J&K Union Territory-2019

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venkat_r
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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Postby venkat_r » 06 Sep 2019 14:17

Though going off topic about Afg in this thread

India generally does not use Military unless there are objectives or outcomes clearly defined, and putting Indian Army in Afg currently does not have an objective

It is one thing to have trainers and advisors in Afg and have civilian relations helping build Afg, and totally different ball game to have army. Also who is going to foot this bill? Even if we had the logistics not sure India is ready to spend the money for such adventures. It is ok for USA to spend 48 B per year in Afg, can India even afford 10% of that? We can argue that it is going to be cheaper for India, but wars cost a lot of money and there is a reason. That also gives a glimpse of the might of USA, economic and military and how they buy their way through, another topic, another day. Even USA is trying to get out of that war and not sure why India should rush in here.

Money would be well spent on Afghan reconstruction or infrastructure projects like we are doing now and also on supporting Balooch or other good causes.

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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Postby pankajs » 06 Sep 2019 14:22

nits wrote:We need to use Afghanistan Logistic problem to our benefit; currently US is dependent on Pak / Iran and so will be India if it decide to go there...what we are forgetting is POK (Wakhan Corrdor - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wakhan_Corridor) has border with Afganistan and if we get POK back all such logistic problem and dependecy on Pak / iran goes away...

We need to drum about it and get Us support that getting POK back is not just in India's interest but theirs too...

1. Check the geography of Galgit-Baltisthan and Wakhan corridor and suggest a path. We must make it a habit of consulting terrain maps when me suggest GEO-political solutions.

2. Then factor in how long it took the super-efficient Chinese to build the Karakoram highway in similar terrain as the baseline.

3. Then consider the Chinese super-efficiency in building around Abottabad lake.

4. The factor in the "Indian" efficiency.

5. AFTER a path to Afghanistan has been determined calculate how long a single lane road to Afghanistan will take to build keeping in mind Pts 2 to 4.

Oh, before that do calculate how long it will take for India to GRAB the land through which the road will pass. I hope no one thinks that the bakis or the Americans are going to hand us the land on a platter to do as we please.

Lastly, America needs Bakistan to keep Indian unsettled. It is not going to turn on bakistan as folks seem to think. OTOH, all America needs from Bakistan/Bunnies is that no plots are hatched against West from Afghanistan. Our notion of what is in American interest is very different from theirs views.

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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Postby pankajs » 06 Sep 2019 14:57

RKumar wrote:India will not send military to Afg to fight the Taliban. At the end, Taliban has fair number of locals who has access and knowledge of the geography. Lets not repeat the Sri Lankan mistake. What Afg need, Afg army should capture all sorts of weapons and destroy those by burning, melting or exploding. All weapon must be strictly managed via police and Army - simply no more private own weapons.

It will take 2 years before you see the improvement but it is doable. Weapons are around for so long that they think it is part of their culture but if they want to save their children and future generations, they have to do it. Poison has to be taken out to heal the body.

AK-47 replicas will be continue to be made in border areas of Bakistan and funded via drugs trade. Weapons will continue to flow into Afghanistan. Nothing will change on the ground.

No matter what is done in Afghanistan nothing is going to change. That is because the problem does not lie in Afghanistan. It lies in Bakistan!

The Russians or the Americans weren't defeated by bunnies fighting alone but the bunnies backed by Bakistan with RR, Hospitals, Medicine, Food, shelter, weapons, training, etc. Hell there are folks who claim the bakis regulars fought alongside with bunnies. Till bakistan has the ability and the freedom to interfere in Afghanistan it is not going to allow anyone to succeed in Afghanistan. Folks who suggest a couple of divisions will be sufficient to pacify Afghanistan don't know what they are talking about.

As the bakistanis themselves state very proudly, the path to Afghanistan lies through Islamabad. It was true for the Americans and it will prove true for India too should it enter that theater unthinkingly. All other paths ignore the stark ground realities. IF India has to confront bunnies they have to do it in Slumbad/Pindi.

BTW, one interested in this line of thought should read the book "The Wrong Enemy: America in Afghanistan" by Carlotta Gall. I myself haven't read the book but have heard her talk about it in a video posted by one of the DC think-tanks.

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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Postby Rsatchi » 06 Sep 2019 15:09

pankajs wrote:
RKumar wrote:India will not send military to Afg to fight the Taliban. At the end, Taliban has fair number of locals who has access and knowledge of the geography. Lets not repeat the Sri Lankan mistake. What Afg need, Afg army should capture all sorts of weapons and destroy those by burning, melting or exploding. All weapon must be strictly managed via police and Army - simply no more private own weapons.

