Post Wuhan-Virus(Covid19) World and India

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Karan M
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Re: Post Wuhan-Virus(Covid19) World and India

Postby Karan M » 19 Apr 2020 14:49

chola wrote:
Karan M wrote:That's completely the wrong way to do things. The Chinese claim to have met the ICMR standards - we wont and shouldnt compromise on domestic standards merely because the PRC has a tendency to do con jobs. We will end up falling down to their standard.

I remain skeptical about the Chinese test kits. They will likely be sub-standard judging by what's happened in Europe, where many PRC test kits turned out to be crap.



But knowing they are substandard and still buying from them is nuts. If some stranger is known to be conning you then why go to him at all? Why not use a family member?

I would trust the family member without the known poor track record even if he were a neophyte.


Not all manufacturers will be substandard. If the whole world does not have PPE and they are the only game in town, whom will you purchase from?

India is mitigating the substandard issue by batch testing at DRDO. Note the flawed sets were picked up by DRDE and reported.

Our neophytes may end up also making substandard gear. Aim should be to stop substandard gear from getting into the supply, not playing favorites.

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Re: Post Wuhan-Virus(Covid19) World and India

Postby Karan M » 19 Apr 2020 14:51

I am afraid you dont understand the gravity of the issue.

The virus isnt kind enough to merely pick up a tidy 1% of the population.

It will infect many many more % points above that, decimating the healthcare infra and the vulnerable.

The economic loss from that will be incalculable as we struggle to cope.


Y. Kanan wrote:
syam wrote:Since we can't do much to the virus and the infected more than what we are already doing, I have plan for rebooting the economy.

We have to divide the society into two groups based on the resistance to the virus. one group which is less vulnerable to virus will run the economy. other group which is more vulnerable to the virus will live in quarantine places.

Basically we are building a big database of people who are fit to work. There should be some sort of license for each person to get back into active society. If he doesn't meet the criteria, he will live outside the active society.

yeah, very similar to what bill gates proposed. but without the costly vaccine part. imo, we have to reboot the society and at the same time also do the lock down part. if chini bots indexing this post, please consider it. you have many ghost cities. can easily shift the vulnerable folks there.

key part of the plan is, to find the less vulnerable people from the huge data base. I bet chinis have full data regarding the disease. I am sure they can make list of such people.


Rediculous IMO. This kind of massive disruption is not necessary when we're only talking about saving less than 1% of the population. Let's have some perspective here; we all die by the tens of thousands every day of all and sundry causes. Why destroy society over a relatively harmless virus?

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Re: Post Wuhan-Virus(Covid19) World and India

Postby Karan M » 19 Apr 2020 14:57

Its not a silly line. Its asking for skin in the game, and indicating that people who merely say 1%, 2% neither understand the risks being faced by medical staff or understand the real world implications of a mass-infection break-out.

If some chap claims for instance, that sending 100 aircraft up to fight off a few enemy planes is OK as its "cheaper", its common sensical for people to point out that those not in the firing line can come up with such "attrition heavy" strategies - but those who actually have to face the music, will be less than appreciative (to put it mildly).

sudarshan wrote:
milindc wrote:Kanan Sir, I agree. You should volunteer in ICU and help medical staff treat those 1% patients. If not, then you should have a different perspective.


If you're going to keep pushing this silly line (this is not the first time), then the reverse should also be true. If you think the lockdown is a good idea, you should volunteer to work with at least some of those affected by it. Like victims of domestic abuse, as an example. Or how about volunteering to prevent suicides?

Not arguing for or against the lockdown, just saying it should work both ways.

I also deliberately didn't pick any economic examples in the above, because then the accusation would be - you only care about money not people (as if people are going to live without money). And if you say - those suicides or domestic abuse cases would have happened anyway, then that's not much different from saying those deaths would have happened anyway.

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Re: Post Wuhan-Virus(Covid19) World and India

Postby Bart S » 19 Apr 2020 15:33

Karan M wrote:
chola wrote:
But knowing they are substandard and still buying from them is nuts. If some stranger is known to be conning you then why go to him at all? Why not use a family member?

I would trust the family member without the known poor track record even if he were a neophyte.


Not all manufacturers will be substandard. If the whole world does not have PPE and they are the only game in town, whom will you purchase from?

India is mitigating the substandard issue by batch testing at DRDO. Note the flawed sets were picked up by DRDE and reported.

Our neophytes may end up also making substandard gear. Aim should be to stop substandard gear from getting into the supply, not playing favorites.


Not all the Chinese gear is bad. Govt orders tend to specify standards/certifications and would typically be different in quality from buying from any unscrupulous Chinese vendor. Chinese govt themselves have been asking that people buy only gear that is certified to their standards (no doubt worried about their fallout to their overall reputation caused by substandard stuff being sold by shady people).

Also, most of the faulty PPEs at least in India were not purchased but donated (by Jack Ma/Alibaba; need to name and shame). Doesn't make it any less reprehensible but it's not like the govt purchased low quality stuff from China in this case.

There is absolutely no point in imposing a blanket ban on a country/manufacturer as large as China and throwing the baby out with the bathwater, at least when this stuff is in short supply and desperately needed. Once we ramp up production in-house and meet all our needs, then it might make sense.

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Re: Post Wuhan-Virus(Covid19) World and India

Postby Cain Marko » 19 Apr 2020 15:41

Karan M wrote:I am afraid you dont understand the gravity of the issue.

The virus isnt kind enough to merely pick up a tidy 1% of the population.

It will infect many many more % points above that, decimating the healthcare infra and the vulnerable.

The economic loss from that will be incalculable as we struggle to cope.


Y. Kanan wrote:
Rediculous IMO. This kind of massive disruption is not necessary when we're only talking about saving less than 1% of the population. Let's have some perspective here; we all die by the tens of thousands every day of all and sundry causes. Why destroy society over a relatively harmless virus?

Oh man. This economy vs virus argument never goes away does it! Thakk gaya yaar..

