2021 Strategic and Political Analysis-1

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sudarshan
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Re: 2021 Strategic and Political Analysis-1

Post by sudarshan »

Yes I got it. Could you edit out your posts above?
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Re: 2021 Strategic and Political Analysis-1

Post by Lohit »

chetak wrote: My mind is pretty much made up about the farm laws.
Chetak ji, thankyou for sharing your thoughts on this, I have avidly read your posts over several years as a long time lurker, thanks.
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Re: 2021 Strategic and Political Analysis-1

Post by Lohit »

ManSingh wrote:
Also you over simplify when you say current agitation will lead to an insurgency in Punjab.
ManSingh ji, I believe that there have been blasts recently and arrests of armed Khalistanis. I am unsure whether I am dhoti-shivering or seeing the re-surfacing of this menace that is not being taken with the seriousness that it should. Obviously I hope your view ultimately holds true.

However in my view we should leave nothing to chance and hence I am hoping the large mass of the "genuine" protestors who are 99.99% in my view are engaged and disbanded while the 0.01% get a Safoora Zargar++ treatment.

Added:
Again would I try to contain a potentially catastrophic insurgency to resurface - we know there are dozens of global and local actors ranging from Vatican, Soros, Amreekis, Khangress, Commies and so on who would love to fan flames. Or we try and contain this as we have done in the past through dialogue when the counter-party was dharmic, as Sikhs are (whether they see that or not).
Last edited by Lohit on 11 Oct 2021 14:06, edited 1 time in total.
Lohit
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Re: 2021 Strategic and Political Analysis-1

Post by Lohit »

venkat_kv wrote:
what exactly are farm leader doing to meet the govt halfway after this? they are stuck to their demand that three farm laws should be repelled. What more do you propose the govt should do to win these "non-farming farmer protestors" back? The threat of militancy is a poor excuse, that will be used for every demand from now on as was the case previously as well when it came to the minority demands. " give us what we want or there will be riots".
Venkat ji, I think the quote above is the pithy of your argument where you say namely,

1. Intent of protestors are insitu malafide
2. This will be taken as a precedent for future
3. Amrinder is unreliable and unpatriotic

I agree with the first view but disagree with the last two.

On the first, if I speak plainly, I agree that the protestors, more than anything, imho, are inflamed by anti-hindu sentiments. This is the key since the protestors are reluctant to bow down to "baniya" Namo. Which is why I think the very same quid-pro-quos can perhaps be made to fly if they are tabled by the sardar Amrinder Singh. Moreover, I still do not understand on why individual states shouldn't have the freedom to opt in/out of the laws. Ideally free-market dynamics should demonstrate why states should adopt it. For instance, states that cracked down hard on naxalism such as AP demonstrated why this was the right approach and other states followed suit.

The second, imvho, is a strawman. When there were no "mass" protests of this kind for Ayodhya, CAA (except in Delhi, hosted by Kejru) or demonitization - I don't see how this becomes a precedent. We made peace with insurgents in Assam, but it did not mean it emboldened those in other states or made any change in our approach to say in Kashmir.

Thirdly, its very difficult to "decide" on Amrinder's patriotism. However I would say that there are many objectively demonstrations,

1. Clearly called out that Pakistan is pushing narco-terrorism (which noone else in Khangress has done) and called for inter-state joint border patrols
2. Supported Namo against party line on a range of issues such as CDS appointment, opposing dialogue with NaPak, ban on Sikhs for Justice (involved in Rahul's toolkit-gate) - infact he has been very well aligned, maybe even more than Akalis with Namo on everything except farm laws
3. Zero pandering of Khalistanis - a rarity in Punjab

Again, its very difficult to give a politician a good or bad certificate. I ask you, can you ever forgive Namo for his inaction on post-poll WB violence? But sometimes we have to make do with what we have, in this case Badal ji or Captain - bottom of the barrel but that's all BJP has in Punjab, a historically tricky state.
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Re: 2021 Strategic and Political Analysis-1

Post by Cyrano »

The farm law protestors who are holding the govt to ransom are in now way representative of farmers pan India. Their calls for Bharat bands evoked scant response across India, even in non-BJP states. Theres a lot more that demonstrates their dubious, illegitimate and patents malafide nature, but at this point all that is irrelevant.

