2021 Strategic and Political Analysis-1

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venkat_kv
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Re: 2021 Strategic and Political Analysis-1

Post by venkat_kv »

Cyrano wrote:This Govt is increasingly looking like a monkey flying a spaceship - unable to use the umpteen levers of the state to communicate, control, command. Random actions and long spells of inaction. But what do we one dimensional breast stroke people know?!
Cyrano Ji,
I would really like to know the basis of the above statement - " monkey flying a spaceship". For all the umpteen folks on the forum, barely any have suggested practical solutions to the problems at hand. As Ambar ji and Tanaji also were making a point about more demands being made after the rollback of farm laws, this would always be the case even if we didn't have the farm laws in the first place. It could have been the CAA if not the farm laws, the assorted folks tried it with 370 and 35A but there weren't many takers then.
If lets say there was no CAA, the maybe privitization of PSU's or banks would have been used. even that would have govt unions and employees on the roads demanding the roll back and asking for more in terms of salaries, perks facilities etc and then slyly adding the releases of "activists" and getting India back on democracy or what ever.
All this complaining goes to show that normal folks want to just get on with their work without any major issues. The opposition is jobless and they wouldn't mind raising hell over anything that they feel can bring the govt down. These tactics will get even dirtier over the next two years. Afterall wasn't Vajpayee ji's NDA 1 targeted day in and day out relentlessly with one or the other and Gujarat 2002 became a rallying point where one section voted against and some other sections were weaned off whether using secularism or unity or constitutional fabric giving the UPA just a little over to come back to power.

people are saying govt is weak, but what exactly do you want the govt to do. Forget firing, even a lathi charge by police will turn a section of people completely against the govt for a very long time. People will point out that BJP doesn't win Punjab, but loosing the Sikh votes forever along with Jatt votes is going to be catastrophic in terms of vote share as you will be swimming upstream with no Muslim, no christian, no Sikh, a large section of Jaat votes and then you also have a section of Hindus who are "secular". and this won't stop, infact after one section is weaned away the next will be constantly worked on.

The BIF are constantly attacking, we need the capacity to absorb all the hits (or atleast most of them) and then collectively strike back. Right now if I had to go off, most of the supporters of the govt are really being "self absorbed". Folks constantly bemoaning we have 303, what is being done (folks should tell how having 303 will get tikait off the streets when they want to be manhandled and beaten or lathi charged) .

While i really do respect folks like Sanjay Dixit Ji, Ajeet Bharati, they are actually beginning to cause more harm to the cause of Hindus by constantly attacking the govt for perceived issues (not real ones, there are other real ones that are also being addressed). Media crooks has gone off the rails for what ever reason.

The best bet is to constantly provide feedback and try to establish channels to the local leaders and take it from there. This is a govt that does listen to people (supporters and even the ones opposing it). if your view has merit articulate it rather than shouting saying I am Hindu/muslim/minority, so i deserve it.

if we understand why the govt is doing what it does, then people can take steps to mitigate issues. (as in is the govt appeasing muslims or is only appearing to do so while it also gets Hindu agendas one by one off the ground peacefully without in your your face agenda).

Article 370 and 35A have gone, Ram Mandir is being built and people who said we will not visit ram Mandir are saying "Jai Sree Ram". Kashi Vishwanath Corridor is set to be opened, a little more effort, perseverance and Keshav's Mathura should also be freed. This all with record NPA's and corona ravaging economy, with the govt getting OROP, GST implemented and not printing their way out as some self acclaimed economist suggested.

It takes a lot to stand with your own when things get a bit rough. I didn't see peacefulls leave the congress when Rahul Gandhi was doing his temple run a few years earlier, but Hindus are having fits if BJP says we are giving some amount to Minorities for education. this should be drilled so that the bharkha dutts, Rajdeeps, varadarajans, sherwani's, saba naqvi's are shut up and then break away a section of Muslim votes so that the govt is not held hostage due to vote share games.

This somehow takes me back to Ramana Saar's observation that when the Kakatiyas were fighting with the Kiljis, a section of the Kakatiya samanthas showed up late for the war to show their importance and by that time the battle and war was lost.

Hope we don't repeat the very same mistakes from the past.
nachiket
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Re: 2021 Strategic and Political Analysis-1

Post by nachiket »

Punjab is a lost cause for the BJP. Amarinder Singh can at most make it difficult for the Congress to win but that will only help AAP. Trading in one devil for another. If the Farm Laws repeal decision was made with an eye on Punjab that is a major error which will cause untold chaos going forward. Already we can see that Dakait is going nowhere and neither are the professional rioters masquerading as farmers. This is no different from giving in to terrorists' demands and emboldening them to carry out more attacks.

