Ram Janmbhoomi Post-SCI Verdict: News and Discussion

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UlanBatori
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Re: Ram Janmbhoomi Post-SCI Verdict: News and Discussion

Postby UlanBatori » 11 Nov 2019 19:27

Oh well.. We have to earn the C in UBCN every din... :((

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Ram Janmbhoomi Post-SCI Verdict: News and Discussion

Postby Peregrine » 11 Nov 2019 20:07

212 pillars, 128 ft high, 5 entrances know about the elusive Ram Mandir at Ayodhya

The Ram Janambhoomi Nyas is eager to start construction at the earliest with help from the Vishva Hindu Parishad (VHP). Though the VHP has toyed with many maps of the Ram temple, there`s a blueprint based on the most agreeable version that the majority believes resembles the `original` Ram Mandir.

New Delhi: In what will go down in history as one of its most landmark verdicts, the Supreme Court on Saturday granted the ownership of the 2.77 acres of disputed land in Ayodhya to the Hindus, paving the way for the construction of a Ram Temple, and ruled that the Muslims will get 5 acres of land at an alternative site.

What`s next? When will the construction of Ram Mandir begin? How long it will take to finish and most importantly, how will it look like?

The Ram Janambhoomi Nyas is eager to start construction at the earliest with help from the Vishva Hindu Parishad (VHP). Though the VHP has toyed with many maps of the Ram temple, there`s a blueprint based on the most agreeable version that the majority believes resembles the `original` Ram Mandir.

While for years, doors and pillars are being carved in Ayodhya, the sanctum sanctorum needs to be built with great details where Ram Lalla, the deity, will be placed and worshipped. Though the walls of it are believed to be ready, the `garbhagriha` (sanctum sanctorum) isn`t.

A total of 212 pillars will be required across the temple. It will be assembled in two stages with 106 pillars in each stage. Almost half of the pillars are ready, while the remaining needs to be carved.

The assembly of pillars will take place in two tiers with the top tier having a roof. According to the approved design, the roof will have a "shikhar" that will give the massive structure a look and feel of "Bhavya Ram Mandir" (grand Ram temple).

The proposed structure will be 128 feet high. It will be 140 feet in width and 270 feet in length. No steel will be used in the support base.

The Ram temple will have five entrances: Singh Dwar, Nritya Mandap, Rang Mandap, Pooja Room and the all important "Garbhagriha" with parikrama. Ram Lalla, the idol, will be placed on the ground floor.

At least 1.75 lakh cubic feet of sandstone will be required to construct the temple. A lot has been done, with work starting as early as in 1990. But a lot needs to be done as well.

More sandstones, more carving experts and expansion of the existing carving centre need to run against time to finish the temple. Even then, sources say, it won`t be an easy task and will require a minimum of four years to complete the work.

"I cannot give you a timeframe on when the work will be finished. But we wish the construction begins as early as possible after completing the legal requirements," Alok Kumar, international working President of VHP told IANS.

One of the main reasons for time consumption is accessibility to the "karyashala". The roads are uneven and hence the supply of stones are also slow. Moreover, hand carving makes the process slower. However, the work for the ground floor is over.

However, there is a confusion over erecting a gigantic statue of Lord Ram, as many people want. It will need deliberation on the statue.

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Re: Ram Janmbhoomi Post-SCI Verdict: News and Discussion

Postby UlanBatori » 11 Nov 2019 20:36

I am against gigantic statue. No record of keeping such a structure clean and maintained, is there? And it will inevitably be compared to statue of S.V.P.ji. Of course my opinion is what is going to decide this.. :mrgreen:

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Re: Ram Janmbhoomi Post-SCI Verdict: News and Discussion

Postby Suraj » 11 Nov 2019 20:43

Cain Marko wrote:The Israeli model which is a fave amongst many Indians imho is hardly a good model to follow. They have no peace even after so many years and viciously subjugating the Palestinians. India's hasa much better and mature policy.

I don’t really make any such claim in my post . The Israel model is one of constant clashes and it’s only suited to their own circumstances .

The problem with the Dome of the Rock is that the Israelis were a diaspora for ages and had no permanent settlement around Jerusalem to keep control over the temple area and maintain worship. They’ve only had significant presence in Palestine again since the 1900s .

The other problem is with the presence of a Muslim mosque right where the temple was . Al Aqsa means the farthest mosque . The whole narrative conveniently made up so that Islam’s founder had a revelation right where the Jewish most holy place was, and hey presto there’s a mosque there instead .

The larger point here is that from the very inception there has been a policy of capture of the place of worship of others . They even captured the Christian church in Jerusalem covering the place where Jesus was supposedly crucified and burned that down, and also destroyed what was claimed to be the actual cross used .

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Re: Ram Janmbhoomi Post-SCI Verdict: News and Discussion

Postby Amber G. » 11 Nov 2019 20:44

pankajs wrote:
nits wrote:Owasi is saying - what would have been judgement if Mosque would have been there; would SC ask it to be removed and then allocate land to Hindus

IF it is a property suit, which it is, the SC would have ruled as it has now and allowed the winner the right to do as it pleased with the structure on the property. The outcome would have been the same.