Based on this one point - non-representativity - alone, its high high time the govt and courts move to take the long rope these "protesters" have been given and put it to better use.
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Re: 2021 Strategic and Political Analysis-1

Post by triank »

vimal wrote:For those who can understand Hindi please see this video to understand the Islamic racism in Indian subcontinent.
People who are from Turkic, Arabic and Iranian origins have an exclusive right over Islamic system and consider themselves superior to the Indian converts from lower castes. Lower caste Muslims called Pasmanda are treated with utter disdain and immediately threatened with fatwa and pushed out as Kafirs.

Pasmanda Muslims Support Uniform Civil Code | Faiyaz Ahmad Faizi | JD Moments
did you watch faiyyaz ji's encounter of ashraafiya arfa *khanum*? the fox couldn't stand the counter-assault & went poof! (and she had begun by swiping victimhood mastercard of how she daily receives "d3@th & r@p3 threats" in this country...faiyyaz emptied her account in one shot!)
chanakyaa wrote:
venkat_kv wrote:...
All in all i am maybe seeing the realization that this govt is here to stay, so they seem to be looking for reconcilations (which stage of grief is it btw). So most of the arguments are turned to "you must try to look/move forward" and "not dwell on the past". if the show was on the other foot these very people would be drunken with power persecuting everyone not kowtowing their line.
People like J Sai Deepak, Vikram Sampat, and many others are the worst nightmare of Kangi/Left ecosystem. Especially youngsters like these two gentleman who are not only good at what they do (in terms of well researched books), but savvy enough to counter with a facts/data when presented with political arguments. Shishi Tharki-roor appears to be their only weapon with Kangi/Left ecosystem to attack such authors. There is a similar video of Tharoor with J Sai Deepak, on his book "India That is Bharat", in which J Sai demolished fake-roor. More than reconciliation, their effort is to stop or slow down, with relentless effort, by maintaining blinkered view of indian history that they were so successful in building.
following from that moment in the above-mentioned video where sai deepak apologizes for not considering gandhi a 'mahatma':



also, dr. sudhanshu trivedi schooling khangoon *professor* gaurav vallabh on a news24 debate 'moderated' by manak gupta (who just infact intently listened to sudhanshu ji, spellbound in rapt attention & admitted his 'delight' in doing so) is well worth multiple-watch!
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Re: 2021 Strategic and Political Analysis-1

Post by uddu »


AshishA
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Re: 2021 Strategic and Political Analysis-1

Post by AshishA »

sudarshan wrote:Yes I got it. Could you edit out your posts above?
I have done it.
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Re: 2021 Strategic and Political Analysis-1

Post by vijayk »

uddu wrote:
Shouldn't there be a fund to help these people with their security, community interactions, socio/cultural assimilation/support system?

Who should take the lead? VHP/Arya samaj kind of org or Govt/NGOs?
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Re: 2021 Strategic and Political Analysis-1

Post by Cyrano »

Jagan govt in AP is now distributing "oxford compact english-english-telugu dictionary" with Jagan's name on it, with missionary definitions for common words.

sanjaykumar
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Re: 2021 Strategic and Political Analysis-1

Post by sanjaykumar »

Shouldn't there be a fund to help these people with their security, community interactions, socio/cultural assimilation/support system?

Who should take the lead? VHP/Arya samaj kind of org or Govt/NGOs?



There is a fund: Hindu donations to Hindu temples. Currently controlled by secular governments. Aforementioned secular governments do not control endowments of other religious organisations.

