Wuhan Coronavirus Resource Thread

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milindc
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Re: Wuhan Coronavirus Resource Thread

Postby milindc » 25 Jun 2020 08:10

Y. Kanan wrote:COVID-19 Death Rate now stands at .3%
https://reason.com/2020/05/24/the-cdcs- ... below-0-3/

The CDC's New 'Best Estimate' Implies a COVID-19 Infection Fatality Rate Below 0.3%
That rate is much lower than the numbers used in the horrifying projections that shaped the government response to the epidemic.


This is what I've been saying since the early days of this panic. The more we learn about coronavirus, the less dangerous it appears. I made earlier statements to this effect, and was slammed roundly and had my posts deleted. Now that the non-fearmongers are being vindicated, will you continue to censor me, mods?

Sorry, but it still doesn't excuse your moronic utterances earlier about letting people die for sake of economy. The hospitals are completely overwhelmed in India due to this situation. The recovery requires 10-25 days with good care for about 4% cases.

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Re: Wuhan Coronavirus Resource Thread

Postby srai » 25 Jun 2020 08:11

Y. Kanan wrote:COVID-19 Death Rate now stands at .3%
https://reason.com/2020/05/24/the-cdcs- ... below-0-3/

The CDC's New 'Best Estimate' Implies a COVID-19 Infection Fatality Rate Below 0.3%
That rate is much lower than the numbers used in the horrifying projections that shaped the government response to the epidemic.


This is what I've been saying since the early days of this panic. The more we learn about coronavirus, the less dangerous it appears. I made earlier statements to this effect, and was slammed roundly and had my posts deleted. Now that the non-fearmongers are being vindicated, will you continue to censor me, mods?



Subject to change and those are “best case estimates”. Let’s see more reports from around the world. I wouldn’t just trust CDC at this point because of the politicized atmosphere under Trump administration, who want favorable numbers.

https://edition.cnn.com/2020/05/22/heal ... index.html
...

Expert pushes back


Under the most severe of the five scenarios outlined -- not the agency's "best estimate" -- the CDC lists a symptomatic case fatality ratio of 0.01, meaning that 1% of people overall with Covid-19 and symptoms would die.

In the least severe scenario, the CDC puts that number at 0.2%.

One expert quickly pushed back on the CDC's estimates.

"While most of these numbers are reasonable, the mortality rates shade far too low," biologist Carl Bergstrom of the University of Washington told CNN.

Bergstrom, an expert in modeling and computer simulations, said the numbers seemed inconsistent with real-world findings.

"Estimates of the numbers infected in places like NYC are way out of line with these estimates. Let us remember that the number of deaths in NYC right now are far more than we would expect if every adult and child in the city had been infected with a flu-like virus. This is not the flu. It is COVID," Bergstrom said.

"As I see it, the 'best estimate' is extremely optimistic, and the 'worst case' scenario is fairly optimistic even as a best estimate. One certainly wants to consider worse scenarios," Bergstrom said of CDC's numbers.

"By introducing these as the official parameter sets for modeling efforts, CDC is influencing the models produced by federal agencies, but also the broader scientific discourse because there will be some pressure to use the CDC standard parameter sets in modeling papers going forward," he said.

"Given that these parameter sets underestimate fatality by a substantial margin compared to current scientific consensus, this is deeply problematic."

...

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Re: Wuhan Coronavirus Resource Thread

Postby arshyam » 25 Jun 2020 08:12

milindc wrote:Somehow Indians are attached to this thought that Ayurveda is a superior system than modern medicine but don't invest time/money to prove its efficacy.

This is fair. As I said above, let the Ayush ministry establish the proper protocols and make it easy for the public to review for themselves.

milindc wrote:Now Baba could have just announced it is just immunity booster as originally claimed in license but no, he decided to pimp it as a cure knowing fully that the trial design and the trial itself is complete fraud.

Interesting phraseology - I assume you have some data to back your claims. Please do share, genuinely asking.

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Re: Wuhan Coronavirus Resource Thread

Postby milindc » 25 Jun 2020 08:14

arshyam wrote:I tend to agree with disha-ji's points. If Patanjali claims a cure for their medicine, let them conduct trials just like any other medicine. If they fail, their claim falls flat. But why call them "fraud" without any evidence as some poster glibly did above? So what if it is made out of Ashwagandha and Tulsi extract? The only real question is: does it work?


They are being called Fraud because they proclaimed it as "cure" without conducting the trials and it does put his simpleton believers in peril. If he had conducted the trial without the shenanigans of removing even moderately ill patients then I would have applauded him for trying to prove that traditional medicine works.
Last edited by milindc on 25 Jun 2020 08:33, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Wuhan Coronavirus Resource Thread

Postby srai » 25 Jun 2020 08:21

Disha,

Please re-read your own posts the last few ones like for example:

...