Not a legal expert but then there would have been no allocation of 5 acres to build a mosque.. as clearly stated in the judgement that *only* reason for that was "illegal" destruction etc..

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Re: Ram Janmbhoomi Post-SCI Verdict: News and Discussion

Postby UlanBatori » 11 Nov 2019 21:29

Apologies from posting from haraam site but... maybe PeeAref denizens and SoMe warriors need to read this?

Indian police have arrested dozens of people for social media comments that allegedly threatened “communal harmony” after the Supreme Court ...{garbage deleted}
Security forces have been on alert since the verdict was announced on Saturday and remained on the city's streets as hundreds of thousands of Hindu pilgrims began arriving on Monday ahead of a religious festival.{that is to welcome Pakistanis no doubt}
... Police said the social media posts on platforms including Facebook, Twitter and YouTube had threatened “communal harmony”.
At least 77 people were arrested in .. Uttar Pradesh .. after the Supreme Court decision, a police statement said.
Authorities acted against more than 8,270 posts, with steps including “reporting the posts to the social media platform” and “directly messaging the user to delete the message,” the statement said.
In two cases, police ordered users to take down their social media profiles, an Uttar Pradesh police spokesman said.
More than 2,800 posts were targeted on Twitter. There were 1,355 allegedly inflammatory comments on Facebook, and 98 YouTube videos, authorities said. Police cybercrime units said they were using “sentiment analysis” programmes to identify suspect social media posts. A top Uttar Pradesh official said that several WhatsApp groups were asked to restrict their activities, according to media reports. Eight other arrests were reported in .. Madhya Pradesh for social media comments.
A jail warden in the city of Gwalior was also arrested for celebrating with fireworks after the victory for Hindus.
{A bit extreme, hain?}
More than one million Hindu pilgrims are expected in Ayodhya on Tuesday {posing an irresistible temptation to Pakistanis}

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Re: Ram Janmbhoomi Post-SCI Verdict: News and Discussion

Postby ShyamSP » 11 Nov 2019 21:51

g.sarkar wrote:
Sachin wrote:This rule AFAIK is only applicable when cases comes to court. Can't the legislature take any steps to recoup Kashi & Mathura?

It is quite possible if there is a political will to do it. For example, the US SC allowed slavery in a democratic country for a long time. The opinion of a court changes with time. Laws also change with time. With time things will change. But first we have to take back POK and split the Pak land.
Gautam
PS I forgot to say Modi hai to mumkin hai!


When ASI dug at the Janmabhoomi after dome collapsing only, court came to know physical proof that there existed some other structure underlying. Madhura and Kashi also same case for physical proof. When things done "right way", court will get the case and they only set precedent with current decision so they can't deviate from it. VHP or relevant local Hindu group should propose same deal with Government and Masjids at Madhura and Kashi to get alternative sites. This may be graceful and amicable way for Government and court to solve also, instead of forcing Hindus to take fight for those sites also.

In Kashi at present apparently Nandi is not facing Shiva which means Shiva Linga was shifted in the past when Muslims attacked Kashi.

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Re: Ram Janmbhoomi Post-SCI Verdict: News and Discussion

Postby UlanBatori » 11 Nov 2019 22:15

In Dera 3ShivNam, NDji longitudinal axis is at 90 deg. to Master of The North who faces West. JFYI. Cannot recall if face is turned to 270 (facing MoN) or 90 (facing West).
Not even Tippu The Great came there. JFYI.

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Re: Ram Janmbhoomi Post-SCI Verdict: News and Discussion

Postby krithivas » 12 Nov 2019 02:27

NYT bleats -
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/11/opinion/india-ayodhya-temple-ruling.html
Opinion By Hartosh Singh Bal
The Indian Supreme Court’s decision to allow the building of a temple for Rama on a disputed site is likely to intensify the Hindu nationalist efforts to turn India into a majoritarian nation

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Re: Ram Janmbhoomi Post-SCI Verdict: News and Discussion

Postby pankajs » 12 Nov 2019 05:07

Someone wanted the Allahabad HC ruling on Ayodhya

http://elegalix.allahabadhighcourt.in/e ... ingPage.do
Decision of Hon'ble Special Full Bench hearing Ayodhya Matters

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Re: Ram Janmbhoomi Post-SCI Verdict: News and Discussion

Postby hgupta » 12 Nov 2019 05:19

JE Menon wrote:>>The practice of demolishing a religious structure and building another over it isn't something rare.

Indeed. The exception is when that does not happen.

Even in the case of the recently burned down church of Notre Dame in Paris while we, along with the world, mourned at the fiery collapse of the "monumentally beautiful edifice, let us also remember that underneath it was a temple to many gods, including Jupiter, Mercury, Castor and Pollux, and Vulcan, the old Roman god of fire."

https://www.opindia.com/2019/04/indias- ... ilisation/


And the Romans would build their temples over the pagan places of worship as a sign of their conquest and dominion over the conquered people. And so on it goes.

