J&K Union Territory-2019

The Strategic Issues & International Relations Forum is a venue to discuss issues pertaining to India's security environment, her strategic outlook on global affairs and as well as the effect of international relations in the Indian Subcontinent. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
Katare
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2567
Joined: 02 Mar 2002 12:31

Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Postby Katare » 16 Sep 2019 10:19

ramana wrote:GB had a revolt by a British major whose Muslim troops killed the Jammu Kashmir troops and raided Paki flag.
Later that British guy was given many honors by TSP and UK.
and Nehru offered ceasefire when Indian Army was preparing to take Skardu.


My understanding is that it has come to stalemate, Kargil, Skardu and Drass were lost and than retaken by pulling a surprise. Pakistani forces well entrenched on the steep mountain slope presented the same impossible challenges then as they did in Musharrf’s Kargil war.

Pak forces were stunned to see one fine morning tanks appear at 10k ft heigh battlefields. IA dismantled turrets and shipped both sections in covered trucks that were moved only during night. Pak forces were not equipped with the anti tank munitions, so they were horrified when direct fire of tanks destroyed their unassailable bunkers.

Within days Pak for es were equipped for anti tank warfare and they started to move their own armor bringing back the stalemate. Game was open for either side to take initiative.

Indian political leadership finally accepted that without crossing the border in Punjab/Rajasthan and starting a full scale war things would not change. IA was paying a very heavy price to even retain its keep. It decided to take the ceasefire deal on table.

Vikas
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6292
Joined: 03 Dec 2005 02:40
Location: Where DST doesn't bother me
Contact:

Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Postby Vikas » 16 Sep 2019 13:14

JLN was no pacifist leader whatever other features his PMship may have. Atleast no one outside India believes him to be a Pacifist one. Heck even the apostle of Ahimsa was recruiting for Brits during the Great war.

In fact on Kashmir, going by his personal interest and giant ego on Kashmir, He wasn't the one who would have let go of any part of Kashmir unless there was no chance of taking back PoK without terrible repercussions. Given that India had no war machine in 1948, we don't know how much days worth of ammunition was available and add British perfidy, I think it was probably was most rational decision to accept ceasefire. Maybe there was a plan/hope to retake POK once situation settled down just like in the initial years, it was assumed that Pakistan experiment will fail and we will reunite.

Supratik
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6333
Joined: 09 Nov 2005 10:21
Location: USA

Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Postby Supratik » 16 Sep 2019 19:13

It is a fantastic story but I never read about it. Can you guys give some references. Most accounts I have read suggests the military leadership wanted to continue the war as they felt they had seized the momentum. It was Nehrus idea to call ceasefire and take it to the UN.

Kashi
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3610
Joined: 06 May 2011 13:53

Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Postby Kashi » 16 Sep 2019 19:15

Vikas wrote:Given that India had no war machine in 1948.


And the enemy did?

vsunder
BRFite
Posts: 843
Joined: 06 Sep 1999 11:31
Location: Ulan Bator, Mongolia

Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Postby vsunder » 16 Sep 2019 20:26

Supratik wrote:It is a fantastic story but I never read about it. Can you guys give some references. Most accounts I have read suggests the military leadership wanted to continue the war as they felt they had seized the momentum. It was Nehrus idea to call ceasefire and take it to the UN.


For military operations 1947-1948, a suggested book is Slender Was the Thread, by Lt- Gen L. P. "Bogey" Sen. If memory serves me right, he was airlifted to Srinagar Nov 5, 1947 and was there from the start. He was a Colonel, No. 2 in the DMI but was temporarily promoted to Brigadier and took over 161 Bde.

Sen continued there for almost two years, defending Srinagar, liberating Baramulla, Uri, even Haji Pir Pass and linking it up with Poonch.

He wrote his story in brilliant, graphic detail in the first real military memoir by an Indian soldier post-Independence. As with any general in those times, there are controversies and questions about his claims.

Controversy apart, however, this book is the first definitive account of those fateful days and months. Quite fittingly, and displaying a fine literary mind, Sen named his memoir, as the commander of the legendary 161 Brigade, ‘Slender Was The Thread: Kashmir Confrontation 1947-48’.

Communication with the valley and Kashmir was very poor those days. All weather road ran through Rawalpindi and Murrey( a good brewery used to be here) so cannot use it. (read accounts by Vivekananda, Yogananda, Swami Ramdas of travel to Kashmir on this road, the preferred route, even there was a railway for part of the distance) Fair weather road was Rajouri, Poonch, Uri and Haji Pir pass which was partially under the control of the Lashkaris. Banihal road was terrible. Not enough transport aircraft to maintain a tempo of a large scale operation that has to be basically supplied by an air bridge. Even today there are logistic issues by road for supplying J&K to sustain large offensive operations. Even in 1965 they came within 4 km of the Akhnur iron bridge and would have severed the valley. Determined stand by 20th Lancers with tin cans AMX light tanks prevented it. People say Haji Pir, ******** politicians etc gave it away. Yes they gave it to get back the land around Akhnur, other wise you have a new baseline and a dagger permanently at your throat from 4 km, shelling etc etc . Even Hasnain has pointed this out as to why Haji Pir was given away.
Last edited by vsunder on 16 Sep 2019 20:44, edited 1 time in total.

yensoy
BRFite
Posts: 1490
Joined: 29 May 2002 11:31
Location: USA

Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Postby yensoy » 16 Sep 2019 20:44

Kashi wrote:
Vikas wrote:Given that India had no war machine in 1948.

And the enemy did?