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Re: Post Wuhan-Virus(Covid19) World and India

Postby Bart S » 19 Apr 2020 15:54

Cain Marko wrote:
Karan M wrote:I am afraid you dont understand the gravity of the issue.

The virus isnt kind enough to merely pick up a tidy 1% of the population.

It will infect many many more % points above that, decimating the healthcare infra and the vulnerable.

The economic loss from that will be incalculable as we struggle to cope.



Oh man. This economy vs virus argument never goes away does it! Thakk gaya yaar..


And 70% of those who are badly affected enough to need medical care are men. What happens in a country like India where common people barely have a month's income available as a buffer (and those are the relatively better off ones) if their breadwinner is sick for several months or needs ICU care or can't go to work for months? That is an economic disaster all by itself. This whole economy above all else just doesn't make sense, especially when most govts are also sensitive to the economic impact of lockdowns and trying their best to mitigate it.

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Re: Post Wuhan-Virus(Covid19) World and India

Postby Manish_P » 19 Apr 2020 15:58

Karan M wrote:Its not a silly line. Its asking for skin in the game, and indicating that people who merely say 1%, 2% neither understand the risks being faced by medical staff or understand the real world implications of a mass-infection break-out.


Absolutely and please note that if doctors/nurses at hospitals get infected, all those healthcare workers who came in contact are quarantined (leading to loss of resources) and at times the entire hospital gets shut down, depriving other non-covoid patients of it's critical facilities.

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Re: Post Wuhan-Virus(Covid19) World and India

Postby g.sarkar » 19 Apr 2020 17:49

https://nypost.com/2020/04/18/why-ameri ... rom-china/
With China’s economy on life support, it’s time to turn off the ventilator
By Steven W. Mosher, April 18, 2020

China has long dreamed of being the dominant power on the planet. Until recently, it seemed well on the way to succeeding, with the stamp “Made in China” appearing on nearly a third of the world’s manufactured goods. What a difference a pandemic makes.
On Friday, Chinese officials said their country’s economy shrank by 6.8 percent from January to March 2020, compared with one year ago.
The “China Dream” of dictator Xi Jinping is now on life support, in grave danger of succumbing to the same novel coronavirus that he and his fellow communists have unleashed upon the world.
I say we turn off the ventilator. This sentiment seems to be even more infectious than the disease itself. A Harris poll released on April 6 found that 77 percent of the US population believes China is to blame for the pandemic. Before this thing has run its course, most of the world’s seven-plus billion people will likely agree as well. It was just three years ago that Xi made a triumphal entry into Davos, celebrated as the new champion of free trade by Europeans leery of Trump’s America First policies. Today, it is hard to imagine an invitation to Davos — or an invitation to anywhere, frankly — being extended to the Chinese dictator, whose campaign of silencing and intimidating medical whistleblowers allowed the virus to flourish and eventually spread across the world.
British Prime Minister Boris Johnson is said to be furious with China as he recovers from the coronavirus, which nearly killed him earlier this month. Not only may he shut out China’s state-controlled electronic firm, Huawei, from the UK’s 5G networks for good, he has promised that there will be other consequences for China’s failure to share accurate and timely data on the deadly virus.
How well-disposed do you think the leaders of Spain, Turkey, the Netherlands, Australia and the Czech Republic are toward China at the moment? All of those countries have been on the receiving end of defective PPE and test kits, Chinese medical supplies that failed to contain the virus. Even an official in Iran, China’s closest ally in the Middle East, has bitterly complained about the Chinese lies that cost the lives of thousands of his fellow citizens.
The epidemic has also revealed our dangerous dependence on China for many of our most common drugs and medical supplies. You might think that no country would ever threaten to withhold life-saving medications in the midst of a global pandemic. But, shockingly, China already has. We have no choice but to add such things as penicillin and PPE to the list of products that, like steel and silicon chips, we must be able to manufacture here.
.....
Gautam
Added later, I have often disagreed with NY Post and its opinion. But not this time!

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Re: Post Wuhan-Virus(Covid19) World and India

Postby chola » 19 Apr 2020 18:13

Bart S wrote:
Karan M wrote:
Not all manufacturers will be substandard. If the whole world does not have PPE and they are the only game in town, whom will you purchase from?

India is mitigating the substandard issue by batch testing at DRDO. Note the flawed sets were picked up by DRDE and reported.

Our neophytes may end up also making substandard gear. Aim should be to stop substandard gear from getting into the supply, not playing favorites.


Not all the Chinese gear is bad. Govt orders tend to specify standards/certifications and would typically be different in quality from buying from any unscrupulous Chinese vendor. Chinese govt themselves have been asking that people buy only gear that is certified to their standards (no doubt worried about their fallout to their overall reputation caused by substandard stuff being sold by shady people).

Also, most of the faulty PPEs at least in India were not purchased but donated (by Jack Ma/Alibaba; need to name and shame). Doesn't make it any less reprehensible but it's not like the govt purchased low quality stuff from China in this case.

There is absolutely no point in imposing a blanket ban on a country/manufacturer as large as China and throwing the baby out with the bathwater, at least when this stuff is in short supply and desperately needed. Once we ramp up production in-house and meet all our needs, then it might make sense.


It is hard to ramp up local production when the GOI approved list includes just 3 Indian firms to 40 for Cheen plus a handful from SoKo, Germany, etc. This is where I have my beef. To me, it seems we are doing license raj on our own companies in this time of need.

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Re: Post Wuhan-Virus(Covid19) World and India

Postby anmol » 19 Apr 2020 18:46

What might affect more people than the coronavirus? Unemployment in China

Cary Huang 8 hrs ago | South China Morning Post

The most-feared outcome of the economic fallout caused by the coronavirus pandemic is mass lay-offs, as job creation and employment are key policy objectives for any government under any political system.This is all the more so for China’s ruling Communist Party, as its legitimacy of rule is largely based on its capacity to deliver growth and raise people’s living standards under an undemocratic system.However, the leadership will soon have to deal with its most severe challenge as China inevitably faces record-breaking unemployment amid an unprecedented pandemic.Even before the outbreak of Covid-19, the party was struggling to prevent the world’s second-largest economy from spiralling into a slump – risking mass lay-offs – as it tangled with rising debt, cooling domestic demand and an escalating trade war with the United States.