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Re: Ram Janmbhoomi Post-SCI Verdict: News and Discussion

Postby SBajwa » 12 Nov 2019 05:41



Excellent Bhajan by Ravindra Jain sung by Jaspal Singh!!!!

and more


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Re: Ram Janmbhoomi Post-SCI Verdict: News and Discussion

Postby Gerard » 12 Nov 2019 06:13

hgupta wrote:And the Romans would build their temples over the pagan places of worship as a sign of their conquest and dominion over the conquered people. And so on it goes.


And build monuments to the act. The Arch of Titus in Rome has the menorah being carried off after the destruction of the Jewish temple.

Image

According to an ancient ban placed on the monument by Rome’s Jewish authorities, once a Jewish person walks under the arch, he or she can no longer be considered a Jew. So, from the time the Arch of Titus was first built, no Jew has ever willingly walked under it, unless he or she was oblivious to its significance.


The emblem of the modern state of Israel is based on the menorah as depicted in the Arch of Titus.

I had a rather strange passing familiarity with the Arch of Titus and its bas-relief from the stories told to me by a close family friend who happened to serve in His Majesty’s Jewish Brigade during World War II. When he and a group of brigade buddies entered Rome, they formed ranks and briskly marched straight under the arch, giving the quintessential Roman gesture: place left hand over the top crook of the right elbow, aggressively swing the right fist straight up — the Roman salute! This was done in defiance of history’s repeated attempts to annihilate the Jewish people.

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Re: Ram Janmbhoomi Post-SCI Verdict: News and Discussion

Postby Rony » 12 Nov 2019 09:32

https://twitter.com/ExSecular/status/11 ... 9557306369 (Video)

Venkayya Naidu garu post-verdict explained beautifully why Babri Mosque had to go giving the example of Poland and Russia. He was speaking in Telugu for ETV Telugu show.

Under Soviet occupation a huge church was built in Poland, when Russians left, the church was demolished, when they asked why a Christian country demolished a church.. they said this church was a symbol of our slavery’ it has to go

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Re: Ram Janmbhoomi Post-SCI Verdict: News and Discussion

Postby Rishi_Tri » 12 Nov 2019 09:41

I am sure many here would know, but still posting: For those interested in listening to Classic Ram Charitmanas and sung in Classic Chaupai form, you can listen to AIR FM GOLD Delhi Channel at 6:50 AM every morning. It is currently playing Baal Kaand. AIR plays it in repeat form i.e., repeats without end and has been doing so for years now.

Also available over internet on http://prasarbharati.gov.in/ > Live Radio > AIR Delhi FM Gold

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Re: Ram Janmbhoomi Post-SCI Verdict: News and Discussion

Postby Karthik S » 12 Nov 2019 10:46

Looks like they have filed a petition asking that 5 acres be inside the 67 acres.

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Re: Ram Janmbhoomi Post-SCI Verdict: News and Discussion

Postby Sachin » 12 Nov 2019 11:34

Karthik S wrote:Looks like they have filed a petition asking that 5 acres be inside the 67 acres.

I think the court order clearly stated that 5 acres to be OUTSIDE the 67 acres, but at a prominent place within Ayodhya. Now that it is this order which is still binding, the Hindu groups can quickly move in and start the ground work. By the time the case comes up for hearing, there may not be even an inch left in this 67 acres.

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Re: Ram Janmbhoomi Post-SCI Verdict: News and Discussion

Postby vishvak » 12 Nov 2019 11:44

    पतित पावन सीताराम
    रघुपति राघव राजाराम
Therefore, Hindoo majoritarian on the rise!!!!!

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Re: Ram Janmbhoomi Post-SCI Verdict: News and Discussion

Postby g.sarkar » 12 Nov 2019 12:35

Rony wrote:https://twitter.com/ExSecular/status/1194038139557306369 (Video)
Venkayya Naidu garu post-verdict explained beautifully why Babri Mosque had to go giving the example of Poland and Russia. He was speaking in Telugu for ETV Telugu show.
Under Soviet occupation a huge church was built in Poland, when Russians left, the church was demolished, when they asked why a Christian country demolished a church.. they said this church was a symbol of our slavery’ it has to go

