Post Wuhan-Virus(Covid19) World and India

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Y. Kanan
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Re: Post Wuhan-Virus(Covid19) World and India

Postby Y. Kanan » 26 Apr 2020 10:05

While we dither over ending the lockdown and police harass old ladies trying to sell veggies on the street, it turns out some other countries never bought into the fearmongering and ... they're doing just fine. No overwhelmed healthcare system, no anarchy, no mass death toll. When this is all over with, a lot of people, especially in India, are going to realize just how far overboard we went with all this, how unnecessary it was, and how badly we screwed ourselves by our collective overreaction.

Far more will die indirectly from this country's overzealous response to coronavirus than ever would have been killed from the virus itself.
Coronavirus: How Sweden avoided a lockdown
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-52395866

The same story has played out in other nations, too. Mexico and Brazil are good examples because like us, they're poor and short of doctors. Even more than Sweden, these countries essentially ignored coronavirus, opting for voluntary social distancing and stopping large gatherings for now. They did not do anything close to what we did, but appear to be suffering about the same death rate as everybody else. That is to say, not much of a death toll at all, certainly not in the grand scheme of things.

The short version is we didn't have to destroy our economy and plunge the world into a new Great Depression. This will become embarrassingly clear in the months ahead, if govts and media around the world choose to be honest about this.

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Re: Post Wuhan-Virus(Covid19) World and India

Postby Karan M » 26 Apr 2020 10:12

Swedens population vis a vis India's. Its mortality rate even so. Its population density. Can you guys realize the limits of your awareness and stop second guessing the ICMR?

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Re: Post Wuhan-Virus(Covid19) World and India

Postby hanumadu » 26 Apr 2020 10:37

Y. Kanan wrote:While we dither over ending the lockdown and police harass old ladies trying to sell veggies on the street, it turns out some other countries never bought into the fearmongering and ... they're doing just fine. No overwhelmed healthcare system, no anarchy, no mass death toll. When this is all over with, a lot of people, especially in India, are going to realize just how far overboard we went with all this, how unnecessary it was, and how badly we screwed ourselves by our collective overreaction.

Far more will die indirectly from this country's overzealous response to coronavirus than ever would have been killed from the virus itself.
Coronavirus: How Sweden avoided a lockdown
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-52395866

The same story has played out in other nations, too. Mexico and Brazil are good examples because like us, they're poor and short of doctors. Even more than Sweden, these countries essentially ignored coronavirus, opting for voluntary social distancing and stopping large gatherings for now. They did not do anything close to what we did, but appear to be suffering about the same death rate as everybody else. That is to say, not much of a death toll at all, certainly not in the grand scheme of things.

The short version is we didn't have to destroy our economy and plunge the world into a new Great Depression. This will become embarrassingly clear in the months ahead, if govts and media around the world choose to be honest about this.


https://thehill.com/policy/international/americas/494643-brazilian-medical-officials-warn-of-hospital-overload-as

https://apnews.com/79e0b8e164c032844468513683f1723b

RIO DE JANEIRO (AP) — Cases of the new coronavirus are overwhelming hospitals, morgues and cemeteries across Brazil as Latin America’s largest nation veers closer to becoming one of the world’s pandemic hot spots.

Medical officials in Rio de Janeiro and at least four other major cities have warned that their hospital systems are on the verge of collapse, or already too overwhelmed to take any more patients.

Health experts expect the number of infections in the country of 211 million people will be much higher than what has been reported because of insufficient, delayed testing.

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Re: Post Wuhan-Virus(Covid19) World and India

Postby RamSuresh » 26 Apr 2020 11:30

Sweeden, Mexico and Brazil have done better than us?

These kind of statements are rock bottom quality for BRF.

Sweden has 400 times the death rate as India, Brazil 30 times and Mexico 15 times.

The news article itself is bad enough. Our masochism on top of that is even more embarrassing.

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Re: Post Wuhan-Virus(Covid19) World and India

Postby Deans » 26 Apr 2020 15:41

Sweden has more cases and deaths than its neighbors - Norway, Denmark and Finland combined.
Their population density is a fraction of India's - one of the lowest in the world (by default they have social distancing).
They had a very high proportion of work from home, even before this crisis.
Yet, Sweden's deaths per million - in one of the most affluent societies on earth, with medical care decades ahead of us, is 217 per million -
India is 0.6 per million (300 times less). If Sweden had India's population their death toll would be 250,000

Brazil has a death rate 30 times higher than us. Mexico apparently has a death toll only 15 times higher than India (per million), but that's because of limited testing (20% of tests are positive). Much as I dislike the economic cost of the lockdown in India and feel it could have been handled better, I don't see an alternative.

chola
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Re: Post Wuhan-Virus(Covid19) World and India

Postby chola » 26 Apr 2020 16:18

Da chinqs and da krouts are coming back online. The post-Wuhan world is feeling like the pre-Wuhan world.

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/daimler-says-china-business-picks-093225898.html

Daimler says China business picks up again - report
ReutersApril 26, 2020, 5:32 AM EDT

BERLIN (Reuters) - Mercedes-Benz maker Daimler has seen business stabilise in China after the country ended coronavirus lockdowns, a senior manager at the German carmaker told a newspaper on Sunday.

"In China alone, we sold around 50,000 vehicles again in March. That makes us confident,", said Markus Schaefer, managing board member for production, told Bild am Sonntag newspaper.

Mercedes-Benz delivered a total of approximately 477,400 passenger cars worldwide between January and March. The report did not say how many of those went to customers in China, who bought 694,200 Mercedes-Benz cars last year, 29% of total sales.

Starting Monday, cars are set to roll off Daimler's assembly line again in Germany. The Sindelfingen and Bremen passenger-car plants will start production of E- and S-Class vehicles.

China is the largest market for the S-Class built in Sindelfingen. Normally several hundred vehicles roll off the assembly line in Sindelfingen every day.
...