Many of India's crises are self-inflicted. It is difficult to have much sympathy.
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Re: 2021 Strategic and Political Analysis-1

Post by venkat_kv »

Lohit wrote:
venkat_kv wrote:
what exactly are farm leader doing to meet the govt halfway after this? they are stuck to their demand that three farm laws should be repelled. What more do you propose the govt should do to win these "non-farming farmer protestors" back? The threat of militancy is a poor excuse, that will be used for every demand from now on as was the case previously as well when it came to the minority demands. " give us what we want or there will be riots".
Venkat ji, I think the quote above is the pithy of your argument where you say namely,

1. Intent of protestors are insitu malafide
2. This will be taken as a precedent for future
3. Amrinder is unreliable and unpatriotic

I agree with the first view but disagree with the last two.

On the first, if I speak plainly, I agree that the protestors, more than anything, imho, are inflamed by anti-hindu sentiments. This is the key since the protestors are reluctant to bow down to "baniya" Namo. Which is why I think the very same quid-pro-quos can perhaps be made to fly if they are tabled by the sardar Amrinder Singh. Moreover, I still do not understand on why individual states shouldn't have the freedom to opt in/out of the laws. Ideally free-market dynamics should demonstrate why states should adopt it. For instance, states that cracked down hard on naxalism such as AP demonstrated why this was the right approach and other states followed suit.

The second, imvho, is a strawman. When there were no "mass" protests of this kind for Ayodhya, CAA (except in Delhi, hosted by Kejru) or demonitization - I don't see how this becomes a precedent. We made peace with insurgents in Assam, but it did not mean it emboldened those in other states or made any change in our approach to say in Kashmir.

Thirdly, its very difficult to "decide" on Amrinder's patriotism. However I would say that there are many objectively demonstrations,

1. Clearly called out that Pakistan is pushing narco-terrorism (which noone else in Khangress has done) and called for inter-state joint border patrols
2. Supported Namo against party line on a range of issues such as CDS appointment, opposing dialogue with NaPak, ban on Sikhs for Justice (involved in Rahul's toolkit-gate) - infact he has been very well aligned, maybe even more than Akalis with Namo on everything except farm laws
3. Zero pandering of Khalistanis - a rarity in Punjab

Again, its very difficult to give a politician a good or bad certificate. I ask you, can you ever forgive Namo for his inaction on post-poll WB violence? But sometimes we have to make do with what we have, in this case Badal ji or Captain - bottom of the barrel but that's all BJP has in Punjab, a historically tricky state.
Lohit Saar,
let me clarify on the underlined parts of your post and before that I will restate/clarify. I don't think Amrinder is unpatriotic, bit I definitely think he is unreliable. The reason for this is that he was actively fanning the flames of the farmer agitation some 3-6 months ago, participating in giving speeches and letting the arthiyas led protests run as is without trying to talk to the farmers and allay their fears.The state govt of Punjab could have conducted sessions/talks with farmer groups. If the Captain was not unceremoniously removed from the CMship he would have still been supporting the farmer protests.

He is not a young 30's something leader. He has seen the insurgency in Punjab firsthand and also he should have known about the treatment of sikhs in the hand of peacefuls during partition (i am not going back to the mughal times as that will be even more messy). Yet, he has resolutely opposed CAA and then turned around at the first sign of sikh refugees from Pakistan and Afghanistan to demand citizenship for them. All this points to a shameless pandering to local interests and not trying to put in a policy. He will keep demanding citizenship for his voter base and perpetuate the mai-baap culture as the benfactor who has given citizenship or helping hand (well he is a politician and even this is a little acceptable), but all of these things make him unreliable.

Regarding the first underlined part -isn't this being used as a reason by all the local parties or various arms of BIF depending on situation. Namo is a Gujrati what does he know about our state/culture/region/language ... etc etc to further any kind of protests. An are we going to justify protests by region wise agitations run by local parties over reforms that are going to benefit the country.

Have debate by all means and ask how a particular law and reform helps or even harms the local populace and make adjustments for the same. And my point still stands, you don't need any opt in or opt out for the farm laws as it allows a farmer on an individual basis to sell in a mandi or to a private business if he get a good price. After all it has to benefit that farmers and common people first not the govt, or arthiyas/middle men. Otherwise we will in the future be in held hostage to farm loan waivers that will start running into lakhs of crores. (you can setup food processing centers for a fraction of that price).

