No thank you!


Then fully expect that Trump will leave Afghanistan with Pakistan taking over Afghanistan and starting again the war with India., having gained their "Strategic Depth".

This same mistake of being defensive has been committed from last 2000+ years! when will we learn and adapt?

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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Postby Cain Marko » 06 Sep 2019 02:52

SBajwa wrote:
Jay wrote:
Exactly. We will be in Afghanistan only for Pakis sake and I do not see us being there for any other reason. It will be much more practical for us to tackle pakis by other ways without desi boots on the ground in AFG and in the process lose our hard earned but minimal influence in AFG while also getting tangled with Iran/Pakis/ISIS/Taliban at the same time. No thank you!


Then fully expect that Trump will leave Afghanistan with Pakistan taking over Afghanistan and starting again the war with India., having gained their "Strategic Depth".

This same mistake of being defensive has been committed from last 2000+ years! when will we learn and adapt?

Ultimately folks have to make up their mind. Bhai chahtey Kya ho?

Is Akhand Bharat and global power center mission just talk or something more?

If yes, how do you plan to achieve it?
A. Screw Afghanistan deployment and do Aarpaar ladhai when time is right. If it ever is. Or
B. Screw Afghanistan deployment and do Dishum dishum..Balakote type scenario. They hit one and India hits them back etc. Ad nauseam. Or
C. Get in Afghanistan, take the fight away from home, squeeze Tsp, encourage, bla and pakhtuns forces?

Note that not engaging in Afghanistan will mean that tsp will consolidate it's position and therefore be in a better position to engage India with jehadi groups of all sorts. It will also mean a deeper and more meaningful partnership with the US. It will also mean a strategic footprint that extends to CA and ME. this will naturally mean a more robust military..

Yes it will be a strain, physically and financially. But at least the latter can be mitigated. Deals could be struck where a good part of the cost is taken up be allies. The US, AFG, Iran, NATO etc... Military equipment should be had at strategic prices. India acts as a bulwark against terror for the whole world. Against cheeni expansion in the oceans and elsewhere. And thereby establishes itself as the go-to power for many of the strategic routes that emanate from the Afghani region.

Just some thoughts....
Last edited by Cain Marko on 06 Sep 2019 03:22, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Postby UlanBatori » 06 Sep 2019 02:58

pankajs wrote:India will not deploy in Afghanistan any substantial military. The logistics doesn't support any such deployment either via Chabhar or via Gilgit-Baltisthan.All routes to Afghanistan run through Islamabad and If needed we will have to fight it through bakistan.


Correction. A war-phooting road project would open the existing road north from Chabahar to the border crossing into Afghanistan (Helmand?) and another project inside Afghanistan will open that road all the way across to Kandahar. Kandahar-Kabul and northward is all internal Afghanistan roads.

UBCN recommendation. Build these roads to 40mph average speed. Spend the money. Swing a deal to bring iranian Revolutionary Guard to protect the region south of the east-west road towards the border with Balochistan. Station IAF in Iran and inside Afghanistan to provide air cover and detect and eliminate terrorists. Occasional Iranian forays south to liberate B'stan possible

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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Postby Cain Marko » 06 Sep 2019 03:31

Can't talks be reopened and a corridor to Afghanistan via GB be secured via some US pressure? Trump will come out smelling like a rose, tsp will pretend to have succeeded in bringing international pressure on yindoos, and India will get a route to Afghanistan and Central Asia. Kashmir will see peace because it will no longer remain a hot zone. India can securely deploy to Afghanistan.

Net loser will be China but who cares. Pakistanis are experts at spinning losses as victories to their awaam so I can't see why they'd complain if they got a small economic bailout in exchange.

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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Postby Trikaal » 06 Sep 2019 04:16

Cain Marko wrote:Ultimately folks have to make up their mind. Bhai chahtey Kya ho?

Is Akhand Bharat and global power center mission just talk or something more?

If yes, how do you plan to achieve it?
A. Screw Afghanistan deployment and do Aarpaar ladhai when time is right. If it ever is. Or
B. Screw Afghanistan deployment and do Dishum dishum..Balakote type scenario. They hit one and India hits them back etc. Ad nauseam. Or
C. Get in Afghanistan, take the fight away from home, squeeze Tsp, encourage, bla and pakhtuns forces?

