Ram Janmbhoomi Post-SCI Verdict: News and Discussion

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chetak
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Re: Ram Janmbhoomi Post-SCI Verdict: News and Discussion

Postby chetak » 01 Dec 2019 06:34

vishvak wrote:
Apollo hospital

What is so appealing to have a hospital next to a temple as a practice?! Where are such practices observed strictly unless a taqiya at other's religious places.


and cater almost exclusively non dahrmic patients who will congregate there out of sheer spite

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Re: Ram Janmbhoomi Post-SCI Verdict: News and Discussion

Postby chetak » 01 Dec 2019 19:42

The role of the commies/naxals in undermining the organs of the Indian state, weakening the pillars of her democracy and sowing the seeds of communal dissension and being instrumental in arousing sectarian discord and rivalry and encouraging separatist tendencies in multiple regions has to be understood.

Singlehandedly, the commies have delayed by many decades, the resolution of the RJB simply to tire out the Hindus and to keep the pot boiling and to not so subtly influence the state and judiciary to accept a position that supports the age old colonial constructs that favor the islamic appropriation of Indian history, civilization and culture.

unfortunately for them, the dharmic blowback this time was too powerful to be contained by a set of unwashed and sullen BIF losers.

The judicial verdict has also taken the wind out of many a BIF sail.

equally, it has to be understood why the congis encouraged, nurtured and tolerated such a venomous bunch of anti national traitors who openly rooted for the destruction of the Indian state.

The NAC set up by the eyetalian gang is a case in point.


How the Communists betrayed India to China


How the Communists betrayed India to China

Source : SIFY
By : RSN Singh
Fri, Oct 10, 2014

The decade of 50s was characterized by romanticisation of communism in India. Such was the romance that many leaders of the post-Independence dispensation, most of who claimed to have made huge sacrifices for India's Independence, hailed the Communist takeover of China. It may be underscored that India was the first non-communist country to accord diplomatic recognition in January 1950 to China consequent to the establishment of Mao's rule.

Amongst the exceptions, who did not romanticize and saw the writing on the wall very clearly, was Sardar Patel. In his letter dated 7 November 1950 to Pt Jawaharlal Nehru, Sardar Patel wrote: "...outside the Russian Camp, we have practically been alone in championing the cause of Chinese entry into the UNO... it (China) continues to regard us with suspicion and the whole psychology is one, at least outwardly of skepticism perhaps mixed with little hostility... it looks as though it is not a friend speaking in that language but a potential enemy..."



Further Sardar Patel warned of a two-front situation after the disappearance of Tibet as a buffer country. He said: "Thus, for the first time after centuries, India's defence has to concentrate itself on two fronts simultaneously. Our defence measures have so far been based on the calculations of superiority over Pakistan. In our calculations, we shall now have to reckon with Communist China..."

How prescient!

Why did the dispensation ignore Sardar Patel's warning? Why did the dispensation, which prided itself in having achieved independence only by Satyagraha, did not find it abominable that the Communism was foreign ideology and had travelled from Russia to China after murder of more than three million and two million people in the respective countries.

Finally, when it arrived in India, the same worshipers of non-violence were so indulgent with the Communism and the Communists!

The communist leadership in India were not ideologically and physically bred in underground manner. Nor did they go through the hardship of jungles. Most of them were privileged lot, who received their education in Oxford and Cambridge in UK. It is here that they were indoctrinated by the erstwhile British masters and returned to India as diehard communists.

These so-called Communists were perfectly married to the British agenda in the pre-colonial period. Left-liberalism was the perfect tool to legitimize the colonial rule as it robbed Indians of any sense of pride in India's past. This phenomenon was not confined to India alone.

Post Cold War the mantle of patronage to left wing extremisms has gradually shifted to European countries which are using it as leverage to pursue their economic and religious agenda.

Later, these very communists , who abused Indian history, religion and Indian social structure captured academic institutions and intellectual space in India. Educational institutions in Bengal, which at one time produced such brilliant scientists, began to churn out purposeless graduates steeped in denial and negativity.


Communism, in fact, robbed Bengal of its scientific and productive temper and intellectual capital. Such was the momentum of communists that hardly any university in India was left un-impacted by their diabolical onslaught.

Even a newly established university like the JNU, far from promoting pioneering research, sunk into leftist cynicism and sterile pseudo -intellectualism.

The 50s, therefore also witnessed massive inroads by Communists in all spheres of activity and governance in India. The then government had its share of Communists or Communist sympathizers. VK Krishna Menon was more than just left leaning. Some of the declassified documents of that period are not very charitable about his international linkages. This period was also characterized by great Soviet-China communist bonhomie, and bitter and fierce Cold War.

Concomitant with the communist (ideological as well as physical) and Pakistan threat was a concerted move by the Indian dispensation to humiliate and degrade the armed forces. There were defining geopolitical developments during the period. Pakistan had joined the CENTO and SEATO, whose architect was none other than the US. The ideological fissures in the subcontinent became deep and sharp.

It had military manifestations as well. The two-front situation - further exacerbated. But the left oriented leadership continued to treat the Indian Army as colonial instrument. It is another matter that they themselves had been nurtured as colonial instruments to serve British interests. The Soviet Union which spearheaded the international communist movement therefore did not find it difficult to subvert and recruit the Indian leadership. Indian Generals during this period were trifled with. An Army Chief was told that it was none of his business to bother about China.

A Prime Minister went to the extent of saying that he does not need the Army and could do without it. Discussions were held in parliament about employment of Army in agriculture. Those who supported these moves in the parliament include some unthinkable names. With little effort these names can be ascertained.