The idea that in the future the mandis will/might go extinct and maybe MSP also, so i will protest right away for them (even when the laws make a provision that you cannot sell below MSP) is a lot like a question during my engineering days ragging of "what will do if you woke up tomorrow and find yourself as an opposite gender" does it mean I should not sleep and ask everyone around me also to not sleep citing the same as a solution?
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Re: 2021 Strategic and Political Analysis-1

Post by venkat_kv »

chanakyaa wrote:
venkat_kv wrote:...
All in all i am maybe seeing the realization that this govt is here to stay, so they seem to be looking for reconcilations (which stage of grief is it btw). So most of the arguments are turned to "you must try to look/move forward" and "not dwell on the past". if the show was on the other foot these very people would be drunken with power persecuting everyone not kowtowing their line.
People like J Sai Deepak, Vikram Sampat, and many others are the worst nightmare of Kangi/Left ecosystem. Especially youngsters like these two gentleman who are not only good at what they do (in terms of well researched books), but savvy enough to counter with a facts/data when presented with political arguments. Shishi Tharki-roor appears to be their only weapon with Kangi/Left ecosystem to attack such authors. There is a similar video of Tharoor with J Sai Deepak, on his book "India That is Bharat", in which J Sai demolished fake-roor. More than reconciliation, their effort is to stop or slow down, with relentless effort, by maintaining blinkered view of indian history that they were so successful in building.
I did see the exchange between Shashi Tharoor and J Sai Deepak. he brought out very good issues/points. we need more exposure for people like him and Vikram Sampat and more like them in regional languages. It also helps in some cases that these guys don't identify with BJP and come speak for Indic/Indian causes. This also gives them a veil of neutrality. Sometimes people tune off once somebody comes as BJP spokesperson. this helps to target that crowd that see itself as secular ignoring the issues that are around.

I do like Bhau, who also explains things with humor and stories/anecdotes. But he has been branded as BJP agent by the blind seculars.
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Re: 2021 Strategic and Political Analysis-1

Post by Cyrano »

Why such a long discussion on Amerinder ? Most Indian politicians will sell their mother & motherland for temporary gains. Barring rare exceptions, the only politicians who put country first to some extent come from Sanghi background. The rest see each day they arent in power is a missed opportunity to loot. They will lie, cheat, mob, kill, even become traitors to just get back into the loot game. Amerinder is no different. Many such looters have come and gone. No need to put him on a pedestal, pacify him thinking he is the only door for some regional or national good.

I'm thinking we should shift the capital from Delhi to some place central/southernly. This proximity to hostile borders is sometimes an additional headache. But that cant happen in my lifetime given central vista and all.
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Re: 2021 Strategic and Political Analysis-1

Post by Cyrano »

Sai Deepak exposed Tharoor for what he is: a sententious prattler passing overwrought magniloquent prose for intellectuality and oxbridge tainted glib pontification for incisive argument, and delivered a dyspneic, antwacky Tharoor his comeuppance.

There it is, I have Tharoorised my fellow BRFites ;-)
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Re: 2021 Strategic and Political Analysis-1

Post by Tanaji »

Chetakji’s “Shampoo boy” epithet for Tharoor is just as apt :(( :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
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Re: 2021 Strategic and Political Analysis-1

Post by SriKumar »

Cyrano wrote:Sai Deepak exposed Tharoor for what he is: a sententious prattler passing overwrought magniloquent prose for intellectuality and oxbridge tainted glib pontification for incisive argument, and delivered a dyspneic, antwacky Tharoor his comeuppance.