The war machine had the enemy. As the good Haqqani says "Pakistan is an army with a country". So yes.

tsarkar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2803
Joined: 08 May 2006 13:44
Location: mumbai

Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Postby tsarkar » 16 Sep 2019 20:45

Kashi wrote:
Vikas wrote:Given that India had no war machine in 1948.
And the enemy did?

Yes. After INA Trial and Indian Naval Mutiny, the British demobilized the "Indian" part of IA rapidly. The demobilized "Pakistani" part of IA, were put at the disposal of Muslim League funded by Muslim princely states and rich collaborators to 1. Destabilize the Govt of Khan Abdul Gaffar Khan's brother's govt in NWFP and mercilessly kill the Khuda-e-Khidmatgar partymen and 2. Invade Jammu, Kashmir & Ladakh. Pakistan was created by Muslim League that was created by the British as a buffer state to Afghanistan that they expected to fall to the Soviets similar to Turkmenistan and Kyrghizstan.

We had very few army units and princely state forces like Patiala were deployed at J&K.

Supratik wrote:It is a fantastic story but I never read about it. Can you guys give some references. Most accounts I have read suggests the military leadership wanted to continue the war as they felt they had seized the momentum. It was Nehrus idea to call ceasefire and take it to the UN.

Vikas wrote:JLN was no pacifist leader whatever other features his PMship may have.

JLN lost his pacifist credentials after Goa Liberation in 1961. He was vilified for fighting a European Nation. But before that he was pampered and brainwashed by the Brits

During the 1948 Kashmir Operations, when Indian Army was going full momentum to liberate the whole princely state, with the success of Operation Duck, Erase & Gulab, Mountbatten et al played to Nehru's ego as an International Statesman and brought in the UN. Ofcourse the Pakistanis give it a different spin and claim India was losing and went to UN and we did nothing all these years to counter the fake narrative.

tsarkar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2803
Joined: 08 May 2006 13:44
Location: mumbai

Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Postby tsarkar » 16 Sep 2019 20:51

vsunder wrote:Communication with the valley and Kashmir was very poor those days.

Disagree. We were bringing up additional Gurkha, Bihar, Grenadiers battalions, though all were badly hit by post WW2 demobilization. We successfully saved Leh, liberated Zoji La, Gurais, linked up with Poonch and the Indian Para Brigade under the command of the brilliant Brigadier Mohammed Usman was recapturing the lost territories.

The thread was slender but had the war lasted longer, we would have grown in strength and recovered Skardu, Mirpur and Muzzafarabad.

Sachin
Webmaster BR
Posts: 7648
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Undisclosed

Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Postby Sachin » 16 Sep 2019 21:05

I see a gloom in the main stream media. Looks like the Supreme Court orders did not give them much comfort.
SC finds death, terror, violence from 1990 ‘formidable reasons’ for J&K lockdown :lol:.
SC asks Centre to restore normalcy in Kashmir.

And the way things are going Kashmiri freeloaders would soon realise that their freeloading days are over.

Deans
BRFite
Posts: 971
Joined: 26 Aug 2004 19:13
Location: Moscow

Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Postby Deans » 16 Sep 2019 22:15

I think the problem with continuing the 1948 war, beyond the Jan 49 ceasefire, had more to do with economics and logistics than the Military situation - where the momentum was in our favour. (`Slender was the thread' is a good account of the fighting).

None of our generals in 1947 had enough exposure to logistics - Both brigade commanders (later Div commanders) Thimmaya and Sen, were Colonels in WW-2. Our logistic situation was poor. The train system had broken down due to the influx of refugees and riots in the Punjab. The airlift (using every available civil aircraft) was unsustainable. Gen. Carippa had apparently asked for 2 divisions for a summer offensive to retake all of Kashmir, but that would meant effectively doubling our strength in Kashmir, without the assured ability to supply them. If Pakistan had also raised more forces (India did not enjoy any significant numerical superiority) it was uncertain if we would win. Moreover, JLN (and possibly others in Govt) were unclear if we wanted to retake POK, since places like Mirpur and Poonch were considered very hostile to India, in the process defying the UN and impoverishing our already bankrupt country.
Last edited by Deans on 17 Sep 2019 09:57, edited 1 time in total.

Deans
BRFite
Posts: 971
Joined: 26 Aug 2004 19:13
Location: Moscow

Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Postby Deans » 16 Sep 2019 23:18

While I support the govt on Kashmir and couldn't care less about the `suffering' of the KM population in the current situation, I wonder if the continued denial of mobile services and the internet has outlived its usefulness - same applies to political detainees. My concern is that we will start losing the perception war internationally and some fence sitters in Kashmir, may become a lot more resentful, creating more militancy down the line. I understand that curfew /curbs on movement are now gone throughout the valley. My view is if the likes of Abdullahs and Mufti are released, they may actually prefer detention, given their current popularity. I think our security forces should be in a position to tackle the fallout of easing of mobile and internet restrictions. It will remove the only excuse the KMs have of not resuming a normal life.

Supratik
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6333
Joined: 09 Nov 2005 10:21
Location: USA

Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Postby Supratik » 16 Sep 2019 23:21

The same would be true for Pakistanis although you can say they had the first mover advantage specially in the formidable terrain of GB. But by all accounts among the many shortcomings of Nehru one was that he did not have a particularly militaristic or geo-political acumen which say Indira Gandhi had.

sudeepj
BRFite
Posts: 1698
Joined: 27 Nov 2008 11:25

Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Postby sudeepj » 16 Sep 2019 23:28

Aditya_V wrote:
sudeepj wrote:
Interesting read, and accurately relates why the existing polity in Kashmir valley had to be dumped. PDP was at times in an official alliance with Hizbul!