In the weeks before the outbreak, the Chinese authorities had made a flurry of announcements, including tax cuts and monetary policy loosening, to support small and medium-sized enterprises (SMEs) in an effort to curb fast-rising unemployment. Covid-19 has only poured more fuel on the fire of China’s burning labour market, as the pandemic had rendered at least 5 million people jobless in its first five weeks, according to official data. Beijing declared an all-out war against the disease only on January 23.

China’s official, though highly doubted, urban unemployment rate jumped to 6.2 per cent in February, the highest on record, according to the National Bureau of Statistics. That was up from 5.3 per cent in January and 5.2 per cent in December. The data, however, definitely underestimates the real joblessness picture, since it is based on the country’s 442.47 million urban workers and excludes about 300 million migrant workers, who are often more vulnerable to economic fluctuations.

Even going by government statistics, the one percentage point jump from December to February suggests an additional 5 million people thrown out of work. If the official data of 6.2 per cent completely covered China’s total workforce of about 775 million, that jump suggests at least 48 million Chinese were unemployed at the end of February. But in practice, migrant workers often have a much higher unemployment rate than their better-educated urban peers.

Despite life in China largely returning to normal after the lifting of lockdowns, most economists believe the country’s unemployment rate is much higher than official data suggests, based on subway commuter statistics from urban areas. For instance, Liu Chenjie, chief economist at fund manager Upright Asset, suggested that as many as [b]200 million people might have lost their jobs or been underemployed due to the virus.

The bigger challenge is that most job losses would have come from sectors in which large numbers of underprivileged and unskilled workers were employed. These mass lay-offs would have largely come from China’s millions of privately run SMEs, and the millions more micro businesses and self-employed people. The SME sector generates 90 per cent of employment in China, constitutes 80 per cent of its exports, and accounts for 70 per cent of its GDP.

[url]Two-thirds of SMEs said they would be unable to stay in business for more than three months, given their current cash reserves, according to two surveys respectively conducted by Tsinghua and Peking universities, and China Merchants Bank, in mid-February.[/url] The bulk of job losses would take place in China’s service sector, which has helped absorb the country’s vast army of unskilled labour and currently employs about 180 million people – including 40 million in the hospitality and retail industry and 7 million in the catering business. The sector’s employment conditions are highly dependent on consumer spending, which has been curtailed by quarantine measures and consumer caution. The pandemic has also forced many shopping malls, cinemas, fitness and gym centres, restaurants and karaoke bars to close. The second-largest workforce at risk is the country’s 180 million export-oriented jobs, due to the worldwide spread of the pandemic. Job losses in China’s manufacturing sector have already accelerated since the middle of 2018 after the Trump administration launched a tariff war against China. A UBS survey this year suggested 23 per cent of businesses in the sector had already laid off employees due to the trade war.

Despite the signing of the phase-one trade deal in January, the Trump administration has maintained punitive tariffs on nearly two-thirds of China’s exports to the US, leaving the average American tariff on Chinese goods at 19.3 per cent, up from about 3 per cent before the trade war. The global pandemic has dashed hopes for an early recovery in China’s export manufacturing.

China’s 80 million “household businesses”, which employ more than 200 million people nationwide, will be most susceptible to the shock as most of them are engaged in consumer service such as retail and eateries. Among the 20 million enterprises in China’s food and beverage industry, more than 95 per cent of them fall into that “household business” category.

Start-ups – the No 1 engine of job creation in modern economies – were hit worst. Of the companies that pulled the plug in January and February, roughly 55 per cent were start-ups under three years old. Venture capital deals have contracted more than 50 per cent since the onset of the crisis in the first two months of the year.

The pandemic is making a hard situation worse for China’s 9 million job-seeking college graduates this summer. Most companies are struggling to cut costs, and few would consider expanding their operations. And even if they are hiring, they would prefer to hire experienced people who can immediately create profits, rather than inexperienced workers fresh out of school. Job openings for university graduates plummeted 44 per cent year-on-year in February, according to Zhipin.com, a white-collar recruitment website.

During previous economic shocks – such as the Asian financial crisis in 1997 and the global financial crisis in 2007-08 – China was able to contain the rise in joblessness by ramping up stimulus measures with massive capital investment, increasing liquidity, ordering banks to lend, and demanding state-owned enterprises to refrain from lay-offs. The government is less capable of doing so now, as Covid-19 could not have come at a worse time – the economy is already saddled with structural slowdowns, high debt and slumping domestic as well as external demand. Moreover, Covid-19 is doing far more harm to the economy, and thus the job market, than any previous crisis as it cuts across almost all sectors.

This year is particularly important for China’s leadership as it aims to establish a “moderately prosperous society” under the government’s 13th Five-Year Plan and a 10-year programme that looks to double the country’s economy between 2010 and 2020.Despite the annihilation of its orthodoxy communist ideology due to its capitalistic market reform, the mandate of Communist Party rule has strengthened in recent decades amid spectacular growth and China’s rising global stature. However, massive lay-offs could cause rising discontent, increase social tensions, generate greater unrest, and fundamentally shake the legitimacy of rule in the country. ■ ■
Last edited by anmol on 19 Apr 2020 18:51, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Post Wuhan-Virus(Covid19) World and India

Postby Bart S » 19 Apr 2020 18:47

chola wrote:
Bart S wrote:
Not all the Chinese gear is bad. Govt orders tend to specify standards/certifications and would typically be different in quality from buying from any unscrupulous Chinese vendor. Chinese govt themselves have been asking that people buy only gear that is certified to their standards (no doubt worried about their fallout to their overall reputation caused by substandard stuff being sold by shady people).

Also, most of the faulty PPEs at least in India were not purchased but donated (by Jack Ma/Alibaba; need to name and shame). Doesn't make it any less reprehensible but it's not like the govt purchased low quality stuff from China in this case.

