J&K Union Territory-2019

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Sachin
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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Post by Sachin »

No smiles in Kashmir after politicians' meet with PM Modi in Delhi
:lol:. Only smile would be here in BRF. Looks like the meeting was just an eye-wash, with Modi & Co not budging from their earlier stance. It was a typical chai-biskoot session. The Kashmiri politicians may be making grand statements in order to retain some fig leaf of credibility with the Kashmiri free loaders. But even that seems to be getting exposed now.
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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Post by chetak »

Sachin wrote:No smiles in Kashmir after politicians' meet with PM Modi in Delhi
:lol:. Only smile would be here in BRF. Looks like the meeting was just an eye-wash, with Modi & Co not budging from their earlier stance. It was a typical chai-biskoot session. The Kashmiri politicians may be making grand statements in order to retain some fig leaf of credibility with the Kashmiri free loaders. But even that seems to be getting exposed now.

For what it's worth, this is a thread that was put out by Abhijit Iyer-Mitra @Iyervval after the meeting.


Just spoke to a senior leader present in the PMs meeting on J&K. There seems a great variance in what certain leaders are saying to cameras and what was said to them - essentially the riot act was read out.

First not one leader brought up the issue of 370 or 35A despite what they’re claiming.

They have all accepted this as fait accompli.

Second they were told that the sequence of events will be as follows: Delimitation; Elections; Good Behaviour; Statehood. This is important because the delimitation will ensure that the balance of seats between Jammu & Kashmir divisions will be as per their respective demography.

More importantly the relevant sections of the constitution with regards to reservations - specifically for SC/ST/OBC (such as bakarwals etc) will be implemented in full. however this alone will not lead to statehood. Statehood while sequential, will depend entirely on how parties behave and support the deconfliction of the economy - mind you both NC & PDP derive much of their income from the conflict and are invested in it.

Essentially the way it was described to me was a perfect balancing act between carrots and sticks. Their ability to monetise the conflict has been destroyed & now carrots are being dangled for them to create more palatable & legal avenues of fund raising to run their parties and powerbases.

No clear deadline was given for when statehood will be bestowed and any bad behaviour by these two malignant parties will be used to deny statehood - essentially a dilemma has been created for them - do they bankrupt themselves sticking to the past or do they lose their voter base by embracing the new deconflicted avenues of money making?

The latter means they will start generating money but they’d still have to cut off old corrupt fogeys who have no avenues of changing tack. Quite smart - especially given no specific assurances were given, but they have to keep performing like circus monkeys in the hope that something good MAY come their way. In short none of these jokers are actually being “accommodated” - they’re being dangled goodies to become domesticated pets or become irrelevant and live in penury.

It was made clear that these parties will have to EARN trust - given their past actions they’re not getting a free lunch - the onus is ENTIRELY on them to mend their ways - it’s no longer about what they want from Delhi, but rather what Delhi wants from them.
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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Post by Cyrano »

Sorry, but this meeting with PM has sent glaring wrong signals that I'm afraid will come back to haunt us in not so distant future. It says, you can loot the GoI for decades and support Pakistan overtly, make anti India statements at every possible occasion and threaten "rivers of blood" and spit on the idea of India, but you will still be called for chai biskoot discussion at the highest executive table in the country.

Even assuming AI Mitra's inside scoop above is 100% true, it only reconfirms the notion that NaMo, AS and AD still consider Gupkar Gang as not only incontournable but also essential to future political process in J&K.

Now NaMo has convinced them that there is still future for them, thereby created an incentive right there to restart their machinations and subversive activities again. Reoccupy the political space preventing others from growing. Mend their ways - won't happen. Generations of DNA tells them to do otherwise. Right after the meeting Mehooba Mufti brazenly called for involving Pakistan again in J&K's future! How dare ?!!

WTH would we lose if the Gupkar Gang was totally sidelined from this meeting? What exactly were we scared of which compelled their inclusion ? Why are we so shy of dishing out the mildest of retributions like forced political sanyaas on these traitors for the 60,000 lives lost over three decades? Instead of trying these snakes for corruption, sedition etc and putting them in Rajahmundry central jail for rest of their lives, we pouring milk and giving them new lease of life ? Why such weak knees ?
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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Post by tandav »

Drones attacked Jammu Air Force Base this morning.

https://www.indiatoday.in/cities/story/ ... 2021-06-27
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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Post by chetak »

Cyrano wrote:Sorry, but this meeting with PM has sent glaring wrong signals that I'm afraid will come back to haunt us in not so distant future. It says, you can loot the GoI for decades and support Pakistan overtly, make anti India statements at every possible occasion and threaten "rivers of blood" and spit on the idea of India, but you will still be called for chai biskoot discussion at the highest executive table in the country.