It will take 2 years before you see the improvement but it is doable. Weapons are around for so long that they think it is part of their culture but if they want to save their children and future generations, they have to do it. Poison has to be taken out to heal the body.

AK-47 replicas will be continue to be made in border areas of Bakistan and funded via drugs trade. Weapons will continue to flow into Afghanistan. Nothing will change on the ground.

No matter what is done in Afghanistan nothing is going to change. That is because the problem does not lie in Afghanistan. It lies in Bakistan!

The Russians or the Americans weren't defeated by bunnies fighting alone but the bunnies backed by Bakistan with RR, Hospitals, Medicine, Food, shelter, weapons, training, etc. Hell there are folks who claim the bakis regulars fought alongside with bunnies. Till bakistan has the ability and the freedom to interfere in Afghanistan it is not going to allow anyone to succeed in Afghanistan. Folks who suggest a couple of divisions will be sufficient to pacify Afghanistan don't know what they are talking about.

As the bakistanis themselves state very proudly, the path to Afghanistan lies through Islamabad. It was true for the Americans and it will prove true for India too should it enter that theater unthinkingly. All other paths ignore the stark ground realities. IF India has to confront bunnies they have to do it in Slumbad/Pindi.

Part of the solutions may lie in 'Balkanization of Pa-istan' so to speak if the road to Afghanistan is through Isloo. :D
But is that possible/feasible/and moreover Western powers allow/ XI will allow :roll:
Afghans have never accepted the Durand Line.

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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Postby pankajs » 06 Sep 2019 15:25

Does it mean short of war can Indian do nothing? For that we have to define our objectives first.

1. IF the objective is to bring peace to Afghanistan then an "Aar paar ki ladai" with Bakistan is a per-condition. Till the TSPA survives in its current form it is not going to allow anyone except itself to dictate terms in Afghanistan. It will also not allow a neutral regime. Unfair did is right to that extent.

2. IF the objective is to bleed and weaken bakistan further and keep it busy on other fronts away from India and Kashmir, there are other ways to achieve that that does not involve having any substantial boots on the ground in Afghanistan.
a. NA + Iran + Money inside Afghanistan
b. Balochistan
c. Pakhtun movements
d. Sindhi nationalism
e. Mohajirs

etc.

This is a version of war by 1000 cuts. With the passing of each year bakistan will continue to weaken till one day it collapses under the burden of maintaining TSPA.

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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Postby pankajs » 06 Sep 2019 15:28

Rsatchi wrote:Part of the solutions may lie in 'Balkanization of Pa-istan' so to speak if the road to Afghanistan is through Isloo. :D
But is that possible/feasible/and moreover Western powers allow/ XI will allow :roll:
Afghans have never accepted the Durand Line.

My thoughts captured in my previous post.

IF bakistan doesn't force his hands, Modi will take the "2" route.

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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Postby Deans » 06 Sep 2019 17:13

Atmavik wrote:^^ this dumbing of consumer goods is already underway. from watching a few paki shows it looks like the most popular item are shampoo sachets. maybe for beards ?


Nandakumar & Atmavik ji, Indian pharma products are the most popular in terms of profit per kg. In consumer products, Indian products are preferred to the same brand made in Pakistan (e.g. Fair & Lovely cream). Gilette blades are (or were, in my time) popular too The logistics are not difficult, a 20 or 40 ft container is shipped to Chabahar (through Dubai if you want to hide country of origin) , that goes by rail to the Iran-Afghan border and (if new road projects are used), by road close to the Af-Pak border. The most popular item is electronics smuggled from Dubai, but India has not skin the the game there (except if we sponsor a warlord by letting him use our logistics route and our training facilities).

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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Postby Trikaal » 06 Sep 2019 20:06

Deans wrote:Nandakumar & Atmavik ji, Indian pharma products are the most popular in terms of profit per kg. In consumer products, Indian products are preferred to the same brand made in Pakistan (e.g. Fair & Lovely cream). Gilette blades are (or were, in my time) popular too The logistics are not difficult, a 20 or 40 ft container is shipped to Chabahar (through Dubai if you want to hide country of origin) , that goes by rail to the Iran-Afghan border and (if new road projects are used), by road close to the Af-Pak border. The most popular item is electronics smuggled from Dubai, but India has not skin the the game there (except if we sponsor a warlord by letting him use our logistics route and our training facilities).