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Re: Post Wuhan-Virus(Covid19) World and India

Postby Rsatchi » 26 Apr 2020 18:25

RamSuresh wrote:Sweeden[/b], Mexico and Brazil have [b]done better than us?

These kind of statements are rock bottom quality for BRF.

Sweden has 400 times the death rate as India, Brazil 30 times and Mexico 15 times.

The news article itself is bad enough. Our masochism on top of that is even more embarrassing.

Swedish Deputy PM on Andrew Marr show this morning: explaining why 'one size wont fit all' and there should be 'Horses for courses' I.e., each country has to look at its own demographics, resources etc to control the pandemic.
People should desist from dissing the GOI just like the BIFs and Liberandus

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Re: Post Wuhan-Virus(Covid19) World and India

Postby Avtar Singh » 26 Apr 2020 19:09

Sweden is a totally stupid country full of stupid people…..
soon to be first islamic country in europe.

I have a colleague (Swedish origin), very capable originally, whose brain is totally addled by Fake Liberal/Islamic/Communist nonsense

I loved my saab 900 turbo, back in the day and fell for swedish propaganda.
Then I had the pleasure of working with these people in the 90s..
In a technical field…………..
my conclusion; OMG you people are useless and stupid!!

they were also at the forefront of slagging off India over human waste rights
over the decades.

I hope I live long enough to see ISIS (ISh#t) flag raised over that country….
Watched 4 overweight, walrus bearded, middle aged swedish men pontificate on being first Europeans with Ish#t in their country… cannot find video now.

The Grim Truth About the “Swedish Model”
Hans Bergstrom


https://www.project-syndicate.org/comme ... om-2020-04


https://www.melaniephillips.com/ghastly ... oup-think/



I am sure the GOI and India is doing the best it can in very difficult circumstances…
with the western media on attack at every opportunity aby aided by the sundry t#rds in India

Gerard
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Re: Post Wuhan-Virus(Covid19) World and India

Postby Gerard » 26 Apr 2020 19:15

Half of Sweden's households are made up of a single person. Combine that with population density and you have a pretty unique situation.

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Re: Post Wuhan-Virus(Covid19) World and India

Postby ldev » 26 Apr 2020 19:20

Predicting whether the Swedish model is correct or in-correct is like trying to predict the outcome of WW2 in Europe in July 1940, one month after the Dunkirk evacuation or the outcome of WW2 in the Pacific on December 31, 1941, a few weeks after Pearl Harbor. As of now 87% of deaths in Sweden are people over the age of 70 and another 8% are people between 60-70. A year from today we will know whose strategy was optimal.

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Re: Post Wuhan-Virus(Covid19) World and India

Postby g.sarkar » 26 Apr 2020 23:24

https://www.freepressjournal.in/busines ... ph-forever
COVID-19 Newsletter: Remittance Economy set to morph forever
By Shekhar Ghosh, Saturday, April 25, 2020

India’s remittances from abroad are expected to fall to $64 billion in 2020 from $ 83 billion the previous year. Globally, remittances are projected to decline sharply by about 20 per cent this year due to the economic crisis induced by the COVID-19 pandemic and shutdown.
By now the inevitability of a diving recessionary economy for the world, and India is evident to all of us, loud and clear. Have we even considered the changes that this pandemic is bringing to the migratory economy of the world. “In India, remittances are projected to fall by about 23 per cent in 2020, to USD 64 billion – a striking contrast with the growth of 5.5 percent and receipts of USD 83 billion seen in 2019,” the World Bank said in a report on impact of COVID-19 on migration and remittances. The projected fall, which would be the sharpest decline in recent history, is largely due to a fall in the wages and employment of migrant workers, who tend to be more vulnerable to loss of employment and wages during an economic crisis in a host country, the bank said. Globally remittances are projected to decline sharply by about 20 per cent this year due to the economic crisis induced by the COVID-19 pandemic and shutdown. Remittance flows are expected to fall across the world, most notably in Europe and Central Asia (27.5 per cent), followed by Sub-Saharan Africa (23.1 per cent), South Asia (22.1 per cent), the Middle East and North Africa (19.6 per cent), Latin America and the Caribbean (19.3 per cent), and East Asia and the Pacific (13 per cent).
Remittances, a vital part of economy Human mobility has been a core tenet of the unprecedented economic growth of the last 100 years and is critical to our global economy.
Remittances are a vital source of income for developing countries. Remittances help families afford food, healthcare, and basic needs. The ongoing economic recession caused by COVID-19 is taking a severe toll on the ability to send money home. So it is as imperative and vital for the advanced economies to recover – and recover fast – as it is for our own national economy. India receives the highest remittance from the middle east followed closely by the United States. In fact, the economy of Kerala is largely driven by foreign remittances. Remittance flows are expected to fall across the world, most notably in Europe and Central Asia (27.5 per cent), followed by Sub-Saharan Africa (23.1 per cent), South Asia (22.1 per cent), the Middle East and North Africa (19.6 per cent), Latin America and the Caribbean (19.3 per cent), and East Asia and the Pacific (13 per cent). Human mobility has been a core tenet of the unprecedented economic growth of the last 100 years and is critical to our global economy. Today, there are almost 1 billion migrants worldwide. Of these, 272 million have crossed international borders, and recent estimates suggest that three-fourths of these international migrants are of working age between 20 and 40 years.
.....
Gautam

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Re: Post Wuhan-Virus(Covid19) World and India

Postby Y. Kanan » 27 Apr 2020 06:01

RamSuresh wrote:Sweeden, Mexico and Brazil have done better than us?

These kind of statements are rock bottom quality for BRF.

Sweden has 400 times the death rate as India, Brazil 30 times and Mexico 15 times.

The news article itself is bad enough. Our masochism on top of that is even more embarrassing.