So why cannot Coronil be wonder drug? We have the right to ask for proper studies but to run it down just because the drug is from a company that is run by a half-naked fakir stinks of high racial arrogance.



...

Coming to think of it, we Indians are a bunch of arrogant fools once we know ingliss.



...

Till then it is just lazy accusation. Borne out of arrogance.



Are those statements really necessary to make your arguments?

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Re: Wuhan Coronavirus Resource Thread

Postby milindc » 25 Jun 2020 08:26

arshyam wrote:
milindc wrote:Somehow Indians are attached to this thought that Ayurveda is a superior system than modern medicine but don't invest time/money to prove its efficacy.

This is fair. As I said above, let the Ayush ministry establish the proper protocols and make it easy for the public to review for themselves.

milindc wrote:Now Baba could have just announced it is just immunity booster as originally claimed in license but no, he decided to pimp it as a cure knowing fully that the trial design and the trial itself is complete fraud.

Interesting phraseology - I assume you have some data to back your claims. Please do share, genuinely asking.


Attached is the letter from Patanjali to Ayush https://filebin.net/bmi9ood43qditwks/Letter_to_Ayush_Ministry__1_.pdf?t=41lg7iv7
This letter gives details on the 'clinical trial' conducted at NIMS. Anyone with even limited experience in clinical trial protocols can quickly come to conclusion that the exclusion criteria is to ensure quick approval and rubber-stamp the drug.
And to say we have cure within 25 days of beginning of the trial :rotfl:

Here is the trial
http://ctri.nic.in/Clinicaltrials/showa ... =patanjali
It is not even completed, not even with initial publication but get on a conference and declare 100% success and cure

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Re: Wuhan Coronavirus Resource Thread

Postby ShyamSP » 25 Jun 2020 09:13

milindc wrote:
arshyam wrote:This is fair. As I said above, let the Ayush ministry establish the proper protocols and make it easy for the public to review for themselves.


Interesting phraseology - I assume you have some data to back your claims. Please do share, genuinely asking.


Attached is the letter from Patanjali to Ayush https://filebin.net/bmi9ood43qditwks/Letter_to_Ayush_Ministry__1_.pdf?t=41lg7iv7
This letter gives details on the 'clinical trial' conducted at NIMS. Anyone with even limited experience in clinical trial protocols can quickly come to conclusion that the exclusion criteria is to ensure quick approval and rubber-stamp the drug.
And to say we have cure within 25 days of beginning of the trial :rotfl:

Here is the trial
http://ctri.nic.in/Clinicaltrials/showa ... =patanjali
It is not even completed, not even with initial publication but get on a conference and declare 100% success and cure


Some questions.. Hopefully you can answer.

what is your definition of cure? What is the allopathy definition of cure? what is Ayurvedic definition of cure?

What is Indian government of money allocation for Allopathy research vs Ayurvedic research? Does Indian government allow Ayurvedic medicines to be prescribed in Hospitals? Does Indian government allow Ayurveda to be studied as full discipline in Medical college as non-alternative? Does Indian authorities/Boards such as ICMR take Ayurveda as Medical science certified to be treated on par with Allopathy?

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Re: Wuhan Coronavirus Resource Thread

Postby milindc » 25 Jun 2020 09:30

ShyamSP wrote:
milindc wrote:
Attached is the letter from Patanjali to Ayush https://filebin.net/bmi9ood43qditwks/Letter_to_Ayush_Ministry__1_.pdf?t=41lg7iv7
This letter gives details on the 'clinical trial' conducted at NIMS. Anyone with even limited experience in clinical trial protocols can quickly come to conclusion that the exclusion criteria is to ensure quick approval and rubber-stamp the drug.
And to say we have cure within 25 days of beginning of the trial :rotfl:

Here is the trial
http://ctri.nic.in/Clinicaltrials/showa ... =patanjali
It is not even completed, not even with initial publication but get on a conference and declare 100% success and cure


Some questions.. Hopefully you can answer.

what is your definition of cure? What is the allopathy definition of cure? what is Ayurvedic definition of cure?

What is Indian government of money allocation for Allopathy research vs Ayurvedic research? Does Indian government allow Ayurvedic medicines to be prescribed in Hospitals? Does Indian government allow Ayurveda to be studied as full discipline in Medical college as non-alternative? Does Indian authorities/Boards such as ICMR take Ayurveda as Medical science certified to be treated on par with Allopathy?


Wonder why you excluded 'Dr Batra' definition of cure as well? :D
Then we can have informed debate on all different branches of medicine and it's definition of cure, and finally proclaim why Baba Ramdev needs to be conferred the best medical practitioner in the galaxy.
Right after that we will then get into the debate about how 'Asaram BapuJi' is innocent and is being framed.