My humble opinion is that BJP's internal assessment showed real problems coming up in UP elections which they felt can be countered with repealing the farm laws, perhaps in western UP. Retaining UP is vital for BJP's 2024 chances so a costly climb-down on farm laws can make sense in that situation if they felt it can avert an election loss there.
vimal
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Re: 2021 Strategic and Political Analysis-1

Post by vimal »

If anyone thinks that this move will gain BJP any minority votes then they must be smoking that special Afghani stuff. At best, this is a political ploy to gain power in Punjab with the help of an unpopular figure like Captain, whom a lot of locals don't like. If this gives even a 10% chance to remove Congress from Punjab I'm all for it.
Last edited by vimal on 07 Dec 2021 12:11, edited 2 times in total.
SandeepA
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Re: 2021 Strategic and Political Analysis-1

Post by SandeepA »

What is the forum consensus on freeing up temples?
I have to ask as there doesnt seem to be any thread for that. BJP has had power for close to 8 years and there is no word about temples, was it not in their manifesto? More than UCC any forward movement on freeing up temples is likely to be a real gamechanger.
chetak
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Re: 2021 Strategic and Political Analysis-1

Post by chetak »

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chetak
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Re: 2021 Strategic and Political Analysis-1

Post by chetak »

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Prem Kumar
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Re: 2021 Strategic and Political Analysis-1

Post by Prem Kumar »

SandeepA wrote:What is the forum consensus on freeing up temples?
I have to ask as there doesnt seem to be any thread for that. BJP has had power for close to 8 years and there is no word about temples, was it not in their manifesto? More than UCC any forward movement on freeing up temples is likely to be a real gamechanger.
2 core issues for Hindus: (a) Freeing Temples (b) Treating Hindu Educational institutions on par with minority ones

Neither of them are in the BJP Manifesto
A Deshmukh
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Re: 2021 Strategic and Political Analysis-1

Post by A Deshmukh »

SandeepA wrote:What is the forum consensus on freeing up temples?
I have to ask as there doesnt seem to be any thread for that. BJP has had power for close to 8 years and there is no word about temples, was it not in their manifesto? More than UCC any forward movement on freeing up temples is likely to be a real gamechanger.
I would rather like govt bring all religious places (including masjids/madrassas, churches/convent schools) under govt control.
every money going into every religious place needs to be controlled by govt.

either free temples or control all religious places.
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Re: 2021 Strategic and Political Analysis-1

Post by Hari Seldon »

Prem Kumar wrote:2 core issues for Hindus: (a) Freeing Temples (b) Treating Hindu Educational institutions on par with minority ones

Neither of them are in the BJP Manifesto
+1. Changing NCERT textbooks is also there, to at least not glorify genocidal bigots. But asking for textbook changes even at the state board level is asking for too much, apparently (Exhibit A is GJ where nothing in textbooks has changed in 25 yrs and an entire generation has graduated believing sekular fabrications as textbook truth. Sigh).

Seems RSS is out to 'reform Hinduism' in a savarkarite mold, perhaps. When it really has no business doing so. Free up H shrines, assets, endowments, institutions and peoples to the same level playing field the mainorities currently enjoy == invalid ask, seems like.

Oh, but raise the Q of such reform and the Modi-worshippers immediately pounce on u with #MudiMustRejine memes that were funny maybe 5 yrs ago.

Modi sarkar has done well executing and delivering on non-controversial things - bijli, sadak, pani, bank account, gas cylinder, toilet. Kudos and hajaar laudatory. We all support it on BRF, without a doubt. However, conflating these non-controversial things as the reason H agenda items have been 'crowded out' is a cop out and a non sequitor. One in which Modi-worshippers habitually indulge in. Only.

P.S. Me voted for Modi and shall do so again. But I refuse to worship at the mahatma Modi altar and shall call out gaps and errors as I see them (FoE and all,no?). End of the day, even Modi ji is not infalliable. Doesn't mean we are castigating him. More like empathizing only. And trying to hep with feedback and whatnot. Only.
chetak
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Re: 2021 Strategic and Political Analysis-1

Post by chetak »

Hari Seldon wrote:
Prem Kumar wrote:2 core issues for Hindus: (a) Freeing Temples (b) Treating Hindu Educational institutions on par with minority ones

Neither of them are in the BJP Manifesto
+1. Changing NCERT textbooks is also there, to at least not glorify genocidal bigots. But asking for textbook changes even at the state board level is asking for too much, apparently (Exhibit A is GJ where nothing in textbooks has changed in 25 yrs and an entire generation has graduated believing sekular fabrications as textbook truth. Sigh).