Dumping Indian products in Pakistan is already happening via Dubai(68%). Pakistan-Dubai trade in consumer goods is much higher than India-Pak trade, guess why :rotfl: Dumping through Afghanistan would only mean adding additional steps unnecessarily without any increase in profits.

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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Postby UlanBatori » 06 Sep 2019 20:26

MAD means bijnej, hain? This is REALLY unprecedented.

Shehla Rashid Booked For Sedition for Accusing Army of Human Rights Abuses in Kashmir

Now the traitors are being denied their phundamental rite to lie? What's the point of keeping JNU open after this, hain? The Hindu? :shock:

special cell of Delhi Police for her comments about alleged human rights violations in Jammu and Kashmir during the past month’s lockdown imposed after the repeal of special status.

An FIR has been registered against her under sections 124-A (sedition), 153A (promoting enmity), 153 (provocation with intent to cause riot), 504 (Intentional insult with intent to provoke breach of the peace) and 505 (statements conducing to public mischief) of the Indian Penal Code for allegedly tweeting false information about army raids in the Kashmir Valley based on a complaint filed by Supreme Court lawyer Alakh Alok Srivastava.

... Army had rejected her allegations regarding the situation in Jammu and Kashmir and termed them "baseless". "Allegations levelled by Shehla Rashid are baseless and rejected. Such unverified and fake news are spread by inimical elements and organisations to incite unsuspecting population," the Army stated.

But Rashid said she stands by her comments about alleged human rights violations and will give proof if the Indian Army initiates an inquiry into her claims.
Asked about evidence for her controversial claims, she said, "I will give the evidence when the Indian Army constitutes an inquiry. I have given you my statement. Has the Army initiated any inquiry?"
"All I have said is based on authentic conversations with people who have come from Kashmir and have absolutely no reason to lie. I have given a lot of statements not just one. People are [b]running out of LPG cylinders, cooking gas in Kashmir[/b]," she said. {yes, that does put a crimp on plans to throw them, doesn't it? Note the Freudian slip: she is worried about running out of CYLINDERS!!! Do ppl eat gas cylinders I wonder}
The former Vice President of the Jawaharlal Nehru University Students' Union said if the Army initiates an inquiry, she will depose before them and "will give them the particulars of the incidents... where they have happened".


Is the JNU students' Union entirely PaKCashMori?

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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Postby UlanBatori » 06 Sep 2019 20:35

Where does this leave Pinnarayi? Arundhoti Roy? PANKAJ MISHRA? Sagarika Ghose?

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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Postby SBajwa » 06 Sep 2019 20:57

Trikaal wrote:
Cain Marko wrote:Ultimately folks have to make up their mind. Bhai chahtey Kya ho?

Is Akhand Bharat and global power center mission just talk or something more?

If yes, how do you plan to achieve it?
A. Screw Afghanistan deployment and do Aarpaar ladhai when time is right. If it ever is. Or
B. Screw Afghanistan deployment and do Dishum dishum..Balakote type scenario. They hit one and India hits them back etc. Ad nauseam. Or
C. Get in Afghanistan, take the fight away from home, squeeze Tsp, encourage, bla and pakhtuns forces?

Note that not engaging in Afghanistan will mean that tsp will consolidate it's position and therefore be in a better position to engage India with jehadi groups of all sorts. It will also mean a deeper and more meaningful partnership with the US. It will also mean a strategic footprint that extends to CA and ME. this will naturally mean a more robust military..

Yes it will be a strain, physically and financially. But at least the latter can be mitigated. Deals could be struck where a good part of the cost is taken up be allies. The US, AFG, Iran, NATO etc... Military equipment should be had at strategic prices. India acts as a bulwark against terror for the whole world. Against cheeni expansion in the oceans and elsewhere. And thereby establishes itself as the go-to power for many of the strategic routes that emanate from the Afghani region.

Just some thoughts....


Again I must ask, do do what and how?

When US and Soviet Union, the 2 superpowers with the biggest MICs and a global combat experience failed in Afghanistan, what makes u think that we, a country that has almost never in its entire history operated beyond it's borders, will succeed? And that too when our supply lines would be at the mercy of our staunchest enemy? And even if we manage to get inside Afghanistan, what makes u think we can stop Pakistan from gaining 'Strategic Depth'? Even with the presence of NATO, bombing the s**t out of Afghais and Pakis, did Pakis never let go of their Strategic Assets in Afghanistan.

And COST? What makes you think US will foot the bill of Indian deployment in Afghanistan? Did they ever offer? And do u seriously think a person like Trump, who is perfectly willing to run roughshod over strategic partnerships cultivated carefully over decades just to sell some luxury bikes, will pay billions of dollars to u to poke Pakistan in the back?