So what? We're still talking about a relatively small # of deaths. Thousands of Indians die every day! Were you not aware of this? For all your doom and gloom about Sweden, Brazil, Mexico, it's already clear that coronavirus will not become the leading cause of death (or even in the top 10) as a result of the pandemic. Wow such a scary virus; it's not even going to come close to road deaths in any country, especially India! So have some perspective. Use your head! Most of you on BR, normally a pretty cynical and realistic group of people, are behaving like scared children. Our entire country and most of the world is behaving like scared children.

Look, I hate the Chinese as much as any of you, but most of you have allowed your dislike of China to color your judgement on this virus and the threat it actually poses. Coronavirus gives us an excuse to bash China and reduce their domination in many sectors of our economy (mostly electronics) and to cast them as an enemy. Yes, China is an enemy. We should reduce China's economic footprint here. Yes, we should treat China as a military threat and move to contain them wherever possible. No argument from me, but these things were true before coronavirus, and it shouldn't have taken a fake pandemic to make us take action on China.

And more importantly, it's not worth it. Whatever political points we've scored have not been worth the economic cost. And this economic cost includes a large human cost, not just lives lost due to the ruin of the economy itself, but also the vast numbers of people who have lost their livelihoods, their ability to put food on the table for their families, their ability to afford healthcare that they actually DO need, and the overall reduction in their quality of life. Most of you are brushing all that aside as if it were irrelevant, and then you have the temerity to accuse people like me of valuing money over lives.

By going along with this, we're destroying far more lives with this lockdown than we're saving, and for what? We're just prolonging the inevitable, anyway. We can't stay shut down forever, so eventually everyone is going to be exposed anyway. No point destroying the economy at the same time, that only leaves us weaker and less able to fund our healthcare system. The people that are vulnerable to coronavirus are going to get it eventually, so better to just have it run through the population and let herd immunity build up.

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Re: Post Wuhan-Virus(Covid19) World and India

Postby SriKumar » 27 Apr 2020 06:58

^^^THe above post does make for some funny reading....cynical and realistic... :lol: There are some posts (and posters) on some threads that, when I read them, I go ....whaaaaat? I saw not even a hat tip to realism in specific instances. But yes, I have been accused of being cynical in real life, if not here .

Anyway, to the point.... I have no wish to engage in a debate on this other than to say that i disagree with the 'let things roll' approach, it will be problematic, if not cataclysmic for India for reasons: (i) Wuhan's and New York city's statistics bear it out and I pick these examples since the population densities are similar to India for about atleast a third of its population, and (ii) the case of Boris bhai (of United Queendom) , who was touting herd immunity and laid out his Covid policy as such for a good two weeks I think. Then he had a change of mind and went back on it. And in the nick of time too, he was Covided. After he recovered, he made a big speech about how 'people of UK formed a shield around the NHS to protect them', effectively a public endorsement of his change of stance on herd immunity. He saw the light at that point, but even before that when he did away with the herd immunity approach after adopting it for a couple of weeks.

As an aside, I would say New York city also followed the path you suggest, in the initial stages. Initially they did not have a lock-down and tried to do things with minimal disruption to economic activity, check temperatures at airports, the subways were running full but carriages were cleaned every 72 hours, and train stations clearned every night. A few weeks later it went crazy, hospitals were overwhelmed and 700+ were dying everyday for a good week or two. This was 2 weeks after lockdown. I dont think further proof is needed about the need for social distancing than this. (I have no idea how Brazil and Mexico are handling this, both have cities with high population density. If they are taking 'jo hoga, so hoga'/que sera sera approach, I will defnitely follow their adventures more closely, just from purely technical interest).

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Re: Post Wuhan-Virus(Covid19) World and India

Postby vishvak » 27 Apr 2020 10:54

Wonder if any other cause of death has medicines not yet found, hospitals and healthcare workers under risk, multiple organ failure, late detection, spread by air, leaked or transmitted from China because of smashing together 3/4 diseases with airborne spread as show off of newly arrived power, etc.

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Re: Post Wuhan-Virus(Covid19) World and India

Postby Leonard » 27 Apr 2020 11:59

Lockdown vs NO Lock Down Argument ..

Back in 1918 -- SPANISH FLU -- was ALSO a CHINESE FLU ..

Evidence ..
>>
In 1993, Claude Hannoun, the leading expert on the 1918 flu for the Pasteur Institute, asserted the former virus was likely to have come from China. It then mutated in the United States near Boston and from there spread to Brest, France, Europe's battlefields, Europe, and the world with Allied soldiers and sailors as the main disseminators.[30]

In 2014, historian Mark Humphries argued that the mobilization of 96,000 Chinese laborers to work behind the British and French lines might have been the source of the pandemic. Humphries, of the Memorial University of Newfoundland in St. John's, based his conclusions on newly unearthed records. He found archival evidence that a respiratory illness that struck northern China in November 1917 was identified a year later by Chinese health officials as identical to the Spanish flu.[31][32]
<<

This VERY same --> 1918 Chinese Flu -- as per BBC -- Killed 17-18 Million people in India ~ 6 % of Indian Population ..

<<

Now in 1918 -- San Francisco -- DECIDED -- re-open EARLY and results are here ..

Just two months earlier, in September, the first case of the so-called Spanish flu was identified in San Francisco and city health officials sprung into action.

Dr. William C. Hassler, the city’s health officer, ordered the local man who apparently brought the disease to the city after a trip to Chicago into quarantine to stop the disease from finding another human host, according to the center's research of reported accounts.

But it was too late as the virus had already begun to make its way through the city. By mid-October, the cases jumped from 169 to 2,000 in just one week. Later that month, Mayor James Rolph put in place social distancing practices and met with Hassler, other health officials, local business owners as well as officials from the federal government to discuss a plan to close the city.

Some officials demurred at the idea, worried about damage to the city’s economy and the risk of causing public panic. Eventually, on Oct. 18, the city voted to shut down "all places of public amusement.