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Re: Wuhan Coronavirus Resource Thread

Postby ShyamSP » 25 Jun 2020 12:40

Didn't Indian govt medical agencies/ICMR push HCQ the second day even without trails? Now these Allopathic agents and "western-brain-washed" medical authorities got problem with Ayurvedic medicines. May be Patanjali should push into the market as relief medicine and let people decide to take it. 500 rs aswagandha,tusli,etc do good things to body regardless instead of allopathic chemicals aka medicines with caveats and so many side effects including death.

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Re: Wuhan Coronavirus Resource Thread

Postby arshyam » 25 Jun 2020 13:06

milindc wrote:
ShyamSP wrote:
Some questions.. Hopefully you can answer.

what is your definition of cure? What is the allopathy definition of cure? what is Ayurvedic definition of cure?

What is Indian government of money allocation for Allopathy research vs Ayurvedic research? Does Indian government allow Ayurvedic medicines to be prescribed in Hospitals? Does Indian government allow Ayurveda to be studied as full discipline in Medical college as non-alternative? Does Indian authorities/Boards such as ICMR take Ayurveda as Medical science certified to be treated on par with Allopathy?


Wonder why you excluded 'Dr Batra' definition of cure as well? :D
Then we can have informed debate on all different branches of medicine and it's definition of cure, and finally proclaim why Baba Ramdev needs to be conferred the best medical practitioner in the galaxy.
Right after that we will then get into the debate about how 'Asaram BapuJi' is innocent and is being framed.

Now you are trolling saar... ShyamSP saar's are equally fair - what is the currently established process for evaluating Ayurvedic medicines and publishing research findings? What is an "acceptable" journal to publish peer-reviewed studies? If one were to come up with an Ayurvedic/Siddha formulation, what is the process to get that into the market?

Sure, Baba Ramdev perhaps jumped the gun, but the way you dismiss these questions deflects from your credibility onlee... No one here is holding a candle for the baba or Patanjali, at best, only for Ayurveda and other Indic systems (I certainly will do so for Indic medicine systems, given the harm allopathic drugs have done to some of my near and dear ones). But going by your posts that contain words like "pimp", "fraud", "shenanigans", etc. you seem to have an especially large candle against it...

If anything, we have learnt on BRF that what appears to be is not always what is, so one must keep one's mind open to other possibilities. Let's see what the Ayush ministry's procedures come up with.

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Re: Wuhan Coronavirus Resource Thread

Postby Cain Marko » 25 Jun 2020 13:14

milindc wrote:Attached is the letter from Patanjali to Ayush https://filebin.net/bmi9ood43qditwks/Letter_to_Ayush_Ministry__1_.pdf?t=41lg7iv7
This letter gives details on the 'clinical trial' conducted at NIMS. Anyone with even limited experience in clinical trial protocols can quickly come to conclusion that the exclusion criteria is to ensure quick approval and rubber-stamp the drug.
And to say we have cure within 25 days of beginning of the trial :rotfl:

Here is the trial
http://ctri.nic.in/Clinicaltrials/showa ... =patanjali
It is not even completed, not even with initial publication but get on a conference and declare 100% success and cure

Can you tell us, esp. Mango man like me why the exclusion criteria are give away that the medicine is ineffective and PYs claim, rubbish? From what I understand the only people excluded from the trial were severely affected patients and those with acute ards and comorbidities (probly those needing ventilators).

As for those with mild and moderate symptoms of covid19, the treatment seems very promising?

What I'd like to see is if there was a statistically significant difference between placebo and treatment groups. But I assume that they wouldn't make such a claim if this wasn't the case. So long as this is the case, what is the issue?

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Re: Wuhan Coronavirus Resource Thread

Postby milindc » 25 Jun 2020 13:30

Cain Marko wrote:
milindc wrote:Attached is the letter from Patanjali to Ayush https://filebin.net/bmi9ood43qditwks/Letter_to_Ayush_Ministry__1_.pdf?t=41lg7iv7
This letter gives details on the 'clinical trial' conducted at NIMS. Anyone with even limited experience in clinical trial protocols can quickly come to conclusion that the exclusion criteria is to ensure quick approval and rubber-stamp the drug.
And to say we have cure within 25 days of beginning of the trial :rotfl:

Here is the trial
http://ctri.nic.in/Clinicaltrials/showa ... =patanjali
It is not even completed, not even with initial publication but get on a conference and declare 100% success and cure

Can you tell us, esp. Mango man like me why the exclusion criteria are give away that the medicine is ineffective and PYs claim, rubbish? From what I understand the only people excluded from the trial were severely affected patients and those with acute ards and comorbidities (probly those needing ventilators).

As for those with mild and moderate symptoms of covid19, the treatment seems very promising?

What I'd like to see is if there was a statistically significant difference between placebo and treatment groups. But I assume that they wouldn't make such a claim if this wasn't the case. So long as this is the case, what is the issue?