I am sorry, but in the current scenario, deploying in Afghanistan makes no sense whatsoever. We are much better off supporting pro-India and anti-Pak afghanis to cause mayhem in Pak and at the same time, use international forums to ensure Taliban doesn't overwhelm Pro-Indian afghanis after US withdrawal.




USA and USSR operated hundreds of miles away from their core and had some vested national interests which they achieved. They were never in a danger of losing their country, culture or economy. India is! And this is our own neighborhood., if not for India then who else will do this job? Someone must bell the cat and there is none other than India who can do!!!

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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Postby manjgu » 06 Sep 2019 21:03

Sbajwa ...with due respect, to tackle Pakistan we need not go to Afghanistan. If there is political will, we can do it right sitting in our own house as Modi ji is slowly showing. USSR didnt operate hundreds of miles away fyi. Isnt Afghnistan not hundreds of miles away from our core? Both USA and USSR were economically and militarily much stronger. We must be real about our capacity, capability.

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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Postby williams » 06 Sep 2019 22:21

Taking POK is the next logical step. That is one of the reasons Pakis are indulging in huge hue and cry and the Chinese are trying to support it. We need to obviously augment our conventional strength by a lot to get ready for such an operation. Apart from that, we need hard intelligence on the nuke nude theory, stomach for the Chinese to get involved against us during the operation and diplomatic consequences of such an action by the western powers. If we get some airbases in Afghanistan that will be the icing on the cake. I would say we can promise air support in Afghanistan provided Uncle can part with their airbases and if they can hoodwink any further operations we conduct to integrate POK.

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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Postby SBajwa » 06 Sep 2019 22:25

some more points!!

1. Reconstruction of Afghanistan has been going on since Lal Bahadur Shastri's time.
Even under Najibullah in 1970s. We funded many hospitals in Afghanistan (my uncle led a team of doctors in Afghanistan for one such hospital in Kabul which was later used by Taliban as an ammunition dump)., trained many doctors, educational institutes, etc. Every time we spend money to construct Afghanistan Bakistan/Taliban comes back and uses them for their own benefit.

2. IPKF in Lanka was a disaster because our politicians under Rajiv Gandhi and RAW were playing both sides., for example informing the LTTE of the Jaffna raid and murdering own soldiers and many other such gaffe's . Please read about this before commenting!! There are hundreds of other such blunders from top leadership like Morarji desai telling General Zia that their Spies are operating right at Kahuta from the closest barber shop.

3. USA can be convinced to fund the Indian forces in Afghanistan along with the equipment currently sitting there.

4. Even if 1 division and 1-2 Air force squadron's are stationed in Afghanistan it will broke the Baki back for good!!

5. Afghanistan will be excellent place to battle test our newly built desi military hardware.

Will we always be bitten by the Prithviraj Chauhan's syndrome? rule at Delhi and fight battles at Panipat (30 miles from Delhi).
etc....

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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Postby Trikaal » 06 Sep 2019 22:55

SBajwa wrote:
USA and USSR operated hundreds of miles away from their core and had some vested national interests which they achieved. They were never in a danger of losing their country, culture or economy. India is! And this is our own neighborhood., if not for India then who else will do this job? Someone must bell the cat and there is none other than India who can do!!!


What threat? If Hungry, crazy Jihadis coming over the border are enough to make us lose our country then we have already lost! And there is no reason to believe that India deploying in Afghanistan will reduce Suicidal Abduls. On the contrary, it would increase Pakistan's pushing of Jihadis here to increase our costs and make us pull out of Afghanistan. Also we must not forget that we are NOT a superpower. We have neither the economy nor the military capability to support overseas troops. Rather tan rushing headlong into the Afghani quagmire, we are much better off harassing Pakistan from the comfort of our home, while at the same time increasing our economic heft enough to crush Pakistan without ever actually gong to war. Article 370 and the response of world governments (not the media and desperate opposition worldwide) showcases he power of money. The same countries that couldn't resist to lecture and scold India on Kashmir are today parroting our MoFA's words about bilateral and internal matter(depending on the level of dependency). If you want to take PoK in a similar manner, you will need to be many times stronger than today.