Even assuming AI Mitra's inside scoop above is 100% true, it only reconfirms the notion that NaMo, AS and AD still consider Gupkar Gang as not only incontournable but also essential to future political process in J&K.

Now NaMo has convinced them that there is still future for them, thereby created an incentive right there to restart their machinations and subversive activities again. Reoccupy the political space preventing others from growing. Mend their ways - won't happen. Generations of DNA tells them to do otherwise. Right after the meeting Mehooba Mufti brazenly called for involving Pakistan again in J&K's future! How dare ?!!

WTH would we lose if the Gupkar Gang was totally sidelined from this meeting? What exactly were we scared of which compelled their inclusion ? Why are we so shy of dishing out the mildest of retributions like forced political sanyaas on these traitors for the 60,000 lives lost over three decades? Instead of trying these snakes for corruption, sedition etc and putting them in Rajahmundry central jail for rest of their lives, we pouring milk and giving them new lease of life ? Why such weak knees ?

There are no weak knees here.

The big picture visible to the Modi govt is not visible to the public at large and so there may be some differences in public perception as well as in realistically understanding and evaluating the full range of available options.

saap bhi mare aur lathi bhi na tute is what Modi is aiming for

Modi has done what no govt dared to do, even after 70 years of sharia jehadis continually assuring the world that the will of the Indian constitution can easily be subverted by rhetoric and flowery pomposity.

Things will go as per the center's plans and very competent people are now engaged in this seditious snake pit to ensure that India does not lose out, this time around.

The mafia famiglia is quiet but the "friendship" between ghulam nabi azad and Modi is a bit puzzling unless azad is being propped up to undercut the eyetalian mafia and their BIF support system.

the extreme angst of the pakis is proof enough that India is on the right track, as far as cashmere is concerned.

imran ahmed khan niazi is beside himself, scrambling to gain and keep a toehold in the narrative and thus remain relevant in cashmere, post art 370 and 35A, otherwise bajwa's and the paki army's khana peena is in grave danger of getting drastically reduced as are imran ahmed khan niazi's already not so rosy future prospects.

the saudis and the gelfies have already put the brakes on cashmere and that has affected their paki funding drastically, leaving the pakis almost completely in the grasping and unforgiving hands of their cheeni "iron" brothers.
Right after the meeting Mehooba Mufti brazenly called for involving Pakistan again in J&K's future! How dare
what else do you expect an entitled jehadi like mufti to do, her imagined virasat is evaporating before her very eyes and there is nothing she or any of the other seditious wokes can do about it. They have been out maneuvered at every stage of the game and new "leadership" is being groomed as we speak. She has been openly paki loving and overtly seditious as far back as one can remember, especially when her father was alive.

Her cognitive dissonance and her colossal spitefulness at her abject failure to tame the Modi govt when she was in a "coalition" govt with them has destroyed her credibility as well as her political reputation. Where else can she lash out in her hatred and her malignancy

she is the cashmeri pappu.

The same blind frustration, the same searing, corrosive, irrational, and impotent hatred drives them both. They are both "leaders" without followers.

such statements of mufti and abdullah are par for the paki support course, and also for the abdullahs and the muftis to show the cashmiris how brave and defiant they are. Every scandal, every scam and every racket has the bloodstained hands of these families energetically stirring the gravy pot and pocketing the proceeds.

such people are always the first for the high jump when the jihadis come around to gloss up the sharia paradise.

today, farook the abdullah has lashed out about how India has lost the trust of the cashmeris, so who gives a rats because it is the trust of the Indian people that is far more important because, after all, they are paying all the cashmeri bills and have been doing so since independence.


The abdullahs', pere et fils, have been rendered impotent and that's got to hurt badly. the abdullah family has got easy access and uncontestable rights to a britshit passport/citizenship.

I am very certain that the entire abdullah family already has the permanent leave to remain permission from the UK govt already endorsed in their passports. Those in their extended family not covered under the PLR can and will claim political asylum which the UK govt will gladly grant with alacrity.

what the abdullahs' cannot say openly, they make one of the uncles in the family to say and that "uncle" spews the venom against the Indian govt and the Hindus.

these abdullahs, muftis, and other entitled scum are the darlings of the lootyens presstitute media and the BIF global ecosystem
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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Post by g.sarkar »

https://www.msn.com/en-in/news/other/ja ... ar-AALurEQ
Jammu Airport Blasts LIVE Updates: Drones in Twin Explosions Could be Remote Controlled, IAF Stations in Punjab & Srinagar on Alert
News Desk, 27/06/2021