There is absolutely no point in imposing a blanket ban on a country/manufacturer as large as China and throwing the baby out with the bathwater, at least when this stuff is in short supply and desperately needed. Once we ramp up production in-house and meet all our needs, then it might make sense.


It is hard to ramp up local production when the GOI approved list includes just 3 Indian firms to 40 for Cheen plus a handful from SoKo, Germany, etc. This is where I have my beef. To me, it seems we are doing license raj on our own companies in this time of need.


You are now talking about test kits, not PPEs. China has a head-start as they have been dealing with COVID since much earlier, and these suppliers cannot be generated overnight. So it's actually the reverse of what you say, GOI could not purchase locally as there wasn't enough supply. To add to that and make matters worse, of course, there was GOI/babudom stupidity alluded to in this article by Saurav Jha:
https://theprint.in/opinion/india-covid ... on/391902/

But looks like the tide is turning and the pivot is happening, as quickly as Indian manufacturers can ramp up production. Keep in mind though that there are much deeper and longer-term supply-chain issues that have to be tackled, as a lot of the PCR machines and the reagents are still imported. That will take years, and sustained GOI initiative to develop local R&D and ecosystem, in order to be fully self sufficient.

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Re: Post Wuhan-Virus(Covid19) World and India

Postby amar_p » 19 Apr 2020 22:24

chola wrote: To me, it seems we are doing license raj on our own companies in this time of need.


It will seem that way until you check the reports where nearly 20 Indian firms submitted sample testing for qualification and 3 qualified including Mylabs. Do your homework to avoid beef. :rotfl:

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Re: Post Wuhan-Virus(Covid19) World and India

Postby madhu » 20 Apr 2020 03:22

.Germany sends China £130billion bill for 'coronavirus damages' – sparks fury in Beijing

Germany has sparked outrage in China after a major newspaper put together a £130bn invoice that Beijing "owes" Berlin following the impact of the coronavirus pandemic. Germany has followed France, the UK and the US in directing its coronavirus anger at China, where the virus originated.

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Re: Post Wuhan-Virus(Covid19) World and India

Postby sudarshan » 20 Apr 2020 03:44

milindc wrote:Few people like you propose just let the 1% die and we all will be fine. No, that 1% should not be put in harm's way because you want to have your own economic well being.


Could you point out where I said that? That's your assumption, and based on that, you're still doing your demonization of "you want your money, you don't care if people die."

The initial lockdown is justified, in the face of an unknown threat, there was no other option. And I've been giving kudos to Modi on his strong action on this front all along.

The need for further lockdowns will need to be evaluated based on data, including actual infection rates, it seems some areas of the world might actually be close to herd immunity.

That's my stance. That being the case, I found it silly that somebody would say to me "if you don't agree that we need lockdowns, you should go treat the 1%" (you did say this to me in an earlier page of this thread, although the current post which I responded to was addressed to somebody else).

Even those who argue for more lockdowns, accept that those 1% are still going to die, just at a slower rate. The lockdown itself is to avoid overwhelming the healthcare system. If a part of the world, (I think NYC or some areas of northern Italy would qualify, though this is just my opinion) has already got to the herd immunity stage, then a lockdown there is pointless, except to restrict entry and exit so as not to alter the population profile.

So while the current lockdown is going on, the need is to honestly gather and evaluate data, not keep driving emotional arguments. Especially given that there are several countries which got things under control without lockdowns (not talking about Sweden here, Sweden is still a case in progress, need to see how it works out).

EDIT: My last on this in this thread, there are much more urgent priorities here than me explaining my stance. If you really want to continue this conversation, please find one of the nukkad threads, a post or two there would be better than wasting bandwidth here. Else, let's just let it go.
Last edited by sudarshan on 20 Apr 2020 05:01, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Post Wuhan-Virus(Covid19) World and India

Postby SriKumar » 20 Apr 2020 03:51

madhu wrote:.Germany sends China £130billion bill for 'coronavirus damages' – sparks fury in Beijing

Germany has sparked outrage in China after a major newspaper put together a £130bn invoice that Beijing "owes" Berlin following the impact of the coronavirus pandemic. Germany has followed France, the UK and the US in directing its coronavirus anger at China, where the virus originated.
THe headline is click-bait. 'Germany' has not sent CHina anyything. The article above is a story in a Brit paper of an opinion piece/editorial in a German newspaper named Bild ('billed' as a tabloid :D ). Govt. of Germany has not billed anyone. I am sure it reflects the thoughts of many German people (which is fine) but nothing about this is from actual govt. officials (atleast from what I could gather in the UK article about the German newspaper article.

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Re: Post Wuhan-Virus(Covid19) World and India

Postby g.sarkar » 20 Apr 2020 04:15

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/ ... 000-deaths
Trump warns China over Covid-19 outbreak as Europe approaches 100,000 deaths
President said there should be consequences if Beijing was ‘knowingly responsible’ for pandemic
Alison Rourke and agencies, Sun 19 Apr 2020

Donald Trump has warned that China should face consequences if it was “knowingly responsible” for the coronavirus pandemic, as deaths in Europe from Covid-19 approached 100,000.
“It could have been stopped in China before it started and it wasn’t, and the whole world is suffering because of it,” Trump said in his daily White House briefing, as US cases topped 730,000 and fatalities in the country approached 39,000. “If it was a mistake, a mistake is a mistake. But if they were knowingly responsible, yeah, I mean, then sure there should be consequences,” Trump said. He did not elaborate on what form that might take. He said the Chinese were “embarrassed” and the question now was whether what happened with the coronavirus was “a mistake that got out of control, or was it done deliberately?” “There’s a big difference between those two,” he said.
On Sunday China reported just 16 new confirmed coronavirus cases, its lowest number since 17 March and down from 27 a day earlier. No new deaths were reported. During the White House briefing, Trump interrupted his coronavirus response coordinator, Deborah Birx, who was showing a comparison of deaths per 100,000 people in a range of countries, to say he didn’t believe China and Iran’s stated fatalities. “Does anybody really believe these figures?” he asked.
Birx, who has steered clear of political aspects of Trump’s contentious briefings, also questioned China’s data, including that the country’s death rate per 100,000 people was far below major European countries and the US. She called China’s numbers “unrealistic” and said it had a “moral obligation” to provide credible information. European countries, who she said alerted the US to the seriousness of the virus, including its significant impact on people with underlying health symptoms. Deaths in Europe were expected to pass 100,000 on Sunday – more than 62% of global fatalities from the virus.
.....
Gautam

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Re: Post Wuhan-Virus(Covid19) World and India

Postby Lohit » 20 Apr 2020 05:14

CCP seems to be losing control of the narrative, despite valiant attempts from its pets - CNN, BBC, WaPo, NYT...