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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Postby Trikaal » 06 Sep 2019 23:04

SBajwa wrote:

3. USA can be convinced to fund the Indian forces in Afghanistan along with the equipment currently sitting there.

4. Even if 1 division and 1-2 Air force squadron's are stationed in Afghanistan it will broke the Baki back for good!!

5. Afghanistan will be excellent place to battle test our newly built desi military hardware.

Will we always be bitten by the Prithviraj Chauhan's syndrome? rule at Delhi and fight battles at Panipat (30 miles from Delhi).
etc....


3. If you think you can convince DT, a person who is ready to sacrifice the closest alliances like US-Canada and US-EU just so that he can reduce the deficit on a currency he can literally print at will, to actually pay us to fight a war which is no longer of any consequence to US except H&D, then ......

4. If only US knew the secret sauce

Better to be Prithviraj Chauhan than Mohammad Tughlaq

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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Postby Suraj » 06 Sep 2019 23:26

Trikaal wrote:Written and official work has always been conducted in Urdu. As for their dialect, it's authentic. There is a slight difference in dialect of KPs and KMs, with Sanskrit words dominating KP's Koshur. But the differences are minor.

This sounds completely nuts to me. Where's the Kashmiriyat in doing all business in Urdu ? Is the use of Urdu something that's only been the case under the Abdullahs, or was that the case under the Maharajas too ?
Trikaal wrote:Muslims have ruled the state for a significant part of its History which is why Persian and Urdu have been state languages. Koshur isn't really written at all. It is only an oral language, atleast today. I am not aware of any literary written works in Koshur, though there are many folk lores and songs that are passed down orally. Whatever is written is in Sanskrit or Urdu afaik.

This doesn't say anything about Kashmir having any sort of unique culture that's not maintained by the KPs - the local ethnic majority uses an invaders language and doesn't even use the language of the land whose culture they claim to own.
Trikaal wrote:Radicalization has mostly destroyed what used to be a very distinctive regional identity. Exodus of KPs completely destroyed the social fabric of the place. Now it's just another cesspool of poverty, brainwashing and terrorism. A hard reset is needed, and removal of Art 370 is just the first step in that direction.

This is not getting adequate attention. It's clear that the Kashmir valley itself is just an outpost of TSP culture right now, and yet the opposition to the Art 370 abrogation has been argued along the lines of destruction of a local culture... which on the other hand has been preserved in New Delhi and elsewhere by the exiled KP population rather than the current residents.

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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Postby A_Gupta » 06 Sep 2019 23:46

Not a new topic. From 2013.
https://www.jstor.org/stable/23527257?s ... b_contents

Abstract
The term Kashmiriyat has come to signify a centuries-old indigenous secularism of Kashmir. However, it is of comparatively recent origin, first used in the mid-1970s. This article throws light on the factors which necessitated its creation and how its use has evolved to signify the majoritarian inflections of that secular ideal. By acknowledging the historical context of the term itself, we may be able to attend to the subtle implication of our exercise to retrospectively apply it to earlier historical contexts.

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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Postby A_Gupta » 06 Sep 2019 23:47

1995
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10. ... ode=ccsa20
Kashmiriyat: The vitality of Kashmiri identity
Balraj Puri

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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Postby Supratik » 07 Sep 2019 00:41

There was a script for Kashmiri. It is called Sharda. Don't know if it is still there or extinct.

Kashmiriyat was/is bs invented by Nehruvian Marxists. The history of Kashmir following arrival of Muslim rule has been mostly brutal with I believe 7 purges/massacres of Hindus.

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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Postby SBajwa » 07 Sep 2019 00:56

The first forced emigration of Kashmiris was by Sikandar Shah also known as Sikandar But Shikan (destroyer of the idols)
1389-1413.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sikandar_Shah_Miri

This temple before gunpowder was burned down by him but still could not destroy it.

Image

The seventh forced emigration of Kashmiris was in 1989. The slogan was Raliyav, Galigav or Paliyav aka join us (convert), die or leave.

Image

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C4%81rtanda

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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Postby UlanBatori » 07 Sep 2019 01:05

Hate to intrude into these dreams of conquest in PORK, but the arrest of Sheila Rashid was IMO a MASSIVE statement by MAD. I wouldn't have expected it, but I can't say I am unhappy...

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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Postby krithivas » 07 Sep 2019 01:24

^^ + The surely tightening noose around Yasin Malik.

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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Postby vijayk » 07 Sep 2019 01:33

Send that scum Rana Ayyub to jail too. She is an agent of MI6

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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Postby Jay » 07 Sep 2019 01:33

I still do not see any point in India maintaining a credible fighting force in Afghanistan just because we want to keep the Pakis occupied on their Western flank. We all have been hearing/reading this "fear of afghan jihadi" since the late '80s and my contention is if Pakis could not do it back then, there is a fat chance they will do it now, especially when we are much stronger, pakis being much weaker, with Chinese intrusions between us and them as part of their grand plans but mostly most Afghan factions themselves won't leave their land only to die in a foreign piece if land of kaffirs.