In the 50s the ruling party did not have any insecurity on account of political opposition. There were however unfounded rather purely imagined suspicions vis-à-vis the Indian Army. No geopolitical development and no threat were strong enough to outweigh these apprehensions of the ruling class.

During that period, Ayub Khan in Pakistan, Sukarno in Indonesia and King Mahendra in Nepal, abandoned Western pattern of multi-party democracy and opted for 'grassroots democracy'. The victim of the insecurity of the Indian leadership was the Indian Army.

It was perceived as a potential villain, a perception no less fueled by the bureaucrats, who still basked in colonial hangover, wherein Oxford and Cambridge became the ultimate destination for their loved children, only to be replaced by the US later.

This sin perpetrated by the leaders on their own army, was bound to recoil, and it did in 1962.

The myopia of these thankless leaders did not extend beyond exigencies of office'. They undermined the role of INA and the Naval Mutiny in securing India's Independence, a fact authenticated by Clement Atlee. They deliberately ignored that the India, they were presiding over, was put together by none other than the Indian Army – if 1947-48 war in J&K, if Operation Polo in September 1948 and if the Liberation of Goa in 1961, was of any consideration.

Pakistan, meanwhile, had bridged the Cold War fissures with China. Our leaders bereft of strategic sense failed to realize the significance of 1947 Indo-Pak war towards creating geographical contiguity between the PoK and China. By managing to retain a certain portion of occupied territory (PoK) in Kashmir after the ceasefire, Pakistan became a direct geographic interlocutor with China.

Pakistan without the PoK would have had little strategic value for China. It would not have been able to cede 5000 sq km territory of PoK to China and 1300 Km Karakoram Highway that connects Islamabad with Kashgar in Xinjiang. Without this territory the envisaged 'Economic Corridor' linking China with Gwadar port would have also not been possible.

The fact that border negotiations between Pakistan and China had begun in 1961 and the broad principals were agreed upon within months after Indo-China war in 1962 does raise suspicion about some sort of understanding between the leadership of Pakistan and China about the Indo-China War.

These geopolitical developments when seen through the Communist or left – liberal prism in India, was not a matter of concern and priority. The nexus between Pakistan and China meant nothing to them.

India therefore deserved the rude blow from China. But for this, let us consider what would have happened.

• The destruction of the Indian Armed Forces from within would have continued and by 1965 may have rendered a situation by which there would have been nothing to stop Pak forces to Delhi.

• The Communists, who had infiltrated every organ of the State, would have in all probability taken over major portion of India. The 1962 War did politically contain them but yet they managed to retain their influence in West Bengal and Kerala. The Indian communists remained a force despite some of them openly siding with China in the 1962 War.

These communists had no qualms about China even as it supported the Naxalites and the insurgents in India's northeast. They had no qualms about the strategic partnership between Pakistan and China. Their heart continued to bleed for both these countries.

• The Indian Armed Forces, despite 1965, 1971, 1999 and years of counterinsurgency, is still struggling to find its place of honour and dignity. But for 1962, its condition by now would have been pathetic, a condition that many left liberals and bureaucrats wanted it to be in.

• But for 1962, there would have been unbridled propensity to couch criminalization as political revolution. Even now, communists use all their leverages in India and abroad to dub their criminal and anti-national activities as 'revolution'. The Indian romance about the 'Red Flag' at the cost of all other flags of productivity and progress though waning, is far from over.

• But for 1962, left-liberals would have promoted jihadi terrorism as 'revolution' with uninhibited fervor.

• But for 1962, China's Cultural Revolution would have served as an exemplar for our expanding communists.

• But for 1962, 'Binayak Sens' would have been ubiquitous.

• But for 1962 communist takeover of India was a distinct possibility. The closest India came to that was by way of an extra-constitutional authority called the National Advisory Council (packed with communists)whose principal effort was to further the communist agenda of their benefactor. This benefactor had acquired communist ideology by upbringing. There were however opposing forces capable of extracting their own price. It seemed as if Cold War had re-invented itself within the Indian ruling establishment.

Despite 1962 there has been steady supply of elements within the Indian polity, policy-makers and academia whose agenda has been to allow China to steal the march and dwarf India in international stature and prowess. It is this lobby that sabotages indigenous defence production and ensures that our foreign policy becomes hostage to vicissitudes of arms imports.

It is this lobby that that advocates that talks with China's client Pakistan continues at all costs. This lobby rather thrives on India's adversarial relationship with China. This lobby is loathe to any equal cooperative mechanisms between the countries.

But for 1962, this lobby would have placed this country under "one party rule". 1962 may as well have prevented communist takeover of India

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Re: Ram Janmbhoomi Post-SCI Verdict: News and Discussion

Postby pankajs » 02 Dec 2019 14:42

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/cit ... 302426.cms
UP ropes in PwC to recreate Ram’s Treta Yug Ayodhya
LUCKNOW: After the Supreme Court verdict paved way for a Ram temple in Ayodhya, grandiose plans are afoot to catapult Hinduism’s most revered city to the glory of Lord Ram’s ‘treta yuga’ and surpass the Vatican and Mecca in annual footfall. And the blueprint for this magnificent makeover has been hammered out by the prestigious London-based consultancy firm, Price waterhouse Coopers (PwC).

While recreating the era of Ram at a sprawling Vedic village on Saryu banks, the PwC layout buttresses the temple town with modern infrastructure. Sources said the state government gave an “in-principle nod” to PwC’s plan earlier this week after the Sangh Parivar green flagged the mega project. The cost outlay would be worked out after every detail in the blueprint is finalized by the consultancy firm, developers and the state government.