....

By the end of October, there were 20,000 cases and more than 1,000 deaths. However, as the days went on, the city saw a dip in newly reported cases, which prompted officials to begin to reopen the city and rescind the mask order. By the end of November, officials believed the city had stabilized.

But shortly after the New Year in 1919, the city was hit with 600 new cases in one day, prompting the Board of Supervisors to re-enact the mandatory mask ordinance.
..
Navarro said that many cities often became complacent once they saw a dip in cases, and when a resurgence happens residents often question the public health guidance.

"They were flattening that curve; they just weren't realizing it," Navarro said. "A lot of people thought, ‘Well, what did we go through that for? It did have an impact, they just didn't know it."

...

Back during the Spanish flu, San Fransisco's failure to take swift action and the decision to ease restrictions after only a few weeks had huge ramifications. With 45,000 cases and more than 3,000 deaths, the city was reported to have been one of, if not, the hardest-hit big city.

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/politics-news/san-francisco-had-1918-flu-under-control-then-it-lifted-n1191141

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Re: Post Wuhan-Virus(Covid19) World and India

Postby Mollick.R » 27 Apr 2020 12:16

Y. Kanan wrote:
RamSuresh wrote:Sweeden, Mexico and Brazil have done better than us?

These kind of statements are rock bottom quality for BRF.

Sweden has 400 times the death rate as India, Brazil 30 times and Mexico 15 times.

The news article itself is bad enough. Our masochism on top of that is even more embarrassing.


So what? We're still talking about a relatively small # of deaths. Thousands of Indians die every day! Were you not aware of this? For all your doom and gloom about Sweden, Brazil, Mexico, it's already clear that coronavirus will not become the leading cause of death (or even in the top 10) as a result of the pandemic. Wow such a scary virus; it's not even going to come close to road deaths in any country, especially India! So have some perspective. Use your head! Most of you on BR, normally a pretty cynical and realistic group of people, are behaving like scared children. Our entire country and most of the world is behaving like scared children.



1. @ Y. Kanan saar, Your post about comparing & bringing Sweden's ChinaVirus19 model with India was completely APPLE to PLUTO comparison.

2. The counter argument points by RamSuresh, Deans saar etc are absolutely valid.

3. Your counter counter argument points (highlighted in blue) are just plain Rhetoric and emotional shouting over the top , without any substance (like bringing accidental deaths).

Thanks for the entertainment.
Last edited by Mollick.R on 27 Apr 2020 13:50, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Post Wuhan-Virus(Covid19) World and India

Postby Mollick.R » 27 Apr 2020 12:27

Post-COVID, 75% of 4.5 lakh TCS employees to permanently work from home by '25; from 20%

Not all is negative about the lockdown aimed at curbing the spread of coronavirus, certainly not for India's largest IT service firm Tata Consultancy Services (TCS). The crisis has provided an opportunity to India's largest IT firm to discard its 20-year-old operating model and leapfrog into a new mode of work.

Running up to 2025, TCS will ask a vast majority of 75% of its 4.48 lakh employees globally (including 3.5 lakh in India) to work from home, up from the industry average of 20% today. The new model called 25/25 will require far less office space than occupied today. "We don't believe that we need more than 25% of our workforce at our facilities in order to be 100% productive," says TCS's chief operating officer NG Subramaniam.

The decision came after TCS briskly moved 90% of its 4,48,000 employees post-lockdown to an operating model it calls Secure Borderless Work Spaces (SBWS). In a letter to employees TCS CEO and MD Rajesh Gopinathan wrote SBWS had seen 35,000 meetings, 406000 calls, and 340 lakh messages across TCS on the digital collaboration platform.TCS has invested in creating SBWS over the past few years. "We have come out stronger and our model is more proven than ever before," TCS's CEO and MD Rajesh Gopinathan says.

Subramaniam adds that each employee should spend only 25% of working time in office. This will also imply that of all the team members, only 75% of a project team may be in a single location and the rest will be dispersed across geographies, he says.

But does 55% fewer employees mean 55% less need for office space? .............. The percentage reduction in workforce will not be equally proportionate to the decrease in office space. So, 25% less employees in office may reduce the need for office space by 15%.


https://www.businesstoday.in/current/corporate/post-coronavirus-75-percent-of-3-5-lakh-tcs-employees-permanently-work-from-home-up-from-20-percent/story/401981.html

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Re: Post Wuhan-Virus(Covid19) World and India

Postby Manish_P » 27 Apr 2020 17:43

Mollick.R wrote:
1. @ Y. Kanan saar, Your post about comparing & bringing Sweden's ChinaVirus19 model with India was completely APPLE to PLUTO comparison.
2. The counter argument points by RamSuresh, Deans saar etc are absolutely valid.
3. Your counter counter argument points (highlighted in blue) are just plain Rhetoric and emotional shouting over the top , without any substance (like bringing accidental deaths).
Thanks for the entertainment.


+1 . BTW if Sweden model can be compared to Indian model, then why can't either be compared to New Zealand model

New Zealand has 'won battle' against community transmission of Covid-19

New Zealand’s prime minister, Jacinda Ardern, has said the country has stopped the “widespread, undetected community transmission” of Covid-19, as tough lockdown restrictions are scheduled to ease on Monday night. Ardern said New Zealand had “avoided the worst” in the pandemic, but must continue to fight the virus. “There is no widespread undetected community transmission in New Zealand. We have won that battle. But we must remain vigilant if we are to keep it that way,” she said.