I did not know this. But the Stalin Building of Warsaw still exists, in spite of being considered to be the ugliest building there and hated by every one.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palace_of ... nd_Science
Palace of Culture and Science (Polish: Pałac Kultury i Nauki; abbreviated PKiN), is a notable high-rise building in central Warsaw, Poland. With a total height of 237 metres (778 ft) it is the tallest building in Poland, the 6th-tallest building in the European Union (including spire) and one of the tallest on the European continent.[1] Constructed in 1955, it houses various public and cultural institutions such as cinemas, theaters, libraries, sports clubs, university faculties and authorities of the Polish Academy of Sciences. Since 2007 it has been enlisted in the Registry of Objects of Cultural Heritage.
Motivated by Polish historical architecture and American art deco high-rise buildings, the PKiN was designed by Soviet architect Lev Rudnev in "Seven Sisters" style and is informally referred to as the Eighth Sister. The Palace was also the tallest clock tower in the world until the installation of a clock mechanism on the NTT Docomo Yoyogi Building in Tokyo, Japan.
....
Some Varsovians still commonly use nicknames to refer to the palace, notably Pekin ("Beijing", because of its abbreviated name PKiN), and Pajac ("clown", a word that sounds close to Pałac). Other less common names include Stalin's syringe, the Elephant in Lacy Underwear, Russian Wedding Cake, or even Chuj Stalina ("Stalin's Dick").[3][4] A popular saying among some of the locals has surfaced in the past few decades which insinuates that the Palace's observation deck has the city’s "best view because it’s the only place in Warsaw with no view of the building".[5]
....
Gautam

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Re: Ram Janmbhoomi Post-SCI Verdict: News and Discussion

Postby Kashi » 12 Nov 2019 14:09

Rony wrote:https://twitter.com/ExSecular/status/1194038139557306369 (Video)

Venkayya Naidu garu post-verdict explained beautifully why Babri Mosque had to go giving the example of Poland and Russia. He was speaking in Telugu for ETV Telugu show.

Under Soviet occupation a huge church was built in Poland, when Russians left, the church was demolished, when they asked why a Christian country demolished a church.. they said this church was a symbol of our slavery’ it has to go


Another example on these lines.

Japanese Government General Building was put up on the premises of the Gyeongbokgung palace after Japanese takeover

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_ ... ing,_Seoul

Image

Demolition of the Japanese-era Government General Building commenced in 1995

Image

And now

Image

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Re: Ram Janmbhoomi Post-SCI Verdict: News and Discussion

Postby Rony » 12 Nov 2019 18:40

g.sarkar wrote:
Rony wrote:https://twitter.com/ExSecular/status/1194038139557306369 (Video)
Venkayya Naidu garu post-verdict explained beautifully why Babri Mosque had to go giving the example of Poland and Russia. He was speaking in Telugu for ETV Telugu show.

I did not know this. But the Stalin Building of Warsaw still exists, in spite of being considered to be the ugliest building there and hated by every one.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palace_of ... nd_Science


He was referring to Alexander Nevsky Cathedral, Warsaw

The Alexander Nevsky Cathedral (Polish: Sobór św. Aleksandra Newskiego, Russian: Александро-Невский собор) was a Russian Orthodox Cathedral in Saxon Square[1] built in Warsaw, Poland, then a part of the Russian Empire. The cathedral was designed by distinguished Russian architect Leon Benois, and was built between 1894 and 1912. When it was finally completed, it was 70 metres in height, at that time, the tallest building in Warsaw.

It was demolished in mid-1920s by the Polish authorities less than 15 years after its construction. The negative connotations in Poland associated with Russian imperial policy towards Poland, and belief it was built purposely to hurt Polish national feelings,[2] was cited as the major motive by the proponents of the demolition, especially since the church occupied one of Warsaw's main squares. The cathedral shared the fate of many Orthodox churches demolished after Poland regained its independence from Russia.[3]

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Re: Ram Janmbhoomi Post-SCI Verdict: News and Discussion

Postby KLNMurthy » 12 Nov 2019 19:51

Rony wrote:https://twitter.com/ExSecular/status/1194038139557306369 (Video)

Venkayya Naidu garu post-verdict explained beautifully why Babri Mosque had to go giving the example of Poland and Russia. He was speaking in Telugu for ETV Telugu show.

Under Soviet occupation a huge church was built in Poland, when Russians left, the church was demolished, when they asked why a Christian country demolished a church.. they said this church was a symbol of our slavery’ it has to go

Only in democratic India can a young interviewer address the VP of the country as "Uncle." Whattacountry.

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Re: Ram Janmbhoomi Post-SCI Verdict: News and Discussion

Postby UlanBatori » 12 Nov 2019 20:04

^ Faaaar better than "Sir". Great New Indian custom. As u say, Whattanation!

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Ram Janmbhoomi Post-SCI Verdict: News and Discussion

Postby Peregrine » 12 Nov 2019 22:25

Delhi Jama Masjid Shahi Imam says Ayodhya matter shouldn't be stretched further

NEW DELHI: Accepting the Supreme Court verdict in the Ram Janmabhoomi-Babri Masjid title dispute case, the Shahi Imam of the Jama Masjid in Delhi, Syed Ahmed Bukhari, said on Saturday the matter should not be stretched further.

He said Muslims in the country want peace and they had already said that they would accept whatever judgment the apex court delivers.

The Supreme Court in a unanimous verdict on Saturday cleared the way for the construction of a Ram Temple at the disputed site in Ayodhya, and directed the Centre to allot a 5-acre plot to the Sunni Waqf Board for building a mosque.

"We accept the court order and the Hindu Muslim issue which had been going on for several years should come to an end now, " Bukhari said in a press conference.

Asked about possibility of a review petition being filed against the verdict, he said the matter should not be stretched.