Note that not engaging in Afghanistan will mean that tsp will consolidate it's position and therefore be in a better position to engage India with jehadi groups of all sorts. It will also mean a deeper and more meaningful partnership with the US. It will also mean a strategic footprint that extends to CA and ME. this will naturally mean a more robust military..

Yes it will be a strain, physically and financially. But at least the latter can be mitigated. Deals could be struck where a good part of the cost is taken up be allies. The US, AFG, Iran, NATO etc... Military equipment should be had at strategic prices. India acts as a bulwark against terror for the whole world. Against cheeni expansion in the oceans and elsewhere. And thereby establishes itself as the go-to power for many of the strategic routes that emanate from the Afghani region.

Just some thoughts....


Again I must ask, do do what and how?

When US and Soviet Union, the 2 superpowers with the biggest MICs and a global combat experience failed in Afghanistan, what makes u think that we, a country that has almost never in its entire history operated beyond it's borders, will succeed? And that too when our supply lines would be at the mercy of our staunchest enemy? And even if we manage to get inside Afghanistan, what makes u think we can stop Pakistan from gaining 'Strategic Depth'? Even with the presence of NATO, bombing the s**t out of Afghais and Pakis, did Pakis never let go of their Strategic Assets in Afghanistan.

And COST? What makes you think US will foot the bill of Indian deployment in Afghanistan? Did they ever offer? And do u seriously think a person like Trump, who is perfectly willing to run roughshod over strategic partnerships cultivated carefully over decades just to sell some luxury bikes, will pay billions of dollars to u to poke Pakistan in the back?

I am sorry, but in the current scenario, deploying in Afghanistan makes no sense whatsoever. We are much better off supporting pro-India and anti-Pak afghanis to cause mayhem in Pak and at the same time, use international forums to ensure Taliban doesn't overwhelm Pro-Indian afghanis after US withdrawal.

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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Postby fanne » 06 Sep 2019 04:18

bad bad idea to go to afg

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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Postby banrjeer » 06 Sep 2019 04:22

UlanBatori wrote:
pankajs wrote:India will not deploy in Afghanistan any substantial military. The logistics doesn't support any such deployment either via Chabhar or via Gilgit-Baltisthan.All routes to Afghanistan run through Islamabad and If needed we will have to fight it through bakistan.


Correction. A war-phooting road project would open the existing road north from Chabahar to the border crossing into Afghanistan (Helmand?) and another project inside Afghanistan will open that road all the way across to Kandahar. Kandahar-Kabul and northward is all internal Afghanistan roads.

UBCN recommendation. Build these roads to 40mph average speed. Spend the money. Swing a deal to bring iranian Revolutionary Guard to protect the region south of the east-west road towards the border with Balochistan. Station IAF in Iran and inside Afghanistan to provide air cover and detect and eliminate terrorists. Occasional Iranian forays south to liberate B'stan possible


This relies too much on Iranians. They are a spent force lack money and are obsessed with a stupid game of oneupmanship with Israel and Sunni combine. Also can you trust them. They might have colluded/allowed in the capture of Kulbhushan.

The cheapest option is to create "incremental" activities on the western front and coordinate with the Baloch. Pukes cannot engage on the eastern front and manage their strategic depth. They will be forced to capitalize on their "strategic depth". It's a slower approach but will eventually free Afghanistan from the clutches of the Pakjabis.

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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Postby Trikaal » 06 Sep 2019 04:34

Suraj wrote:Thank you for your local input. So you're saying the various state governments since the first under Sheikh Abdullah have always used Urdu for business - never Kashmiri ? Does that family even speak Koshur, or are they like Sonia mispronouncing 'Hindi speeches' written in latin alphabet ?


Every place in India has that sort of local-iyat. The question is, what is Kashmiriyat beyond the vague notion of brotherhood ? It doesn't appear that the original script of the local language is even used except in KP ceremonial instances. The state government uses a foreign language with historical political baggage. Is there such a thing as a poet laureate or a compendium of literature in Koshur, famous authors or writers ?