If you exclude ARDS, what's there left to treat of Covid?
With this criteria you can also use 'Dr Batra' medicine and proclaim some statistical significance. The lead investigator is Physician by profession not even a Pulmonologist. They claim IL6 showed significance. I wonder why to check IL6 between day 1 to 7 when the levels might not rise and why even do that when you are not suffering from ARDS.

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Re: Wuhan Coronavirus Resource Thread

Postby chola » 25 Jun 2020 17:30

It is f*cked up beyond all recognition in the southern part of the country here. Two months after the previous peak we break the record again.

After the apocalypse in New York, you'd think the rest if the country would learn? But Trump and the GOP leadership had made a complete mess of the social norms needed to keep people safe.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/06/24/coronavirus-live-updates-us/

New coronavirus cases in the U.S. soar to highest single-day total

Across the United States, 38,115 new infections were reported by state health departments on Wednesday — surpassing the previous single-day record of 34,203 set on April 25. Texas, Florida and California led the way, with all three states reporting more than 5,000 new cases apiece.

Three states — California, Florida and Oklahoma — reported record highs in new single-day coronavirus cases, while hospitalizations hit a new peak in Arizona, where intensive care units have quickly filled.

Even as case numbers climb, reports circulated that the federal government is poised to stop providing federal aid to testing sites in some hard-hit states, including Texas, prompting a top federal official to respond that testing was on the rise.




https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/24/opinions/covid-19-increase-warp-speed-us-sepkowitz/index.html

Covid-19 is increasing at warp speed in the US

(CNN)The Covid-19 infection rate in the US is increasing at warp speed, alarming almost everyone outside the White House. About half of US states are in the midst of a substantial uptick compared to their number of reported cases just last week.

Some states however have not seen any increase. For the most part, these are places like New York, New Jersey and Michigan that already went through the nightmare.

...

Unfortunately, Louisiana, which had a huge outbreak in March likely related to Mardi Gras celebrations throughout the state, appears to be demonstrating that the dreaded second wave of infection -- the forceful return of virus to an already extensively affected area -- is a real thing. (There is some controversy about whether this is a true second wave or a return of an incompletely extinguished first wave, but either way, it is a mess).
And Louisiana is not alone among states with a second bump. Florida had a small rise in April, flattened its curve for a while, but has seen a disastrous rise in June. Ditto Georgia.

...

The deliberate absence of a coordinated, cautious reopening is in many ways a larger failure of leadership than the disastrous first months of the pandemic, when the United States failed to secure adequate testing, personal protective equipment or a system to ensure ventilators were available where they were needed for its citizens. It is one thing to make a series of bad decisions in the early days of a situation no one had previously encountered. It is another and even more reprehensible problem to refuse to learn the lessons taught by the more than 120,000 people in the US who have died from the disease.


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Re: Wuhan Coronavirus Resource Thread

Postby darshan » 25 Jun 2020 18:39

For simple reason, normal whites aren't affected by it. Exclude the elders and morbidity ones.

Hardly anyone is wearing mask or worried about it. And colored people are trying to keep up with jonses. At my work place, which is as white as it gets, I am one of the 1% wearing the mask. The official policy of employer is that everyone needs to wear one. The local EHS person walks around without one.

Imagine the mask policing and enforcement if whites were dying.

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Re: Wuhan Coronavirus Resource Thread

Postby Shameek » 25 Jun 2020 18:53

When wearing/not wearing a mask has taken on political connotations what else is to be expected? When you have people argue that being asked to wear a mask is a violation of their rights while turning a blind eye to the rights of others to not get infected, the US gets not what they need, but certainly what they deserve.

Unfortunately many cities in India are a similar picture with people giving up masks and forgetting social distancing. The reason is not political but the impact might be similar. :(

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Re: Wuhan Coronavirus Resource Thread

Postby Ambar » 25 Jun 2020 18:57

Interesting. CA was one of the first states to go into lockdown and they enforced it pretty rigorously. The state also has a population that is well educated with very high income levels. So its not just southern states but even wealthy western states that are seeing an uptick in the new cases. This could be a second wave or just the first wave surging once again. What's also interesting is that despite near doubling in the average number of daily cases in US, the death rates have remained steady or even lower compared to the peak months of Apr/May.

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Re: Wuhan Coronavirus Resource Thread

Postby darshan » 25 Jun 2020 19:01

Believe me if the whites were affected, there would not have been any political issue about rights and masks. It would have been heavy handed beat down. All the cops that were enjoying hazard pay and not doing much would have been policing every corner enforcing all the guidelines. And all the guidelines would have been turned into laws and orders.