Seems RSS is out to 'reform Hinduism' in a savarkarite mold, perhaps. When it really has no business doing so. Free up H shrines, assets, endowments, institutions and peoples to the same level playing field the mainorities currently enjoy == invalid ask, seems like.

Oh, but raise the Q of such reform and the Modi-worshippers immediately pounce on u with #MudiMustRejine memes that were funny maybe 5 yrs ago.

Modi sarkar has done well executing and delivering on non-controversial things - bijli, sadak, pani, bank account, gas cylinder, toilet. Kudos and hajaar laudatory. We all support it on BRF, without a doubt. However, conflating these non-controversial things as the reason H agenda items have been 'crowded out' is a cop out and a non sequitor. One in which Modi-worshippers habitually indulge in. Only.

P.S. Me voted for Modi and shall do so again. But I refuse to worship at the mahatma Modi altar and shall call out gaps and errors as I see them (FoE and all,no?). End of the day, even Modi ji is not infalliable. Doesn't mean we are castigating him. More like empathizing only. And trying to hep with feedback and whatnot. Only.
Hari Seldon ji,

who is going to run these temples

how will these people be chosen

who will regulate them and ensure that set standards of governance will be enforced

will the Hindu entry to the temples then be discriminatory, exclusive, or democratically inclusive.

will they have a sickular or a dharmic agenda

currently, the Hindus are like an over enthusiastic dog chasing after a speeding car. Has this dog any idea of what it will do if it ever caught the car or has the dog even thought that far ahead.

Don't get diverted by my dog example to derail the problem

I know for sure that dogs are a higher form of life possessing sterling qualities and unalloyed character better than human beings.

They are loyal, compassionate, honest, truthful, and most importantly, they know when to fight and when to concede. Qualities sorely lacking in many humans

I am all for freeing temples but, of late, these niggling questions have begun to bother me because one fears that we just may wind up creating a new and uncontrollable rabid mafia who will behave like that gaddar dakait.

huge unaccounted moneys flowing into these temples will attract all sorts of crooks, criminals, and religious bigots
Last edited by chetak on 07 Dec 2021 14:06, edited 1 time in total.
Aditya_V
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Re: 2021 Strategic and Political Analysis-1

Post by Aditya_V »

Nobody is a Mahatma and we need a Movement-> we should be dependant on few leaders who the BIF can take out.

These non controversial things are important, if people have development and educated, thier vote is not easy to buy and things move to next level, lesser space for BIF.

This is precisely as put by MMS under INC rule "Minorities" have the first right to Nation's resources, this means most of people with Nationalistic mindset have to fight for livelyhood while others have a lot of time for ideology as they dont work for livelyhood.
V_Raman
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Re: 2021 Strategic and Political Analysis-1

Post by V_Raman »

It is going to be hard to run temples free of govt control as there is no religious order to run temples in hinduism to give them accountability/credibility. There never was - temples were always centers of administration - from like forever! That is just how it is for the land. The only way - IMO - is to make churches/mosques the same - controlled by the govt - if that is possible at all.
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Re: 2021 Strategic and Political Analysis-1

Post by m_saini »

chetak wrote:...will the temples then be discriminatory, exclusive, or democratically inclusive..
What does "democratically inclusive" w.r.t temples even mean? And which religious institutions today, be it churches or mosques, are free from discrimination or exclusivity?

Why the impossible high standards for Hindu temples?
huge unaccounted moneys flowing into these temples will attract all sorts of crooks, criminals, and religious bigots
As opposed to the current totally secular, law-abiding and corruption free folk who handle all the temple money today? If we're waiting to devise a "democratically inclusive and totes not discriminatory" structure before GoI stops leaching off temple money, then we're going to be waiting possibly forever.
chetak
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Re: 2021 Strategic and Political Analysis-1

Post by chetak »

Aditya_V wrote:Nobody is a Mahatma and we need a Movement-> we should be dependant on few leaders who the BIF can take out.

These non controversial things are important, if people have development and educated, thier vote is not easy to buy and things move to next level, lesser space for BIF.

This is precisely as put by MMS under INC rule "Minorities" have the first right to Nation's resources, this means most of people with Nationalistic mindset have to fight for livelyhood while others have a lot of time for ideology as they dont work for livelyhood.
in a place like bangalore, these so called educated votes are simply negated by scheduling the election on a friday or a monday or combining it with a holiday to form a mini vacation. the politicos have all learned only too well how to play the middle class.

paid slum dwellers, abrahamic minorities, and special interest groups dominate the polls and bring in a result not so good for the aam aadmi.

biryani, bottle, bus, and banknote works without fail where education and development fails miserably
chetak
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Re: 2021 Strategic and Political Analysis-1

Post by chetak »

m_saini wrote:
chetak wrote:...will the temples then be discriminatory, exclusive, or democratically inclusive..
What does "democratically inclusive" w.r.t temples even mean? And which religious institutions today, be it churches or mosques, are free from discrimination or exclusivity?