LUCKNOW: After the Supreme Court verdict paved way for a Ram temple in Ayodhya, grandiose plans are afoot to catapult Hinduism’s most revered city to the glory of Lord Ram’s ‘treta yuga’ and surpass the Vatican and Mecca in annual footfall. And the blueprint for this magnificent makeover has been hammered out by the prestigious London-based consultancy firm, Price waterhouse Coopers (PwC).

While recreating the era of Ram at a sprawling Vedic village on Saryu banks, the PwC layout buttresses the temple town with modern infrastructure. Sources said the state government gave an “in-principle nod” to PwC’s plan earlier this week after the Sangh Parivar green flagged the mega project. The cost outlay would be worked out after every detail in the blueprint is finalized by the consultancy firm, developers and the state government.

While recreating the era of Ram at a sprawling Vedic village on Saryu banks, the PwC layout buttresses the temple town with modern infrastructure
Senior officials of the culture, tourism and other departments gave a three-hour presentation of the PwC blueprint before the Sangh brass at a closed-door meeting in Varanasi on November.

The meeting was convened to review development of Kashi, but the agenda was Ayodhya. Chief Minister Yogi Adityanath also attended the key meeting with senior government officers and there was a unanimity that Ayodhya would be transformed into a top religious destination for Hindus from across the world with worldclass infrastructure, hospitality services, renovated mutts and mandirs that would draw more pilgrims than Mecca or Vatican.

PwC, which recommended a complete revamp of infrastructure, logistics, services and ambience of the existing town, also stated that once the Ram temple is constructed, the footfalls is expected to spiral to around 2 crore annually and could outpace pilgrim count at Amritsar’s Golden Temple, which clocks 1.2 crore devotees annually. Currently, the Golden Temple draws the largest number of pilgrims at one place in India, the PwC said.

“To cater to swelling crowds to Ayodhya, the infrastructure has to be bolstered to cater to not just the wealthy, but also those from humble background,” said a senior officer, who attended the meeting. And the government plans to construct at least six 5-star hotels, seven 3-star hotels and 4,000 “dharamshalas” (inns).

Also, mutts, mandirs and lanes of Ayodhya would be renovated and beautified. Five RoBs would straddle the temple town and all roads leading to the city from Sultanpur, Basti, Prayagraj and Varanasi would be widened into six-lane for seamless traffic movement.
A couple of things to note ..
1. Don't compare out heritage with x or y. It stand on its own and that is all.
2. Preserve the soul of the city and not create concrete jungle just to compete with Singapore or any other city.
3. Keep the modern development to the periphery. Crate a ring/ringroad with the heritage Ayodhya on the inside.
4. Heritage part of the city should be built according to local aesthetics and with local materials. Clean/Repair/streamline/spruce it up but don't replace anything in the name of development.
5. Keep adequate land in reserve for future development in the periphery.
6. Good to see some focus on different state needs. With food other region focused facilities should also be made available/allowed to come up.

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Re: Ram Janmbhoomi Post-SCI Verdict: News and Discussion

Postby ArjunPandit » 02 Dec 2019 18:15

^actually on the other side, the city has been left to ruins by everyone..this is a welcome opportunity to undo the inaction of close to 1000 years..one thing that i find most north indian hindu places is crowd management and discipline perhaps they would do better to learn from Tirupati balaji and kerela mandirs to maintain discipline and order (not that they are perfect, but way better )

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Re: Ram Janmbhoomi Post-SCI Verdict: News and Discussion

Postby UlanBatori » 02 Dec 2019 18:36

...and the blueprint for this has been handed over to LONDON-BASED Price Waterhouse Coopers colonialist imperialists who will hire noble Mughal descendants from Pakistan to reap the mega-profit from this...


Will they install Churchillian gold pakistans there I wonder Those would be only 18-karat. I think we should have 24-carat. Call them "Model Brinda" for Brinda Karat.

The more things change the more they remain the same. Kaliyugam. :roll:

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Re: Ram Janmbhoomi Post-SCI Verdict: News and Discussion

Postby ArjunPandit » 02 Dec 2019 18:48

doesnt PWC have a strong india team? Which practice within PWC has been roped is not very clear..nevertheless it should make it truly 'secular' and RoP, RoL certified...london does have the creativity in case of buildings...afterall who doesnt like the modern day shivling ...gherkin

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Re: Ram Janmbhoomi Post-SCI Verdict: News and Discussion

Postby ArjunPandit » 02 Dec 2019 20:26

UlanBatori wrote:Will they install Churchillian gold pakistans there I wonder Those would be only 18-karat. I think we should have 24-carat. Call them "Model Brinda" for Brinda Karat.

interestingly its called america.
https://news.sky.com/story/solid-gold-toilet-stolen-from-winston-chuchill-birthplace-blenheim-palace-11809266
that reminds me of hitler who named a train america, inspired from the fact that they took land from natives...but then churchil was only capable of making pakistans on his own..so each one to his own capacity...