As far as I can tell, there's nothing. The literary traditions of the region are carried on by an exiled group of refugees, while the so called locals have no legitimacy beyond what they've accorded themselves by force. It needs to be widely known that 'Kashmiriyat' is a hollow shell, and that everything of value to it from a social and cultural is preserved not within the Valley but elsewhere, and they must all be returned from outside, and controlled by its legitimate guardians, not the patharphenk-iyat bunch who ruled.


Written and official work has always been conducted in Urdu. As for their dialect, it's authentic. There is a slight difference in dialect of KPs and KMs, with Sanskrit words dominating KP's Koshur. But the differences are minor.

Agree with u regarding local-iyat. That's what it is, or was. Now it's just a farce.

Muslims have ruled the state for a significant part of its History which is why Persian and Urdu have been state languages. Koshur isn't really written at all. It is only an oral language, atleast today. I am not aware of any literary written works in Koshur, though there are many folk lores and songs that are passed down orally. Whatever is written is in Sanskrit or Urdu afaik.

Radicalization has mostly destroyed what used to be a very distinctive regional identity. Exodus of KPs completely destroyed the social fabric of the place. Now it's just another cesspool of poverty, brainwashing and terrorism. A hard reset is needed, and removal of Art 370 is just the first step in that direction.

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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Postby CRamS » 06 Sep 2019 07:48

A_GuptaJi, I believe it is you, and pardon me if not, but why would a $ sepoy like Dhume block someone like you? I mean you are not like me who can be in your face and abrasive, and so I not ashamed to say that the creep banned me also a while back when I challenged him. I read his disgusting 'play it safe' narrative against India in the Atlantic. It was in response to that, that Minhaz Merchant coined the phrase $ sepoy.

That said, as India continues to take a consummate battering in the white media through half truths, exaggerations, and out of context propaganda reporting (which BTW, even Burka Bibi on her twitter line laments), I wonder how white media editorial board chose whom to publish from SDRE countries like India. I have yet to come across a single article in the white media putting J&K move in its context and explaining India's PoV. Why is that?I am sure guys like Brahma Chellaney have some credibility among white editorial boards despite his pro-India views unlike the 'play it safe' $ sepoys? Or maybe Anupam Kher. Or Rahul Pandita who as much a Kashmir as the vegetarian terrorist for whom loads of tears are shed? Is it the case the pro-India guys feel its not worth their time.

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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Postby manjgu » 06 Sep 2019 07:49

sahi bol rahe hain trikaal ji.

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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Postby Cain Marko » 06 Sep 2019 08:12

Trikaal wrote:
Cain Marko wrote:Ultimately folks have to make up their mind. Bhai chahtey Kya ho?

Is Akhand Bharat and global power center mission just talk or something more?

If yes, how do you plan to achieve it?
A. Screw Afghanistan deployment and do Aarpaar ladhai when time is right. If it ever is. Or
B. Screw Afghanistan deployment and do Dishum dishum..Balakote type scenario. They hit one and India hits them back etc. Ad nauseam. Or
C. Get in Afghanistan, take the fight away from home, squeeze Tsp, encourage, bla and pakhtuns forces?

Note that not engaging in Afghanistan will mean that tsp will consolidate it's position and therefore be in a better position to engage India with jehadi groups of all sorts. It will also mean a deeper and more meaningful partnership with the US. It will also mean a strategic footprint that extends to CA and ME. this will naturally mean a more robust military..

Yes it will be a strain, physically and financially. But at least the latter can be mitigated. Deals could be struck where a good part of the cost is taken up be allies. The US, AFG, Iran, NATO etc... Military equipment should be had at strategic prices. India acts as a bulwark against terror for the whole world. Against cheeni expansion in the oceans and elsewhere. And thereby establishes itself as the go-to power for many of the strategic routes that emanate from the Afghani region.

Just some thoughts....


Again I must ask, do do what and how?

When US and Soviet Union, the 2 superpowers with the biggest MICs and a global combat experience failed in Afghanistan, what makes u think that we, a country that has almost never in its entire history operated beyond it's borders, will succeed? And that too when our supply lines would be at the mercy of our staunchest enemy? And even if we manage to get inside Afghanistan, what makes u think we can stop Pakistan from gaining 'Strategic Depth'? Even with the presence of NATO, bombing the s**t out of Afghais and Pakis, did Pakis never let go of their Strategic Assets in Afghanistan.