"Muslims of India want peace in the country. Before the court's order, all Muslims had said that they would accept the court's order, whatever it be," the Imam said.

In one of the most important and most anticipated judgements in India's history, a 5-judge Constitution bench headed by Chief Justice Ranjan Gogoi put an end to the more than a century old dispute that has torn the social fabric of the nation.

The apex court said the mosque should be constructed at a "prominent site", allotted either by the Centre or the Uttar Pradesh government, and a trust should be formed within three months for the construction of the temple at the site many Hindus believe Lord Ram was born.

The site was occupied by the 16th century Babri mosque, built by Mughal empire's founder Babur, which was destroyed by Hindu kar sevaks on December 6, 1992.

The verdict was pronounced on 14 appeals filed in the apex court against the 2010 Allahabad High Court judgment, delivered in fourcivil suits, that the 2.77-acre land in Ayodhya be partitioned equally among the three parties -- the Sunni Waqf Board, the Nirmohi Akhara and 'Ram Lalla'.

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Re: Ram Janmbhoomi Post-SCI Verdict: News and Discussion

Postby JE Menon » 12 Nov 2019 22:33

>>And the Romans would build their temples over the pagan places of worship as a sign of their conquest and dominion over the conquered people. And so on it goes.

The Romans were themselves pagan up until Constantine. As far as I am aware, most of the important gods in the areas they captures they integrated into their pantheon. Mostly let local beliefs thrive. (This was one of the reasons why the Christianisation of Europe happened without sustained resistance. Those resisting were resisting locally, without a notion of a "pagan collective" as it were).

But I sincerely curious to know if Roman generals destroyed pagan temples for religious reasons in the pre-Christian Roman Empire. Incidental destruction during warfare of course happens.

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Re: Ram Janmbhoomi Post-SCI Verdict: News and Discussion

Postby SandeepA » 12 Nov 2019 23:41

KLNMurthy wrote:
Rony wrote:https://twitter.com/ExSecular/status/1194038139557306369 (Video)

Venkayya Naidu garu post-verdict explained beautifully why Babri Mosque had to go giving the example of Poland and Russia. He was speaking in Telugu for ETV Telugu show.


Only in democratic India can a young interviewer address the VP of the country as "Uncle." Whattacountry.


This interview is a few years old. Its just getting viral again due to its context after the verdict

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Re: Ram Janmbhoomi Post-SCI Verdict: News and Discussion

Postby Amber G. » 13 Nov 2019 00:12

While the Supreme Court was announcing the Historic Ayodhya verdict, students of IIT Kanpur were keeping a close eye on the activities in the area to avoid any chaos.. IITK, got well deserved praise and appreciation from UP police and Govt..

Meet the IIT Kanpur team whose aerostat balloon will carry out aerial surveillance in Ayodhya ahead of verdict

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Re: Ram Janmbhoomi Post-SCI Verdict: News and Discussion

Postby KLNMurthy » 13 Nov 2019 00:29

SandeepA wrote:
KLNMurthy wrote:Only in democratic India can a young interviewer address the VP of the country as "Uncle." Whattacountry.


This interview is a few years old. Its just getting viral again due to its context after the verdict

My mistake then. In the clip Venkiah garu refers to the wisdom of the Supreme Court judgment, so I assumed it must be contemporary.

I suppose, unless your name is Hamid Ansari, a VP of India would have to be very guarded in what he says and does.

I still like the idea of "VP uncle", "Modi uncle" etc.

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Re: Ram Janmbhoomi Post-SCI Verdict: News and Discussion

Postby g.sarkar » 13 Nov 2019 02:05

JE Menon wrote:The Romans were themselves pagan up until Constantine. As far as I am aware, most of the important gods in the areas they captures they integrated into their pantheon. Mostly let local beliefs thrive. (This was one of the reasons why the Christianisation of Europe happened without sustained resistance. Those resisting were resisting locally, without a notion of a "pagan collective" as it were).
But I sincerely curious to know if Roman generals destroyed pagan temples for religious reasons in the pre-Christian Roman Empire. Incidental destruction during warfare of course happens.

If I remember correctly, the tradition of incorporating local Gods in to Roman pantheon did not work with Christians and the Jews. They do not allow their God to made into a statue or become a part of a group of Gods. "Ishwar Allah tero naam" type of thoughts is not accepted. The Romans destroyed the Jewish Temple in Jerusalem in 70 AD due to the continuous rebellion of the Jews. They also killed the armed and the elderly, and enslaved the rest of the population and moved them from that area. This removed Jewish influence in that area, but brought it into Europe. In the modern era Stalin did similar things with populations that were considered different and rebellious.
Lastly, after reunification in Germany the Palast der Republik building was demolished. This contained the seat of the East German Parliament. The reason given was asbestos that could not be removed. Many would not accept that explaination, as other buildings with similar problems were allowed to exist. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palace_of ... ic,_Berlin. The Palast der Republik itself was built over Berlin Palace (Stadtschloss), the former royal palace of Prussia, which the communists wanted to get rid of. The communists also removed a number of large statues of Prussian and Germans lining the street in front of the Palast der Republik. They however did not destroy them, and the current government has put them back on their old spots. In our neck of the woods we have China and the destruction of the Tibetan civilization. The destruction of temples there is still going on.
Gautam