Jammu Airport Blasts LIVE Updates: The twin explosions at the Jammu Airport today morning were likely triggered by a remote-controlled drone, sources have told News18, adding that an FIR for sabotage has been registered. Sources believe the blasts could be a drone attack since the patrol party at the Jammu technical area saw a light blink in the air. When they rushed to the spot, an explosion occurred in which two people sustained minor injuries. The combing ops did not result in the apprehension of anyone. Sources say that the current radars are equipped to detect incoming threats but drones are too small to be detected.
They added that drones usually used are very small and fly low so can go undetected by the radar. The SOP is to shoot them down when spotted but at night spotting is a challenge. The drone could have been remote controlled and pay load dropped at the exact chosen spot. It is also being probed if the hangar was the specific target and if insider information was available on the exact location of the hangar.
The use of drones to carry out two blasts at the Jammu airport early on Sunday morning seems to be an attempt by Pakistan to repeat the 2016 terrorist attack on the Indian Air Force base in Punjab’s Pathankot, initial probe suggests. Top intelligence sources told News18 that the Jammu airport blasts, in which two people were injured, is an attempt from across the border.
.....
Gautam
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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Post by hemant_sai »

This is what essentially ceasefire agreement is.
The way we are handling Chinese and Pakis, it is very clear that we are eternal fools.
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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Post by Deans »

g.sarkar wrote:https://www.msn.com/en-in/news/other/ja ... ar-AALurEQ
Jammu Airport Blasts LIVE Updates: The twin explosions at the Jammu Airport today morning were likely triggered by a remote-controlled drone, sources have told News18, adding that an FIR for sabotage has been registered. Sources believe the blasts could be a drone attack since the patrol party at the Jammu technical area saw a light blink in the air. When they rushed to the spot, an explosion occurred in which two people sustained minor injuries. The combing ops did not result in the apprehension of anyone. Sources say that the current radars are equipped to detect incoming threats but drones are too small to be detected.
They added that drones usually used are very small and fly low so can go undetected by the radar. The SOP is to shoot them down when spotted but at night spotting is a challenge. The drone could have been remote controlled and pay load dropped at the exact chosen spot. It is also being probed if the hangar was the specific target and if insider information was available on the exact location of the hangar.
.....
Gautam
Very similar to a drone attack I described in my (fiction) book, except the book one was by our SF at Peshawar airport.
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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Post by jamwal »

Image
This so called "peer baba" inside Jammu airport is a huge security risk and should be removed asap. It used to just a ramshackle grave, now a huge shrine, mostly because of donations of idiotic Hindus
I had posted this tweet in Feb. https://twitter.com/JaidevJamwal/status ... 2492139520

Airport is too far from border for this type of drones, so it has been done by someone nearby.
Additionally, a large number of sikhs in surrounding area and bhindiwala sympathisers type with regular display of khalistani posters and virulent anti-Hindu sentiment. Can't trust them either.
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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Post by RajaRudra »

Its very costly to maintain enemy at two sides. Hope we are planning to put off one enemy at the earliest available time.

Any country needs an enemy to sustain as a country. A country with out enemy and with resources will become a easy potato pickup. At the same time, sustaining more than one powerful enemy is not sustainable and resources will not be enough at any point of time.

Best time to finish off one enemy is 1948, 65, 71 and even 99. We like it or not , but there is going to be war with pakistan and china one day or the other. Why to let the enemy decide on the date and time of his choosing.

Now, the pakis are at the lowest point economically. Even the appetite for ceasefire in Pindi could be to conserve ammunition. This drone attack could be both a test of possible drone usage to attack in future and testing our response.

That Drone could have been operated across the border, or even could be assembled and operated from near by place. One thing is sure is Pakistan's hands are in it. We should not even be wasting time in finding the direct pakistan link in this. We should just investigate the role of insiders and penalizing them.

There must be punishment to Pakistan military installation at the earliest to not let the reason go unnoticed. To begin with why even respect the ceasefire(Pakistan is not respecting the same and is sending the arms through drones). We should just be pounding the border areas hitting the miliraty posts and bridges, i read somewhere that every year many tones of ammunition will go waste as the shelf life is finishing, why not put to use those once in few years to clear the list and beat the snake at the same time.
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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Post by Deans »

jamwal wrote:
This so called "peer baba" inside Jammu airport is a huge security risk and should be removed asap. It used to just a ramshackle grave, now a huge shrine, mostly because of donations of idiotic Hindus
I had posted this tweet in Feb. https://twitter.com/JaidevJamwal/status ... 2492139520

Airport is too far from border for this type of drones, so it has been done by someone nearby.
Additionally, a large number of sikhs in surrounding area and bhindiwala sympathisers type with regular display of khalistani posters and virulent anti-Hindu sentiment. Can't trust them either.
It is most likely someone nearby, with line of sight to the IAF assets, to manually guide the drone.
I have seen that shrine and agree. My concern is with the large no of Rohingyas in the area, though until I read your previous posts, I was unaware of a Khalistani threat. I have a similar concern with IAF in Srinagar. Given the shortage of aircraft, it may make sense to shift all IAF assets there to Avantipur, where there isn't a large civilian presence. Srinagar airport can then be expanded for civilian use, which will give a boost to tourism in the valley.
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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Post by sanjaykumar »

Come come now, don't misunderstand the Sikhs in Jammu.