On the other hand, if we deploy our forces, we are looking at 10k-30k troops, costs associated with their deployment, and it will be a redo of IPKF but much much worse. Opposing foreigners is the 'raison detre' of every Afghani, regardless of clans/tribes/affiliations. Imagine the fight on our hands when these afghans will be supported by PakiS, and Chinese. Pakis will easily show us as the bogeyman to score influence from Afghans, and Money/Material from China, which will be more than happy to finance the Paki goal.

Our visible military presence in Afghanistan should only be to protect our assets in the land and anything more is just a waste of time, manpower, and materials. Folks need to cool down on this 'Akhand Bharath' outlook and talk about our civilizational reach and re-adjustment. If we play our cards right, Pakis will inflict the pain on themselves and will present us an opportunity within the next decade to nullify their nuisance once and for all.

If I am an Indian diplomat, I will wait this year out to see who emerges out of Afghan-Us talks and pump them up with 'unjust history' of Durand line and let them do their magic on pakis while we lite the match stick inside Balochistan.

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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Postby Bart S » 07 Sep 2019 01:36

UlanBatori wrote:Hate to intrude into these dreams of conquest in PORK, but the arrest of Sheila Rashid was IMO a MASSIVE statement by MAD. I wouldn't have expected it, but I can't say I am unhappy...


I think that it may backfire. There are dozens of deluded JNU types to replace her, and it will simply make her a martyr which she can further milk. She is best ignored and dismissed as someone with zero credibility, and I am sure that she has enough fraudulent activities going on that allow for her (or her credibility) to be taken down in a Tarun Tejpal type sting operation.

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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Postby UlanBatori » 07 Sep 2019 01:39

But a civil suit (like what was brought by the SC ambu-chaser) can put a crimp in their enthusiasm, hain? Now they have to think for maybe a microsecond b4 lying? This is not Polis hunting down secessionists: it is a complaint by the neighbors of the stink emanating from her. Subtle difference.

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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Postby banrjeer » 07 Sep 2019 01:53

manjgu wrote:Sbajwa ...with due respect, to tackle Pakistan we need not go to Afghanistan. If there is political will, we can do it right sitting in our own house as Modi ji is slowly showing. USSR didnt operate hundreds of miles away fyi. Isnt Afghnistan not hundreds of miles away from our core? Both USA and USSR were economically and militarily much stronger. We must be real about our capacity, capability.


I agree on not deploying to Af and indirect means is OK for now, But let's remember it was part of Ranjit Singhs kingdom, Central Asia up to western china and beyond till Japan was massively influenced by Indic culture and finance for almost a 1000 years and Pathans ruled as far away as bdesh etc so no legitimacy about core etc are needed.

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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Postby vijayk » 07 Sep 2019 01:55

Bart S wrote:
UlanBatori wrote:Hate to intrude into these dreams of conquest in PORK, but the arrest of Sheila Rashid was IMO a MASSIVE statement by MAD. I wouldn't have expected it, but I can't say I am unhappy...


I think that it may backfire. There are dozens of deluded JNU types to replace her, and it will simply make her a martyr which she can further milk. She is best ignored and dismissed as someone with zero credibility, and I am sure that she has enough fraudulent activities going on that allow for her (or her credibility) to be taken down in a Tarun Tejpal type sting operation.


In REC (NI) Warangal RSU was like this ... aligned with Naxals/sympathetic profs to intimidate all the students. Naxals killed a senior police office in 85. Police got lists of all students/sympathizers, closed college, went to villages/towns of students, arrested them there and slapped charges. The parents were aghast at what they were doing in college. Some students were beaten to pulp by their parents. In 3 months, RSU disappeared from RECW after controlling the RECW for 20 years.
Last edited by vijayk on 07 Sep 2019 02:51, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Postby UlanBatori » 07 Sep 2019 02:44

This may be the start of a major cleanup of JNU. Present Student Union neta is no better than this one. He's the one who claimed that Cash More does not need development because the Hyooman Indicators were already so fabulous there vs. rest of India.

Think about the smartness of that statement. JNU should be closed simply because of the biss-boor quality of education that they impart.