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Re: Wuhan Coronavirus Resource Thread

Postby darshan » 25 Jun 2020 19:16

Shameek wrote:Unfortunately many cities in India are a similar picture with people giving up masks and forgetting social distancing. The reason is not political but the impact might be similar. :(


I can at least give a pass to what's happening in India with people not wearing one. Indians don't have all the luxuries and excesses. For example, it can be cumbersome to wear a mask in summer and monsoon. Though Jain munis do it all the time. Or sudden change in culture to keep feet away when it was inches before. Used to seeing deaths and definition of life in general is different when there is so much else to worry about on hourly basis. I'm not referring to society people.

Absolutely no excuse for well to do educated people in US to not follow guidelines. Cars, ACs, etc. everywhere. For example, my employer has both disposable and reusable masks available everywhere.

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Re: Wuhan Coronavirus Resource Thread

Postby chola » 25 Jun 2020 19:26

^^^ Exactly. There is no excuse in the US for this. It is selfishness disguise as political rights. It is practically the issue as gun control. Literally 10s of thousands die every year from gun violence but people insist on no limits. Even after these horrific massacres including 54 from a hotel in Las Vegas with military rifles. Their right from inconvenience is overriding the health threat to many others who are vulnerable. It is selfishness and wanton disregard for others disguised as liberty.

As bad as it might get in India, it won't reach what is happening here with a far wealthier population. 120000 deaths and 1.2million active cases that are expanding by nearly 40k every day. Compared to 180k active and 15k cases in India where people are more serious about this in spite of all the hardships.

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Re: Wuhan Coronavirus Resource Thread

Postby Cain Marko » 25 Jun 2020 19:31

milindc wrote:
Cain Marko wrote:Can you tell us, esp. Mango man like me why the exclusion criteria are give away that the medicine is ineffective and PYs claim, rubbish? From what I understand the only people excluded from the trial were severely affected patients and those with acute ards and comorbidities (probly those needing ventilators).

As for those with mild and moderate symptoms of covid19, the treatment seems very promising?

What I'd like to see is if there was a statistically significant difference between placebo and treatment groups. But I assume that they wouldn't make such a claim if this wasn't the case. So long as this is the case, what is the issue?


If you exclude ARDS, what's there left to treat of Covid?
With this criteria you can also use 'Dr Batra' medicine and proclaim some statistical significance. The lead investigator is Physician by profession not even a Pulmonologist. They claim IL6 showed significance. I wonder why to check IL6 between day 1 to 7 when the levels might not rise and why even do that when you are not suffering from ARDS.

I don't know who or what Dr. Batra is but are you saying that anyone who has COVID 19 but doesn't yet suffer from ARDS is will get better without any treatment?

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Re: Wuhan Coronavirus Resource Thread

Postby nachiket » 26 Jun 2020 00:57

Cain Marko wrote:I don't know who or what Dr. Batra is but are you saying that anyone who has COVID 19 but doesn't yet suffer from ARDS is will get better without any treatment?

Unless the disease progresses to ARDS people have been recovering so far with just symptom management.

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Re: Wuhan Coronavirus Resource Thread

Postby Jay » 26 Jun 2020 01:32

Nice graphical representation of the Chinese Virus in US. This is what was avoided when we clamped down on inter-city travel in March/April until the Raga gang made it a big issue and helped spread the damn virus throughout the country.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/us/coronavirus-spread.html?action=click&module=Spotlight&pgtype=Homepage

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Re: Wuhan Coronavirus Resource Thread

Postby disha » 26 Jun 2020 03:11

nachiket wrote:
Cain Marko wrote:I don't know who or what Dr. Batra is but are you saying that anyone who has COVID 19 but doesn't yet suffer from ARDS is will get better without any treatment?

Unless the disease progresses to ARDS people have been recovering so far with just symptom management.


So if Coronil cuts down on the days of symptom and/or cuts down or stops the progression of the disease to ARDS, isn't it a cure?

Put it this way, zinc lozenges cut down the duration of the common cold by 33 to 40% (that is significant) and its severity https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5418896/#:~:text=Conclusions,lozenges%20for%20treating%20their%20colds. and [url]https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3273967/

If Coronil cuts down on the duration and severity of coronavirus and cuts down the number of patients going into ARDS, isn't that a good thing? Should not that be investigated?

However, the reaction against Coronil and Patanjali is so vehement that it smacks of outright hypocrisy.

Here is an example: https://www.tribuneindia.com/news/nation/maharashtra-bans-baba-ramdevs-coronil-104365

The Maharashtra government has banned the sale of ‘Coronil’, the medicine launched by Baba Ramdev’s Patanjali Ayurveda, which ostensibly cures COVID-19.


Just because it is from Patanjali and based on herbs, it is already called spurious!

We have one poster who was laughing off because coronil has Tulsi extract. How pathetic.

====

Maybe Coronil is all placebo. It has no therapeutic effect. Point is AYUS needs to step up and provide proper guidelines and research pathways for Ayurveda. Given that 40% of all modern medicines are derived from herbs, and more to be found, it is important that AYUS steps up and provides the path forward. And this applies not just to Patanjali but your grandma's remedies of putting clove oil or tulsi extract on your decayed tooth.