At 11.59pm on Monday, New Zealand will lift its level-4 lockdown which has been in place for more than four weeks. During that time, almost all businesses have been closed, along with schools while the population has been asked to remain in their homes for all but supermarket visits and short walks. Ardern said there was no way of knowing what may have happened without the level-4 lockdown. But she warned that in level-3 there were new risks – namely people coming into more contact with others. Level 3 will see retailers, restaurants and schools allowed to reopen on a smaller scale. Schools will reopen on Wednesday for children up to Year 10 who cannot study from home, or whose parents need to return to work. Ardern said the country would remain at level 3 for two weeks before cabinet decided on whether to move to level 2. “We can only do this if we continue to pull together. If we need to stay at level 3 [for longer] we will.”

Ardern was also optimistic – asked if New Zealand had eliminated Covid-19, she replied “currently”. New Zealand’s transmission rate – the number of people each infected person can pass the virus to – was now under 0.4, compared to the average overseas transmission rate of 2.5.


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Re: Post Wuhan-Virus(Covid19) World and India

Postby nam » 27 Apr 2020 18:57

We get this argument again on death rate not being significant enough and the lockdown is waste of time.

It is NOT about the death rate. It is about how lot of people will die at the same time AND also kill important resources like doctors, nurses & ICU wards.

You can open up the economy, if you are ready to live with NO access to hospitals for the next 6 months. Whose up for it?


In the Chinese virus thead, there is a report on a 36 year old doctor in Mumbai, died because he could find a ICU ward in two hospitals!

Not some poor guy but a Doctor in the richest city in India, at the age of 36 not finding a ICU.

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Re: Post Wuhan-Virus(Covid19) World and India

Postby SRoy » 27 Apr 2020 20:30

I'm already getting anecdotal reports of people untraceable (people picked up and govt. doesn't bother to inform kin where the patient is kept), shoddy quarantine facilities, no doctor attending people, one time meals, govt. doctors refusing to shift patients to private facilities for well off families citing "we don't have that directive".

It is beginning to making sense why people have been escaping these so - called "quarantine facilities".

That said, Modi govt. has lost plot. Allowing opening of shops and then rolling back, divided voices on lock down extension (some states have already decided that they will extend beyond 3rd May), no clarity on allowing offices and establishment to open up (which areas? what per cent-age of staff?). All point to confusion and lack of administrative experience on part of Modi govt.

Media driven cheer leading notwithstanding, common sense tells that the govt. medical personnel, police, municipal staff that used to treat common people like dirt would not have turned angels overnight.

I believe the rising numbers have begun to overwhelm the facilities. This coupled with poor trained sarkari overlords will soon lead to rioting out of desperation.

Small to medium businesses are screwed.

Extension of lock down in small chunks, some decision left of individual state govt. is creating more problems. All I am hearing from lots of people in responsible position (manufacturing, supply chain) that they are not able to plan working arrangements in absence of clear directives.

PS: FWIW, I work in Ahmedabad and took last flight out of there to Kolkata. Our folks, colleagues and old friends are in Hyderabad, Bangalore, Delhi and Mumbai. So, based on daily conversations, I'm getting the above picture.

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Re: Post Wuhan-Virus(Covid19) World and India

Postby Haresh » 27 Apr 2020 21:01

I don't really mind this rag publishing farticles like this.
But why disable comments?
You will notice at the top left hand side there is an icon which shows 17 comments have been made, however they are inaccessible, why, what are they scared of??

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... c-covid-19

Atmavik
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Re: Post Wuhan-Virus(Covid19) World and India

Postby Atmavik » 28 Apr 2020 09:34

the above farticle needs to be read with this one to get the slant.


Are female leaders more successful at managing the coronavirus crisis?


https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/ ... rus-crisis

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Re: Post Wuhan-Virus(Covid19) World and India

Postby Cain Marko » 28 Apr 2020 10:24

Ayyo. This argument about continuing without lockdown because Sweden dunnit thing is the same as economy more important, people always die, more folks die in accidents, flu is just as bad etc etc.

Arrey baba if you guys are so serious about this, go to Sweden.. Please let us dhoti shiver in peace on brf.

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Re: Post Wuhan-Virus(Covid19) World and India

Postby g.sarkar » 28 Apr 2020 10:32

https://en.almo5tsr.com/gulf/china-send ... stigations
China sends a warning to Australia regarding corona investigations
Posted By Ahmed Moawad, 4/27/2020

The Chinese ambassador to Australia warned that demands for an investigation into the outbreak of the Corona virus could lead to Chinese consumers boycotting Australian products or for visits to this country.
This came in an interview made by Ambassador Cheng Jingyi to the Australian newspaper "Financial Review" published Sunday, against the background of Australia joining the United States in calling for a careful investigation in the transformation of the virus from a local epidemic in central China into a global epidemic that has killed more than 200 thousand people, and forced governments Imposing isolation measures that affected billions of people, and hit the global economy.
In a veiled threat, the ambassador warned that pressure to conduct an independent investigation into the origins of the epidemic posed a "danger" and said that "the Chinese people are resentful and disappointed with what Australia is doing now."
"If the mood turns from bad to worse, people will say: We have not gone to a country like this, tourists may change their opinions," he added.
"The decision is up to the people. Ordinary people may say: We did not drink Australian wine and eat Australian beef."
Cheng also threatened the issue of Chinese students going to Australian universities, which is a major source of revenue, and travel restrictions imposed to curb the spread of the epidemic. "The students' families may also think whether the place they found is not friendly, even hostile, and whether it is the best place to send their children to," he said.
.....
Gautam
Is it time to make Mandarin compulsory in Australian kindergartens?

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Re: Post Wuhan-Virus(Covid19) World and India

Postby g.sarkar » 28 Apr 2020 10:53

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... e-changing
The Guardian view on resetting relations with China: times are changing
Editorial Mon 27 Apr 2020.