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Re: Ram Janmbhoomi Post-SCI Verdict: News and Discussion

Postby Yayavar » 13 Nov 2019 02:34

Peregrine wrote:
Yayavar wrote:Some of the history from 1949 until the RJB went to SC (std. Msm phrases exist - ignore those):
https://blogs.wsj.com/indiarealtime012/12/10/ayodhya-the-battle-for-indias-soul-the-complete-story/
Yayavar Ji :

Kindly let us - who are not WSJ subscribers - the Article content.

Many thanks in advance

Cheers Image


No subscription required as far as I know. I don't have one.

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Re: Ram Janmbhoomi Post-SCI Verdict: News and Discussion

Postby Peregrine » 13 Nov 2019 03:02

Peregrine wrote:Yayavar Ji :

Kindly let us - who are not WSJ subscribers - the Article content.

Many thanks in advance

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Yayavar wrote:No subscription required as far as I know. I don't have one.
Yayavar Ji :

Sorry for the bother. I could not access the Article.

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Sachin
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Re: Ram Janmbhoomi Post-SCI Verdict: News and Discussion

Postby Sachin » 13 Nov 2019 11:03

Ayodhya verdict: Mahasabha may file review over five acre land for mosque
How reliable is this Hindu Maha Sabha? At least during the last 4-5 years this outfit only came into lime light when there was an opportunity to show the BJP government in poor light. Who are their leaders? From what I understand from history; folks like Nathuram Godse was part of this outfit when he decided to kill Gandhi. And Hindu Maha Sabha also had in its top rank folks like Nirmal Chandra Chatterjee (F/o Somnath Chatterjee of CPI).

chetak
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Re: Ram Janmbhoomi Post-SCI Verdict: News and Discussion

Postby chetak » 13 Nov 2019 11:25

Sachin wrote:Ayodhya verdict: Mahasabha may file review over five acre land for mosque
How reliable is this Hindu Maha Sabha? At least during the last 4-5 years this outfit only came into lime light when there was an opportunity to show the BJP government in poor light. Who are their leaders? From what I understand from history; folks like Nathuram Godse was part of this outfit when he decided to kill Gandhi. And Hindu Maha Sabha also had in its top rank folks like Nirmal Chandra Chatterjee (F/o Somnath Chatterjee of CPI).


this is the age old camel in the tent story all over again. The Hindu Maha Sabha may be just one of the outfits trying to head off the faithfools

The faithfools are not happy. They can cause the maximum disruption while inside the 67 acres

Govt should legally notify the entire 67 areas as Hindu only because of the civilizational, religious and cultural importance of the RJB

Pretty soon, they will gobble up the entire 67 acres by extending their cemetery and whatnot, openly praying on public roads by bringing in large numbers of faithfools from other districts every friday etc

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Re: Ram Janmbhoomi Post-SCI Verdict: News and Discussion

Postby Sachin » 13 Nov 2019 12:08

chetak wrote:this is the age old camel in the tent story all over again.
....
The faithfools are not happy.

And why is Hindu Maha Sabha batting for them? I get a sinister feeling that organisations like Hindu Maha Sabha are all "false flag" entities created to get the minority communities absolute control over things. Any way SC has given a three month mandate to get the Temple trust up and running, and there is a rumour that Yogi Adityanath would drive it.

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Re: Ram Janmbhoomi Post-SCI Verdict: News and Discussion

Postby dada » 13 Nov 2019 13:29

When Aswan Dam was constructed in Egypt , many ancient temples of Egyptian civilisation risked being submerged under the dam waters.
Using the State of the Art civil Civil Engg Technologies , some of these temples, statues were RE-LOCATED brick by brick, block by block at a higher but nearby location.

So out of the 40000+ temples that islamic foreign invaders destroyed , We can begin with relocation of atleast the mathura & kashi mosques (whose proof is quite visible). NO need to use the word "destruction" , call it "relocation".

Muslims needs to be clearly told that if their invader forefathers have committed a crime , they as responsible descendents of the faith , need to CORRECT the historical wrong peacefully by allowing the relocation of the controversial mosques.

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Re: Ram Janmbhoomi Post-SCI Verdict: News and Discussion

Postby JE Menon » 13 Nov 2019 13:52

>>If I remember correctly, the tradition of incorporating local Gods in to Roman pantheon did not work with Christians and the Jews.

Indeed. Therein lies the catch. Although it must be stressed that the Jews main concern was not whether they could live under the Romans, but that the Romans wanted their emperor worshipped as "divine". Even to make a token gesture in that direction was not possible for the Jews. Having said that, the Romans and Jews co-existed for centuries, they had a modus vivendi of sorts with the Romans in the position of power. With the Christians, the situation was quite different because unlike they Jews, they actively disrupted the social status quo in the Roman Empire. The Jews just wanted to be left alone to get on with their thing, without having to acquiesce in the divinity of the Emperor. The Romans went quite a way in accommodating that, but not all the way. The Jewish rebellions of course put paid to all thought of accommodation. It is a strange case of both elites wanting order, but the Jewish "working class" as it were deciding that enough poverty was enough.