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Re: Wuhan Coronavirus Resource Thread

Postby ShyamSP » 26 Jun 2020 03:50

What India did/is doing is the suicide of its own culture, knowledge, and civilization. I thought BJP was to change the trend but it looks like there is no foresight in them also. As per BM Hegde in one of his videos, Indian medical systems, education, and authorities, still stuck in colonial mindset, consider only western medicine as medicine. This episode also highlights that.

Maybe they are waiting for US/west to develop some Covid "medicines" and give coolie contract to Indian companies to produce those "medicines" and distribute in India and the world as a cure. India is dead as a knowledge producer and wants to project as a land of workers to supply to the world to increase the economy.

disha wrote:Just because it is from Patanjali and based on herbs, it is already called spurious!

We have one poster who was laughing off because coronil has Tulsi extract. How pathetic.


Taking allopathy is a vicious cycle, in the US, you may start with 1 medicine end up with 12-15 medicines per day with all cumulative side effects easily. Ayurvedic lifestyle and medicines help in such conditions.

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Re: Wuhan Coronavirus Resource Thread

Postby srai » 26 Jun 2020 04:43

^^^

I don’t know why you guys think it’s either-or? Every form of treatment has its place and should be applied appropriately. You guys are bit sensitive.

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Re: Wuhan Coronavirus Resource Thread

Postby disha » 26 Jun 2020 05:00

srai wrote:Disha,

Please re-read your own posts the last few ones like for example:

Are those statements really necessary to make your arguments?


srai wrote:Disha,

....
Are those statements really necessary to make your arguments?


Mah just banned Coronil calling it spurious. Where is that anger coming from?

I have consistently pointed out for a decade (or more) that a Hindu is treated as a subaltern. A Hindu's (includes other indic religion) culture is ridiculed. A Hindu's achievements are to be curtailed, ridiculed, stolen, and repackaged. In fact, a Hindu is an uncultured, uncouth, rapist & genocidal maniac.

Patanjali is just another Hindu company.

Can you please let us know how we ended up in such a sorry state? The very word - the 'Hindu rate of growth' was coined and readily accepted.

India has done a superlative job on managing the ChinaVirus. Inspite of the thookers, thooblighis and the single source. And then we run down our own solutions. Even if they are handed down since ages, like the Jains wearing the masks.

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Re: Wuhan Coronavirus Resource Thread

Postby srai » 26 Jun 2020 05:14

^^^
Don’t look at others to find your self-worth. That’s the origins of suffering.

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Re: Wuhan Coronavirus Resource Thread

Postby ShyamSP » 26 Jun 2020 05:21

srai wrote:^^^

I don’t know why you guys think it’s either-or? Every form of treatment has its place and should be applied appropriately. You guys are bit sensitive.


sorry. if you interpreted that way and I didn't say no to allopathy or only to Ayurveda. Ayurveda is very clear that cure is not immediate as it doesn't have (or wasn't allowed to evolve into) surgery aspects to do a quick fix or cure in a day.

First-principles of Ayurveda are different from Allopathy. Indian should put separate regulatory mechanisms with Ayurveda experts leading instead of putting Ayurveda under Allopathic authorities who may be bought out or controlled by medical and pharma industries.

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Re: Wuhan Coronavirus Resource Thread

Postby disha » 26 Jun 2020 05:42

srai wrote:^^^
Don’t look at others to find your self-worth. That’s the origins of suffering.


That's a pithy cliche. :rotfl:

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Re: Wuhan Coronavirus Resource Thread

Postby srai » 26 Jun 2020 05:46

^^^
Hopefully, you can calm down now :D

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Re: Wuhan Coronavirus Resource Thread

Postby srai » 26 Jun 2020 06:36

ShyamSP wrote:...
First-principles of Ayurveda are different from Allopathy. Indian should put separate regulatory mechanisms with Ayurveda experts leading instead of putting Ayurveda under Allopathic authorities who may be bought out or controlled by medical and pharma industries.

Good way forward. Needs to be looked at from a more wholistic manner.

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Re: Wuhan Coronavirus Resource Thread

Postby Zynda » 26 Jun 2020 07:48

BSY has refused another lockdown in BLR as even cases continues to rise plus in most cases, the source of infection is not known or unable to figure out.
Here is a scathing reporting on Healthcare infrastructure in BLR.

https://twitter.com/i/status/1276171852352835585

Supposedly, the total ICU beds available in the city is less than 100 (76 per the video). BSY had 4 months to prepare & ramp up the medical infrastructure. I guess the Govt got complacent seeing the low number of cases until the last two weeks. As expected, private sector has been forced in to Covid treatment but ultimately if they will co-operate on the ground level needs to be seen (horror stories about how private hospitals in Delhi & Mumbai were refusing to admit Covid patients). Privately, many of these private hospitals are commenting that they are no position to admit and/or treat Covid patients.