There it is, I have Tharoorised my fellow BRFites ;-)
good pun. Tharoorized sounds like terrorized.
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Re: 2021 Strategic and Political Analysis-1

Post by sudarshan »

Cyrano wrote:Sai Deepak exposed Tharoor for what he is: a sententious prattler passing overwrought magniloquent prose for intellectuality and oxbridge tainted glib pontification for incisive argument, and delivered a dyspneic, antwacky Tharoor his comeuppance.
I pride myself on my own glib pontification (though not oxbridge tainted), but I had to reach for the dictionary for a couple of those words (dyspneic, antwacky). Well done, you have mastered the art of intellectual argument!
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Re: 2021 Strategic and Political Analysis-1

Post by rsingh »

Cyrano wrote:Sai Deepak exposed Tharoor for what he is: a sententious prattler passing overwrought magniloquent prose for intellectuality and oxbridge tainted glib pontification for incisive argument, and delivered a dyspneic, antwacky Tharoor his comeuppance.

There it is, I have Tharoorised my fellow BRFites ;-)
:(( One Ton dictionaries upon you. For the first time I can't understand a single word in a sentence and feel better about it.
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Re: 2021 Strategic and Political Analysis-1

Post by nandakumar »

rsingh wrote:
Cyrano wrote:Sai Deepak exposed Tharoor for what he is: a sententious prattler passing overwrought magniloquent prose for intellectuality and oxbridge tainted glib pontification for incisive argument, and delivered a dyspneic, antwacky Tharoor his comeuppance.

There it is, I have Tharoorised my fellow BRFites ;-)
:(( One Ton dictionaries upon you. For the first time I can't understand a single word in a sentence and feel better about it.
You are being too harsh on Cyrano. "Sai Deepak exposed Tharoor for what he is." is aam abdul English. "Sentencious prattler, passing over wrought magniloquent prose intellectuality", or "oxbridge tainted glib notification for incisive argument", " delivered a dyspneic (is there such a word?) are phrases that even Tharoor would be proud of!
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Re: 2021 Strategic and Political Analysis-1

Post by Cyrano »

just for fun onlee guys... :)
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Re: 2021 Strategic and Political Analysis-1

Post by rsingh »

Cyrano wrote:just for fun onlee guys... :)
Saar ji wish you could wright an open letter to Throor ji and put ball in his court. :rotfl:
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Re: 2021 Strategic and Political Analysis-1

Post by Cyrano »

In that case I would change the game and say "adh jal gagri chalakat jaay" and leave him to flummox on it ;)
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Re: 2021 Strategic and Political Analysis-1

Post by disha »

Cyrano wrote:Sai Deepak exposed Tharoor for what he is: a sententious prattler passing overwrought magniloquent prose for intellectuality and oxbridge tainted glib pontification for incisive argument, and delivered a dyspneic, antwacky Tharoor his comeuppance.

There it is, I have Tharoorised my fellow BRFites ;-)
Excellent. May you have 72 shampoos for your Birthday.
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Re: 2021 Strategic and Political Analysis-1

Post by Prem Kumar »

Meanwhile the BJP disease of sucking-up to those who hate them, continues unabated!

https://www.opindia.com/2021/10/netizen ... -of-india/
Eternal vigilance is the price of voting for BJP
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Re: 2021 Strategic and Political Analysis-1

Post by vijayk »

Prem Kumar wrote:Meanwhile the BJP disease of sucking-up to those who hate them, continues unabated!

https://www.opindia.com/2021/10/netizen ... -of-india/
Eternal vigilance is the price of voting for BJP
Unbelievable moronic attitude has no end in sight
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Re: 2021 Strategic and Political Analysis-1

Post by Ambar »

There are thousands of such appointments everyday and it is not an important enough appointment that the cabinet minister for I&B would review and approve. Remember, the bureaucrats at every level of the government are still a part of the old ecosystem, so they will appoint there own.
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Re: 2021 Strategic and Political Analysis-1

Post by Vayutuvan »

sudarshan wrote: I pride myself on my own glib pontification (though not oxbridge tainted), but I had to reach for the dictionary for a couple of those words (dyspneic, antwacky). Well done, you have mastered the art of intellectual argument!
At least words can be looked up. What would you be able to do with the pronunciation? MP Tharoor, in that video with Vikram Sampath and Sardesai, pronounces "Andamaan" in a very strange clipped half-Brit, half-American accent. Wierd. He is a caricature and is being hailed as the saviour of INC. Hmm.
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Re: 2021 Strategic and Political Analysis-1

Post by Vayutuvan »

By the way, I am still mystified as to what was MP Tharoor's achievements when he was the MoS during the Dr. MMS govt.? If somebody can give me a pointer or where to look, I would appreciate it very much. If not, I myself will dig into it. At this point, it looks like to me that MP Tharoor can talk a good game but had he won any? Did his team win any? I haven't come across any of his achievements other than the UN job where he was serving at the pleasure of the US. It is very well known (and widely reported at that time) that he did not get elected to the top post at the UN because the US had reservations.