Read my posts again. I'm not saying that India should jump into this without first securing supply routes. Any involvement should be conditional upon secure supply routes through GB and as a backup, through Iran. Involving the Iranians is an additional measure to make sure that they have stands in the game.

And COST? What makes you think US will foot the bill of Indian deployment in Afghanistan? Did they ever offer? And do u seriously think a person like Trump, who is perfectly willing to run roughshod over strategic partnerships cultivated carefully over decades just to sell some luxury bikes, will pay billions of dollars to u to poke Pakistan in the back?

Not the entire cost and not just the US. Details will have to be worked out to mutual advantage. Trump and the US get a chance to get out of a 20 year old festering boondoggle, which not only saves lives and $s and image, but also provides them and all stakeholders a burdenfree Afghanistan area that is no longer a security threat. I don't see why a coalition of the willing won't back this, especially if the Afghans initiate it.
I am sorry, but in the current scenario, deploying in Afghanistan makes no sense whatsoever. We are much better off supporting pro-India and anti-Pak afghanis to cause mayhem in Pak and at the same time, use international forums to ensure Taliban doesn't overwhelm Pro-Indian afghanis after US withdrawal.

I don't entirely disagree but am trying gauge how serious folks are about GOIs talk of AB, PoK and what not. Btw, India tried that pro Afghan anti Pak tactic in the 90s, and we all know what happened thereafter...

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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Postby Kashi » 06 Sep 2019 08:40

Cain Marko wrote:Read my posts again. I'm not saying that India should jump into this without first securing supply routes.


And therein lies the rub. How do you go about "securing supply routes"?

1. We do not have PoK under our control, so a route is not possible.
2. A route through Peshawar is out of question, for obvious reasons.
3. Chabahar route, the least unlikely option, is completely dependent on the mercy of Iranians.

Other options
1. Air corridor- dependent on Bakistan and always vulnerable to the closure of airspace. Alternatively, fly around Bakistan, but then it would be dependent on Iran. Flying over Chinese airspace too is not a very attractive option..
2. Via Russia and Central Asian republics, that was used by NATO as their Northern Distribution Network. Once again, subject to whims and fancies of Russia and CARs. Most importantly, how to get the supplies to those places in the first place?

So once again, how do we secure supply lines into Afghanistan?

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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Postby Deans » 06 Sep 2019 09:39

Re: Afghanistan. I had written a paper on the subject and done business there in the past. In brief:

A military deployment is undesirable for the reasons other posters have mentioned. If it has to be be done, it should be under the following circumstances:
- Unhindered access to Chabahar, the railway upto Afghanistan and the road network upto the place of deployment (which means it has to pass through territory with limited Pashtun presence (e.g. the provinces bordering Iran & Baluchistan). It needs the US & Iran to agree.
- Deploy on the invitation of the Afghan govt and the UN,
- Make it a training mission with the additional responsibility of safeguarding Indian projects. Use the training mission as cover to train the Baluchistan resistance for actions inside Pak. Apart from trainers, have just 1 Para SF unit present.
- Get the IAF to maintain / train the Afghan air force in return for basing rights.A small IAF presence in one of the Afghan AF bases (ostensibly to train the Afghan AF) of even 6 Mig-21's, will require a complete reorientation of Pakistan's air defence network.

Afghanistan can be used to screw Pak, in the following ways.
- Afghan warlords can dump consumer products sourced from India (where Pak imposes heavy duties) into Pak. e.g. substandard medicine, electronics (where an Indian owned supply chain will make for more efficient transport etc). The profit from that trade is a key source of finance for Afghan war lords (apart from heroin). A 1$ billion loss in customs revenue to Pak is enough to topple their economy.
- Get Afghanistan to negotiate a water sharing deal for rivers originating in Afghanistan (currently Pak makes free use of it), India needs to complete construction of dams in Afghanistan which will give Afg water security at the cost of Pak. There's ample international funding available for it.
- Afghan TV and Radio can be revived by Doordarshan/AIR, with Pashto services. Indian controlled news content backed up by Bollywood would be far more popular than the current entertainment options. Afghans can be trained in media in JNU.
- Indian military bases (actually an Afghan army base with Indian trainers) can be the means to supply a large quantity of arms to the Baluchi resistance with no direct Indian involvement. IA can't be responsible if `Afghan' trainees disappear with their weapons after training, as they have done for the last 2 decades when the Americans trained them.
- Afghanistan threatens to close its airspace to Pak, whenever Pak threatens to do the same to us.