Like some misunderstand the Sikhs in Kaneda. Only a small minority, not representative of the Sikh nation at large.

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_ ... t+brampton
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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Post by Kaivalya »

Two low intensity explosions were reported early Sunday morning in the technical area of Jammu Air Force Station. One caused minor damage to the roof of a building while the other exploded in an open area. There was no damage to any equipment. Investigation is in progress along with civil agencies.
https://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/a ... 2021-06-27
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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Post by jamwal »

:rotfl:
Misunderstand? These c*unts put on khalistani posters not just on inside but outside their houses too. I have only 2-3 sikh friends left even after spending all my youth in state because I hated and criticised their support for bhindiwala ideology. Have even received multiple threatening calls from these airheads sitting in foreign lands as well as their homes in Jammu. There is an engineering college 4-5 km from airport and the rooms had huge posters of sikh terrorists for anyone to see.

Of course not all are like this and there are many sensible and good people too. But they almost never say anything against rampant supremacism and hatred against Hindus in their community. I thought like you did when I was younger, but observing their actions in last decade or so have completely cured me of such delusions.

Whats that youtube link btw?
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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Post by morem »

sanjaykumar wrote:Come come now, don't misunderstand the Sikhs in Jammu.

Like some misunderstand the Sikhs in Kaneda. Only a small minority, not representative of the Sikh nation at large.

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_ ... t+brampton
i swear i thought this was sarcasm , till i saw Jamwal ji's reply
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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Post by chetak »

watch the video to see how this joker Manjinder Singh Sirsa @mssirsa chanced his opinion and thinking when his community got a taste of love jihad and forced nikah after kidnapping.

this has happened in cashmere and not in paki land

It's hurtful to see just what he said about the Hindus from whom he gets his votes.

BTW, He is the sitting MLA of Rajouri Garden, New Delhi on BJP and Akali Dal seat

He is also the President of Delhi Sikh Gurdwara Management Committee, elected second time in a row, first in 2013 and then again in 2017.


Manjinder Singh Sirsa @mssirsa · 10h

The local Sikh community of Jammu and Kashmir urges @AmitShah Ji to get a strong law implemented in Jammu & Kashmir (Just like Uttar Pradesh & Madhya Pradesh) mandating Permission of parents in inter-religion marriages to stop these forced Nikahs of Sikh minority girls

WATCH VIDEO
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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Post by rsingh »

morem wrote:
sanjaykumar wrote:Come come now, don't misunderstand the Sikhs in Jammu.

Like some misunderstand the Sikhs in Kaneda. Only a small minority, not representative of the Sikh nation at large.

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_ ... t+brampton
i swear i thought this was sarcasm , till i saw Jamwal ji's reply
I am always troubled by quasisarcastic statements which not black and white.. Everybody has different criteria of defining sarcastic level of a statement. Some time author hides his/her real intention behind the statement. It is like these guys on street who slap a girl in park and then say it was just a prank.
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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Post by sanjaykumar »

Firstly, Jamwal ji, recognise it is not your job to defend India or Hindus. Your correct response to whining about the assault on the temple needs to be 'deal with it'. India and Hindus are only just at the nascent stage of their power after centuries of humiliation. Again they need to 'deal with it'.


I don't need to establish my liberal credentials with Sikhs, Blacks, Muslims or anyone else. I am in a position where my credentials are tested frequently. I have had Sikhs tell me I have treated them better than people with 'turbans'. Ethiopians have told me they how they have felt slighted, discriminated against and humiliated by mainstream society, Muslims have thanked me, White people have expressed some gratitude (wholly unnecessary) etc etc.

So let me make some suggestions.

Do not assume Northern Hindus will forsake other Hindus for Panjabi speakers. I have more in common with many south Indian Brahmins than I will ever with Sikhs of my complection, language, dietary habits etc. Do NOT call Indians Madrasis or Bhaiya in my presence.

Do not whine about injustices of the Hindu raj, you will hear about Sikh terror and Sikh oppression. Do not smirk about the Hindu caste system, you will have your nose rubbed in Sikh hypocrisy.

I know the vast majority of Sikhs are ordinary folks who just want to get on with their lives. They need to review their policy of silence given the evidence. Yes I know they fear intimidation. THEY need to find a solution. Not me.

Finally, was the post sarcastic? So one post above questions the motives but no comment on the evidence as linked. I rest my case.
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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Post by sankum »

Please such kind of analysis by generalising the behavioural aspect of communities. There are always all kind of people in all communities.