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Re: Ram Janmbhoomi Post-SCI Verdict: News and Discussion

Postby fanne » 02 Dec 2019 20:38

the one thing I do not like is the concrete build up that NAMO govt is doing around religious places. KV corridor looks similar, the 'Ancient Hindu' character is lost replaced by some modern jazzy look (whatever the inspiration for that is). Granted, the old one is shabby, narrow lanes, encroachment, but to replace it with something 'modern' is stooopid. Kashi, Ayodhya, Mathura, Badrinath …. are eternal cities, the design that we are imposing now, is only a fad for now (even if now is a period of 1000 years). It has to be distinctly Hindu, our unique characters. I don't think any PwC or any IT/BITY English educated Indian can do justice with it (let alone any foreigner or foreign own company). I would resurrect the city of the old, before they were sacked and before Mughal/British/Cong admin made a mess, research that (it will take modern approach to finding the old texts and interpreting them, and then building on top of that. It will take time and patience. We have until 2024 (before the next election, where SS supported parties may decide to go all secular), or few years sooner to figure and start building this out.
Wow, looking back what I have myself written, a very big task, very big undertaking. It will take a lot to get it right, and very less to get it wrong.

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Re: Ram Janmbhoomi Post-SCI Verdict: News and Discussion

Postby Lekhraj » 02 Dec 2019 21:06

https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-ne ... VsGMN.html

Review Ayodhya verdict plea reaches Supreme Court, challenges on 14 points

The petition clarified that it was seeking a review of the verdict on 14 points, not the judgment in its entirety. It argued that the court could not treat the deity as a perpetual minor for the purposes of limitation, could not correct historical wrongs and could not treat historical accounts as conclusive. It also stressed that a finding on title could not be based on archaeological findings.

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Re: Ram Janmbhoomi Post-SCI Verdict: News and Discussion

Postby disha » 03 Dec 2019 05:30

fanne wrote:the one thing I do not like is the concrete build up that NAMO govt is doing around religious places. KV corridor looks similar, the 'Ancient Hindu' character is lost replaced by some modern jazzy look (whatever the inspiration for that is). ...
Wow, looking back what I have myself written, a very big task, very big undertaking. It will take a lot to get it right, and very less to get it wrong.


Please read this on ground account https://swarajyamag.com/heritage/kashipath-2019-day-11-finally-in-the-colour-and-chaos-of-kashi-and-mesmerised-for-all-time-to-come

BTW, I have been asking but 'Modiji sunte nahin' (ModiJi is not listening).

1. Upto 50 lashes for people who dirty places (like spit tobacco, urinate publicly, throw dirt in public places ...)
2. 50 lashes to people who do not follow civic rules including traffic rules.

More importantly, Indians need to stop whining. KV corridor is extremely ambitious. Freeing up the temples itself was a major task. Things may not be perfect. But whining about things not being ideal and true to one's imagination is just plain wrong.

Do read the above article.

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Re: Ram Janmbhoomi Post-SCI Verdict: News and Discussion

Postby vishvak » 04 Dec 2019 11:31

--del--
Last edited by vishvak on 04 Dec 2019 18:00, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Ram Janmbhoomi Post-SCI Verdict: News and Discussion

Postby Sachin » 04 Dec 2019 11:48

Lekhraj wrote:The petition clarified that it was seeking a review of the verdict on 14 points, not the judgment in its entirety. It argued that the court could not treat the deity as a perpetual minor for the purposes of limitation, could not correct historical wrongs and could not treat historical accounts as conclusive. It also stressed that a finding on title could not be based on archaeological findings.

So basically; any aggression shown by the Islamic invaders should be allowed to remain in perpetuality. But thankfully they admit that building a mosque over a temple was a "historical wrong".

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Re: Ram Janmbhoomi Post-SCI Verdict: News and Discussion

Postby Lekhraj » 04 Dec 2019 17:09

Sachin wrote:
Lekhraj wrote:The petition clarified that it was seeking a review of the verdict on 14 points, not the judgment in its entirety. It argued that the court could not treat the deity as a perpetual minor for the purposes of limitation, could not correct historical wrongs and could not treat historical accounts as conclusive. It also stressed that a finding on title could not be based on archaeological findings.

So basically; any aggression shown by the Islamic invaders should be allowed to remain in perpetuality. But thankfully they admit that building a mosque over a temple was a "historical wrong".


If it is wrong, then justice has to be done. So making it right is justice only. :D

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Re: Ram Janmbhoomi Post-SCI Verdict: News and Discussion

Postby Lekhraj » 09 Dec 2019 19:42

https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-news/hindu-mahasabha-challenges-5-acre-plot-to-muslims-in-sc-s-ayodhya-verdict/story-X9KZ3oDNupCEGxkMbj0BAJ.html

Hindu Mahasabha challenges 5-acre plot to Muslims in SC’s Ayodhya verdict

God know who advices these Hindu Mahasabha guys. Can't they keep quite and wait till the time court junks review petition from peaceful.

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Re: Ram Janmbhoomi Post-SCI Verdict: News and Discussion

Postby Sachin » 09 Dec 2019 21:06

Lekhraj wrote:God know who advices these Hindu Mahasabha guys. Can't they keep quite and wait till the time court junks review petition from peaceful.

I have a very strong feeling that Hindu Maha Sabha is a Congress stooge, just like the various Sene/Sena in down South. Check the history of Hindu Maha Sabha, we even had Com. Somnath Chatterjee's father leading this organisation.

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Re: Ram Janmbhoomi Post-SCI Verdict: News and Discussion

Postby manjgu » 09 Dec 2019 21:37

i think SC erred grossly on 1 count..( i have not read the full SC order) ..it should have clearly said that the disputed structure was not built on virgin land...the underlying structure was a hindu religious structure / temple. This would have stopped all further debate/review on the matter. It could have further clarified person responsible for the destruction of temple could not be established conculsively ( while we know mughals did it but probably cant prove conclusively wehter it was X or Y ). A islamic structure built on and using ruins of a temple is not a mosque.