I think, the battlefield for this war in Kashmir is not the streets and mosques there, but in our minds. In their minds too. .... Or else we will need a deux ex machina.


Part of the battle is to is see the collapse of Pakistan and development of India. That will win the minds.


This actually happened in the wake of the 71 war. Things quietened down in the mini Pakistans within India for a while. But we made a mistake in not pressing the advantage. Next time (and there is almost certainly going to be a next time within a decade!) we need to press the advantage. The state must control the contents disseminated within mosques. Nastaleeq script must be gotten rid of and Urdu in devnagri (in other words, colloquial Hindi) must be the only language allowed. Personal laws must be gotten rid of. Finally, the minority-majority dynamic, where to be a minority gives one especial constitutional rights denied to the majority must change. Either offer the same rights to every one, or offer more rights to the majority.

rohitvats
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 7699
Joined: 08 Sep 2005 18:24
Location: Jatland

Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Postby rohitvats » 17 Sep 2019 00:53

In his book, Slender was the thread, Lt Gen 'Bogey' Sen hints that there was a larger game at play when it came to Indian Army taking back POK.

He mentions that whenever Indian field commanders asked for troops or resources for launching operations in East to West direction, thereby going deeper into POK and take back territories, it was denied to them on one excuse or another.

However, same resources materialized when Indian commanders went for North to South ops or vice versa.

He says that some powers in AHQ (foreign army chief) didn't want India to win back whole of POK.

After his brigade had liberated Uri, he wanted to press home the attack and take back Domel, thereby, opening the way to take back Muzaffarabad. The enemy was in disarray and he wanted to capitalise on it and attack before they got their act together.

But he was denied permission/resources for the same.

vsunder
BRFite
Posts: 843
Joined: 06 Sep 1999 11:31
Location: Ulan Bator, Mongolia

Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Postby vsunder » 17 Sep 2019 00:58

Deans absolutely agree with you. I knew many of the people who fought in the 1948 operations. One could not but growing up in Kanpur in the late 1950's. Where would India even find spares for the Spitfires and Tempests to sustain air operations for an extended war? You think Indian industry could make these spare parts? We had no offensive bombing capabilities, rolling bombs off Dakota was tried by Mehar baba and his group, there is an account somewhere. After the 1948 war, IAF realized they needed a bomb truck pronto. It is then someone remembered that aircraft graveyard in Mirpur/Kanpur Cantt where the B-24's were lying. the big field where we clambered over the B24's and entered disused cockpits does not exist anymore, all ghar, apartments etc etc. Ludo playing centres etc.
When the Collings foundation B24 comes by I have that smirk, because the chances are I might have clambered inside it as a kid. They advertise it as the only flying B24 in the world. Do not say where they got it from.
One day they the B24 were there and soon after they started disappearing. AVM Harjinder Singh was looking after No 1 BRD, AFS Chakeri Kanpur but contrary to popular myth he did not do much to get those B-24's partially salvaged and airborne, he did bugger all. He had the reputation of being a technical whiz. One of the small planes he built called Kanpur-1 lies in one of the hangars in IIT Kanpur, was there when I was a student in that dungeon. It was a HAL guy called Chelappa who jerry rigged the B24s and made them flight worthy to just about fly, and those Parsi brothers from Hyderabad, I have forgotten their names, who made these dangerous ferry flights from Kanpur to HAL Bangalore, opening up full throttle and taking off from Chakeri and trusting to god nothing happens. One of their wives would accompany them forgot her name. She would wear a thick fur coat for the flight. At HAL they got the full overhaul. All this happened in 1950-1952. Uske baad jo koi ko bolna hai bolo, I was there and saw it all at least in the later stages of late 50's.

Later Group Captain Kapadia( a Parsi), took over No 1 BRD from AVM Harjinder Singh. Mrs Kapadia taught me drawing in school. I was her most pathetic student, and she took pity on me by arranging with her husband to have me see the flight line where engine overhauls would take place, Hunters and Gnats and the B24. So I even got to see the first Avro built in what was later HAL Kanpur. The AVRO was called Subroto after you know who. AM Mukherjee's wife Sharda Mukherjee was a stunning and elegant woman. She was a Maharashtrian woman. Later she became Governor of AP.

If you are from Kanpur, and drive on the old GT road towards Allahabad, right after the CoD on the right, that Harjinder nagar is named after AVM Harjinder Singh, I doubt anybody cares nowadays in the era of khemta dancing. Harjinder Singh had a big reputation in WW2 and in the Kashmir operations. He started out as a warrant officer and rose through the ranks and was known as "Flight".

UlanBatori
BRF Oldie
Posts: 13070
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Postby UlanBatori » 17 Sep 2019 01:59

Wonderful post, thanks!

Katare
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2567
Joined: 02 Mar 2002 12:31

Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Postby Katare » 17 Sep 2019 02:10

Deans wrote:While I support the govt on Kashmir and couldn't care less about the `suffering' of the KM population in the current situation, I wonder if the continued denial of mobile services and the internet has outlived its usefulness - same applies to political detainees. My concern is that we will start losing the perception war internationally and some fence sitters in Kashmir, may become a lot more resentful, creating more militancy down the line. I understand that curfew /curbs on movement are now gone throughout the valley. My view is if the likes of Abdullahs and Mufti are released, they may actually prefer detention, given their current popularity. I think our security forces should be in a position to tackle the fallout of easing of mobile and internet restrictions. It will remove the only excuse the KMs have of not resuming a normal life.