Coronavirus is prompting countries to rethink relations with Beijing. Are they willing to be honest about their own role?
The pandemic has changed our view of the world not by bringing us radical, unsuspected insights, but by confronting us with uncomfortable truths we avoided before. That Chinese authorities suppressed the extent of the outbreak and punished whistleblowers is appalling but not shocking from the country with the world’s most sophisticated censorship apparatus. That they can be ruthless was equally obvious: in Xinjiang, a million or more Uighurs have been herded into detention camps, with little international protest. The difference is that this time the repercussions have been felt outside its borders.
It has accelerated the clear shift towards a more hostile view of China across the political spectrum, albeit fuelled in the US by outright hawks in the Trump administration. Hopes that China might one day pursue political reform have been erased by its increasing repression at home and hardball tactics abroad. Countries worldwide have been taking heed. The UK had already moved away from the “golden relationship” that David Cameron and George Osborne pursued with apparent indifference to the cost. Now senior Conservatives want a fundamental reset, while UK spy agencies are, more cautiously, calling for a reassessment.
Dominic Raab, the foreign secretary, warned this month that after coronavirus there can be no return to “business as usual” with China. The outbreak has shown how serious and widespread the ramifications of suppressing information can be. On the economic front, the scramble to obtain personal protective equipment has underlined the recklessness of a dependence on any one country for manufacturing.
Beijing’s successful attempts to change the narrative, to dilute domestic anger, have caused fury. Diplomats and state media have touted conspiracies suggesting that the US could be responsible for the virus. US intelligence agencies and an EU report say Chinese operatives spread disinformation about Covid-19 on social media (Beijing denies it). State media’s highlighting of imported cases (almost all of which have been Chinese nationals returning home) have fuelled xenophobia: Africans in Guangzhou have been targeted for tests, harassed, barred from shops and restaurants, and even evicted.
.....
Gautam

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Re: Post Wuhan-Virus(Covid19) World and India

Postby uddu » 28 Apr 2020 11:32

Would request that none of these Western and Anti-India news articles are provided links in here. The same news you could find in Wion. Could replace the same with Wion. One more thing that need to go is the Google search results for India always coming with Anti-India channels and articles..Everytime. Many of the reason for Indians reading propaganda filth about themselves is Google search.

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Re: Post Wuhan-Virus(Covid19) World and India

Postby Karan M » 28 Apr 2020 11:46

You can believe whatever it is that you wish. Please don't spread FUD on BR, especially the parts in bold. Thanks.

As regards your other claims, the GOI has clarified in multiple circulars on who is allowed to open up, who is not, percentage of staff allowed, expectations and have also given the states leeway to finetune further.

If anything their administration has done exceptionally well given the scale of the effort. Yes, there are outliers but that is true in all states wherein the state Govt for whatever reason has either been badly run or not been able to implement the directives well.

SRoy wrote:I'm already getting anecdotal reports of people untraceable (people picked up and govt. doesn't bother to inform kin where the patient is kept), shoddy quarantine facilities, no doctor attending people, one time meals, govt. doctors refusing to shift patients to private facilities for well off families citing "we don't have that directive".

It is beginning to making sense why people have been escaping these so - called "quarantine facilities".

That said, Modi govt. has lost plot. Allowing opening of shops and then rolling back, divided voices on lock down extension (some states have already decided that they will extend beyond 3rd May), no clarity on allowing offices and establishment to open up (which areas? what per cent-age of staff?). All point to confusion and lack of administrative experience on part of Modi govt.

Media driven cheer leading notwithstanding, common sense tells that the govt. medical personnel, police, municipal staff that used to treat common people like dirt would not have turned angels overnight.

I believe the rising numbers have begun to overwhelm the facilities. This coupled with poor trained sarkari overlords will soon lead to rioting out of desperation.

Small to medium businesses are screwed.

Extension of lock down in small chunks, some decision left of individual state govt. is creating more problems. All I am hearing from lots of people in responsible position (manufacturing, supply chain) that they are not able to plan working arrangements in absence of clear directives.

PS: FWIW, I work in Ahmedabad and took last flight out of there to Kolkata. Our folks, colleagues and old friends are in Hyderabad, Bangalore, Delhi and Mumbai. So, based on daily conversations, I'm getting the above picture.

Manish_P
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Re: Post Wuhan-Virus(Covid19) World and India

Postby Manish_P » 28 Apr 2020 12:26

^ IMO that entire quoted post can be compressed into 3 words - 'Mudi shud rejine'

Adrija
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Re: Post Wuhan-Virus(Covid19) World and India

Postby Adrija » 28 Apr 2020 12:42

Wow... I don't count myself as a blind fan but we should be thanking all our gods and ancestors that we have a responsive and effective government right now, otherwise we would have literally seen dead bodies piling up on our streets........and people still criticize....

Ah well, life....strange indeed are the ways of this world...

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Re: Post Wuhan-Virus(Covid19) World and India

Postby yensoy » 28 Apr 2020 13:29

Regarding policies that get announced, rolled back or not clarified... this is an ailment from before that Chinesevirus can't magically cure. Poor drafting language, poor enumeration of rules, poor coverage of scenarios, poor communication of rules and intent to various regional, local and departmental administrators is deeply entrenched in the Indian bureaucracy - however with the lockdown in place, there is even lesser room to negotiate, no"intermediaries "who can swing things, more fear by bureaucrats of being found in violation that the rules are being enforced even more stringently than they would have. Case in point - the pathetic refusal to deboard the mortal remains of 3 UAE based Indians at Delhi airport.

On the other hand, full credit to GoI for being "agile" in every sense of the word. They did want to open non-essential deliveries through eCommerce, but the local traders threw a fit so they had to go back on that. Information sharing in terms of patients and procedures has been rather good. Some state governments are doing even better - and hope they are rewarded by an early relaxation of lockdown.

This is unprecedented, so there are a lot of cracks for people to fall through. For instance the poor Mumbai doctor who was given the run around despite having clear symptoms - only Covid hospitals can accept symptomatic patients; a few days ago a young mother in Hyd was also not admitted to any common hospital and the Covid centers refused her due to lack of symptoms - she died soon afterwards. So hope and pray that GoI and state governments keep adjusting policies to take care of these eventualities, and all of us stay away from the "bleeding edge".