Why the impossible high standards for Hindu temples?
huge unaccounted moneys flowing into these temples will attract all sorts of crooks, criminals, and religious bigots
As opposed to the current totally secular, law-abiding and corruption free folk who handle all the temple money today? If we're waiting to devise a "democratically inclusive and totes not discriminatory" structure before GoI stops leaching off temple money, then we're going to be waiting possibly forever.
unless all castes, without discrimination, can enter Hindu temples, it is best not to take control. Keep the politicos at bay

don't care about mosques or churches, not our problem but they are full of people that the stooopid Hindu's have driven away from their temples, thereby weakening their faith, stripping away their hopes and any reasons for them to stay within the dharmic sanatani fold.

there is nothing like "impossibly high standards for Hindu temples"

If we are to start something new, let's start well with iron clad checks and balances. It will take time and discussion but that can be started. without a solid foundation, no dharmic edifice can ever be built.

I have seen enough of "mutt" heads in KAR to be very suspicious of their motives, agenda, and the almost criminal urge to dominate their followers like a central casting evil dictator

temple money today is handled almost exclusively by shady politicos or crooks with a deeply political agenda
Last edited by chetak on 07 Dec 2021 14:35, edited 1 time in total.
Cyrano
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Re: 2021 Strategic and Political Analysis-1

Post by Cyrano »

Venkat_kv garu,

BJP is in power at the center, of a country which is a union of states, not a federation of states like the US. NaMo and his ministers are leaders. Whatever they do or don't will reflect on their personas, their party and more importantly the State itself.

Govts actions can be bucketed into 3 categories. 1. Administration - keep the state's organs running 2. Initiative - policy making or policy adaptation/change 3. Reaction - to events happening within and without its borders, that can impact the State +vely or -vely.

1. Administration - PM & Ministers depend on the existing machinery of officials, processes, laws and policies. The goals here are efficiency, absence of corruption and accountability. The govt has never really tried to take this head on. Many of its admirable schemes are running out of steam.

Ex: Swacch Bharat has lost its freshness. There is even today no real domestic and industrial waste management structure is in place in most parts of India. Ex: Varanasi temple redevelopment zone might be great, but rest of the city is fithy as ever and Ganga is no cleaner. Who is accountable for what improvement metrics? In subjects like these the govt takes refuge behind states vs center and absolves itself. What good is a 5T economy when people continue to choke, live in filth, land and water polluted and in general disarray in ever growing urban sprawls?

Ex: Have any of our Govt schools really improved where millions of poorer children study? We are frittering away our demographic dividend. All the debates on NEP miss the delivery part which is equally important. Oh but its a state subject - OK then are BJP led states doing any better? No answer.

Ex: Is it any easier to start and run a business in India and export/import ?

The Govt has picked some low hanging fruit, but anyone's guess where it intends to go. A 5T economy with the kind of administration at states & center we have will be very unstable even if achieved, like a 5 storey building on weak and rotten foundations. The govt has done many things to remove sources of corruption, illegal wealth acquisition (like CoOp banks reform for ex) but we have barely scratched the surface. I'll give BJP full credit for running a visibly corruption free Govt in the center, its record in BJP ruled states is mixed, its tolerance for non-BJP led govt's corruption in MH, TS, TN, WB etc is baffling. They can and should bee doing a lot more since many of these crooks are also BIFs.

I think this govt needs 2 sets of ministers - one set to drive the administration mercilessly until sustained goals are achieved from policies made and another for policy making & tweaking working in tandem, 2 in a box.

Covid fight as a commendable success, this is the min. level of efficiency, urgency & comm we need as baseline for every Govt dept's functioning to become a developed nation.

2. Initiative : Policy Making - In the past 8 years NaMo led BJP Govt has done better than its predecessors, without fundamentally changing the structure. Law of diminishing returns is at work now, and unless serious reforms of Police, Judiciary, IAS and other admin branches is undertaken now, we will see more and more hurdles to growth and more importantly delaying of the transformation that is long overdue for India, be it in public safety, public health, cleanliness, urban & rural planning, land records, criminal justice & civil dispute redressal etc.

Another worrying aspect is follow through of results from policy making. Ex: 370 is repealed but has infiltration & terrorist activity stopped ? 35A is gone but has the political swamp in J&K cleared ? Gupkar gang is well and enjoying chai biskoot with the PM ! Have any KPs received reparations, respect, resettled? So partial success at best.