You are worrying about it too much, Nehru kept Sheikh Abdullah in detention/jail for 11 years . He was allowed out only when he came to his senses.

Omar and Mehbooba have a long time to go and a reckoning before they would be allowed to come out.

Suraj
Forum Moderator
Posts: 12872
Joined: 20 Jan 2002 12:31

Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Postby Suraj » 17 Sep 2019 02:16

Another aspect to add to vsunder's great historical post - railways in India were in poor shape much before partition. By the mid 1920s, it was clear that Indian independence was a matter of time. Investments towards growth came to a standstill, and by the eve of WW2, approx 45% of the rolling stock and track had been dismantled and shipped to Mesopotamia. They say IR's been around since 1850s, but in reality, what existed was 50+ private companies running 5 different gauges, half of whom packed up to make money serving logistics in the middle east theater.

On another topic, it would be good to see Yasin Malik sentenced and executed in Srinagar. He's the first 'phree dumb fighter' that us younger folks who first became conscious about the Cashmere mess in our teens, came to know of.

Vayutuvan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 10253
Joined: 20 Jun 2011 04:36

Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Postby Vayutuvan » 17 Sep 2019 02:27

vsunder wrote: ... Sharda Mukherjee was a stunning and elegant woman. She was a Maharashtrian woman. Later she became Governor of AP.


Bharathi Mukherjee, IIRC, was the Governor of AP. Of course, Sharada is a synonym of Bharathi or Saraswati.

(mea culpa, in light of vsunder's counter below)
Last edited by Vayutuvan on 17 Sep 2019 05:50, edited 1 time in total.

vsunder
BRFite
Posts: 843
Joined: 06 Sep 1999 11:31
Location: Ulan Bator, Mongolia

Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Postby vsunder » 17 Sep 2019 03:07

Vayutuvan wrote:
vsunder wrote: ... Sharda Mukherjee was a stunning and elegant woman. She was a Maharashtrian woman. Later she became Governor of AP.


Bharathi Mukherjee, IIRC, was the Governor of AP. Of course, Sharada is a synonym of Bharathi or Saraswati.


You are totally mistaken:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharda_Mukherjee

Bharati Mukherjee no relative of Sharada is an American novelist who is now dead.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bharati_Mukherjee

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 53475
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Postby ramana » 17 Sep 2019 03:32

vsunder, In.1990s, I met an Englishman in California. He had enlisted as an aviation technician before WWII in Tata Airways. He had thick eye glasses and was rejected for military service and worked in many base repair depots in India. After the war he helped rebuild some of the B24s. He migrated to US in the 1950s and got a job in Burbank.
Would talk fondly of his life in Bangalore.

Suraj
Forum Moderator
Posts: 12872
Joined: 20 Jan 2002 12:31

Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Postby Suraj » 17 Sep 2019 04:01

The B24 at the RAF Museum in London is ex-IAF, donated to them in the 1970s.

Atmavik
BRFite
Posts: 663
Joined: 24 Aug 2016 04:43

Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Postby Atmavik » 17 Sep 2019 04:04

rohitvats wrote:In his book, Slender was the thread, Lt Gen 'Bogey' Sen hints that there was a larger game at play when it came to Indian Army taking back POK.

He mentions that whenever Indian field commanders asked for troops or resources for launching operations in East to West direction, thereby going deeper into POK and take back territories, it was denied to them on one excuse or another.

However, same resources materialized when Indian commanders went for North to South ops or vice versa.

He says that some powers in AHQ (foreign army chief) didn't want India to win back whole of POK.

After his brigade had liberated Uri, he wanted to press home the attack and take back Domel, thereby, opening the way to take back Muzaffarabad. The enemy was in disarray and he wanted to capitalise on it and attack before they got their act together.

But he was denied permission/resources for the same.



a few Excerpts from this book were in the print website. i will buy and read this book one day. https://theprint.in/pageturner/excerpt/ ... ns/273779/

PS: @Suraj and Vsunder ji great posts!!

UlanBatori
BRF Oldie
Posts: 13070
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Postby UlanBatori » 17 Sep 2019 04:28

Day 41 over. Situation NAAAAAAARMAL

Terrorists target apple orchards to disrupt business.

Farooq Abdullah arrested under Public Nuisance Act.

Pakistan step on their own mijjiles at UNHyoomanRites: Baloch Freedom Fighters do a Khemkaran on them
"Islamic Radicalization is being used as a tool against Baloch efforts for self-determination"


ST seats to be reserved for both Gujjars and Bakarwals in J&K assembly before return to statehood.

Ya-Alla*! :eek: :shock: Donald Trump to join Howdy Modi!!

Kashmir: J&K Governor Malik warns 'Pak-purchased boys' of dire consequences

Supreme Court allows Ghulam Nabi Azad to visit J-K (so he can join Farooq Abdullah I guess)
Supreme Court says restore Naaaaarmalseee but protect National Interest!!