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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Postby Cain Marko » 06 Sep 2019 10:27

Kashi wrote:
Cain Marko wrote:Read my posts again. I'm not saying that India should jump into this without first securing supply routes.


And therein lies the rub. How do you go about "securing supply routes"?

1. We do not have PoK under our control, so a route is not possible.
2. A route through Peshawar is out of question, for obvious reasons.
3. Chabahar route, the least unlikely option, is completely dependent on the mercy of Iranians.

Other options
1. Air corridor- dependent on Bakistan and always vulnerable to the closure of airspace. Alternatively, fly around Bakistan, but then it would be dependent on Iran. Flying over Chinese airspace too is not a very attractive option..
2. Via Russia and Central Asian republics, that was used by NATO as their Northern Distribution Network. Once again, subject to whims and fancies of Russia and CARs. Most importantly, how to get the supplies to those places in the first place?

So once again, how do we secure supply lines into Afghanistan?

TBH, this is the million dollar question. the most likely way seems via Iran/Chabahar - iranian mercy can be mitigated through some trade deals (the US will have to look the other way). The second option is to secure a corridor through GB with US nod (could be mediation or whatever), ideally without firing a bullet. Using existing roadways - Leh, Kargil, Skardu, Karambad etc. Some more paved roads might have to be built.

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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Postby Cain Marko » 06 Sep 2019 10:29

Deans wrote:Re: Afghanistan. I had written a paper on the subject and done business there in the past. In brief:

A military deployment is undesirable for the reasons other posters have mentioned. If it has to be be done, it should be under the following circumstances:
- Unhindered access to Chabahar, the railway upto Afghanistan and the road network upto the place of deployment (which means it has to pass through territory with limited Pashtun presence (e.g. the provinces bordering Iran & Baluchistan). It needs the US & Iran to agree.
- Deploy on the invitation of the Afghan govt and the UN,
- Make it a training mission with the additional responsibility of safeguarding Indian projects. Use the training mission as cover to train the Baluchistan resistance for actions inside Pak. Apart from trainers, have just 1 Para SF unit present.
- Get the IAF to maintain / train the Afghan air force in return for basing rights.A small IAF presence in one of the Afghan AF bases (ostensibly to train the Afghan AF) of even 6 Mig-21's, will require a complete reorientation of Pakistan's air defence network.

Afghanistan can be used to screw Pak, in the following ways.
- Afghan warlords can dump consumer products sourced from India (where Pak imposes heavy duties) into Pak. e.g. substandard medicine, electronics (where an Indian owned supply chain will make for more efficient transport etc). The profit from that trade is a key source of finance for Afghan war lords (apart from heroin). A 1$ billion loss in customs revenue to Pak is enough to topple their economy.
- Get Afghanistan to negotiate a water sharing deal for rivers originating in Afghanistan (currently Pak makes free use of it), India needs to complete construction of dams in Afghanistan which will give Afg water security at the cost of Pak. There's ample international funding available for it.
- Afghan TV and Radio can be revived by Doordarshan/AIR, with Pashto services. Indian controlled news content backed up by Bollywood would be far more popular than the current entertainment options. Afghans can be trained in media in JNU.
- Indian military bases (actually an Afghan army base with Indian trainers) can be the means to supply a large quantity of arms to the Baluchi resistance with no direct Indian involvement. IA can't be responsible if `Afghan' trainees disappear with their weapons after training, as they have done for the last 2 decades when the Americans trained them.
- Afghanistan threatens to close its airspace to Pak, whenever Pak threatens to do the same to us.

Deansji, can you post a link to the paper if it is open access?

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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Postby williams » 06 Sep 2019 10:47

I am going by Su Swamy statement.

1. US deep state will not allow India to gain any major strategic advantage. They have been acting neutral in most areas of our concern and they have extracted good price for such neutrality. You are not going to get anything more from them.