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Ram Janmbhoomi Post-SCI Verdict: News and Discussion

Postby Peregrine » 13 Nov 2019 16:59

Archaeologist BR Mani: Hindus, Muslims were part of ASI's Ayodhya excavation - Kumar Shakti Shekhar

The Supreme Court, in its November 9 verdict on the Ayodhya issue, mentioned in detail the findings of the report prepared by a team of the Archaeological Survey of India (ASI). The court said the structure below the disputed site at Ayodhya was not an Islamic structure and there was evidence of a temple-like structure existing before the Babri Masjid was built. It further said the structure was scientifically tested by the ASI team.

TOI spoke with BR Mani, director of the team that excavated the site and main author of the report which was submitted to the Allahabad High Court in 2003. The report formed one of the bases for both the Allahabad High Court Archaeologist BR Mani and Supreme Court judgments. Mani was a superintending archaeologist posted in Delhi when he was entrusted with the Ayodhya excavation. Later, he went on to become ASI additional director general (ADG). He retired as DG of the National Museum in August.

Q: What are your first reactions on SC judgment?

A: A very solid team of the ASI had undertaken excavation at the disputed site in Ayodhya in 2003. I was director of the excavation. It is my proud privilege to be associated with this excavation work. I welcome this judgment because it is unprecedented and it has solved a long-pending dispute very amicably without hurting the feelings of any section of society. It has created the same Ganga-Yamuni culture of which our country is proud. I am proud to be associated with the excavation. I feel particularly happy for ASI because its work has been proved correct. The decision was based on evidence which the ASI team submitted. I thank my team and department.

Q: How did you go about the excavation after Allahabad High Court’s directive to excavate the disputed site?

A: In fact, I had suffered a stroke just before the order. Therefore, I was not too keen to go to Ayodhya. But the government told me that being a professional excavator and archaeologist, I must head the team. As team leader, I was sent to Ayodhya, initially with just 13 or 14 members in the team. When we reached, we found that the Ground Penetrating Radar Survey (GPRS) had already been completed. We visited the area and divided it into different quarters. We launched excavations on the eastern side, We then extended our work to the northern and western sides, including the slope. Finally, we excavated the central area just 10 feet away from the place where Ram Lalla was situated.

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Q: How many days did your excavation work carry on for?

A: Initially we were given a month’s time for excavation and 15 days for submission of the report. But it was extended because we said a month’s time for excavation was not sufficient for the job as we had to dig up to the natural soil. According to the principle of excavation, we have to find out the cultural sequence of the site which is being excavated. The excavation took place for less than six months, starting March 2003. We closed it in August and in the same month submitted the report.

Q: What were the mechanisms adopted to ensure the whole process of excavation and submission of report was transparent and foolproof?

A: There were 50 people in my team at any point in time -- all from ASI. The team comprised both Hindus and Muslims. Apart from this, the Allahabad High Court had directed that a proportion of labourers had to be Muslims. Two additional district judges were deputed to keep watch at the site. One of them was Hindu while the other was Muslim. Both were present at the site on all the days the excavation took place. We followed a procedure of preparing a brief report at the end of each day’s work. It mentioned the number of trenches we worked in and our findings. All the representatives of the parties and those present on that day had to sign the report.

Also, there were representatives of 20 parties, of both Hindus and Muslims. These representatives were either advocates of those parties or their representative historians. I can say that many of them were paid representatives, and, therefore, had to follow the instructions of their parties. They used to give slips to the additional district judges who would pass them on to me for a response, which I would do. In total, we received about 20 such objections. The objections raised and our responses were also considered by the Allahabad High Court in its judgment. For instance, some of these parties claimed there was a Buddhist Stupa beneath the Babri Masjid. But I disputed it by stating that stupas are always solid structures, and we had not found a solid structure. Several such objections over pillar bases, carrying capacity of the super structure, etc. were raised. They also told the court that we had been asked to excavate up to a certain level while we had excavated upto 45 feet below the erstwhile mosque. We replied saying this was neccessary as per our principle. They were cross-questioned by the Hindu and Muslim parties in the high court in front of the judges.

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Q: What were your team’s findings?

A: If we take it chronologically, our findings go back to 16th century BC where pre-Mauryan deposit is there. There are four or five Carbon 14 dates which range between 900 and 1600 BC. Some of the dates belong to 3rd and 5th century BC. That is the earliest period. We uncovered remains of the Mauryan, Shung and Kushan periods, when for the first time we found that large-scale construction took place with burnt bricks between 1st and 2nd century AD. Then we also found remains of the Gupta period. We found a copper coin of Chandragupta II who is traditionally associated with the site. We also found different terracotta articles belonging to the Gupta period, along with massive structures belonging to the same period. These structures were not house complexes.