Ex: CAA: After letting Shaheen Bagh fester for months, which disbanded thanks to Covid, nothing. Afghan crisis showed those intended beneficiaries prefer to be refugees seeking asylum in EU, US instead of returning to India. But what about persecuted hindus in Pak & BD ? Even in WB ?

Ex: Farm Laws: Why the protests were left to fester for a year, entanglement of SC was allowed, Republic day anarchy, failure to capitalise on its public backlash, failure to bring data to the table and argue its case, expose and defang fake leaders & protesters, and ultimate sudden repeal have done nothing good to the image of the Govt or dignity of the State.

Ramming ordinances through and passing bills with 303 voice votes is the easy part. There is a lack of emphasis and sense of urgency in making policies deliver expected results. Ties back to weakness in revitalising the administration as we have seen in point 1. All this gives breathing space for external enemies and BIFs to recover, regroup and counter attack. And then the Govt falls back on "Sabka aloo, sabka subzi..."

3. Reaction to events : External - probably the best Govt we ever had. Dr SJ is a brilliant choice, its amazing how much he covers and gets done with so little. (My favourite choice for next PM, with Yogi as HM)
Internal: Puzzling and disappointing to say the least. This is where the strongest criticism is getting focused. Examples abound here. Since his Covid bout, Amit Shah seems to have lost his mojo and fire. From Shaheen Bagh onwards its been a steady slide in failing to counter propaganda with Facts, failing to use all the state's machinery to counter malicious narratives. A rumour unchecked will soon steal the garb of truth, especially in this SM era. This is the main reason for my "monkey in spaceship" comment. We've seen chickening out particularly every time an Anti-Dharmic attack happens - be it in Palgarh, WB elections, muslim riots in Bangalore over a fb post, vandalisation of temples in AP, Khalistani sloganeering, Iskon followers murdered in BD, atrocities on Hindus in Pak. Worse, BJP folks themselves support anti-crackers bills, restrictions on Ganesh celebrations, try to grab control of Char Dham temples when a free temples movement is gathering pace.

The BIFs have learned a trick - colour any attack as communal whose defence will appear Pro-Majority, Pro-Hindu and this Hindu Nationalist Right Wing Extremist Fanatic Saffron Majoritarian Govt will get ashamed and chicken out. It will stop using the umpteen levers of stagecraft at its disposal (which its adversary BIFs will never do should they, god forbid, ever come to power), make confused, self contradictory statements and get its brown nickers in a twist and retreat. CAA (Hindus against Muslims) and Farm Law (Hindus vs Sikhs) protests have proved this beyond doubt.

There is the whole topic of Dharmic Civilisational Agenda, I've already posted about it, you may search posts if you care about it.

Finally, if I believed this Govt was hopeless, I wouldn't be wasting time criticising it. Like they say in French, "Qui aime bien, châtie bien".
chetak
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Re: 2021 Strategic and Political Analysis-1

Post by chetak »

let's see what happens now and how much will punjab's share be in the national pie


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Cyrano
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Re: 2021 Strategic and Political Analysis-1

Post by Cyrano »

Chetak saar,
How were temples with colossal wealth managed before the British brought in state control?
Endowment depts are a shame. TN hasn't audited it's depts since ever. TS is imposing a 4% tax to steal temple revenues. Why do we have to start with the assumption that free temples will only be bad? This is buying into evangelistic colonial narrative.
chetak
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Re: 2021 Strategic and Political Analysis-1

Post by chetak »

Cyrano wrote:Chetak saar,
How were temples with colossal wealth managed before the British brought in state control?
Endowment depts are a shame. TN hasn't audited it's depts since ever. TS is imposing a 4% tax to steal temple revenues. Why do we have to start with the assumption that free temples will only be bad? This is buying into evangelistic colonial narrative.

that is exactly why I am saying that the Hindu samaj should evolve a iron clad mechanism for control of its temples.

freed temples cannot exist in an administrative, ideological and religious vaccum. who will run these temples because if we do not have a agreed upon control mechanism and structure, then charlatans, politicos and bahubhallis will take over and unleash mayhem

our rights as a civilization and culture can only come from control of our institutions, so far denied to us because it suits the BIF.

All other systems have failed so far because they were/are all extractive in nature, agenda driven and sought to control the community by dominating their temporal narrative and thus keep the Hindus subjugated by isolating the Hindus from having their say in the management of their temples. We cannot educate our future generations, we have no say in the school syllabi which is set by the commies and the abrahamics, specifically to deride, debase and negate our civilization and culture.

and ever since independence, all the so called pillars of the constitution have actively connived in this treacherous and poisonous enterprise by collaborating actively with the BIF

our sacred donations are not used for the welfare of the Hindus but only for the welfare and pleasure of the non dharmics.

why do they not do the same for the so called minorities, what's so special about them that they get privileges that the majority do not get.

it seems that the Hindus exist only to pay taxes and die. and like oliver, we just cannot ask for more

The constitution being secular is a myth because the Hindus are still very much controlled by external agencies like in the days of the long colonization.