2. Paki strategic depth theory is a dud especially when we have long-range fighters and worst-case scenario, we can develop air bases in Central Asia if the so-called strategic depth will give any advantage to the Pakis.

3. China is not going to lie down silently when we are running the show in AFG.

4. We still do not have the economic muscle to run a war in a foreign land for extended periods of time that too with imported weapons.

So I think Su Swamy is throwing a theory to irritate the Pakis further and apply some phycological pressure. Beyond that, no one is going to buy this theory.

As far as militarily grabbing PoK, we need to focus on economics, local production of major weapon systems and continue to help the Pakis to implode on their own. Maybe when Pakis implode economically and Chinese implode politically, we can try a swift operation to do it.

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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Postby Deans » 06 Sep 2019 11:02

Cain Marko wrote:
Deans wrote:Re: Afghanistan. I had written a paper on the subject and done business there in the past. In brief:

Deansji, can you post a link to the paper if it is open access?


Only a 2 page summary (dealing with Pak) is open source. I've been asked not to share the rest of it (50 odd pages). Suffice to say parts of it have been taken seriously by our national security establishment. The link is here.

https://swarajyamag.com/world/a-new-non-diplomatic-approach-for-pakistan

I used to do business back in the 90s with an Afghan, with links to one of the warlords (anti taliban) who would smuggle consumer products into Afghanistan. Got a good insight into how this works. Also visited Chabahar.

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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Postby nandakumar » 06 Sep 2019 11:23

Deans wrote:Re: Afghanistan. I had written a paper on the subject and done business there in the past. In brief:

A military deployment is undesirable for the reasons other posters have mentioned. If it has to be be done, it should be under the following circumstances:
- Unhindered access to Chabahar, the railway upto Afghanistan and the road network upto the place of deployment (which means it has to pass through territory with limited Pashtun presence (e.g. the provinces bordering Iran & Baluchistan). It needs the US & Iran to agree.
- Deploy on the invitation of the Afghan govt and the UN,
- Make it a training mission with the additional responsibility of safeguarding Indian projects. Use the training mission as cover to train the Baluchistan resistance for actions inside Pak. Apart from trainers, have just 1 Para SF unit present.
- Get the IAF to maintain / train the Afghan air force in return for basing rights.A small IAF presence in one of the Afghan AF bases (ostensibly to train the Afghan AF) of even 6 Mig-21's, will require a complete reorientation of Pakistan's air defence network.

Afghanistan can be used to screw Pak, in the following ways.
- Afghan warlords can dump consumer products sourced from India (where Pak imposes heavy duties) into Pak. e.g. substandard medicine, electronics (where an Indian owned supply chain will make for more efficient transport etc). The profit from that trade is a key source of finance for Afghan war lords (apart from heroin). A 1$ billion loss in customs revenue to Pak is enough to topple their economy.
- Get Afghanistan to negotiate a water sharing deal for rivers originating in Afghanistan (currently Pak makes free use of it), India needs to complete construction of dams in Afghanistan which will give Afg water security at the cost of Pak. There's ample international funding available for it.
- Afghan TV and Radio can be revived by Doordarshan/AIR, with Pashto services. Indian controlled news content backed up by Bollywood would be far more popular than the current entertainment options. Afghans can be trained in media in JNU.
- Indian military bases (actually an Afghan army base with Indian trainers) can be the means to supply a large quantity of arms to the Baluchi resistance with no direct Indian involvement. IA can't be responsible if `Afghan' trainees disappear with their weapons after training, as they have done for the last 2 decades when the Americans trained them.
- Afghanistan threatens to close its airspace to Pak, whenever Pak threatens to do the same to us.

When you say, "dump consumer goods from India", you mean encourage Afghan warlords to smuggle Indian goods into Pakistan? It seems to me the logistics may prove very challenging. While drugs are low volume high value, Indian consumer goods are not so.

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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Postby Atmavik » 06 Sep 2019 12:30

^^ this dumbing of consumer goods is already underway. from watching a few paki shows it looks like the most popular item are shampoo sachets. maybe for beards ?