By the way, Cyrano ji, since you are a powerful enough individual to be invited to a dinner where MP Tharoor was present, is it possible that you can give all of us an insight into why you say he is very accessible? Had you been like commoners, i.e. "cattle class" like yours truly, would you have had the same access?

OTOH, I will show you INC folks who are equally charming and don't give a damn about your status. They will give you a hearing. Same with some top-flight BJP politicians. Same with the left/extreme left.

It is part and parcel of a politician's job to be open and accessible. In fact, they are supposed to be in their constituencies most of the time. MP Tharoor flying all over the world on GoI's dime and being "accessible" to the elite in Europe (of Indian extraction) is not all that noteworthy, is it?!
Last edited by Vayutuvan on 13 Oct 2021 08:33, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 2021 Strategic and Political Analysis-1

Post by sanjayc »

Ambar wrote:There are thousands of such appointments everyday and it is not an important enough appointment that the cabinet minister for I&B would review and approve. Remember, the bureaucrats at every level of the government are still a part of the old ecosystem, so they will appoint there own.
No anti-Congress journalist ever gets appointed to any significant position during Congress rule and no bureaucrat appoints their own. Your logic doesn't apply that time.
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Re: 2021 Strategic and Political Analysis-1

Post by Ambar »

It does and that's why I said bureaucrats at every level of the government are still from the INC ecosystem, when INC and its partners are in power these bureaucrats ensure everyone who is not a part of the "club" are filtered out and they continue the same filtration when NDA is in power. This is where social media comes handy, bring it to the attention of the minister in charge and hope that he/she takes notice and acts upon it.
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Re: 2021 Strategic and Political Analysis-1

Post by Karan M »

Yes Modi's focus has been on delivering services and he has let the JNU culture in IAS etc continue to a degree (well intended and also can't pick too many fights). They continue to sabotage him.

Chaps like Javdekar did nothing in the educational portfolio either. Sampath today openly showed how NCERT textbooks remain a cesspool. Many such chaps in the cabinet. Who did nothing much or only did something (Javdekar at least put paid to the Jayanthi tax in the environment ministry).

Somebody like Irani should have been appointed for that.

The four arguable areas where Modi sarkar has been hobbled are its inability to push back against the media, it's internal agenda re: education and others, plus the judiciary, and finally internal law and order as evidenced from the Shaheen Bagh and Delhi riot type instances.

In each, its clear the existing establishment is full of previous chalta hain appointees who don't share the existing Govts idealogically strong natsec stand. This won't stop unless we change the recruitment pattern to the administrative and law and order setup.
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Re: 2021 Strategic and Political Analysis-1

Post by KL Dubey »

Karan M wrote:Yes Modi's focus has been on delivering services and he has let the JNU culture in IAS etc continue to a degree. They continue to sabotage him.
Very superficial view, probably taken without understanding the vengeance that NaMo has wreaked on the babus for wasting his valuable time in the first term (2014-19).

The solution was not to try and weed out/punish every lazy or corrupt babu in the IAS. NaMo has better things to do in order to deliver services and ensure votes. IAS babu "sabotage" has no effect on the vote. The solution has been to:

1) Increasingly fill the topmost positions with officers from related services that are not IAS - there are a large number of such services with capable officers who have previously been sidelined by the "monopoly" of the IAS. That is a thing of the past now.

2) Just leave positions vacant that earlier were used to provide a comfy parking spot to IAS babus waiting for a position post-empanelment.