As we become a developed nation in next few decades people will become more irreligious and a more modern outlook will develop.
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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Post by chetak »

sankum wrote:Please such kind of analysis by generalising the behavioural aspect of communities. There are always all kind of people in all communities.

As we become a developed nation in next few decades people will become more irreligious and a more modern outlook will develop.
is there a dichotomy between "religion" and "modern"

are the two mutually exclusive or are they complementary
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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Post by sanjayc »

sankum wrote:Please such kind of analysis by generalising the behavioural aspect of communities. There are always all kind of people in all communities.

As we become a developed nation in next few decades people will become more irreligious and a more modern outlook will develop.
Have Sikhs in Canada become more irreligious now that they are living in a developed country?
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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Post by sankum »

My apologies. Irreligious doesn't mean not having faith but only in conventional sense getting detached and becoming more practical with reduced prejudices due to modern education.
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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Post by m_saini »

^ Modern education has nothing to do with reducing prejudices.
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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Post by sankum »

Modern education just exposes tthe world around. Rest is the persons interpretation to be educated.
Last edited by sankum on 28 Jun 2021 04:19, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Post by rsingh »

sanjayc wrote:
sankum wrote:Please such kind of analysis by generalising the behavioural aspect of communities. There are always all kind of people in all communities.

As we become a developed nation in next few decades people will become more irreligious and a more modern outlook will develop.
Have Sikhs in Canada become more irreligious now that they are living in a developed country?
Nope. Whenever we immigrate to some different land we tend to be more religious. Talking about majority and not about converts. Indians living outside India tend to protect and propagate their religious values. It is well known fact.
Sikhs tend to make Gurudwara for their scattered communities. Then the tend to grow some kind of pride in their religion and history in India. Different communities have slightly different values due to influential people in communities.
Different Guradawara committees have different goal. Their is always fight between groups in Gurudwaras . Uneducated but rich Sikhs tend to have sympathies toward Bhindrawala, pakistani punjabe culture. For them Bhagat Singh was the sole factor behind independence of India. Jatt Sikhs praising songs, bhangra and Sikh regiment is the only good things in India. This image is solidified by current flood of songs. It is also solidified by bollywood films. They hate Gandhi.
Gurdwara in India get easy money and in return these institutions are importing hardline culture from abroad. The Sikh religious prades in the streets are such ridiculous , it looks that Sikh dharma was founded in Canada instead of Punjab. We should be not alarmed. India's growing economic and political clouds will bring these communities in check.
I was one of the first indian to donate for first Gurudwara in Belgium. But there were always fights between parbhandak members. Police was called and it was closed many time by court. Then on one of my visit I saw pictures of Bhindrewala. I stopped going to gurudwra. There were many Afgani Sikh families who were tired of constant fights in Gurudwara. They formed their own neat and clean Gurudwara.
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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Post by sanjaykumar »

Yes it is the ghettoisation of immigrant identity.

Many communities chose to live together. Somalis,Sikhs, Chinese, Filipino etc. Part of it is the strains of systemic racism no doubt.Muslims and Sikhs seem to reinforce and centralise their religious identity. These are communities who LIKE to imagine they are under siege. Of course we all know who the beneficiaries of such paranoia are.

But I have to report my observation that Hindus generally do not ghettoise. My family members were living in overwhelmingly White areas in London on the 1960s. The racism was unbelievable. Of course it relates to education and aspiration. There was a chemist and a ne’er do well who became fabulously wealthy thanks to England’s relatively level playing field.
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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Post by sanjaykumar »

Further to the above. Indeed they see little good in India. At least superficially.

I find the psychology interesting. Some obliquely threaten violence but seem to be genuinely proud of Manmohan Singh. It is noteworthy they don’t dismiss him as a traitor to the panth.

The Sikh psyche is conflicted. I agree they will come to terms with India’s burgeoning power. They won’t admit it but I suspect they are proud of that as well.
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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Post by ManSingh »

Some corrections to the narrative are necessary.

The ghettoization is not a symbol of supremacy or exclusivity. It is a tool for survival. As first immigrants to North America (Canada) in 1897, it was necessary to have a strong cohesion in the community. Though under British rule like India, Canada specifically excluded voting rights and family immigration for south Asians.

You can see a headline "Hindus may not vote in Vancouver" if you scroll down the year 1907 in the below page.

https://www.southasiancanadianheritage. ... in-canada/

You can read about more such racist diatribes below ( if you are interested in history ). One gem "The Hindu is not helping us maintain the standard of living".
https://www.ufv.ca/media/assets/sasi/BC ... final).pdf

The first Gurudwara in Canada was also formed to rally the community( Sikhs plus Hindu ) together and get more rights for immigrants. The right to vote by South Asians ( and Chinese, Japanese ) granted by Canada in 1947 in some case studies is attributed to the contribution of Chief Khalsa Diwan, BC. Gurudwara's have helped rally the community to face collective challenges though they have sadly been used for political control of the community in the recent past. This does not diminish their role in the welfare of the community.