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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Postby chetak » 06 Sep 2019 13:01

As brutal a take down of amnesty international as you will ever see and well deserved too.

watch video



@ARanganathan72, Author & Scientist slams the claims made by Amnesty International (@amnesty) through its reports) on @thenewshour with Navika Kumar.


https://twitter.com/TimesNow/status/1169648021904052225

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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Postby RKumar » 06 Sep 2019 13:17

India will not send military to Afg to fight the Taliban. At the end, Taliban has fair number of locals who has access and knowledge of the geography. Lets not repeat the Sri Lankan mistake. What Afg need, Afg army should capture all sorts of weapons and destroy those by burning, melting or exploding. All weapon must be strictly managed via police and Army - simply no more private own weapons.

It will take 2 years before you see the improvement but it is doable. Weapons are around for so long that they think it is part of their culture but if they want to save their children and future generations, they have to do it. Poison has to be taken out to heal the body.

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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Postby nits » 06 Sep 2019 13:28

pankajs wrote:
SBajwa wrote:
We should not compare Indian armed forces logistics with USA. Indian armed forces do not need toilet papers, ham burgers, expensive liquor, very heavy fire power (doctrine of one bullet one enemy), etc. Indian armed forces do not fight to win one theater and then leave like US armed forces do. Indian armed forces are liked and loved by people around the world case in point is India's UN peace keeping forces all over the world. So!! even 1-2 division will be more than sufficient.

1. Talking of warm welcome people forget IPKF experience so easily.
2. Taliban & ISIS backed by LeT, JuD & TSPA will defeated by 1-2 division of IA.
3. IA will be supplied via Chabhar via Mumbai while the Taliban & ISIS will be supplied from across the border. Maintaining Indian rations for such a force itself across the route will itself be a challenge.
4. IA will be dependent on the goodwill of Iran just like American is at the hands of Bakistan.
5. How easy it is to talk of "doctrine of one bullet one enemy". Does it mean that IA will need only 50K bullets if there are only 50K bunnies?

War is a serious business and war without a direct and assured logistics chain that much more complex. Folks think of war like tabletop exercise where roti/chawal/dal (poor mans diet as compared to the standard American ration) for 1-2 division people will reach as easily as moving a chess piece on a board.


We need to use Afghanistan Logistic problem to our benefit; currently US is dependent on Pak / Iran and so will be India if it decide to go there...what we are forgetting is POK (Wakhan Corrdor - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wakhan_Corridor) has border with Afganistan and if we get POK back all such logistic problem and dependecy on Pak / iran goes away...

We need to drum about it and get Us support that getting POK back is not just in India's interest but theirs too...

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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Postby venkat_r » 06 Sep 2019 13:52

Peregrine wrote:X Posted on the Terroristan Thread

UAE had told Pakistan IHK not Muslim Ummah issue
ISLAMABAD: UAE Minister for Foreign Affairs and International Cooperation Sheikh Abdullah Bin Zayed Bin Sultan Al Nahyan had said that Pakistan and India should not make the Indian Held Kashmir (IHK) an issue of the Muslim Ummah as it was a dispute between the two countries.
Geo News anchorperson of ‘Capital Talk’ on Wednesday said that some officials of the federal government informed that UAE minister for foreign affairs is visiting Pakistan apparently to express solidarity with Pakistan on the IHK issue but his interaction with Pakistani leadership previously suggested that he had conveyed that Kashmir issue should not be made an issue of the Muslim Ummah rather, according to him, it is a bilateral issue and should be resolved through talks between Pakistan and India.
Hamid Mir said that Pakistan leadership must convey to the world in general and the Muslim countries in particular that Nerendra Modi’s atrocities are not limited to the IHK only rather he wants to unleash reign of terror across India to forcibly convert the Muslims into Hindus. In this context, Kashmir issue is not a dispute between India and Pakistan but it is an issue of the whole Muslim world.
Cheers Image



This is very big news, as it has to be understood in its context and a very big slap to Pakistan, not sure if they can swallow it.

This statement comes from Islamabad, imagine the embarrassment for Pakistan trying to clutch to straws, when their friends UAE and Saudi ministers say this to their face in their own home !! Would be interesting to watch op-eds from newspapers in next few days.

Also interesting is the strength of Indian diplomacy which made this possible, and sign of how differently and comprehensively this has been tackled than say when Kargil or Pokran happened when the focus was more on Engaging the US and the West. Warms a Jingo heart that better days are ahead.


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