3) Increasing lateral entry recruitment for useful positions that need to get things done.

These processes strongly discourage candidates who are trying to get into IAS for the power and perks, and strongly encourage deadwood babus to retire or leave.
Last edited by KL Dubey on 13 Oct 2021 09:09, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 2021 Strategic and Political Analysis-1

Post by KL Dubey »

Ambar wrote:It does and that's why I said bureaucrats at every level of the government are still from the INC ecosystem, when INC and its partners are in power these bureaucrats ensure everyone who is not a part of the "club" are filtered out and they continue the same filtration when NDA is in power. This is where social media comes handy, bring it to the attention of the minister in charge and hope that he/she takes notice and acts upon it.
Ye sab phaltu ke kaam hai bhai. There will be no end of bhrashtachar that will get your goat everyday. Need to cleanse the system from the inside out, not attack every wart individually.
KL Dubey
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Re: 2021 Strategic and Political Analysis-1

Post by KL Dubey »

ramana wrote:Very correct root cause analysis. Sadly this forum which is overrepresented by engineers and math majors is extremely deficient in common analytic methods.
Not even simple 4 Ws and 1H are used.
Thanks for bringing analysis back.
Whaat to do saar, we are like this only....

Not to go OT, but the fundamental denial of an Indian ethos-oriented education to our last few generations has decimated original conceptual, analytical and ethical thinking. People are overwhelmed with mostly useless information (also called "news") and underequipped with the capability to make sense of it.

The New Education Policy is trying to bring things back from the brink.
Karan M
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Re: 2021 Strategic and Political Analysis-1

Post by Karan M »

KL Dubey wrote:
Karan M wrote:Yes Modi's focus has been on delivering services and he has let the JNU culture in IAS etc continue. They continue to sabotage him.
Very superficial view, probably taken without understanding the vengeance that NaMo has wreaked on the babus for wasting his valuable time in the first term (2014-19).

.
Please spare me your pompous and superficial, all iz well "analysis" picked up from media reports. I am a resident, and have had a ringside view of what's going on. If there is anything which irritates BJP supporters more it's fly by night views like yours, which gloss over actual issues and seek to disparage the reality of how much more needs to be done.

1.Your first claim picked up from the media reports has only been partly successful and has not addressed the overall ecosystem. We were witness to the limitations in even the existing system despite reforms in Wave 2 of Covid. Till Modi stepped in the entire administration had all but frozen up. The administration at both center and state level continues to be significantly dependent on the leadership and very rarely does it take inititiative.

2. Rubbish. If this were the case administration would collapse. Fact of the matter is appointments continue as before and many come from within the existing ecosystem, which doesn't just include the IAS but all Govt services many of which are also afflicted by the same issues. Looks like you don't have an idea of how many state level apparatus continue to operate just as before and how the centers plans are all but sabotaged. Speak to someone who has had to push Modi's ambitious swachh bharat inititiative with "allies" for instance, you'll see the depth of rot in the local administrations.

3.Lateral entries have only just picked up and the vast majority of services at Central and State level continue to be affected by earlier system appointees. Outcomes at state level continue to be haphazard. Law and order remains challenging and despite 7 years of BJP rule, at state level people are still afraid of many communal and other issues. This accounts for a lot of the angst from supporters. BJP has to do a lot more at the state level to make tough administrations like the Yogi Govt., a norm.

Plus all your above claims regarding having babus retire etc, brining in in effective administrators etc seem to lack the ability to understand the prior stated point. The issue is not merely one of deadwood babus. It's of idealogical inclination.

Competent babus are also often against the current Govt and regard its strong natsec inclination as against their grain and hence don't take harsh but necessary steps to protect law and order. I could state far more but have no interest in detailing them given the current admin is far far better than prior ones. At the same time don't try and run down actual critiques based on your inability to deal with facts please.
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Re: 2021 Strategic and Political Analysis-1

Post by KL Dubey »

^^Your assertions are simply not true. I won't drop any names but suffice it to say that IAS babus are having a very tough time post 2019. All three things I mentioned are working. You're free to not understand any of it.