Maybe they should consider outsourcing Ingris plopaganda to Ghafoora?

On that note, #WeMissYouAsifGhafoor is trending on Pox Twitter. Have internal power struggles started already? Maybe Niazi's replacement has been identified.

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Re: Post Wuhan-Virus(Covid19) World and India

Postby Lohit » 20 Apr 2020 17:57

Turkey Blocks Several Saudi and U.A.E. News Websites

(Or, shitstorm gathers pace)

https://www.bloomberg.com/amp/news/arti ... ssion=true

Turkey blocked more than a dozen websites linked to Saudi Arabia and United Arab Emirates in retaliation against a similar step by Saudi authorities, in a further sign of the strained ties between the Middle East’s largest economies.

The state-run Saudi Press Agency and Emirates News Agency, as well as the Abu-Dhabi-based Sky News Arabia and Saudi-backed Independent Turkish were among the blocked news outlets as of Sunday, according to information on the website of Turkey’s Information and Communication Technologies Authority.

Turkey’s state-run Anadolu Agency reported last week that Saudi authorities had blocked access to its website and that of the Arabic outlet of the national public broadcaster TRT.

President Recep Tayyip Erdogan’s backing of former Egyptian President Mohamed Morsi and other Muslim Brotherhood-inspired movements prompted Saudi Arabia, the U.A.E. and Egypt to form an anti-Turkey bloc. The two sides are on opposite ends of the conflict in Libya and the Saudi-led embargo against Qatar. Ties deteriorated further with the murder of Saudi critic Jamal Khashoggi in the kingdom’s consulate in Istanbul in 2018.

Pak sures loves a 3 way,

Exhibit A: Ga@@@ with US, China
Exhibit B: Ditto with GCC, Neo Caliphate

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Re: Post Wuhan-Virus(Covid19) World and India

Postby Atmavik » 20 Apr 2020 23:12

Coronavirus: Virgin Australia eyed by three Chinese airlines for rescue deal

https://7news.com.au/news/aviation/coro ... l-c-984678

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Re: Post Wuhan-Virus(Covid19) World and India

Postby vijayk » 21 Apr 2020 02:15

https://www.businesstoday.in/current/ec ... 01462.html

1,000 foreign firms mull production in India, 300 actively pursue plan as 'Exit China' mantra grows
These companies see India as an alternate manufacturing hub and have taken up their proposals across various levels of the government, including central government departments, Indian missions abroad and state industry departments


Amid chances of China possibly losing its tag of preferred manufacturing hub following coronavirus, around 1,000 foreign companies are engaged in discussions at various levels with the Indian authorities. At least 300 of these companies are actively pursuing production plans in sectors such as mobiles, electronics, medical devices, textiles and synthetic fabric, according to top government sources.

These companies see India as an alternate manufacturing hub and have taken up their proposals across various levels of the government, including central government departments, Indian missions abroad and state industry departments. "About 1,000-odd companies are currently engaged in discussion at various levels such as investment promotion cell, central government departments and state governments. Out of these companies, we are targeting 300-odd companies," the official said.

"We are hopeful that once coronavirus is in control, a lot of things will fructify into actual relocation. And India will emerge as an alternate manufacturing destination. Many countries like Japan, US and South Korea are over-dependent on China and that is now very apparent," he added.

In a major push to domestic manufacturing, the Centre had in September last year slashed corporate tax to 25.17 per cent. For new manufacturers, the applicable tax was brought down to 17 per cent making it the lowest in South East Asia. Together with reduced tax rate and the roll-out of goods and services tax (GST), India hopes to attract sizeable foreign investment in the manufacturing sector.

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Re: Post Wuhan-Virus(Covid19) World and India

Postby vimal » 21 Apr 2020 02:30

"1,000 foreign firms mull production in India, 300 actively pursue plan"

keyword is "mull". It's like signing MoUs that everybody forgets about before the week is over.

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Re: Post Wuhan-Virus(Covid19) World and India

Postby g.sarkar » 21 Apr 2020 02:38

Atmavik wrote:Coronavirus: Virgin Australia eyed by three Chinese airlines for rescue deal
https://7news.com.au/news/aviation/coro ... l-c-984678

In lizard culture virgins are greatly prized. West is greatly weakened by the China virus and many such companies may be up for a fire sale.
Gautam

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Re: Post Wuhan-Virus(Covid19) World and India

Postby vijayk » 21 Apr 2020 06:20

https://insightful.co.in/2020/04/19/wor ... e-unaware/
WORLD WAR III HAS BEGUN AND WE ARE UNAWARE
BY SANDOMINA POSTED ON APRIL 19, 2020

Most of the Earthlings keep looking at the happenings in the Middle East, in horror. We assume, and many times are made to believe, that any time this conflict may spill over to the other regions of the world, making way for World War III. If we thought that the 21st-century World War would be fought, just like the previous two wars, then we are sadly mistaken. In fact, without our awareness, World War III has already begun. This is a long drawn war, which would last for a couple of decades. The war can be divided into three phases:

Phase 1 – Masquerading
Phase 2 – Utter Chaos
Phase 3 – Subjugation


CONSOLIDATION – THE PREPARATORY PHASE

Soon into the 21st century, China started consolidating its position in various fields. The United States and the rest of the world were busy with the conflicts in West Asia. This kept the attention away from China. China remained focused on its goals and never took part in any peacekeeping force, or conflict resolution. China quietly kept spreading its wings in Africa, Australia, N & S America, and The South China Sea, militarily and economically. It was building Islands and military bases in the disputed South China Sea with impunity, adding to China’s economic and military reach. China’s purchase of mines and rare earth deposits, all over the world, was considered an innocuous investment. However, no one realized that China was building the capacity, which could choke crucial supplies to any country, which didn’t tow its line. In 2015 alone, China invested over $60 billion in Africa. By 2018, the staggering figure had reached over $299 billion. China further strengthened its position by doling out loans for infrastructure and other projects to gullible countries like Sri Lanka, Bangladesh, Cuba, Ukraine, Venezuela, Ecuador, Djibouti, Kyrgyzstan, Laos, the Maldives, Mongolia, Montenegro, Pakistan, and Tajikistan. China is the sole lender in the world, who hopes, not to get the loans paid back. Nonpayment of loans, facilitates China in acquiring ports, airfields, and State-run companies, of defaulting countries, at a bargain price. This also gives China a foothold, in far-flung lands, which would be crucial, if and when, the hostilities break out.


Image

HE TRANSITION

Today China has achieved all the aims of ‘Phase 1’. It is the number two economy in the world. It is technologically superior to most nations, and psychologically controlling the thoughts of every policymaker across the globe. In the year 2016, Chinese Premier Xi Jinping had indicated China’s readiness to move to ‘Phase 2’, he stated: “China has become a crucial factor in changing the world political and economic outlay. We need to work harder to turn our monetary strength into international institutional authority.” Is China preparing itself to implement the principle of: Exchange the roles of Host and Guest(Usurp leadership in a situation where you are normally subordinate)? However, the latest spread of pandemic, may force China to rethink its strategy. The sharp power is not working for China. The time may not be ripe for ‘Phase 2’. The world is waiting with bated breath, what would be China’s next move, and when would China undermine the superior American military, a very advanced American technology, the universal reserve currency US dollar, and the American’s world leadership position

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Re: Post Wuhan-Virus(Covid19) World and India

Postby Varoon Shekhar » 21 Apr 2020 07:19

Interesting- India has a higher share of world manufacturing output, than Mexico, France and Italy. Many people wouldn't guess that! Still, there's a long distance to cover.

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Re: Post Wuhan-Virus(Covid19) World and India

Postby Raveen » 21 Apr 2020 07:53

Varoon Shekhar wrote:Interesting- India has a higher share of world manufacturing output, than Mexico, France and Italy. Many people wouldn't guess that! Still, there's a long distance to cover.


Unfortunately, very little is exported unlike those countries you mentioned, a lot of our manufacturing is small or medium scale enterprise, and not exported/exportable due to quality control issues that come from being a small shop. Plus being a very large population, our domestic consumption is much higher than those countries.

Of course, where we are kicking ass is auto manufacturing, but if you believe the California Tesla dream, that's a dying industry and China holds the strings to the electric car battery supply.

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Re: Post Wuhan-Virus(Covid19) World and India

Postby yensoy » 21 Apr 2020 10:00

For the most part, our industries are assembling, not manufacturing. Even those manufacturing aren't really doing the R&D work, instead buying designs, plans and machinery from abroad. Not to say that we don't do any R&D or manufacturing but it isn't as big a component of our industrial production as it is in other countries.

So besides increasing the quantity of manufacturing in our country, we also need to improve the quality.

BTW, assembly jobs are jobs and much needed in our country. But our workers may need to compete against robots which are more precise, repeatable and work 24/7.

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Re: Post Wuhan-Virus(Covid19) World and India

Postby chola » 21 Apr 2020 14:40

India has best get ready for this. The anti-globalization trend that began with Trump's trade war has started "on-shoring" but the Chinese virus is accelerating this.

We need to bring manufacturing into India ASAP. The IT wallahs can't survive forever doing work for someone else.

https://m.economictimes.com/tech/ites/companies-move-jobs-away-from-india-as-coronavirus-shakes-up-back-offices/articleshow/75266407.cms


Companies move jobs away from India as coronavirus shakes up back offices
AFP | Updated: Apr 21, 2020, 01.12 PM IST

Coronavirus is permanently shaking up the global outsourcing industry as lockdowns from Bangalore to Manila prompt firms to " reshore" jobs and, with AI, to move further away from needing humans at all.

Restrictions on normal activity in these countries and others have created a logistical nightmare for the managers of call centres and other back-office operations for foreign corporations.

Having their staff work from home is difficult because of rules governing the handling of sensitive material such as financial transactions for bank customers from Scotland to San Francisco.


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Re: Post Wuhan-Virus(Covid19) World and India

Postby chola » 21 Apr 2020 14:57

Raveen wrote:
Varoon Shekhar wrote:Interesting- India has a higher share of world manufacturing output, than Mexico, France and Italy. Many people wouldn't guess that! Still, there's a long distance to cover.


Unfortunately, very little is exported unlike those countries you mentioned, a lot of our manufacturing is small or medium scale enterprise, and not exported/exportable due to quality control issues that come from being a small shop. Plus being a very large population, our domestic consumption is much higher than those countries.

Of course, where we are kicking ass is auto manufacturing, but if you believe the California Tesla dream, that's a dying industry and China holds the strings to the electric car battery supply.


Not having much exports means the de-globalization trend harms us less than say Cheen since we do not depend on trade to the same degree.

But we do need globalization in forms of remittance and back office/IT outsourcing to gain foreign exchange And we need forex because India is energy and resource deficient. Unless we can print money that is popular as legal tender by other nations access to foreign currency (especially the Euro and Dollar) is a necessity.

If those current sources of forex are threatened then we some other ways of gaining foreign currencies. Agriculture is a possibility but in our case, it is as fickled as the monsoon season. To develop as a nation we must be able to export industrial goods that can compete.