In the post-Gupta and Rajput period we found evidence of the start of construction of some religious structure. The earliest structure belonged to 9th or 10th century AD. It is a circular structure and it had a water channel from the centre of the circular temple and which went towards the northern side. From texts we know, and even if you go and see any temple, particularly the Shiva temple, you will find the ‘abhishek jal’ - water that is poured over the deity - always flows towards the north. From the ‘Varahamihira Samhita’ and other texts on temple architecture, we know there used to be a style of temple architecture which is circular in nature. Circular temples are also in existence in Madhya Pradesh, central India, parts of Uttar Pradesh and also different places in the south. Their origin is somewhere around 950 AD. That was indicative of an early temple. The most massive structure, which continued to run below the walls of the mosque, was about 60 metres in length. That construction had begun somewhere in 11th century AD. Probably, it was damaged or got damaged due to either natural reasons or due to an attack. Everything was cleared and the land was flattened for construction. It was further repaired, most probably in the 12th century. But the structures were present underneath and some of the pillar bases were still visible despite the presence of the mosque. The pillar had several pillar bases.

This was the situation when the Babri mosque was constructed during Babur’s time. Since the mosque had already been demolished in 1992, we got permission from the Allahabad High Court to excavate the floors of the mosque. There we found the remains of 50 pillar bases. If we take into account the extent of pillar bases, they are 17 in a row and there are five such rows. The pillar bases are at equidistance and in alignment. This is indicative of the existence of an extensive ‘mandap’ of a temple. In the report which we submitted to the Allahabad High Court, we said it is a massive structure. Along with the circumstances and the objects we recovered, we could say that it was indicative of a North Indian style of temple. We found remains of temple architecture such as ‘amlak’ and highly decorative water shoots called ‘makar pranali’. These water shoots were reused in the walls on the mosque.

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Q: Did you and your team find any more clinching evidence of the structure being a temple?

A: We also studied the plaster remains and the radiocarbon dates. The important aspects indicative of the structures and the inhabitation just below the level of the mosque that was exposed clearly showed that the mosque was not constructed over any vacant land but was constructed over some early remains which pointed to a North Indian style of temple because of its massive structure.

We submitted the report in two volumes consisting of more than 570 pages. This formed one of the bases on which the Allahabad High Court delivered its judgment in 2010. And now the Supreme Court has also based its verdict mainly on archaeological evidence

Q: Union culture minister Prahlad Patel has announced that the ASI report authored by you and which finds extensive mention in the Supreme Court verdict would be published as a book for public consumption. How do you view it?

A: It is a good opportunity for everyone, including those who have some doubts, to get educated about the excavation work and the findings. From time to time, the court had asked us to give supplementary notes and clarifications. I hope these notes are included in the book.

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Re: Ram Janmbhoomi Post-SCI Verdict: News and Discussion

Postby chetak » 13 Nov 2019 17:32

twitter


Will unfollow anybody suggesting that Hindus should donate for building of Masjid. Stop guilt tripping your own people. Our temples are still out of our control. We are still hounded by conversion mafia. We are still struggling to rejuvenate our cultural pride.
So STFU!

8:07 AM - 9 Nov 2019

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Re: Ram Janmbhoomi Post-SCI Verdict: News and Discussion

Postby UlanBatori » 13 Nov 2019 19:19



Thanks! That link should be pinned at the top, pls. I had NOOOOOOOO idea that they had found such clear, clear evidence.

I am confused. The pics appear to show that the ASI dug into the rich raw earth below the cluttered parking lot, before hitting the organized structure below. This structure is far more than just a foundation: there is at least one whole level (one "storey" in Indglish) there, already found, and perhaps more hidden below through passages under those big stone lids.

Please discuss this for the benefit of the 404s such as myself. The only book on Archaeology that I have ever read, is the famous Classic by Professor Macaulay.
IMO, one super implication is this: it is the first such find of which I know, that was made in an area that has been continuously populated (means construction items are recycled all the time). IOW, Mohenjodaro, Harappa, the Sarasvati Valley sites, the Babylonian, Egyptian, and Dead Sea sites, the Inca/Maya ruins, all have been found in places where the civilization vanished, leaving structures to sink into the soil by gravity. Or Pompeii-Herculaneum which were covered in lava.

So that makes this very very significant.

I am trying to imagine what happened in those horrible times of the invasion. The sh1ts demolished the superstructure of the Mandir: probably used Hindus captured as slaves to do it, their hearts as broken as their bodies, their weeping eyes also hurting from the dust. That would have created a big field of rubble, of which some big stones and pillars were saved to build the monstrosity. Then they forced the people to carry in dirt to cover the place, and then build the foundations of the mo?

A movie must be made of this. Who dares I wonder.

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Re: Ram Janmbhoomi Post-SCI Verdict: News and Discussion

Postby ArjunPandit » 13 Nov 2019 19:57

^^i hope the remanats are taken and perserved for future generations to remind them of what military and numeric weakness does....


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