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Re: Post Wuhan-Virus(Covid19) World and India

Postby SRoy » 28 Apr 2020 14:22

Manish_P wrote:^ IMO that entire quoted post can be compressed into 3 words - 'Mudi shud rejine'


I am in BRF much longer than you and old timers know each others political leanings.

So, keep your pidgin Mallu speak to yourself please.

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Re: Post Wuhan-Virus(Covid19) World and India

Postby SRoy » 28 Apr 2020 14:28

Karan M wrote:You can believe whatever it is that you wish. Please don't spread FUD on BR, especially the parts in bold. Thanks.

As regards your other claims, the GOI has clarified in multiple circulars on who is allowed to open up, who is not, percentage of staff allowed, expectations and have also given the states leeway to finetune further.

If anything their administration has done exceptionally well given the scale of the effort. Yes, there are outliers but that is true in all states wherein the state Govt for whatever reason has either been badly run or not been able to implement the directives well.

SRoy wrote:I'm already getting anecdotal reports of people untraceable (people picked up and govt. doesn't bother to inform kin where the patient is kept), shoddy quarantine facilities, no doctor attending people, one time meals, govt. doctors refusing to shift patients to private facilities for well off families citing "we don't have that directive".

It is beginning to making sense why people have been escaping these so - called "quarantine facilities".

That said, Modi govt. has lost plot. Allowing opening of shops and then rolling back, divided voices on lock down extension (some states have already decided that they will extend beyond 3rd May), no clarity on allowing offices and establishment to open up (which areas? what per cent-age of staff?). All point to confusion and lack of administrative experience on part of Modi govt.

Media driven cheer leading notwithstanding, common sense tells that the govt. medical personnel, police, municipal staff that used to treat common people like dirt would not have turned angels overnight.

I believe the rising numbers have begun to overwhelm the facilities. This coupled with poor trained sarkari overlords will soon lead to rioting out of desperation.

Small to medium businesses are screwed.

Extension of lock down in small chunks, some decision left of individual state govt. is creating more problems. All I am hearing from lots of people in responsible position (manufacturing, supply chain) that they are not able to plan working arrangements in absence of clear directives.

PS: FWIW, I work in Ahmedabad and took last flight out of there to Kolkata. Our folks, colleagues and old friends are in Hyderabad, Bangalore, Delhi and Mumbai. So, based on daily conversations, I'm getting the above picture.


Okay, I will go by your assertion.
I have bolded portions of your text.
I work in Ahmedabad. Among BJP's best governed states? Ahmedabad's numbers speak for themselves.

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Re: Post Wuhan-Virus(Covid19) World and India

Postby SRoy » 28 Apr 2020 14:33

yensoy wrote:Regarding policies that get announced, rolled back or not clarified... this is an ailment from before that Chinesevirus can't magically cure. Poor drafting language, poor enumeration of rules, poor coverage of scenarios, poor communication of rules and intent to various regional, local and departmental administrators is deeply entrenched in the Indian bureaucracy - however with the lockdown in place, there is even lesser room to negotiate, no"intermediaries "who can swing things, more fear by bureaucrats of being found in violation that the rules are being enforced even more stringently than they would have. Case in point - the pathetic refusal to deboard the mortal remains of 3 UAE based Indians at Delhi airport.


Fair observation.

Therefore, I don't see the reason for other posters to be defensive about this.
Bureaucracy is a problem and we are working around it.

My "whine", if there is, that Modi govt. had enough time to tame this bureaucracy.

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Re: Post Wuhan-Virus(Covid19) World and India

Postby Karan M » 28 Apr 2020 15:04

SRoy wrote:
Karan M wrote:You can believe whatever it is that you wish. Please don't spread FUD on BR, especially the parts in bold. Thanks.

As regards your other claims, the GOI has clarified in multiple circulars on who is allowed to open up, who is not, percentage of staff allowed, expectations and have also given the states leeway to finetune further.

If anything their administration has done exceptionally well given the scale of the effort. Yes, there are outliers but that is true in all states wherein the state Govt for whatever reason has either been badly run or not been able to implement the directives well.



Okay, I will go by your assertion.
I have bolded portions of your text.
I work in Ahmedabad. Among BJP's best governed states? Ahmedabad's numbers speak for themselves.


Ahmedabad's numbers and those of multiple cities all have specific reasons, specific clusters. Without going into details, generic statements have no merit. This applies to both BJP and non-BJP ruled states. Every state has unique challenges, and administration which has not been uniformly consistent. The overall trend and direction matters and so does the efforts of the Center in managing all that they have done so far, being decisive wherever possible.

This is from 24th April 2020, itself.
https://invest-india-revamp-static-file ... IUTUES.pdf

Look here for an understanding of the scale of the Governance effort both central and state. Or you could check pib.nic.in
https://www.investindia.gov.in/govermen ... l%20Scheme
https://pib.gov.in/indexd.aspx

The overall numbers for India speak for themselves and the scale of the lockdown, achieved at short notice with remedial fixes being rolled out almost daily for issues which will invariably occur, also do. Countries a fraction of the size of India have not been able to achieve anything similar.

Yes some states have been worse than the others, but without specific data, it is impossible to draw inferences and nor should we. Administrators have to deal with both logistical issues on an hitherto unbelievable level, but also the misbehavior and non-compliance of significant sections of the population, which has to be addressed without violence given the amount of hostile-actor focus on India, and the desire of many foreign establishments that India fail at containment, and also be attacked in foreign capitals.