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Re: Ram Janmbhoomi Post-SCI Verdict: News and Discussion

Postby uddu » 09 Dec 2019 21:38

Not only congress/leftist. Even there could be a strong possibility that they have Evangelical links. In Karnataka the attack on Hindus came from the attack by Ram Sena on some pub. Then the leftist/evangelical media merrily wrote articles against the Hindus, while that fellow is seen roaming around in Jeep that says Jesus while campaigning against BJP, and trying to divide Hindu votes. They failed miserably. Seems to create a kind of inferiority complex among Hindus and then push for religious conversion. That show flopped though. Some probability that few of the religious mutts could be in the pocket of evangelicals/Congress/Leftist ecosystem. Need to keep an eye on them.


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Re: Ram Janmbhoomi Post-SCI Verdict: News and Discussion

Postby Lekhraj » 12 Dec 2019 17:11

This is good news. So now the case rests for good.

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Re: Ram Janmbhoomi Post-SCI Verdict: News and Discussion

Postby Rsatchi » 12 Dec 2019 17:28


Was this more a bombast and a show to the 'peacefuls and unwashed abduls' that the Ummah is doing something!! :roll:
What about that Hyderabadi professor who keeps giving sermons on RJB issue and is a favourite of Burkha, Turdadeep, Craven-Thappad etc.
How to shut him and Owaisi up!!.
The latter thinks that just because his Walid added AI to the MIM all is okay and he has full authority to diss the Dharmic folks :eek:

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Re: Ram Janmbhoomi Post-SCI Verdict: News and Discussion

Postby Karthik S » 12 Dec 2019 17:30

Hope construction can begin soon and the temple be ready by 2024.

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Re: Ram Janmbhoomi Post-SCI Verdict: News and Discussion

Postby Prem Kumar » 12 Dec 2019 20:05

Regarding Hindu Mahasabha, don't diss them without knowing about them. There could be a few groups roaming around with that name, but the one that I am familiar with is a hardcore Hindu organization. Their numbers are small.

1) They are a "give no quarter to the enemy" type. So, not surprised that they filed a petition asking SC to not give 5 acres to Muslims
2) I am happy that they filed such a review petition. Served as a good counterbalance to the 17 others filed by Islamics & liberals. Hindus have a tendency to be complacent. These guys knew that the battle wasn't over.

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Re: Ram Janmbhoomi Post-SCI Verdict: News and Discussion

Postby ritesh » 13 Dec 2019 15:50

uddu wrote:Not only congress/leftist. Even there could be a strong possibility that they have Evangelical links. In Karnataka the attack on Hindus came from the attack by Ram Sena on some pub. Then the leftist/evangelical media merrily wrote articles against the Hindus, while that fellow is seen roaming around in Jeep that says Jesus while campaigning against BJP, and trying to divide Hindu votes. They failed miserably. Seems to create a kind of inferiority complex among Hindus and then push for religious conversion. That show flopped though. Some probability that few of the religious mutts could be in the pocket of evangelicals/Congress/Leftist ecosystem. Need to keep an eye on them.

Is this really true? Mangaluru and the whole DK district is BJP hindutava stronghold. How can this be even allowed there? Needs some investigations to clarify.

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Ram Janmbhoomi Post-SCI Verdict: News and Discussion

Postby Peregrine » 15 Dec 2019 02:30

August-05: Pakistan’s Bangladesh Moment

Sorces : I D R - RSN Singh
Issue Net Edition | Date : 06 Dec , 2019

Image

A former Pakistani diplomat, Ashraf Jehangir Qazi, in his article in Dawn ‘Whatever it takes’ on 02-December-2019, has poured his anguish, agony and anxiety about post-370 abrogation Pakistan, ironically, not India. Qazi’s article deserves serious analysis and consideration since he served as Ambassador in US, India and China, the three key determinants of destiny of Pakistan.

Qazi, oscillates between hope and despair. He pins his hope on jihadism in Kashmir – which he reckons – India will never be able to contain…

In the wake of abrogation of Article-370, and territorial reconfiguration of J&K, Qazi, in his capacity of Pakistan citizen – in a way interrogates himself and the people of Pakistan. He wonders, whether India has committed a strategic blunder in Kashmir? Then Qazi poses the question whether India’s decision with regard to Kashmir is fait accompli or still reversible? He also ponders whether Pakistan has finally lost the Kashmir cause internationally? How long jihadism will sustain in Kashmir? These are the ominous questions that are tearing the Pakistani society. Pakistanis are in shock. It can also be averred from the article that there is an agenda to create a strong lobby within India to contest abrogation of Article-370 and strive for its restoration at Pakistan’s bidding.

Meanwhile, a sustained and massive diplomatic offensive would be launched to wean the international community.

Qazi, oscillates between hope and despair. He pins his hope on jihadism in Kashmir – which he reckons – India will never be able to contain, but at the same time, he professes that the international community will side with India, because of the geopolitical situation, which favours India and will pay more dividends to the West. Under such circumstances, he subtly advocates that Pakistan should continue to keep the LoC hot and also compel India to commit ‘genocide’ and then wait for the international tide to turn in Pakistan’s favour.

For the moment the big challenge for Pakistan dispensation is to how to pacify the people, how to package their ‘constraints’ for consumption. Pakistani citizens cannot escape the feeling that if the Pakistani state could abandon the Kashmiri Muslims in India – then why not Balochis, Sindhis, and Pashtuns – also fellow Muslims – who together constitute Pakistan in the name of Islam? Why should they rely on the Pakistani state or the Pakistani military? How can the military then safeguard the Azad Kashmir (PoK) and Gilgit-Baltistan (PoK)?