The Hindu's are like sheep and have accepted this sorry state of affairs. Show me one other country in the entire world where such a situation persists

why this opposition to setting up a mechanism to administer our own places of worship

we all know what is wrong. Let the wise dharmic representatives set out a fair and equitable administrative structure and a truly independent overseeing mechanism to the satisfaction of the majority of the Hindus.

Stooopide dissenters will always be there, as will be a great debate among the BIF and white skinned "intellectuals" who see their dominance and hold slipping away.

they have subjugated us for centuries, messed with our minds, and afflicted our future generations with a cancerous ghulami culture

how, when, who has to be debated and taken forward with consensus.
Last edited by chetak on 07 Dec 2021 15:53, edited 1 time in total.
Sachin
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Re: 2021 Strategic and Political Analysis-1

Post by Sachin »

SandeepA wrote:What is the forum consensus on freeing up temples?
Prem Kumar wrote:2 core issues for Hindus: (a) Freeing Temples
This "Free temples from Govt. control" is easier said than done. At least in Kerala; it is only going to mess up the Hindu cause (if any) even further. The bigger, richer temples of today's Kerala all fall in the erstwhile Travancore and Cochin kingdom; and were directly managed by the kings or their favourite side kicks. When these kingdoms signed on the accession agreement they also had a 'covenant' which insisted that these temples have to be managed by the demoractically elected governments. So to execute this a Devaswom Board was formed, with Hindu MLAs (i.e people who are born as Hindus; atheist commies will also fit the bill) decide on who are part of the board. To oversee the functioning of these Boards there is a Devaswom Bench at Kerala High Court which have Hindu judges. This seems to be the most practical working solution at the moment. These temples cannot be given to any other organization for running the show; because such organisations are often caste based. Any Hindu would be able to visit the temple, but there would be cases that temple management may move to one caste (and members from other caste just boycott the temple). The Devaswom Board on the other hand generally has representation from all prominent caste, and reserved seats for SC/ST & lady members. Only problem is that even people who want to destory the religion can be part of the Devaswom Boards if they prove that they are Hindus.
Cyrano wrote:How were temples with colossal wealth managed before the British brought in state control?
In KL context; major temples in Central & South Kerala (Cochin & Travancore respectively) were managed by kings. The Brits had no role in managing the show at the temples. And in KL, there were cases of kings actually pledging temple assets to build railway lines etc - for the betterment of the people. In Malabar district (North Kerala) temples were managed by local fuedal families, or revenue officials (who carried the role hereditarily). And the impact can be seen now. None of these old families are able to manage the temples in this area.
chetak
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Re: 2021 Strategic and Political Analysis-1

Post by chetak »

Sachin wrote:
SandeepA wrote:What is the forum consensus on freeing up temples?
Prem Kumar wrote:2 core issues for Hindus: (a) Freeing Temples
This "Free temples from Govt. control" is easier said than done. At least in Kerala; it is only going to mess up the Hindu cause (if any) even further. The bigger, richer temples of today's Kerala all fall in the erstwhile Travancore and Cochin kingdom; and were directly managed by the kings or their favourite side kicks. When these kingdoms signed on the accession agreement they also had a 'covenant' which insisted that these temples have to be managed by the demoractically elected governments. So to execute this a Devaswom Board was formed, with Hindu MLAs (i.e people who are born as Hindus; atheist commies will also fit the bill) decide on who are part of the board. To oversee the functioning of these Boards there is a Devaswom Bench at Kerala High Court which have Hindu judges. This seems to be the most practical working solution at the moment. These temples cannot be given to any other organization for running the show; because such organisations are often caste based. Any Hindu would be able to visit the temple, but there would be cases that temple management may move to one caste (and members from other caste just boycott the temple). The Devaswom Board on the other hand generally has representation from all prominent caste, and reserved seats for SC/ST & lady members. Only problem is that even people who want to destory the religion can be part of the Devaswom Boards if they prove that they are Hindus.
Cyrano wrote:How were temples with colossal wealth managed before the British brought in state control?
In KL context; major temples in Central & South Kerala (Cochin & Travancore respectively) were managed by kings. The Brits had no role in managing the show at the temples. And in KL, there were cases of kings actually pledging temple assets to build railway lines etc - for the betterment of the people. In Malabar district (North Kerala) temples were managed by local fuedal families, or revenue officials (who carried the role hereditarily). And the impact can be seen now. None of these old families are able to manage the temples in this area.
free temples means completely freeing them from all hereditary and govt control.