Also, the extreme racism encountered in Canada in early 1900's by South Asian immigrants, made a few immigrants from India move down the west coast to California from BC. This is the first Indian community that was established in the US. This is where Ghadar party was formed by Indian immigrants(majorly sikhs) to overthrow British rule in India.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sikhism_in_Canada

Ghadar party was the original flag bearer of Indian independence way before Gandhi launched Quit India movement. Kartar Singh Sarabha, Bhagat Singh, Ajit Singh, Lala Lajpat Rai etc were all torch bearers of this movement. Link from this forum's favorite paper:

https://www.opindia.com/2018/08/long-be ... dence-day/

It is a widely held Sikh/Punjabi/some portion of Indians belief that Gandhi was late/did not put enough efforts at intervening in Bhagat Singh's trial. As a revolutionary who could trace his inspiration to Ghadar party and subsequently to the first South Asian immigrants to North America, it should be apparently clear why the North American Punjabi community hates Gandhi with a vengeance.

I could go on and on but I will stop here due to lack of time. My motive was to counter the stereo-typing above.
Yayavar
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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Post by Yayavar »

ManSingh wrote:Some corrections to the narrative are necessary.


Ghadar party was the original flag bearer of Indian independence way before Gandhi launched Quit India movement. Kartar Singh Sarabha, Bhagat Singh, Ajit Singh, Lala Lajpat Rai etc were all torch bearers of this movement. Link from this forum's favorite paper:

https://www.opindia.com/2018/08/long-be ... dence-day/

It is a widely held Sikh/Punjabi/some portion of Indians belief that Gandhi was late/did not put enough efforts at intervening in Bhagat Singh's trial. As a revolutionary who could trace his inspiration to Ghadar party and subsequently to the first South Asian immigrants to North America, it should be apparently clear why the North American Punjabi community hates Gandhi with a vengeance.


Ghadar was an important movement of Indians but it was not limited to Punjabis or Sikhs. After all Taraknath or Har Dayal or Ganesh Pingle were not Sikhs nor were the Muslim members. Most were Punjabis but not all - Pingle was not for sure. It is better to remember it as an Indian movement which it was.

it was before Quit India of course. So was 1857 war of independence for that matter. It was even before non-cooperation of 1920. This line of it being before Gandhi this or that is irrelevant and does not add to any positive discourse but just diminishes the efforts of varied group of Indians who were not at cross purposes in their final goal.

Bhagat singh was betrayed, caught and hung by Punjabis too - some of them surely were Sikhs like Khushwant Singh's father. It is a convenient issue to hang around Gandhi - there are lots of issues but this is very emotive for many - but I don't buy that is why NA American punjabi hates Gandhi with a vengeance. If Most of the hate in old time Punjabis comes from the partition time and the belief that Gandhi wanted to save Pakis. Not due to Ghadar. It is not that one sees a throng of Punjabis or Sikhs at Komagata Maru memorial. I was the only Indian there the last 2 times I was there.

In BC I sat in a restaurant and read Gurmukhi papers - the anti India and other hate was amazing. Didn't read a single mention of Gandhi - it is too old. It was about shahidi of khalistanis. Admittedly this was in late ninetees. So the hate or whatever is transformed and Gandhi is most likely irrelevant to the current set of haters amongst the community. Another generation has grown up since then - hopefully they have other things to put their energies into.
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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Post by sanjaykumar »

I am always amused at selective recall and biases in human discourse.

Gandhi was a problem because he did not fully support Bhagat Singh (who was definitely not a Sikh). But Bindewnawala is above reproach. Sikhs aplenty in the Gaddar movement but no mention of Sikhs hailing the British Raj and their collaboration with the firangi. I believe they specifically used to make thanks in the gurdwaras for the colonisers of India.

But history buffs would know more about this.
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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Post by ManSingh »

sanjaykumar wrote:I am always amused at selective recall and biases in human discourse.

Gandhi was a problem because he did not fully support Bhagat Singh (who was definitely not a Sikh). But Bindewnawala is above reproach. Sikhs aplenty in the Gaddar movement but no mention of Sikhs hailing the British Raj and their collaboration with the firangi. I believe they specifically used to make thanks in the gurdwaras for the colonisers of India.

But history buffs would know more about this.
Nope, wrong.