And the cruelest kick of all from SC to Bakistan:Supreme Court finds terror and violence from 1990 events to be FORMIDABLE REASONS for KV lockdown :(( :((

SC also did something pretty ominous. On Betishun that beebals are not allowed to approach HC in J&K, SC says they will go verify if that is true, because that is serious, but if they find it is false they will "fix accountability" for that. :shock:

vsunder
BRFite
Posts: 843
Joined: 06 Sep 1999 11:31
Location: Ulan Bator, Mongolia

Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Postby vsunder » 17 Sep 2019 05:19

A few more comments. I dug up the video about Mehar Baba, not the saint but the IAF Air commodore. His improvised bombing of Poonch using 250lb bombs rolled off a Dakota is mentioned and towards the end of the video Air Marshal Grewal talks about it, how the fuzing was done and what they did. Mehar Baba personally flew the Dakota for that bombing mission and Air Marshal Grewal was on board. This daring bombing broke the back of the enemy at Poonch. The Grewal account appears at the end of the video. In fact most of the second half of the video is about the Kashmir operations of 1948 and the IAF role. Sadly Mehar Singh had a falling out with JLN and left the service soon after the Kashmir war, and for a time after that was the personal pilot of the Patiala Maharaja. By most accounts Poonch was saved because of Mehar Baba's actions. Sadly Mehar Baba died prematurely in a plane crash and so did the other daredevil Jumbo Mazumdar.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7L49bR86v6I

Regarding L. P. Sen, he is on record as saying that Gandhi told him War is inhuman, but it is OK to fight for Kashmir. Now who knows. Nevertheless comments such as this gives one pause.

https://theprint.in/pageturner/excerpt/ ... ns/273779/

Vikas
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6292
Joined: 03 Dec 2005 02:40
Location: Where DST doesn't bother me
Contact:

Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Postby Vikas » 17 Sep 2019 10:40

JLN in 1948 too was no pacifist but that still didn't make him a smart leader. He still was full of half crazy ideas inspired partly by his mentor and partly by his own sense of being a brown sahib. Qaid-e-Hajam on the other side of the border was equally crazy bat and egotist but without his Mountbatten. J most likely fell for the UNO trap not knowing what he was walking into. He I think was counting on his Mountbatten and bloated sense of importance with British crown.

As far war efforts, Even till late 90's, connectivity with Jammu as well the Valley was pretty tenuous with bad roads post Pathankot and single line railway track uptil jammu, Less said about Jammu to Kashmir road, better. Porkis had the advantage that they were already inside J&K with somewhat sympathetic population in Mirpur etc.


PS: Yasin Malik along with Bitta Karate must be hanged. We still don't have any Muslim Kashmiri terrorist punished under IPC.

Pratyush
BRF Oldie
Posts: 8117
Joined: 05 Mar 2010 15:13

Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Postby Pratyush » 17 Sep 2019 10:43

Regarding Gen Sen and his meeting with MKG. IIRC, even Sam Manikshaw recounts something similar.

banrjeer
BRFite
Posts: 229
Joined: 21 Dec 2008 14:39

Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Postby banrjeer » 17 Sep 2019 11:31

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VBMk0x01gCQ

Is highly useful for understanding the circumstances of K&K and partition. Covers reason for bonhomie btw JLN & Sheikh

wig
BRFite
Posts: 1754
Joined: 09 Feb 2009 16:58

Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Postby wig » 17 Sep 2019 11:49

Brig Pritam Singh was a distingusihed participant in the battle of Poonch in 1947-48 . it was said that without Brig Singh there would be no Poonch. However his career went astray later

Five years later, as a Lt Col, on October 30, 1947, he visited the Army Headquarters while on leave. When he heard of the grave situation in J&K, he volunteered to take his unit, 1 Kumaon (Para), to Srinagar. The same evening, he was given his posting order and he landed with his unit at Srinagar the next day – October 31, 1947.

The unit quickly joined the battle at Shalteng along with 1 Sikh. This battle was the turning point of the war and in the next three weeks, the enemy was chased back beyond Uri. But there was no rest for 1 Kumaon — Pritam Singh was tasked to relieve Poonch, which was under siege, via the Haji Pir Pass.

After a gruelling march, 1 Kumaon fought its way into Poonch on November 21, 1947, with 419 men. However, soon the unit itself got besieged. Poonch was held by 1,400 men of J&K Forces that had withdrawn from Mirpur, Kotli and Jhangar. There were 40,000 refugees who had escaped the massacres in these towns. All surrounding heights around Poonch were held by the enemy. Rations for soldiers and civilians were just enough for one week and ammunition was down to few rounds per soldier.

“Cometh the hour, cometh the man”, and the ‘the man’ was Lt Col Pritam Singh. J&K State Forces garrison was preparing for withdrawal and 40,000 Hindus and Sikhs were awaiting certain death. Pritam Singh cancelled the orders for withdrawal, immediately reorganized the defences and took charge of the administration. He personally led the attacks on the enemy positions in the immediate vicinity to secure the town. With help of the civilians, he constructed an airstrip on which the legendary pilot of the IAF, Air Commodore ‘Baba’ Mehar Singh, MVC, DSO, along with Air Vice Marshal (later Chief of Air Staff) Subrato Mukerjee landed in a Harvard aircraft on December 12, 1947.

On the same day, Dakota aircrafts started landing. Mehar Singh soon established an ‘air bridge’ to Poonch with the Dakotas carrying in supplies, guns and ammunition and taking back refugees. The IAF coined the term “Poonching” — the technique of flying in the narrow valleys with transport aircraft. Mehar Singh also modified Dakota aircraft to bomb enemy positions. Pritam Singh raised two militia battalions, 11 and 8 J&K Militia, from able-bodied men of Poonch. Lt Col Pritam Singh was promoted to the rank of Brigadier in December 1948. One more unit, 3/9 Gorkha Rifles, was air landed in January-February 1948.