It should be the responsibility of the community to administer them, for the good of the community and the future of the coming generations
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Re: 2021 Strategic and Political Analysis-1

Post by Yagnasri »

I have published an article on temple management on MyindMakers. Please go through the same. A draft structure for administration of temples is being prepared and will be sent to them for publicizing this week. Please give your inputs there.
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Re: 2021 Strategic and Political Analysis-1

Post by Najunamar »

I believe it should be handled by the various peetams established by the great Acharyas (Shankara, Ramanuja and Madhva). They can elect a governing council to ensure vaidheega dharma prevails. Everything is derived from the Vedhaas. So it has to be central for governing all the temples (2 broad divisions aagama and vaidheega style worshipped temples and corresponding governance structures to be set up. Like Sureshwara did for the 5 principal and numerous small shankara matams).
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Re: 2021 Strategic and Political Analysis-1

Post by Cyrano »

Good initiative. Please give link saar
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Re: 2021 Strategic and Political Analysis-1

Post by Cyrano »

Freeing temples from govt control doesn't mean they should be totally outside the purview of any oversight and above laws of the land that do not conflict with dharmic traditions.

The emphasis is on not letting govt decide how temples should be run - the endowment babus are not qualified in relevant shashtras or understand the traditions and sampradayas, they shouldn't be deciding how temple funds should be used. They shouldn't be imposing VvIP protocols violating aagama shashtras, nor impose darshan fees. Nor siphoning funds into govt pockets, and scamming temple assets.

If temples come up with a code of conduct great. If they don't it's still not Govt's business to regulate them. Mismanaged temples is a Hindu society problem not Govt's problem.

Exactly the same is being applied for Wakf properties thru the 1994 Wakf act. Then why should such freedom be denied to Hindus in a secular country?

There will be some bad apples, but I'd repose my faith in Dharmic self correction than organised govt loot and desecration.
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Re: 2021 Strategic and Political Analysis-1

Post by Yagnasri »

Cyrano wrote:Good initiative. Please give link saar
https://myind.net/Home/viewArticle/a-mo ... maj-part-1
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Re: 2021 Strategic and Political Analysis-1

Post by RajaRudra »

Najunamar wrote:I believe it should be handled by the various peetams established by the great Acharyas (Shankara, Ramanuja and Madhva). They can elect a governing council to ensure vaidheega dharma prevails. Everything is derived from the Vedhaas. So it has to be central for governing all the temples (2 broad divisions aagama and vaidheega style worshipped temples and corresponding governance structures to be set up. Like Sureshwara did for the 5 principal and numerous small shankara matams).
I am for all the temples be managed by the people who really believe in the existence of the god(deity / avatar ).

The problem statement i am seeing is
1) The temples of the same school of thought can be managed and should be managed by the mutt. - Currently managed by Govt Board
2) There are many temples - Which are revered and worshipped by all the people. Who or Which mutt should manage those. My View is the leadership to that role should come organically from that locality across all the castes/sects. - Currently managed by Govt Board
3) 90% of the temples are small and currently managed(miss) by the respective state governments endowment board. Many temples don't even have person to light the lamp one time a day. The States temple board which managed big temples and in a way minting money don't bother about this big majority small temples.
This temples - Local people should be empowered and encouraged to take ownership of the maintenance and daily rituals. Not necessarily only brahmin thing again, many village temples are used to usually managed by local poojaris and that system should now return.

In a way, Each street and each house can be encouraged to look after the welfare of at least one temple. This way, every one in the country will come to realize the importance of our age old customs/culture locally and in way help us build the teams and communication.
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Re: 2021 Strategic and Political Analysis-1

Post by RajaRudra »

Totally my personal view. Over many centuries here in India, wealth of temples is the magnet that is attracting a lot of invading and plundering. We should find a way to channelize the wealth and exhaust it every year one way or the other so that one incentive of attacking the temple is taken away.

Temples money(that year collection) could well be used for raising and running schools. - Students, Teachers, Management , Contractors, Third party contractors to the last servicing electrician should only be a practicing Hindu and should be made to sign the same.
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Re: 2021 Strategic and Political Analysis-1

Post by Najunamar »

It is my belief that the 3 Acharyas transcend all castes and creeds and have earned the Jagadhguru title, so no need to over complicate. A consortium of the 5 peetathipathis as well as various Jeeyars (Ahobilam and others) as well as Udipi math swamigal can perfectly handle all the temples of Bharathavarsha. If privately constructed they can continue to exist alone but all temples will be managed by this group.
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Re: 2021 Strategic and Political Analysis-1

Post by Hari Seldon »

Times Now reporting that farmers may call off stir as 'govt has accepted demands'. I just hope they haven't accepted MSP demand that is sure to bankrupt the country.

https://twitter.com/TimesNow/status/146 ... 31169?s=20

Video at the link above.
TIMES NOW
@TimesNow
·
25m
Farmers to end protest soon? Kisan neta confirms that 'Govt has more or less agreed to pending demands'.