Covid response: the initiative to combat an unprecedented pandemic HAS to come from elected leadership. So Modi stepping up to the plate to get the administration in shape wasn't some kind of "extra favor" done by him. The quality of leadership has been the true determinant of covid response in every country in the world.
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Re: 2021 Strategic and Political Analysis-1

Post by Karan M »

KL Dubey wrote:^^Simply not true. I won't drop any names but suffice it to say that IAS babus are having a very tough time post 2019. All three things I mentioned are working. You're free to not understand any of it.
You can drop all the names you want but kindly don't try and pull a fast one over people who actually see what the pros and cons are first hand.

At least now you admitted its post 2019. Now you realize how much damage was caused by these characters in the first five years.

You are neither witness to the actual changes nor are you aware of how much still needs changing. The situation is improving "one retirement" at a time.

Its one thing to be optimistic and support the current Govt as we all do. Quite another to cavalierly dismiss the reality that a lot more needs to be done and gloss over the actual challenges Indian citizens face when trying to deal with the system.

If people like you interact with even hardcore BJP supporters with such a smug attitude, you'll have them convert to NOTA in no time.
Covid response: the initiative to combat an unprecedented pandemic HAS to come from elected leadership. So Modi stepping up to the plate to get the administration in shape wasn't some kind of "extra favor" done by him. The quality of leadership has been the true determinant of covid response in every country in the world.
A perfect example of how despite all your allusions to name dropping and deep insight, you don't even know what he did and how badly the system failed him.

Fact, Modi set up empowered groups to handle literally every aspect of Covid response last year itself at the central and state level. They had incredible decision making freedom and latitude to do so.

Many dropped the ball during Wave 2. It took his return from WB campaigning to literally get the whole system up and running and speed up response. It was even worse at state level. It took multiple weeks into the crisis before basic steps started being undertaken which any half competent private sector team would have picked up. But despite all the decision making powers and authority, the system didn't move. A clear example of how despite political support they just didn't grasp the gravity of the situation or respond in a timely manner.

FYI, Modi took them to task privately and castigated them for their failures, yet in public it was all on him. So much for saying him taking the hit wasn't an "extra favor". He literally took the blow to his political status and credibility duringthat period. If they thought he was mistaken or couldn't handle it, they shouldn't have taken up the responsibility.

Despite taking incredible steps to salvage the situation thereafter, the same apparatus couldn't even communicate what it did in an effective manner. We saw much the same last year. Completely blasé about how bad the propaganda was and how important it was to see the states efforts to be properly recognised and seen to dismiss panic and concerns. It only picked up later.

Even in Wave 1, it was much the same. With multiple state admins wasting the time provided by the lockdown, all at a huge economic cost, and only reacting when cases started picking up. We saw all this first hand, unlike you.
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Re: 2021 Strategic and Political Analysis-1

Post by Karan M »

KL Dubey - I have no interest in continuing this "discussion" with you. Any more deliberately dishonest posts attempting to gaslight other people's opinions will not be tolerated. Kindly make your points in a proper manner otherwise, they will be responded to accordingly.
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Re: 2021 Strategic and Political Analysis-1

Post by Pratyush »

Well WRT, the babucracy of India. A very close relative retired as a JS during the middle of the first term of the Modi admin.

During that time he was quite sure that if Modi lost 2019 it will be because of the sabotage from the permanent bureaucracy of the country.

When Modi after winning the election in 2019, publicly scolded the bureaucracy. He was happy that this beast will now be tamed.

If someone is saying that the babudom is complaining these days about Modi.

I am sure he is very happy about it.

Take it for what it's worth.

As far as I am concerned, the babudom don't deserve any sympathy.

PS: I will share one anecdote that was shared with me. The babudom used to have proper meetings with proper chai and biscuits discussing, if an officer on deputation from a parallel service had the functional equivalence to even see a particular file or not. So I am not particularly enthusiastic about lateral entry into babucracy of Pvt sector experts.

But still it is a positive development.
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