For one year, a fierce struggle continued at Poonch. At stake was 1,500 square km of territory. Surrounding heights were being captured, lost, to be recaptured again, blows were being absorbed and delivered back with greater ferocity and the battle to secure Poonch was being pursued relentlessly. Pritam led from the front and was wounded in action. In one year, Singh, cut off from the rest of the country, attacked and secured all the hill features that were threatening Poonch, organized the civil administration and saved the lives of 40,000 Hindus and Sikhs. He was also very fair to the Muslim population. The civilians named this daring officer “Sher Bachha”. He was finally relieved on November 20, 1948, when the road to Poonch from Rajouri was forced open by a division size force under Brig Yadunath Singh. The siege of Poonch by all standards is one of the greatest sieges in which the defender was victorious.

The end of the war brought up another phenomenon – jealousy and intrigues among the senior officers most of whom had been catapulted to higher ranks without command of units and some without spending a single day in battle. The larger than life, mercurial Brigadier Pritam Singh was ensnared in this web of deceit. In 1951, Poonch’s “Sher Bachha” faced a court-martial and was dismissed from service for moral misdemeanours of misappropriating approximately ?10k and a carpet! In respect of a Commander with unlimited funds at his disposal, these were certainly petty charges. None other than General Thimayya, who was a defence witness stated, “Without Pritam, there would have been no Poonch, and with Poonch would have gone these carpets. Why are you crucifying this good soldier for nothing?” After his court-martial Brig Pritam Singh said, “Sometimes serious doubts assail me whether it would have been better to have let the State Forces garrison to slip out and followed it, than to have put up a tenacious fight, but I dispel them with my conviction that I have done my duty to India and that one day the truth will come out.” Stripped of his rank and decorations, the hero of Poonch died unsung and unwept.



https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/blo ... es-pardon/

rohitvats
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 7699
Joined: 08 Sep 2005 18:24
Location: Jatland

Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Postby rohitvats » 17 Sep 2019 12:03

The bit about sacking of Brigadier Sen - Brigadier Sen wanted to engineer a head-on confrontation between own forces and Tribal hordes. Tribal were too great in number and adept at working in small numbers, where they would bypass the larger fixed defenses and appear in the rear areas. He was sure that sooner than later, these tribal would infiltrate into Srinagar and his own troops would not be able to prevent that.

No of troops available with Sen were inadequate to seal off this kind of movement by the Tribal groups. So, he wanted more of a 1-on-1 between own troops and them and have a decisive battle.

Bold planning, on the feet thinking coupled with some fortuitous circumstances (remember, luck favors the brave) led to the famous Battle of Shalateng where 161 Infantry Brigade under Brigadier Sen decimated the Pathan Lashkars who suffered close to 500 killed!

Just a troops of armored cars from 7 Light Cavalry caused absolute havoc amongst the Pathans.

The news came about Lashkars marching down the Baramula - Srinagar Road. The ruse by Brigadier Sen - removing 1 Sikh from Pattan, which was blocking the Baramula - Srinagar axis - had worked. Pathans had taken the bait and started moving enmasse towards their prize possession - Srinagar.

Brigadier Sen had positioned his troops in strong defenses in the area south of Shalateng, with one battalion on its western flank.


As I said, luck favors the brave - what happened here was that armored cars had been sent to recce certain areas north-east of Shalateng and they reported all normal. When news came about Pathans moving towards Srinagar, Brigadier Sen wanted to intercept them at Shalateng. And he immediately asked the 7 Cavalry troops to move towards it.

Now, think of Shalateng as tip of an inverted triangle. 7 Cavalry armored cars and motorized troops were at top right of the triangle. They went west towards top-left point and then came down/south-est towards the tip - Shalateng.

When these cars were closing on Shalateng, it actually encountered group of Pathans who thought the Pakistan Army has come to help them! And even waved to the 7 Cavalry troops.

When the signal was given, armored cars opened up and there was absolute mayhem. And rest is history.

You can red about the battle here: http://www.indiandefencereview.com/interviews/defence-of-srinagar-1947/2/

And this is the location of the village of Shalateng - 34.1130735,74.7446569

Armored cars had been sent to recce Ganderbal area from where they moved west and came down the Bandipora-Srinagar road which meets Baramula-Srinagar road at Shalateng.

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18657
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Postby Karan M » 17 Sep 2019 12:52

All that damage only by 2 armored cars.

jaysimha
BRFite
Posts: 1081
Joined: 20 Dec 2017 14:30

Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Postby jaysimha » 17 Sep 2019 14:56


Manish_P
BRFite
Posts: 1978
Joined: 25 Mar 2010 17:34

Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Postby Manish_P » 17 Sep 2019 15:15

rohitvats wrote:..And rest is history..


Which is not even taught to subsequent generations.. leave aside celebrated :(

rohitvats
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 7699
Joined: 08 Sep 2005 18:24
Location: Jatland

Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Postby rohitvats » 17 Sep 2019 16:03

(1) Battle of Badgam -

Where a patrol party under Major Somnath Sharma, took on a force 10 times its size, and inflicted such heavy casualties on them that the Pathans thought they're up against a much larger force and broke their attack, was the first major battle. And it saved the Badgam/Srinagar airfield.

W/O this airfield, there would've been no Srinagar.

Major Somnath Sharma was awarded PVC for this valiant action.

(2) Battle of Shalateng -

The decisive battle which ended the threat to Srinagar. Had AHQ and Indian political leadership acted decisively, it opened up a window to take back Muzaffarabad before anyone from Pakistan's side would've known what struck them.

Brigadier 'Bogey' Sen comes across as a resolute, decisive and aggressive military commander. He sized up the situation very aptly when he took over the command and made the bold plan to bait the Pathan Lashkars to attack Srinagar and sought a decisive head-on battle between self and the enemy.

Went against his Division Commander, who did not support the plan, and even asked him to submit in writing that he (Brigadier Sen) alone was responsible for the plan and the consequences.