Not to be confused with Akali dal.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akali_movement

The one's happy with and singing paeans to colonialism were British ( governor ) appointed clergies. The Akali movement ( and formation of SGPC ) was to take control back of gurudwara's from British government appointees.
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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Post by OmkarC »

sanjaykumar wrote:Firstly, Jamwal ji, recognise it is not your job to defend India or Hindus. Your correct response to whining about the assault on the temple needs to be 'deal with it'. India and Hindus are only just at the nascent stage of their power after centuries of humiliation. Again they need to 'deal with it'.


I don't need to establish my liberal credentials with Sikhs, Blacks, Muslims or anyone else. I am in a position where my credentials are tested frequently. I have had Sikhs tell me I have treated them better than people with 'turbans'. Ethiopians have told me they how they have felt slighted, discriminated against and humiliated by mainstream society, Muslims have thanked me, White people have expressed some gratitude (wholly unnecessary) etc etc.

So let me make some suggestions.

Do not assume Northern Hindus will forsake other Hindus for Panjabi speakers. I have more in common with many south Indian Brahmins than I will ever with Sikhs of my complection, language, dietary habits etc. Do NOT call Indians Madrasis or Bhaiya in my presence.

Do not whine about injustices of the Hindu raj, you will hear about Sikh terror and Sikh oppression. Do not smirk about the Hindu caste system, you will have your nose rubbed in Sikh hypocrisy.

I know the vast majority of Sikhs are ordinary folks who just want to get on with their lives. They need to review their policy of silence given the evidence. Yes I know they fear intimidation. THEY need to find a solution. Not me.

Finally, was the post sarcastic? So one post above questions the motives but no comment on the evidence as linked. I rest my case.
Well said bro, here in US, have seen how shabbily Paki & Indian muslims treat African black skinned Muslims first hand - totally screwing the concept of so called "umma".. also be assured there are plenty nationalist Hindus in South (if not perhaps as many as in north & west) who share your kind of pan-Hindu identity.
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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Post by rsingh »

Modern leaders of communities try to find means to afiirm their position by giving reasons to do so. They go back to history and select only occasions when communities faced larger adversary . They glorify certain incidents, or persons and highlight them as sole reason for success of some campaign. They are myopic in their vision.
I give a simple example. I know this because I live in this system. Belgian Flanders. They are old clans that populated southern Belgium. This area was always occupied by French, Spain and Holland at different times. They were ruled by outsiders. Only once in the history they won a battle against French. Flamiish culture is Dutch. Still they celebrate that occasion of French defeat with much excitement. Battle is enacted by Flamish self-styled protectors of heritage and Flamis patriots. As a result ordinary flatlands feel that they are different from other Belgians and they deserve special treatment. You can not speak French in Flamish communities. All official work is done in Flemish language. It is prohibited to speak French or right French for official papers. You put innocent sign saying "ouvert" ( OPEN IN FRRNCH), You get a fine of 250 Euro within hour. Their jeel is uncomfortable. Same thing I see with Sikhs. They will never talk about Sikhs being made to crawl in streets by British ( over one English nurse). Sikhs were major part of oppressing British Army. But still they find fault in Ghandi and Gurudev. It's a myopic vision.
When a community gets richer in a group of communities, it start glorify selected historical incidents and ignore most other incidents where whole group was at its best. This is what happening with Sikhs. Land us fertile and most of unskilled layout is exported. Education is a secondary thing. Skilled or unskilled, every body is relatively richer than other Indians. Unskilled rich lot "only me" type of myopic wonderland. With time , next generation get educated and they will come back to motherland.
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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Post by rsingh »

Exactly same with Muslim Kashmiris. They never talk about kashmir gifted to China by Bakistan but they they ( some) want to be part of bigger Bakistan whose army raped their women folks in 1947. Goi spends most in J&K but that is ignored because they know it hat GOI can be blackmailed. Modi ji is trying to break this blackmailing culture . Dilimitation is a great stuff.
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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Post by sanjaykumar »

The Sikh prosperity as a result of superior brains physique culture etc is largely a myth.

What was most distressing to the Sikh about the farm laws was the exposure of the government feedbag tied around the head.

The absurd, I would say criminal subsidies, the waste, the general profligacy of it all. Sure everyone is in on it. The mostly Hindu agents the purveyors of drink the automobile sellers the imported labour the smugglers of more potent dreams the state government.

Modi pulled the blanket off just as everyone was getting cosy.


Punjabis are no longer richer than most Indians. The are close to the mean. There are some who are very wealthy. It may just be because it is flaunted. In true local style. Gujaratis even when comfortable will rarely buy a Range Rover. It’s the culture.
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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Post by sanjaykumar »

Just an explanation of this pan-Hindu business. Like Nehru, I had to make a discovery of India. I naturally entered through the sciences and was amazed at the achievements of the Hindus. Even more notable was the absence of any acknowledgement in the English common discourse.