Need to check with my health insurance provider about how much of treatment costs will be covered under the policy.

Scary situation...firstly, thanks to the Chinese & secondly, thanks to our politicians.

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Re: Wuhan Coronavirus Resource Thread

Postby arvin » 26 Jun 2020 09:29

Zynda wrote:BSY has refused another lockdown in BLR as even cases continues to rise plus in most cases, the source of infection is not known or unable to figure out.
.

Another lockdown is inevitable.
I guess he is waiting for 10th exams to get over on July 4. Not wanting to create panic by declaring now.

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Re: Wuhan Coronavirus Resource Thread

Postby Cain Marko » 26 Jun 2020 10:18

nachiket wrote:
Cain Marko wrote:I don't know who or what Dr. Batra is but are you saying that anyone who has COVID 19 but doesn't yet suffer from ARDS is will get better without any treatment?

Unless the disease progresses to ARDS people have been recovering so far with just symptom management.

Natchi... Point is that if there is a significant difference between treatment and control groups as claimed, then that is promising indeed.

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Re: Wuhan Coronavirus Resource Thread

Postby Cain Marko » 26 Jun 2020 10:22

disha wrote:[https://www.tribuneindia.com/news/nation/maharashtra-bans-baba-ramdevs-coronil-104365

The Maharashtra government has banned the sale of ‘Coronil’, the medicine launched by Baba Ramdev’s Patanjali Ayurveda, which ostensibly cures COVID-19.


.

That is unbloodybelievable! UT is increasingly turning out to be a skimeball. :shock: :evil:

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Re: Wuhan Coronavirus Resource Thread

Postby srai » 26 Jun 2020 10:28

arvin wrote:
Zynda wrote:BSY has refused another lockdown in BLR as even cases continues to rise plus in most cases, the source of infection is not known or unable to figure out.
.

Another lockdown is inevitable.
I guess he is waiting for 10th exams to get over on July 4. Not wanting to create panic by declaring now.

World-over, lockdown fatigue has set in. Will become increasingly more difficult to enforce.

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Re: Wuhan Coronavirus Resource Thread

Postby nachiket » 26 Jun 2020 10:55

Cain Marko wrote:
nachiket wrote:Unless the disease progresses to ARDS people have been recovering so far with just symptom management.

Natchi... Point is that if there is a significant difference between treatment and control groups as claimed, then that is promising indeed.

The sample size is a grand total of 100, out of which 50 were given a placebo, 45 given the drug and 5 refused consent and were excluded. This is an incredibly small sample size. Moreover according to the doctor who conducted the trial, any patient with any comorbidity was excluded, most were young and were asymptomatic or mildly symptomatic. Even the moderately symptomatic ones were excluded and there is no data available on how they were randomized. These results also have not been peer reviewed yet nor have they been published in a medical journal. How they can claim the drug is a covid cure based on this I don't know.

In the middle of a pandemic, if you start saying there is a cure with 100% success it can have serious consequences if the people start thinking there is no danger anymore. This applies to any type of medicine, whether allopathic, ayurvedic or anything else. Keep in mind that neither HCQ, nor Remdesivir or Favipiravir have been touted as cures, merely a line of treatment with encouraging results but no guarantee of success and they have been tested a lot more in hospitals in several countries around the world. The standards for calling any treatment as a cure are quite high.

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Re: Wuhan Coronavirus Resource Thread

Postby Cain Marko » 26 Jun 2020 11:57

nachiket wrote:
Cain Marko wrote:Natchi... Point is that if there is a significant difference between treatment and control groups as claimed, then that is promising indeed.

The sample size is a grand total of 100, out of which 50 were given a placebo, 45 given the drug and 5 refused consent and were excluded. This is an incredibly small sample size. Moreover according to the doctor who conducted the trial, any patient with any comorbidity was excluded, most were young and were asymptomatic or mildly symptomatic. Even the moderately symptomatic ones were excluded and there is no data available on how they were randomized. These results also have not been peer reviewed yet nor have they been published in a medical journal. How they can claim the drug is a covid cure based on this I don't know.

.

What makes you say the sample size is inadequate? Size is often the function of the statistical test used. And a 50:50 split sample is by no means small depending upon the assumptions of the test. A power analysis will tell you that the size for a significant anova result can be much lower than 50 per group. The study design is more important, and from the information we have there is nothing wrong with a blind rct design.

Compare this with the initial French studies done on the effectiveness of hcq. These studies' design/sample sizes were poor compared to what has been done by pyt. But laughable as it was, the world went gaga over hcq including backing from profs in Stanford, media experts like Oz and numerous other bigwigs. Otoh in India, a study is conducted with far more rigor and much better design, but the drug and company are instantly parodied and spat upon by so called local experts.