This link has a detailed story from the time Indian troops landed in Srinagar to Battle of Shalateng, along with good maps:

https://m.dailyhunt.in/news/india/english/defence+lover-epaper-defence/the+story+of+how+srinagar+was+saved-newsid-95805871

Ashokk
BRFite
Posts: 501
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Postby Ashokk » 17 Sep 2019 16:19

How the Indian Army tracked down a Kashmiri basketball player in a day after Article 370 was revoked
NEW DELHI: After article 370 which gave Jammu and Kashmir special status was revoked, phone and internet connections in the state were badly hit. Around that time the Wheelchair Basketball Federation of India (WBFI) was trying to get in touch with one of their players - Ishrat Akhter. The 24-year-old had made the cut for the Asia-Oceania Wheelchair Basketball Championship in Thailand, to be played in November-December this year. The tournament is a qualifier tournament for the 2020 Tokyo Paralympics.

However, the Wheelchair basketball Federation of India had no way of getting in touch with Ishrat to let her know that she had been selected and that she had to go to Chennai for a National camp. And that's when fate intervened and a chance conversation between two old friends changed the story.

Former Navy officer Louis George is the coach of the Indian women’s wheelchair basketball team. He was talking to one of his old school friends Colonel (retired) Isenhower, who also served in the Intelligence Bureau (IB), when he mentioned Ishrat to him.

“Isenhower and I were classmates. On 25th August (20 days after article 370 was revoked), I just called him randomly for fun. We were talking normally as usual. I casually asked him and discussed about Kashmir. Then I also told him that one of my players (Ishrat) hasn’t come in from Kashmir and we are trying hard to reach her. He asked a couple of things about her. He asked for her photo and through his sources in Kashmir, he informed the Jammu and Kashmir police in Srinagar and then informed the Indian army,” Louis told TimesofIndia.com.

Ishrat's coach didn't have her exact address. But Isehnower's efforts saw a group of Army men start a search mission, as they found out that Ishrat lives in a small village called Bangdara in Baramulla from the Voluntary Medicare Society in Srinagar, where Ishrat was introduced to wheelchair basketball. They then went door to door in Bangdara to find Ishrat. Incredibly, the mission was completed on the same day (August 25), since Ishrat had to reach Chennai by August 27.

On the night of August 25 Ishrat was with her father Abdul Rashid Mir at her home in Bangdara in Baramula when she heard someone knocking at the door. Her father opened the door and saw a group of army jawans holding her daughter’s photo and asking for her. Rashid was quite afraid, especially because article 370 had been revoked and there was a lock down in place.

The Army personal, who was holding Ishrat’s photograph asked loudly - "Is she your daughter?"

A frightened Rashid stammered ‘Yes’.

The Army men looked at each other and laughed. Rashid was surprised.

" Aapki beti Indian wheelchair basketball team mein select ho gayi hai. Mubarak ho!. Aapko Chennai jana hai. (Congratulations! Your daughter has been selected in the Indian wheelchair basketball team. You have to go to Chennai) the army jawan told the surprised Rashid.

Fear turned into jubilation. An elated Rashid thanked the army men for what they had done for his daughter.

“When there was a knock on the door, my father, my family and I were frightened as there were lots of things that were going on in Kashmir. After I heard the news (of India selection), I hugged my father. I was so happy,” Ishrat told Timesofindia.com in an exclusive interview.

The men who had put all this in motion was Ishrat's coach Louis George and his old friend Colonel (retired) Isenhower.

“Isenhower did an amazing job. Due to him, the Indian army escorted her (Ishrat) to the Srinagar airport and sent her to Chennai. Isenhower did all the arrangements (tickets etc) for her,” the coach told TimesofIndia.com.

Ishrat is set to represent India in the Asia-Oceania Wheelchair Basketball Championship from November 27 to December 8, to be held in Thailand and the credit goes to the Indian Army for making this possible.

"On 27th (August) morning, a group of army men and police came around 6 am to pick me and took me to the airport. The day I was leaving for the airport, the entire village gathered and applauded me. They (Army jawans) dropped me at Srinagar Airport. From there I reached Delhi and then Chennai. I traveled all alone. The Indian army helped a lot in this journey. I was scared also because this was the first time I was travelling alone and that too with a lot of security," Ishrat, who injured her spinal cord in an accident in 2016, said.

"We all know what the condition in Kashmir is. I never imagined I will be traveling out (of Kashmir) on a wheelchair. I was scared initially but not now," Ishrat said.

Ishrat also met Sports Minister Kiren Rijiju. She was taken to meet the Minister by the Secretary General of the Wheelchair Basketball Federation of India Kalyani Rajaraman.

"After being selected, my federation (WBFI) had taken an appointment to meet the Sports Minister Kiren Rijiju. He has assured me of all the help I need in my sports journey. I didn’t have a sports wheelchair. He has promised to arrange one for me. I have played basketball with a normal wheelchair or a borrowed wheelchair till date. When I played the Nationals, the WBFI arranged a sports wheelchair for me," Ishrat told TimesofIndia.com.

Talented Miss Ishrat Akhtar from Baramulla in Kashmir Valley has been selected to represent India at the Asia-Ocean… https://t.co/pCvqvqfq33
— Kiren Rijiju (@KirenRijiju) 1567671217000

"Every wheelchair basketball player should have a sports wheelchair. It is made for the sport. You can play with other wheelchairs too but that causes a lot of discomfort and difficulties. It is very challenging to own a sports wheelchair though. The reason is their limited availability, since they not manufactured in India, but in the UK. One can have a basic sports wheelchair as well which costs around Rs. 40,000. This you can use just for practice. We have asked the Sports Ministry for a personalised high-end sports wheelchair for her. It will cost around Rs. 4 lakh. Rijiju sir was very nice and listened to us properly. Big thanks to him that he gave us the time. He has promised to support Ishrat and the Federation." Kalyani told TimesofIndia.com.