Qazi laments that it is because of Jihad in Kashmir that Pakistan has remained a ‘security state’ at the cost of being a ‘development state’.

Qazi believes that India’s interference in PoK will now be intense and the West will be accomplice in that. How much can Pakistan after all rely on China, which just wishes China-Pakistan ‘territorial contiguity’ to strengthen and flourish in deference to CPEC. Qazi also believes that the present dispensation in India will change the very face of Kashmiri leadership and will liquidate the All Party Hurriyat Conference (APHC). Meanwhile, Qazi avers that the US and China will ensure that there is no Indo-Pakistan clash, especially nuclear clash between the two countries.

Qazi reiterates that Pakistan has steadfastly maintained that Kashmir is its ‘jugular vein’ and will defend it till its last breath, because Pakistan cannot live without Kashmir, just as Pakistan cannot survive without the waters that flow from India.

Significantly, Qazi then laments that it is because of Jihad in Kashmir that Pakistan has remained a ‘security state’ at the cost of being a ‘development state’.

Consequently, Pakistan was robbed of peace, development and democracy, and statehood suffered in the process.

Qazi exhorts the Pakistani dispensation that if it cannot counter India’s constitutional moves in Kashmir, it must explicitly convey so to the people of Pakistan. It must admit that it does not have the means, military and economic to do so. It must admit then that like East Pakistan in 1971, Pakistan has also lost Kashmir. If these be the admissions, then Pakistan finally must accept that it is a ‘failed state’ without any moral foundations and without future.

Qazi further maintains that there are no risk free options in Kashmir. Qazi does not shy from the nuclear blackmail, he professes that if nuclear weapons are deterrence for conventional war then this deterrence must cover Kashmir as well.

Pakistan has lost the jihadi proxy war in Kashmir, however it will not accept defeat even if it means destruction. It will invent new ways like ‘samudri jihad’ on the lines of 26/11…

Finally Qazi concludes that Indian constitutional move in Kashmir does not merely pose military and diplomatic challenge to Pakistan, but strikes at the very existence of the country.

Pakistan, he declares is confronted with an ‘existential challenge’.

From the article certain deductions and prognosis is in order:-

• Till now various Pakistani dispensations deluded themselves and were convinced that the ownership of Article-370 in the Indian Constitution and the J&K Constitution was with Pakistan. This ownership was extended to Pakistan by ‘less than nationalist’ dispensations in India and supported by a powerful pro-Pak constituency.

• Pakistan has lost the jihadi proxy war in Kashmir, however it will not accept defeat even if it means destruction. It will invent new ways like ‘samudri jihad’ on the lines of 26/11. When Mr Siddhu was embracing Gen Bajwa for the Kartarpur Corridor outreach, both JeM and LeT were frantically training their cadres in samudri jihad. Some of these cadres as
per media reports have already infiltrated through the Tamil Nadu coast.

• Pakistan will create and activate all possible leverages against India. It will make unabashed truck with Maoists and other anti-India forces. Pakistan’s reach out with respect to Kartarpur Corridor may also be viewed as part of the same agenda.

• The Pakistani Diaspora will be far more radical and violent in their perpetration of jihadi terror against India and Indians all over the West. These are the radical elements, who joined the ISIS. Usman Khan, who tried to terrorize the British by his attack at the London Bridge also had the Pakistani and PoK link. He was preparing to setup a Madrasa in PoK for jihad in Kashmir. He had plans to recruit British citizens for the purpose.

• Article-370 served as a catalyst for Pakistan’s skewed nationhood. It feels that with the Indian constitutional moves in Kashmir, it has lost traction in the so-called Muslim World, i.e. Ummah.

Post abrogation of Article-370, the Pakistan military is becoming increasingly assailable within Pakistan.

• There is a growing feeling in Pakistan that the military can no longer be relied as a panacea for Pakistan’s strategic imperatives and existential problems. Post abrogation of Article-370, the Pakistan military is becoming increasingly assailable within Pakistan.

• Within Pakistan abrogation of Article-370 has cast a shadow on the institutional primacy of the Pak military. The controversy over the extension of Gen Bajwa has much to do with the perceived ‘Kashmir failure’.

• If Gen Bajwa is looking assailable and weak within Pakistan, so is Imran, whose position is becoming untenable. Imran and Gen Bajwa, more appropriately Gen Bajwa and Imran, constitute the Pakistani dispensation under whose noses abrogation of Article-370 happened. It is being perceived as both a political failure and failure of the military intelligence apparatus.

• The judiciary in Pakistan also seems to be annoyed with the turn of events with respect to Kashmir. The Supreme Court of Pakistan did not buy the argument of ‘regional security environment’ for the extension of Gen Bajwa’s tenure as Army Chief.

• Fates of Gen Bajwa and Imran are so intertwined that Farogh Naseem resigned from post of Law Minister to pursue Gen Bajwa’s case.


It was largely Kashmir that gave the military intelligence complex of Pakistan the decisive role within and outside Pakistan. Abrogation of Article-370 has hit the very institutional balance in Pakistan.

05-August-2019 was Pakistan’s Bangladesh moment which occurred 25 years after independence. With East Pakistan being hived off as Bangladesh, Pakistan was physically one-sixth and demographically reduced by more than half. The Punjabi dominated military of Pakistan has all along never been enamoured by muslim demography i.e. Bengali Muslims or Sindhi Muslims or Baloch Muslims and least of all Kashmiri Muslims. It is their land and resources that seduces the military.