Further, there is always a natural affinity for the underdog. And the Hindu is the ultimate such animal.

Although religion doesn’t attract me, I was astounded that Hindus have not gone around killing for their god. I realised their speculations into Vedanta can actually be interpreted as a secular humanism. Exceedingly difficult to practice but certainly something befitting of the human mind. Makes all other religious ideas resemble the ravings of lunatics.

Thus I have rational reasons for wishing Hindus well as a civilisation.
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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Post by ArjunPandit »

I am surprised at the little discussion on the Drone attack in Jammu. Few thoughts on it.
1. JK terrorism has always been playground of global terror tactics, hostage taking, suicide attacks, IEDs, landmines, HVT hits (brigadier), VBIED, kalashnikov, hideouts in civilian areas with bunkers in homes, area occupation (kargil), backed up by military (arty strikes by pak or blurred lines b/w BAT/PA/LET), subversion of local democratic instis (murder of sarpanches, burning of assembly, or recent killings of police), ethnic cleansing (KPs) aided by mosques, claims of azadi, stone pelting all have been trying by the other side. So it was just a matter of time before drones made into the battle field. THey have been in news for some time, especially for dropping weapons recon.
2. Last time a new tactic was tried out (VBIED) the govt reacted strongly possibly due to casualties involved too. My sense is that this time the reaction will be muted due to the low casualties
3. This was just a probing tactic, more worrisome coz it was in night ...if we are thinking this was just some attack in itself, I do not think so. WIth the kind of skills china possesses and pakis are aspiring to in this area..mind you paxis are trying hard to come in AI. Imagine 20 such drones coupled with AI can wreak havoc. Will not speak of such tactics in an open forum but they can remove the culpability too.
4. There is no defence against it. We cant stop against birds, or small micro drones. Even they can stop a military operation for few crucial minutes..giving the terrorists critical advantage.
5. Remember this can be done anywhere in india, in fact much more easily. The only way to reduce them is the way we have reduced terror attacks: increase the costs. While indian military clamours for high end expensive weapons, these will be a nuisance, esp while fighting with pakistan and china.
6. There will be resumption of soviet war philosophies with lost cost or simple & effective weapons in large numbers used to inflict heavy damage on enemy. Waiting for 100 predators will be pointless. 500 rustom 1s, can do similar jobs. Make cheap, make fast and and move fast. While high end perfect weapons are great but we need to induct such weapons.
7. In any case, we need to make our anger known by using artillery. This business of time and place of our choosing gives enemy an easy pass. Raise stakes use pinaka, dhanush, ATAGS, broaden theaters. Inflict damage till the desired behaviour is achieved. Few months of ceasefire and pakis are back to their usual.
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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Post by chetak »

sankum wrote:Modern education just exposes tthe world around. Rest is the persons interpretation to be educated.
old chap,

we understand what you want to say but you haven't yet rationalized your thoughts clearly.

Having stepped in it, the best recourse for you, momentarily, would be the dictum "silence is golden"

So, withdraw, reflect, reformulate, and then re enter before matters really start to unravel.

just my two paise
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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Post by RajaRudra »

ArjunPandit wrote:I am surprised at the little discussion on the Drone attack in Jammu. Few thoughts on it.

5. Remember this can be done anywhere in india, in fact much more easily. The only way to reduce them is the way we have reduced terror attacks: increase the costs. While indian military clamours for high end expensive weapons, these will be a nuisance, esp while fighting with pakistan and china.
Just like the first terrorist sent by Pakistan across the border to do terrorism, this drone attack yesterday is also significant and in a way pakistan found a way to do the low cost , high benefit long sustaining war in this.

If the penalty is not extracted (that too ASAP) , this can be considered as a new chapter in the long history of India - Pakistan low decibel war.
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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Post by Deans »

ArjunPandit wrote:I am surprised at the little discussion on the Drone attack in Jammu.
Arjun ji, Indeed, a subject that requires much more discussion. Ironically my book (written at the end of 2018 and set in 2022) had Indian SF
carrying out a similar strike in Peshawar airport to cripple an AWAC (a sub 1 kg explosive, hitting the radome of the AWAC would do it).
My thoughts:

1. This should be a good wake up call (in case Arz-Armenia war wasn't). If does not get us to accelerate our drone and anti-drone program, nothing will. We've learnt a lesson with 0 casualties and damage.
2. There are low cost defenses against drones - From jammers, to an old fashioned machine gun / ZSU 23-4, shooting them down and restricting
civilian movement around IAF assets.
3. Indian private sector must be incentivized to get seriously involved in drone tech and production.
4. We should start sending drones over POK - use them as spotters for an arty strike at terror camps. More than anything else, that will be a deterrent against drone use (just as our forceful response to LOC firing resulted in Pak proposing and sticking to a ceasefire).
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