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Re: Post Wuhan-Virus(Covid19) World and India

Postby g.sarkar » 21 Apr 2020 15:15

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/21/worl ... k-39404b66
Trump plans to halt immigration, and defends testing capacity.
President Trump said on Monday that he intended to close the United States to people trying to immigrate into the country to live and work, his most wide-ranging attempt yet to seal the country off from the rest of the world.
In recent weeks, the Trump administration has said health concerns justified moving swiftly to bar asylum seekers and undocumented immigrants from entering the country, alarming immigration activists who have said that Mr. Trump and his advisers were using a global pandemic to further hard-line immigration policies.
Mr. Trump also defended his administration’s handling of coronavirus testing, saying the nation had excess capacity even as some governors insisted that they lacked crucial materials, including nasal swabs and chemical reagents.
......
Gautam

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Re: Post Wuhan-Virus(Covid19) World and India

Postby kancha » 22 Apr 2020 23:36

Shared some thoughts on the Post COVID-19 World.

Blog Link
Twitter Link

Even though the world is busy fighting the immediate fight – against the virus itself, let me offer a statement: THE WORLD AS WE KNOW IT, HAS CHANGED.

Yes, plz read the above statement once again and ponder over it for a few moments.

Yes, you read it right. The world has already changed. What form this changed world takes, remains to be seen and will be apparent soon, maybe even within the next 6 to 8 months, once the immediate danger of the virus itself has passed.

The new world may find itself doing China’s bidding for all we know, or it may find China on its knees, it may see the West weaken, or even a slow motion break-up of the European Union itself, Middle-East may yet go back to desertification and Japan emerge as a manufacturing hub.

Point is, that it took world shaking events like two devastating world wars with a failed League of Nations in-between and a long and protracted Cold War to arrive at the current world order.


Bottomline: China has well and truly gone about accumulating a lot of bad karma from everyone, right from governments of the world to the average citizens on the streets.

This is bound to come back to bite them, once the dust settles.

They know it too.

And are rattled.

With good reason.

Because they can already see it starting to happen. There is ever growing talk of moving manufacturing out of China. But this talk this time is different from similar talks a few months earlier. Where earlier, in the early days of the pandemic, people were only concerned with creating redundancies in case of a similar disruption in future, this time they are pursuing it with far more vigour due to pure disgust with the way China has mishandled the entire thing.


Jumping a few months ahead, it is safe to say that the Chinese economy will be amongst the MOST affected ones, globally, with immense contraction coming their way. Remember, this pandemic will only accelerate the process already put into motion by the recent US-China trade war.

On the strategic front, once the world recovers, it will make good efforts to recover the ground it has had to cede to the Middle Kingdom. It may not be a far fetched theory if one says this time round there might actually be a shooting war, even if localized, in the South China Sea, esp once the US Navy moves back in. Heck, things are already being put into motion even as I type this.


Now about India.

I see this pandemic and its aftermath as an opportunity which, if exploited tactfully, will help improve her geopolitical standing as well as economy. As it is, India is stated to be perhaps the ONLY major world economy which will post a positive GDP growth for this financial year, even if it is less than 1.5 percent. Remember, this, when China and the US will CONTRACT by more than 5% each.


The biggest factor in this, IMO, is a China that is not only majorly weakened economically / geopolitically, but also facing AWAY from India, as it grapples with the US and rest of the Western world.

With Chinese economy contracting and thereafter growing slower than what has been the norm, it WILL mellow them down across the Himalayan borders, atleast in the short term.

This is partly due to the increased focus of West on China, as also due to the fact that India has so far played a very benign role as compared to the rest of the world when it comes to calling out China for its role in creating this entire mess.


What I am looking at, is the fact that a weak China and a Pakistan virtually on the brink of default with a Saudi Arabia / UAE etc UNABLE to park free and surplus dollars into their banks to ‘shore’ their finances. Top it up with drastically reduced remittance from their workforce in the middle east as they themselves stare at empty coffers and you will get my drift.

Then their is their ‘all weather’ ally, China, who is itself going to be ‘under the weather’ for a long time, and the situation isn’t exactly worth the celebrations that they are having at the mere deference of loan repayments.

A Pakistan in this state is vulnerable as well as dangerous. Herein lies a challenge as well as an opportunity for India. Once again, I’ll leave the rest to your imagination, without delving much into it at this moment.


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Re: Post Wuhan-Virus(Covid19) World and India

Postby greatde » 23 Apr 2020 00:14

Unless, a suitable alternative is prepared and established, its all wishful thinking. After all, big businesses prefer profits and efficiency, and we dont have a solid structure to offer them. They can happily work with dictators and no political preference.

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Re: Post Wuhan-Virus(Covid19) World and India

Postby DavidD » 23 Apr 2020 03:01

Why do so many people think COVID will speed up reshoring? Reshoring is happening mostly from AI/robotics eliminating the need for cheap labor, i.e. economic concerns, I don't see how COVID changes that.

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Re: Post Wuhan-Virus(Covid19) World and India

Postby Raveen » 23 Apr 2020 03:12

DavidD wrote:Why do so many people think COVID will speed up reshoring? Reshoring is happening mostly from AI/robotics eliminating the need for cheap labor, i.e. economic concerns, I don't see how COVID changes that.



Reshoring was happening largely in manufacturing thanks to trade wars etc - the supply chain vulnerability COVID has exposed will only expedite this. Secretary of State is on record saying as much. Especially true for core and strategic manufacturing.They are going to try and move entire supply chains on-shore.

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Re: Post Wuhan-Virus(Covid19) World and India

Postby DavidD » 23 Apr 2020 04:39

Raveen wrote:
DavidD wrote:Why do so many people think COVID will speed up reshoring? Reshoring is happening mostly from AI/robotics eliminating the need for cheap labor, i.e. economic concerns, I don't see how COVID changes that.



Reshoring was happening largely in manufacturing thanks to trade wars etc - the supply chain vulnerability COVID has exposed will only expedite this. Secretary of State is on record saying as much. Especially true for core and strategic manufacturing.They are going to try and move entire supply chains on-shore.