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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Postby Cain Marko » 07 Sep 2019 03:14

SBajwa wrote:USA and USSR operated hundreds of miles away from their core and had some vested national interests which they achieved. They were never in a danger of losing their country, culture or economy. India is! And this is our own neighborhood., if not for India then who else will do this job? Someone must bell the cat and there is none other than India who can do!!!

Sir, this was my thinking too.... Why is India so shy about taking it's proper place in region, let alone the world.

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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Postby mmasand » 07 Sep 2019 03:14

Bart S wrote:
UlanBatori wrote:Hate to intrude into these dreams of conquest in PORK, but the arrest of Sheila Rashid was IMO a MASSIVE statement by MAD. I wouldn't have expected it, but I can't say I am unhappy...


I think that it may backfire. There are dozens of deluded JNU types to replace her, and it will simply make her a martyr which she can further milk. She is best ignored and dismissed as someone with zero credibility, and I am sure that she has enough fraudulent activities going on that allow for her (or her credibility) to be taken down in a Tarun Tejpal type sting operation.


Agree +100. Rather than going after her and making a martyr of her, let her live in her cocoon and write her fictional stories into oblivion. Eventually she loses credibility and is seen as a radical who will be banished into self exile. You cannot clamp down on dissent and contrarian views irrespective of how vile and fictional they may be, it's that very FoE that gives us immunity and credibility on the world stage.

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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Postby Cain Marko » 07 Sep 2019 03:17

Deans wrote:
Cain Marko wrote:Deansji, can you post a link to the paper if it is open access?


Only a 2 page summary (dealing with Pak) is open source. I've been asked not to share the rest of it (50 odd pages). Suffice to say parts of it have been taken seriously by our national security establishment. The link is here.

https://swarajyamag.com/world/a-new-non-diplomatic-approach-for-pakistan

I used to do business back in the 90s with an Afghan, with links to one of the warlords (anti taliban) who would smuggle consumer products into Afghanistan. Got a good insight into how this works. Also visited Chabahar.

Thanks much, very informative work. Kudos

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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Postby Supratik » 07 Sep 2019 04:16

That is not going to work. These are the OGW, thoroughly brainwashed not just someone with an opinion. If you leave them alone they are going to create another generation of OGW. You have to do what you have to do and Doval knows it. Cycle needs to be broken.

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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Postby Jay » 07 Sep 2019 04:57

Cain Marko wrote:Sir, this was my thinking too.... Why is India so shy about taking it's proper place in region, let alone the world.


Cain ji, how/what do you envision is India’s place in the region? Even if Akhand Bharath is your vision, going through AFG will not help the cause. Us going to AFG will only unite AFG, PAK, and China against us. Two out of these three entities should be kept busy with each other to get a desired outcome for us. Imagine AFG and PAK against each other’s throat because of Pashtuns, and their border and cheen getting caught in between while we pour gasoline on this flame from all around.

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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Postby Roop » 07 Sep 2019 05:07

Supratik wrote:These are the OGW, thoroughly brainwashed ...


OGW??

Re. deployment of Indian military forces in Afghanistan: I agree that we should avoid it if possible, however the decision is not IMO the obvious "slam dunk" no-brainer that some here are portraying it as. SBajwa has raised numerous excellent reasons why we should deploy in Afghanistan and his points have not really been refuted. I simply think that, all things considered, it is best avoided because of the risks involved.

My point here is simply that there are also risks in not going to Afg (assuming the Americans withdraw completely and leave the Pakis to spread there like a cancer). What a would-be great power like India should do (has to do) is balance the risks of one approach against the risks of the other, make a decision and follow through with it knowing that no matter what approach is taken, there are going to some bad things that happen. The bad things that will come from India staying out of Afg are loss of influence, spread of Paki cancer and they (Pakis) establishing their infamous "strategic depth" there. Once they do that, I think we will all be unpleasantly surprised at how easily other "powers" will start sucking up to Pakis politically and diplomatically -- Russia, China, Turkey and probably Qatar will be willing to kiss Paki's azs simply because they (Pakis) will have demonstrated strategic will and the willingness to take risks to assure their own national interests.

IMO there are no simple and obvious solutions here.

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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Postby Cain Marko » 07 Sep 2019 05:26

Jay wrote:
Cain Marko wrote:Sir, this was my thinking too.... Why is India so shy about taking it's proper place in region, let alone the world.


Cain ji, how/what do you envision is India’s place in the region? Even if Akhand Bharath is your vision, going through AFG will not help the cause. Us going to AFG will only unite AFG, PAK, and China against us. Two out of these three entities should be kept busy with each other to get a desired outcome for us. Imagine AFG and PAK against each other’s throat because of Pashtuns, and their border and cheen getting caught in between while we pour gasoline on this flame from all around.