Ishrat injured her spinal cord in an accident in 2016. After the accident, she was bedridden for eight months. She eventually joined the Voluntary Medicare Society in Srinagar where she was introduced to wheelchair basketball. From there on she found her purpose in life.

Ishrat, whose father Rashid works in the Water department in PHE (Public Health Engineering Department), has a step mother and two sisters. Ishrat's mother died due to kidney failure when Ishrat was in the 10th standard.

"My parents have supported me a lot. They never stopped me from playing basketball. In fact, they encouraged and supported me at every step. People in my locality and village know me with by my name and what I do. They call me Ishrat, the basketball player," the 24-year-old said.

"My father has played a big role. He used to take me to the training centre in Srinagar from Baramula by bus which would take two hours to reach. Whatever I am today is due to my father. I want to dedicate every medal I will win for my country to him," an emotional and proud Ishrat signed off.

Sanju
BRFite
Posts: 996
Joined: 14 Aug 2005 01:00
Location: North of 49

Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Postby Sanju » 17 Sep 2019 18:24



RV, Can't read the link.. Even after downloading the app on am iPad.

Rsatchi
BRFite
Posts: 378
Joined: 04 Aug 2019 22:03

Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Postby Rsatchi » 17 Sep 2019 18:43

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/ind ... 168584.cms
Situation not NAAAARMAAAAL!! :((
The commies are not even a national party anymore and yet want to have a say in everything :roll:
This guy should be the target for 'defeat at all costs' a la Ahmed Patel style attempt if he stands for RS seat again.
I suppose he may get elected from 100 % Lit-~Shit state of Malluristan :lol:

dipak
BRFite
Posts: 197
Joined: 31 Dec 2008 19:18

Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Postby dipak » 17 Sep 2019 20:35

rohitvats wrote:(1) Battle of Badgam -

Where a patrol party under Major Somnath Sharma, took on a force 10 times its size, and inflicted such heavy casualties on them that the Pathans thought they're up against a much larger force and broke their attack, was the first major battle. And it saved the Badgam/Srinagar airfield.
.
.
.
Went against his Division Commander, who did not support the plan, and even asked him to submit in writing that he (Brigadier Sen) alone was responsible for the plan and the consequences.

This link has a detailed story from the time Indian troops landed in Srinagar to Battle of Shalateng, along with good maps:

https://m.dailyhunt.in/news/india/english/defence+lover-epaper-defence/the+story+of+how+srinagar+was+saved-newsid-95805871

A gripping account and a wonderful read. Thanks for posting.

In the link, I noticed in the last line, the author has quoted Major Ravi Rikhye, instead of Major Inder Jit Rikhye, as given initially.

vsunder
BRFite
Posts: 843
Joined: 06 Sep 1999 11:31
Location: Ulan Bator, Mongolia

Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Postby vsunder » 17 Sep 2019 20:46

Karan M wrote:All that damage only by 2 armored cars.


IA at its best myth making form. Thank god IA did not state they accomplished it by two guys using slingshots like David. I just saw David in Florence. The raider columns at Shalateng were trapped by IA and rocketed overhead by IAF using Tempests, strafed the daylights out of them. Newspaper accounts of that time state IAF role explicitly. More contemporary Rakesh Sharma the astronaut chap, in his narration to the documentary "Salt of the Earth" when he talks of the Battle of Shalateng, says explicitly "with the IA laying the trap below and the RIAF above, the raider columns had no option but to fall back to Uri". Please listen to that part. In fact the The Hindustan Times the next day after the battle carried the headline, "Raiders repulsed with heavy casualties, RIAF bombs marauder concentrations". 25 vehicles were destroyed by RIAF action alone along the Shalateng road. No 1 squadron from Srinagar, Nos 7 and 10 from Ambala and Amritsar respectively took part in the battle of Shalateng. The Hindustan Times account in my mind is fair and accurate to all branches of the services.

I think ACM PC Lal is correct in his book when he talks about Longewala: 12 Infantry Div celebrates Longewala victory Day even though it had nothing to do with stopping the Pak. tank forces at Longewala. Do we? Because dear IAF you were left with Babaji ka thulla by IA and its many apologists on twitter and SM.

Accounts of the IAF role at the battle of Shalateng and its crucial role can also be found, in the book An Incredible War, by Air Marshal Bharat Kumar, PVSM, AVSM(retd). The book has a second edition. Then we can all descend here and play gulli danda. My personal preference is snakes and ladder.

pushkar.bhat
BRFite
Posts: 276
Joined: 29 Mar 2008 19:27
Location: prêt à monter dans le Arihant
Contact:

Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Postby pushkar.bhat » 17 Sep 2019 22:57

For sure the 12th Inf Div's win at Longewala is an absolute IA Myth. Let's accept the fact that Maj KC Chandpuri and his troop had dug the deepest foxhole they could dig (and rightly so). The Pak Army's 22nd Cavalary was a formidable unit with the firepower at its disposal. A company of the 23rd Punjab did not stand a fighting chance against it. That day the 4 FBSU and the Hunter detachment based there saved the day for the 23rd Punjab.


Return to “Strategic Issues & International Relations Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: UlanBatori and 13 guests