With the abrogation of Article-370, Pakistan has become a psychological rump. It was mainly the issue of J&K that gave Pakistan its supremacy within Pakistan. It was largely Kashmir that gave the military-intelligence complex of Pakistan the decisive role within and outside Pakistan. Abrogation of Article-370 has hit the very institutional balance in Pakistan. Either Pakistan rebalances or it perishes. Should it perish, the ripples will buffet or overwhelm India.

The views expressed are of the author and do not necessarily represent the opinions or policies of the Indian Defence Review.

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Re: Ram Janmbhoomi Post-SCI Verdict: News and Discussion

Postby g.sarkar » 16 Dec 2019 17:21

https://www.rediff.com/news/report/temp ... 191216.htm
Temple in Ayodhya to come up within 4 months: Shah
Bharatiya Janata Party president Amit Shah on Monday said a grand Ram temple would come up in Ayodhya within four months as per the wishes of Indians all over the world.
Shah asked Congress leader Kapil Sibal why he sought to drag the Ram Janmabhoomi case in the Supreme Court.
.....
Gautam

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Re: Ram Janmbhoomi Post-SCI Verdict: News and Discussion

Postby ramana » 18 Dec 2019 06:51

Peregrine, The whole article can be summed up in one line
Pakistan--> Paistan
basically lost its existence,

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Re: Ram Janmbhoomi Post-SCI Verdict: News and Discussion

Postby Kakkaji » 06 Feb 2020 02:25

As per news reports in Daily Jagran, the GoI has constituted a 15-member trust for construction of Ram Mandir. K Parasaran (the advocate who won the case) will head the trust. One Dalit member, one member from Nirmohi Akhara, more members from different mutts across the country. Some reps from the Govt (Central and UP), but they all have to be Hindus.

Sunni Waqf Board granted 5 acres, to build the mosque, within Ayodhya district, but about 25km away from the Ram Janmabhoomi.

Good decisions IMHO.

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Re: Ram Janmbhoomi Post-SCI Verdict: News and Discussion

Postby Ankit Desai » 06 Feb 2020 03:20

A video with details like members name and association with different Muths & Akharas.



-Ankit

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Re: Ram Janmbhoomi Post-SCI Verdict: News and Discussion

Postby Ankit Desai » 06 Feb 2020 03:24

While other end: Babri will remain mosque forever: Jamiat

As the Centre constituted a trust to oversee the construction of a Ram temple in Ayodhya, prominent Muslim body Jamiat Ulema-e-Hind on Wednesday said the Babri Masjid would remain a mosque forever and no one has the right to accept another alternative site.

The announcement of a 'broad scheme' for developing a Ram temple and formation of the Trust named 'Shri Ram Janambhoomi Teertha Kshetra' was made by Prime Minister Narendra Modi, shortly after a meeting of the Union cabinet presided by him gave its approval.

The prime minister also said that on the directions of the Supreme Court, the Centre has requested the Uttar Pradesh Government to allocate 5 acres of land to the Sunni Waqf board, and it has acceded to the request.

Reacting to the development, Jamiat President Maulana Arshad Madani said the Babri Masjid was a mosque in view of law and justice, and in light of the Shariah.

"It would remain a mosque till the Day of Resurrection, no matter what form and name it is given, because no individual and party has the right to withdraw his claim from any mosque to any alternative," he said in a statement. -- PTI


-Ankit

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Re: Ram Janmbhoomi Post-SCI Verdict: News and Discussion

Postby ManuJ » 17 Feb 2020 02:54

Govt announces that 67 acres of land acquired by GOI surrounding Ram Janambhoomi will be transferred to the temple trust, enabling a grand Ram Mandir to be built on roughly 70 acres of land.

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/all-round-pressure-but-wont-relent-on-caa-370-pm-modi/articleshow/74166419.cms

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Re: Ram Janmbhoomi Post-SCI Verdict: News and Discussion

Postby nits » 18 Feb 2020 13:49

Spare 5 acres of land around Babri Masjid, SC lawyer

A senior Supreme Court lawyer has written to the Ram temple trust on behalf of a group of Muslims in Ayodhya, asking that five acres of land around the demolished Babri Masjid where a graveyard is situated be spared for the sake of 'sanatan dharma'.


The letter, written by advocate M R Shamshad, is addressed to all 10 trustees of Shri Ram Janmabhoomi Teertha Kshetra. Shamshad said according to Muslims, there is a graveyard known as 'Ganj Shahidan' around the demolished Babri Masjid where 75 Muslims who lost their lives in the 1885 riots in Ayodhya were buried.


"There is a mention of this in Faizabad Gazetteer also," he said. "The central government has not considered the issue not using the grave-yard of Muslims for constructing the grand temple of Lord Ram. It has violated 'dharma'," the letter stated.


"In view of religious scriptures of 'sanatan dharma', you need to consider whether the temple of Lord Ram can have foundation on the graves of Muslims? This is a decision that the management of the trust has to take," it said.


"With all humility and respect to Lord Ram, I request you, not to use the land of about four to five acres in which the graves of Muslims are there around the demolished mosque," the letter added. -- PTI

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Re: Ram Janmbhoomi Post-SCI Verdict: News and Discussion

Postby Aditya_V » 18 Feb 2020 14:51

Rather than wasting time, the Temple should be built as more time more funny tricks will be tried.