At least in the US reshoring was happening well before the trade war due to AI/robotics. I'm not aware of any significant acceleration due to the trade war. Do you have articles with some data suggesting that?

As far as core/strategic manufacturing, possibly, we'll see how much that happens. It'll take a lot of political will particularly in the likely economic environment the post-COVID world will be in. Where will countries even find the people to develop an entire supply chain? Take the US for example, unemployment was at a decades-low prior to COVID, and most who are laid off are in the service industry. How many American are gonna be willing to do tedious factory work even if those who are in services can be retrained?

Tech is the way forward for all countries IMO as far as manufacturing is concerned. The manual labor intensive jobs are going the way of the dodo bird, the only ones left in abundance will be ones that no one in a western country would be willing to do.

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Re: Post Wuhan-Virus(Covid19) World and India

Postby anmol » 23 Apr 2020 14:59

On China's Official Arabic-Language TV: COVID-19 Does Not Appear to Have Originated in China
•17 Apr 2020

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Re: Post Wuhan-Virus(Covid19) World and India

Postby Atmavik » 24 Apr 2020 07:31

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... orld-order

“The U.S., by having the U.S. dollar as the world’s reserve currency and having the world’s bank that produces that currency, and by having the power to put these needed dollars in the hands of Americans, can help Americans more effectively than other countries’ governments can help their own citizens. At the same time the U.S. risks losing this privileged position by creating too much money and debt.”

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Re: Post Wuhan-Virus(Covid19) World and India

Postby g.sarkar » 24 Apr 2020 08:37

Did we miss this?
https://www.navytimes.com/news/your-nav ... hing-boat/
Hanoi: Chinese ship rams, sinks Vietnamese fishing boat
Hau Dinh, The Associated Press, March 8, 2019

Discovery Reef is an elliptical ring of submerged rocks that run about 17 miles long from east to west and four miles north to south. It's part of the Paracel Islands, an archipelago of shoals, banks, islets and cays in the South China Sea that are occupied or controlled by Beijing but with rival territorial claims lodged by Vietnam and Taiwan. Nearby Discovery Reef is the planet's largest known sinkhole, the "Dragon Hole." (Navy Times)

HANOI, Vietnam — A Vietnamese fishing boat capsized after being rammed by a Chinese vessel in the South China Sea’s contested Paracel Islands, a Vietnamese official said Friday. China said its boat came upon the fishing vessel after it started sinking and sought help for the crew.
The boat was fishing near Discovery Reef when the incident occurred Wednesday, said the Vietnamese official, who spoke on condition of anonymity because he is not authorized to speak to the press. The Paracel archipelago is claimed by both Vietnam and China, which took control of the islands in 1974. An online report by the newspaper Tuoi Tre said the five crewmen aboard the Vietnamese boat clung to the bow of their upturned vessel for two hours until they were rescued by another Vietnamese fishing boat.
The official Chinese Communist Party newspaper reported that a Chinese government vessel received a distress call from a Vietnamese fishing boat and sailed to the area, where it found the boat partly sunk. The online report, quoting Chinese Foreign Ministry spokesman Lu Kang, said the Chinese ship immediately contacted China’s maritime search and rescue center to dispatch a rescue vessel and the five Vietnamese fishermen were rescued.
....
Gautam

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Re: Post Wuhan-Virus(Covid19) World and India

Postby Leonard » 25 Apr 2020 00:14

The Russians are starting to drop the hammer .. After Luc Montaigner -- The realization is starting to SINK in ..

https://twitter.com/Chellaney/status/1253583668628475906

The WUHAN -- lab was manipulating the VIRUS in typical chinese "innovation" pattern -- COPY and REPLICATE -- without too much THINKING ..

copy CORONA + add HIV = Chinese Virus

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Re: Post Wuhan-Virus(Covid19) World and India

Postby panduranghari » 25 Apr 2020 00:16

madhu wrote:.Germany sends China £130billion bill for 'coronavirus damages' – sparks fury in Beijing

Germany has sparked outrage in China after a major newspaper put together a £130bn invoice that Beijing "owes" Berlin following the impact of the coronavirus pandemic. Germany has followed France, the UK and the US in directing its coronavirus anger at China, where the virus originated.


Lets have a bit of schadenfreude. Everyone knows China wont pay a penny. Nevertheless the sending of bill to China is in a way a signal that China can probably afford to pay the bill. I do not think they would ask any other countries if the problem would have originated there. Heck we even did not pursue blighty to give us reparations for the WW2.

Whoever is able to keep the maximum people alive at the end of the pandemic will win this war. Demographics is everything. A lot of elders in the west are dying away and these were the people who are taking a bulk of government handouts. This means the pension systems which are perennially underfunded may have a respite, provided the currency system survives. The US fed has printed $487500000000 in the last 6 months. We are facing an epic depression. India will suffer like all others. But we need to keep people alive if we want to come out of this strong.

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Re: Post Wuhan-Virus(Covid19) World and India

Postby nam » 25 Apr 2020 00:35

Raveen wrote:
Varoon Shekhar wrote:Interesting- India has a higher share of world manufacturing output, than Mexico, France and Italy. Many people wouldn't guess that! Still, there's a long distance to cover.


Unfortunately, very little is exported unlike those countries you mentioned, a lot of our manufacturing is small or medium scale enterprise, and not exported/exportable due to quality control issues that come from being a small shop. Plus being a very large population, our domestic consumption is much higher than those countries.

Of course, where we are kicking ass is auto manufacturing, but if you believe the California Tesla dream, that's a dying industry and China holds the strings to the electric car battery supply.


I generally look at the details of what exactly Chinese export. Their 2nd or 3rd biggest export item, by value, is heater and headphones! The Chinese makes money by sheer scale.

The true manufacturing powerhouse of this world: US,Japan & Germany. They are powerhouse, because of their obsession with technology. They invest in to technology. They will do whatever it takes to be the leader in tech.

The Chinese are learning from that.


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