Still trying to game this scenario Jay Saar. But off hand I'd expect that such a move would be pre conditioned on the Afghanis initiating it, and they will considering the Taliban threat and encouragement from the US.
Indian troops and air assets will have the primary mandate of securing major centers of power, communications routes etc. And to support Afghani, and baloch tribesmen to conduct crossborder raids into Pakistani areas and camps. Basically take the fight into tsp via non state actors, the same shit that tsp has done for ages. Wear them down and keep them engaged. Get the Balochis and Pashtuns to get back what is rightfully theirs to begin with. Heat up the borders with artillery and cover fire as and when needed.

I don't see why the Afghanis will turn against India. Especially if they invited us to begin with. From the northern alliance days till today, India has considerable support there. Point is all of this will be squandered if the Taliban and Tsp get a free hand. And then India will face the music at home.

Better to get in and make a pigs breakfast of it from the inside. Trying to do it from a distance has never worked. It is too little and too far. The pakistanis have far better access and control along with the bunnies of that region and India will be left a mere spectator as Afghanistan capitulates. as it did in the 90s, probly much faster this time, and the tsp goons start salivating thinking of India next.
Last edited by Cain Marko on 07 Sep 2019 05:30, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Postby fanne » 07 Sep 2019 05:30

why cant we go back to doing in AFg what we did before 2011. We did not have a standing army there, but enough 'advisors' and supporters in Northern Alliance to keep tsp busy. That time west was still aligned with TSP (yes shri clinton ji had fires some cruise missile at the goat shed)...
There is at least 50% AFG people (mostly non pashtuns) and 50% land area that is totally hate TSP and it's proxy (the other 50% supports them..this place will always be on the boil). Just have an alliance and way to supply the 50% (Rus/Ir helped us before 2011, not sure who will now, TSP has lost west but gained cheen and perhaps Russia).
The problem is radicalized Afg poses problem to Rus and Cheen both and they cannot afford that monster to get bigger else they pay a price. It is bad, we should not get into it directly, indirectly yes

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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Postby KLNMurthy » 07 Sep 2019 05:31

mmasand wrote:...

Agree +100. Rather than going after her and making a martyr of her, let her live in her cocoon and write her fictional stories into oblivion. Eventually she loses credibility and is seen as a radical who will be banished into self exile. You cannot clamp down on dissent and contrarian views irrespective of how vile and fictional they may be, it's that very FoE that gives us immunity and credibility on the world stage.

Not long ago, I would have agreed wholeheartedly with the above. I am, generally speaking, a free-speech fundamentalist.

Now, I look at the following facts:

- Every single one of the arrests made for "speech crimes" has legal basis in India's law and constitution. Actual decision as to whether the speech in question is permitted is hashed out by a judge, based on precedent, convention, justification offered by the government for the arrest and so on. There is no absolute, automatic right to say anything you damn please in India.

- In India, there is absolutely no market for free-speech fundamentalism. There are only people who cry "free speech" when their side is affected
by the law, but are perfectly happy to suppress the free speech of those they don't like.

- Given these realities, if the government lets go someone who is scurrilously spreading falsehoods, with the express intent of damaging the country, the only conclusion that the individual can draw from government inaction is that he / she is so powerful that the government and law can't touch them. Absolutely no one, pro- or anti-India, will give the GoI any credit at all for standing up for free speech. I don't think that this is the message we want to send India's enemies.

Interesting factoid:
I once did some research into the origin of the free-speech restriction clauses in the Indian Constitution, and the "hurting sentiments", "sowing enmity between communities" etc. laws. Some of those date back to British times. But all were vigorously debated in the Constituent Assembly, which decided to let those laws be, and put in the "public order / safety" etc. provisos in the Fundamental Rights (article VI?). And it was none other than Ambedkar who fought vigorously for the restrictions.

Something to tell the ignorant idiots who bray about fascist brahminical Yindoo government suppressing the freedom of Dulleeeeeeets.
Last edited by KLNMurthy on 07 Sep 2019 05:42, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Postby Cain Marko » 07 Sep 2019 05:33

fanne wrote:why cant we go back to doing in AFg what we did before 2011 We did not have a standing army there, but enough 'advisors' and supporters in Northern Alliance to keep tsp busy..

Post 2001, What we did have there was a massive US and NATO presence that allowed us to cultivate Afghani goodwill. All that will be shot to hell the moment the US leaves.


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