I think disha is right. People are showing horrible house nigger tendencies. More white than the white man, Mr. UT has decided to ban the rather harmless ayurvedic concoction!

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Re: Wuhan Coronavirus Resource Thread

Postby milindc » 26 Jun 2020 12:23

Cain Marko wrote:
nachiket wrote:The sample size is a grand total of 100, out of which 50 were given a placebo, 45 given the drug and 5 refused consent and were excluded. This is an incredibly small sample size. Moreover according to the doctor who conducted the trial, any patient with any comorbidity was excluded, most were young and were asymptomatic or mildly symptomatic. Even the moderately symptomatic ones were excluded and there is no data available on how they were randomized. These results also have not been peer reviewed yet nor have they been published in a medical journal. How they can claim the drug is a covid cure based on this I don't know.

.

What makes you say the sample size is inadequate? Size is often the function of the statistical test used. And a 50:50 split sample is by no means small depending upon the assumptions of the test. A power analysis will tell you that the size for a significant anova result can be much lower than 50 per group. The study design is more important, and from the information we have there is nothing wrong with a blind rct design.

Compare this with the initial French studies done on the effectiveness of hcq. These studies' design/sample sizes were poor compared to what has been done by pyt. But laughable as it was, the world went gaga over hcq including backing from profs in Stanford, media experts like Oz and numerous other bigwigs. Otoh in India, a study is conducted with far more rigor and much better design, but the drug and company are instantly parodied and spat upon by so called local experts.

I think disha is right. People are showing horrible house nigger tendencies. More white than the white man, Mr. UT has decided to ban the rather harmless ayurvedic concoction!


Sorry but had to say this. India has Salman Fanboys, Pawan Kalyan Fanboys, Baba Ram Raheem Fanboys, Asaram Bapuji Fanboys, Sonam Kapoor Fanboys, Homeopathy Rageboys and now Ramdev Rageboys.
Problem with these Fanboys/Rageboys is that you can put overwhelming facts/logic (what we consider facts, because Fanboys live in alternate universe) but the Fanboys are dedicated. :rotfl:
What Ramdev rageboys are not releasing is that with all the greatness of Ayurvedic medicine that we should all be proud, Ramdev baba decides to conduct trial in Allopathic setting with a principal investigator who has MBBS, MD degrees. Of course I will not ask the rage-boys on this because it will be branded as anti-Hindu.
Of course rage-boys will claim the study has greatest rigour ever in annals of clinical trials without knowing jackass about clinical protocols or what is double-blinded trials and why they are important.
Some rage-boys in WhatsApp were also offended when it was claimed that greatest medicine ever invented 'Coronil' was "Ashwagandha, Giloy, and Tulsi" which was already present in the cup-boards of the rage-boys. :rotfl: :rotfl:

In finality, it is better to wave white flag at these 'Asaram Bapuji' fan-boys, and agree that 'Asaram Bapuji is innocent, and is framed by Media, Courts, Police and also the Government'.
Let me also wave white flag at 'Ramdev Rageboys' and say "Modi is an anti-Hindu person who runs an evil government machinery that has stopped the greatest medicine ever invented called 'Coronil' that has proven to cure in vast majority of the patients the dreaded disease called Wuhan Virus". Ramdev Rageboys should continue to take this great medicine and in fact urge them to ask Baba to give it in suppository mode so that people on ventilators can also benefit from these tablets.

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Re: Wuhan Coronavirus Resource Thread

Postby amar_p » 26 Jun 2020 14:03

Drug certifications have several objectives:
- The drug safe - does not kill you.
- The pathology(ies) it claims to treat must be sufficiently defined so that its clear when to use it.
- The posology (dosage) at which the drug is most effective with minimal side effects
- What are the side effects and if they are clearly outweighed by the benefits due to the drug
- If the drug can be taken as a prophylactic or only when the disease is present
- Contraindications - when the drug must not be used
- If its claims can be conclusively proved using randomised double blind trials that can be verified and peer reviewed.
This is for allopathic medicines.

Ayurvedic medicines are usually not targeted at a very narrow and specific set of diseases or symptoms, and the same medicine can be used for various conditions. Doages are not as per one recommend chart but are decided based on the Ayruvedic doctor/specialist's experience and can vary from prescriber to prescriber.

If Patanjali had positioned the drug as "Immuno booster" that helps fight against a range of illnesses, they would have been fine. But that would put Coronil in the same category as Chyawanprash. But they made a very tall claim which falls under what Allopathic medicines claim, and are therefore being scrutinised for it on Allopathic terms, which is the right thing to do. No need to over politicise the issue.

If Patanjali is sure about its remedy, and wants to retain the claim, they should play by the rules and conduct the required trials. And stop using Baba Ramdev as its "model" for selling.


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