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Re: Ram Janmbhoomi Post-SCI Verdict: News and Discussion

Postby ramana » 19 Feb 2020 02:31

nits wrote:Spare 5 acres of land around Babri Masjid, SC lawyer

A senior Supreme Court lawyer has written to the Ram temple trust on behalf of a group of Muslims in Ayodhya, asking that five acres of land around the demolished Babri Masjid where a graveyard is situated be spared for the sake of 'sanatan dharma'.


The letter, written by advocate M R Shamshad, is addressed to all 10 trustees of Shri Ram Janmabhoomi Teertha Kshetra. Shamshad said according to Muslims, there is a graveyard known as 'Ganj Shahidan' around the demolished Babri Masjid where 75 Muslims who lost their lives in the 1885 riots in Ayodhya were buried.


"There is a mention of this in Faizabad Gazetteer also," he said. "The central government has not considered the issue not using the grave-yard of Muslims for constructing the grand temple of Lord Ram. It has violated 'dharma'," the letter stated.


"In view of religious scriptures of 'sanatan dharma', you need to consider whether the temple of Lord Ram can have foundation on the graves of Muslims? This is a decision that the management of the trust has to take," it said.


"With all humility and respect to Lord Ram, I request you, not to use the land of about four to five acres in which the graves of Muslims are there around the demolished mosque," the letter added. -- PTI


The graveyard should be moved to a suitable distance.

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Re: Ram Janmbhoomi Post-SCI Verdict: News and Discussion

Postby vishvak » 19 Feb 2020 02:44

Why would any religious scripture have anything to do with 'Ganj Shahidan' or similar. In fact an example to not create a bigger mess in place of significance to others' religion s.

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Re: Ram Janmbhoomi Post-SCI Verdict: News and Discussion

Postby darshan » 21 May 2020 23:03

Ayodhya: Carved stone pillars, Hindu sculptures, broken idols and a Shivling excavated during Ram Mandir construction work
https://www.opindia.com/2020/05/ayodhya ... oomi-site/
Shri Champat Rai, General Secretary of the trust said that during the excavation, a 5 feet Shivaling, 7 carved pillars of Black touchstone, 6 carved pillars of red sandstone and broken idols of Hindu gods were also found.

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Re: Ram Janmbhoomi Post-SCI Verdict: News and Discussion

Postby chetak » 21 May 2020 23:18

vishvak wrote:Why would any religious scripture have anything to do with 'Ganj Shahidan' or similar. In fact an example to not create a bigger mess in place of significance to others' religion s.



they desperately want some land around the temple area to be somehow given to them because, at some future time, when a foolishly generous sickular dispensation comes to power, one that is "easily swayed by their stupid taqiya arguments", they know for sure that they will get "permission" to build a mosque there and that is what they want so very badly.

when they permit Hindus to visit macca and medina and build a temple there, then, and only then, can the matter be given some consideration and not anytime before that.

It's the camel and the tent story all over again

just move the graveyard to the five acres already given to them and let them manage with that.

after all, it has taken us centuries to legally get our own land stolen from us back again. :mrgreen:

one hopes that not even one of the 10 trustees of Shri Ram Janmabhoomi Teertha Kshetra behaves like prithviraj and creates a major controversy by agreeing to these absurd muslim taqiya demands of slyly quoting Sanatana dharma to us in the hope that they are foolishly accepted

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Re: Ram Janmbhoomi Post-SCI Verdict: News and Discussion

Postby la.khan » 22 May 2020 09:11

chetak wrote:just move the graveyard to the five acres already given to them and let them manage with that.

Any idea where the 5 acres land allotted to RoPs is? How far from our 67 acre site? I hope it is nowhere near our bhavya Sri Ram Mandir. I am very certain no Hindu devout would like to hear RoP wailings multiple times a day :evil:

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Re: Ram Janmbhoomi Post-SCI Verdict: News and Discussion

Postby madhu » 22 May 2020 12:33

Ankit Desai wrote:A video with details like members name and association with different Muths & Akharas.
-Ankit


i just love the last part that ONLY PRACTICING HINDU can be the member of trust. i think this rule should apply to all temples. even a charvak or Hindu atheist should not be part of this group.

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Re: Ram Janmbhoomi Post-SCI Verdict: News and Discussion

Postby chetak » 22 May 2020 12:50

la.khan wrote:
chetak wrote:just move the graveyard to the five acres already given to them and let them manage with that.

Any idea where the 5 acres land allotted to RoPs is? How far from our 67 acre site? I hope it is nowhere near our bhavya Sri Ram Mandir. I am very certain no Hindu devout would like to hear RoP wailings multiple times a day :evil:


IIRC, it was allotted many kilometers away and that was one of the points of contention and dissatisfaction.

They wanted it allotted within the 67.703 acres itself which was the land acquired by the central government in Ayodhya in 1993.


The five acres allotted to the Uttar Pradesh Sunni Central Waqf Board for building a mosque following the Supreme Court verdict in Babri Masjid-Ram Janmabhoomi title suit will be in Dhannipur village in Sohawal tehsil of Ayodhya, around 25 km from the site where the Babri Masjid once stood.

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Re: Ram Janmbhoomi Post-SCI Verdict: News and Discussion

Postby Sachin » 22 May 2020 12:51

madhu wrote:i just love the last part that ONLY PRACTICING HINDU can be the member of trust. i think this rule should apply to all temples. even a charvak or Hindu atheist should not be part of this group.

The commies of Kerala use the bolded part to get into temple management committees and the Endowment boards to loot the devotee's money. In fact I was surprised that the commies actually dug up information about 'charvakas' etc to justify their looting. Never thought that they would deep dive into Hinduism itself to come up with excuses.


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