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Re: Post Wuhan-Virus(Covid19) World and India

Postby Karan M » 28 Apr 2020 15:10

SRoy wrote:
yensoy wrote:Regarding policies that get announced, rolled back or not clarified... this is an ailment from before that Chinesevirus can't magically cure. Poor drafting language, poor enumeration of rules, poor coverage of scenarios, poor communication of rules and intent to various regional, local and departmental administrators is deeply entrenched in the Indian bureaucracy - however with the lockdown in place, there is even lesser room to negotiate, no"intermediaries "who can swing things, more fear by bureaucrats of being found in violation that the rules are being enforced even more stringently than they would have. Case in point - the pathetic refusal to deboard the mortal remains of 3 UAE based Indians at Delhi airport.


Fair observation.

Therefore, I don't see the reason for other posters to be defensive about this.
Bureaucracy is a problem and we are working around it.

My "whine", if there is, that Modi govt. had enough time to tame this bureaucracy.


Again - you seem to be caught up in extending a bias/perception regarding the bureaucracy to the Govt as a general principle, which is actually making it perform. The same "bureaucracy which is a problem" is currently running the world's largest lockdown without a fraction of the ham-handed brutality shown by the chinese, or the mass incompetence shown by western countries which are literally in a war in their key cities, while their politicians ham it up on TV. As we both agree, the bureaucracy is not magically going to change within even a decade, the credit for that should at least partly go the current GOI.

India hasn't seen a fraction of the chaos seen elsewhere, despite the massive misbehavior shown by many of its citizens due to general disobedience or self-interest, or ill-education/being under-informed. There is a massive attempt underway to downplay the scale of the Indian effort and pretend it's all luck. This forum is not the place for that, not right now especially. Lets not play into the above folks hands.

Nor is it the time to engage in speculation about numbers overwhelming the facilities etc when such is not the case on a general basis country-wide. In some states, in some clusters, yes - possible. Country-wide, no. And that was the entire point of a lockdown, to restrict the spread, as far as possible to hotspots which can be fenced off, contained.

This is no different than a war, right now. And as during wartime, we expect senior members to do their part and show greater restraint with a laser like focus on data vs cribbing. The time for lessons learnt will be there, but these are extra-ordinary times and its all hands on deck.

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Re: Post Wuhan-Virus(Covid19) World and India

Postby chola » 28 Apr 2020 15:14

Yes we must keep the Chinese virus in check but India has better get its economy back track soon or this post-Wuhan world would look much like the pre-Wuhan world except the MNCs will begin spinning off subunits to keep access to the chini market.

And make no mistake, it is the one dominant market left in this world right now which gives them immense leverage over the world's companies.

https://www.reuters.com/article/brief-adidas-expects-china-sales-to-reco/brief-adidas-expects-china-sales-to-recover-by-end-of-q2-idUSL5N2CF22G

https://www.forbes.com/sites/peterlyon/2020/04/23/in-shadow-of-pandemic-tesla-posts-record-sales-in-china-as-global-car-sales-plummet/#4d15c3f25dff

https://www.ft.com/content/8bf6db54-32c8-47db-b3d8-84aa3885cb31
China construction resumes in sign of economic reopening
Equipment makers raise prices as infrastructure building shows signs of a rebound


https://www.nytimes.com/reuters/2020/04/24/business/24reuters-swatch-ceo.html

Swatch CEO Says China Sales Rise but Global Situation Still Grim

By Reuters
April 24, 2020

ZURICH — Swatch Group's sales at its own stores in China are up by almost a quarter during April, the watchmaker's Chief Executive Nick Hayek told Blick newspaper, but the global situation following the coronavirus outbreak remains tough.

"You will hardly believe it, but in our own shops in China where the crisis seems to be over, sales are 24% higher than they were in April 2019," Hayek said in an interview published on Friday.


All this talk about winning companies away from Cheen due to hatred of the Wuhan virus is naught unless the economy gets up and running again.

Cheen is powering through despite signs of a second wave. We need to live with the virus even with a vaccine. A common flu vaccine is only 33 to 40% effective in most seasons and we've learnt to live with it. We have to live the same way with this thing too.

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Re: Post Wuhan-Virus(Covid19) World and India

Postby Karan M » 28 Apr 2020 15:34

I hope you are aware that India has already been granting clearance for most firms to open up with limited staff and social distancing/safety measures included, and has also resumed construction work on roads etc in non Covid hotspots.

https://www.investindia.gov.in/bip?utm_source=popup
http://dcmsme.gov.in/Compendium-MSME.pdf
http://dcmsme.gov.in/Awareness_corona.htm

All this should be spread by the Indian media. But most are such shameless !@#s that even now they are either engaging in TRP boosting exercises or trying to sabotage the Govts efforts by spreading FUD.

May 2nd, will have the detailed list of industries and other steps released by the Govt. Lets stop trying to assume these guys are not worried about the economy. It is they who are paying out the bill, they know exactly what is at stake.

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Re: Post Wuhan-Virus(Covid19) World and India

Postby chola » 28 Apr 2020 15:39

Thanks, Karan ji!!! I feel better.

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Re: Post Wuhan-Virus(Covid19) World and India

Postby RamSuresh » 28 Apr 2020 19:17

Mr Kannan

Please read this link.
https://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/mumbai-36-year-old-doctor-dies-of-multiple-organ-failure-samples-test-positive-for-covid-19-1670764-2020-04-24

A 36 year old doctor died. He worked in a high corona incidence area. When his condition deteriorated, he could not be admitted in the hub hospital in Mumbai. Guess why, there were no beds. He died.

People like him will die by your calculation. Unable to find healthcare. You find it ok, then you should have said so clearly in the first post. Instead you pretended that Sweden has a better solution. It doesn't.

Then you shift the goalpost bring in china bashing. That is not relevant. China bashing is a different and new goal post compared to lockdown economics.

We may be right or wrong, it will all be known only post facto. To believe a particular approach is better, you need to present better data.

Bye

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Re: Post Wuhan-Virus(Covid19) World and India

Postby darshan » 28 Apr 2020 19:22

Many that shouldn't have died but did due to tablighi.


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