Farmer leaders to brief media shortly.

Priyank and Madhavdas with analysis. | #FarmersProtest #FarmBills
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Re: 2021 Strategic and Political Analysis-1

Post by chetak »

Image
chetak
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Re: 2021 Strategic and Political Analysis-1

Post by chetak »

The word "Hindu" disappeared from the maharashtra secondary and higher secondary forms in the religion column... "Non Minority" was used instead of "Hindu"... This is a first, NO?


Image

via François Gautier@fgautier26
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Re: 2021 Strategic and Political Analysis-1

Post by chetak »

and our great swamy..............gaddar genes will always dominate, no matter what Dakshina was given or by whom it was given



Image


via opindia

based on, what else, but a misleading article by the local edition of the global times, published from madras with a name that shrieks " majority community"

Image
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Re: 2021 Strategic and Political Analysis-1

Post by Sachin »

Hari Seldon wrote: I just hope they haven't accepted MSP demand that is sure to bankrupt the country.
From what I read from a pro-farmer broker news paper. There is a committee being formed to study MSP demands. Cases against the farmers for 'stubble burning' will be dropped. The farmer brokers have also demanded some land at Singhu to build a 'memorial'. The more I read; the more I feel this is a capitulation lock stock barrel. Now it is doubtful that CAA Rules also would see the light of the day. :roll:
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Re: 2021 Strategic and Political Analysis-1

Post by chetak »

Sachin wrote:
Hari Seldon wrote: I just hope they haven't accepted MSP demand that is sure to bankrupt the country.
From what I read from a pro-farmer broker news paper. There is a committee being formed to study MSP demands. Cases against the farmers for 'stubble burning' will be dropped. The farmer brokers have also demanded some land at Singhu to build a 'memorial'. The more I read; the more I feel this is a capitulation lock stock barrel. Now it is doubtful that CAA Rules also would see the light of the day. :roll:

what Churchill said to Chamberlain comes to mind today: you were given the choice between war and dishonour; you chose dishonour, and you will have war.
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Re: 2021 Strategic and Political Analysis-1

Post by CalvinH »

Atmavik wrote:Thread after Thread the same story.. we are a fortress besieged from inside. This is depressing state of affairs
I see it differently. Now at least these BIF forces have been forced to come out and fight on the streets. They were able to do everything behind the scenes till 6 years ago. In the process we have seen the real levers, abilities and weaknesses. This itself is a very important part of the progression towards weakening these forces.

6+ years ago it was hard to see the real opposition, their agents and reach clearly. The revelation itself has led to unprecedented consolidation in nationalistic sentiments. Many still get emotional and expect fast results but there is significant growth in number of people who are now seeing the bigger picture. This is purely because these forces were forced to show up and the debate/discussions/facts that followed. You cant do it against vague opposition that hides behind theme like Idea of India, ganga jamuni tehzeeb and use low level agents.

Rome was not build in a day. Last 6 years have been incredible in regaining what was lost for many years.
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Re: 2021 Strategic and Political Analysis-1

Post by Cyrano »

This is what the govt is agreeing to:
The demands are: Legal guarantee of MSP for all produce based on C2+50% formula; withdrawal of draft Electricity Amendment Bill, 2020/2021; removal of the penal provisions on farmers in the Commission for Air Quality Management in the National Capital Region and Adjoining Areas Act 2021; withdrawal of false cases registered against the farmers over the course of the ongoing movement; dismissal and arrest of Union Minister of State Ajay Mishra Teni in connection with the Lakhimpur Kheri incident; compensation and rehabilitation to the families of the who died during the farm movement; allocation of land for a memorial to them at Singhu.
Shameful sellout.
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Re: 2021 Strategic and Political Analysis-1

Post by Cyrano »

In case you are wondering,
As per the A2 method, the MSP is fixed at 50% more than the amount the farmer spends on farming including the expenditure on seeds, fertilisers, pesticides, and labour.
The C2 method, on the other hand, performs calculations involving a wider range of inputs. This includes, in addition to the factors used to calculate A2, the economic value of the efforts of family members working on the farm, and the value of other expenses, including rent and other assets. After these are calculated, the MSP is determined to be 50% more than the amount derived.
Wah re! Chori, seena zori !!
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Re: 2021 Strategic and Political Analysis-1

Post by Sicanta »

Didnt find this news being covered anywhere else so for now I am cautiously optimistic that BJP will not waste the once in generation mandate.
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