2021 Strategic and Political Analysis-1

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Ambar
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Re: 2021 Strategic and Political Analysis-1

Post by Ambar »

arshyam wrote:Why did this necessity for a Patidar leader not work when Modi was CM? Or when ABV sent him to take over the govt? What's changed now?
After 5 consecutive terms there is always a rise in factionalism unless your name is Naveen Patnaik.
shravanp
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Re: 2021 Strategic and Political Analysis-1

Post by shravanp »

chetak wrote:via @RaveenKr

LONG Thread. Worth reading:

A perfectly worded statement by our EA Minister @DrSJaishankar during his speech in USA.

What a man! What a choice to deliver a Resurgent India's Message on Foreign Soil!

Its called 'GIVING IT RIGHT BACK'
Read on

@sjaishankar is a Gutsy, No Nonsense, always armed with facts, Articulate, Diplomat, who can Hold his Audience attn, with his Splendid Articulation!
Tried searching from google chacha, but can't seem to find any articles. Pretty powerful statements made by Jaishankar-ji.
KLNMurthy
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Re: 2021 Strategic and Political Analysis-1

Post by KLNMurthy »

Mods, is it possible to save or pin the reports by Cyrano et al on the DGH conference? There is a a lot of valuable information there, which shouldn’t be lost.

Cyrano & others: my hat is off for taking the time to attend and summarize and compliments for the objective quality of your summaries.
KLNMurthy
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Re: 2021 Strategic and Political Analysis-1

Post by KLNMurthy »

Cyrano wrote:Good summary krithivas, you should do a few more :wink:
I found this discussion much better than the rest, purely because STEM fields force more logic to be applied than other fields and if you go subjective beyond a point you loose all professional credibility. Humanities can get away with much worse because their toxic effects show up later and over time. Heck Marx may be in fashion long after Einstein is forgotten!

Speakers rightly called out ppl who make claims like "ancient India had aerospace industry since Ram had pushpaka vimana" etc.

Warnings about herbal medicines considered safe by default and exempted from principles of Pramana - verifiability, falsifiability, and lack of patient follow up as problematic are right.

There is tons of Hindu/vedic pseudo science floating around. Hindutva vadis who indulge in pseudo-science are doing it a disservice. When Govt bodies joint in, it decredibilises all the other good work.

I have a take on such claims or pseudo science.

I think they are due to a combination of holding science & technology in awe (while not quite understanding what those things are), and the internalized shame we are made to feel about our heritage.

When we are all (without exception, some more than others, that’s the only difference) indoctrinated with the Katherine Mayo or Abbe Dubois or Karl Marx or even alberuni view of Hinduism, most of us abandon it, in favor of something more shiny and “clean.” This abandonment is either loud and open, or tacit. (These absndoners are the main target audience on the India side for the DGHs)

Some can’t bring themselves to abandon their heritage but can’t accept it either. They get no help in understanding how heritage and what is called modernity can co-exist (all available tools for this are in the hands of the descendants of Mayo-Dubois-Marx).

It is this second group that does the best job it can given the intellectual tools available to them. The pudhpaks vimana etc. claims, or even the more sophisticated “bhagavad gita is a management text” claim, are the outcomes of this effort.

I used to look down on the pushpaks vimana-ites, or argue with them, but wouldn’t do that any more. I now consider them my fellow-sufferers from the consequences of 1000+ years of what I have started calling slavery-lite of my people.
chetak
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Re: 2021 Strategic and Political Analysis-1

Post by chetak »

shravanp wrote:
chetak wrote:via @RaveenKr

Tried searching from google chacha, but can't seem to find any articles. Pretty powerful statements made by Jaishankar-ji.
pse read the thread by @RaveenKr

that's why the reference was given
chetak
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Re: 2021 Strategic and Political Analysis-1

Post by chetak »

Ambar wrote:
arshyam wrote:Why did this necessity for a Patidar leader not work when Modi was CM? Or when ABV sent him to take over the govt? What's changed now?
After 5 consecutive terms there is always a rise in factionalism unless your name is Naveen Patnaik.
These guys are now worried about anti incumbency and its possible fallouts

unlike KAR, the change of leadership is smooth and disciplined.
vijayk
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Re: 2021 Strategic and Political Analysis-1

Post by vijayk »

Remember pappu and filthy BIF made that goon as CON president to divide Hindu voters
Suraj
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Re: 2021 Strategic and Political Analysis-1

Post by Suraj »

The forum isn't suited to long term retention of such material, and posters should maintain a copy of the notes elsewhere.

A few questions:
* Has anyone contributed to HAF ? They're a charitable sec 401c organization after all.
* Are there folks with legal education who can parse the records for material that constitutes libel or hate speech ? Might be worth collaborating with the Jewish organizations who have vast experience in this domain.
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Re: 2021 Strategic and Political Analysis-1

Post by Cyrano »

I used to look down on the pushpaks vimana-ites, or argue with them, but wouldn’t do that any more. I now consider them my fellow-sufferers from the consequences of 1000+ years of what I have started calling slavery-lite of my people.
Agree with your analysis Murthy garu. This pushpaka-vimanism is once again measuring ourselves with external yardsticks we've been beaten with from Class 1 onwards.

I've been lucky to have studied in an Arya Samaj school and not in a St.Something convent school, purely an accident because we happened to move houses and this school was nearby and we could afford it. We were taught an extra class on Vedic Civilisation & Culture (or something like that), prayers, havan, few basics of Sanskrit and a bit of awareness that a body of knowledge and thought exist outside the regular school curriculum based solely on western concepts. Arya Samajis have their own limitations, but the benefits out weighed their occasional pushpaka-vimanism etc among other things.

We now have significant awareness, channels to reach out or take from, and ample resources to educate the young and the old to properly decolonise without going to the other extreme . But the real difference will come from revamping school curricula and though it will take some time, the impact will be lasting. I'd love to see Sanskrit becoming one of the language options in school and made available universally.
KLNMurthy
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Re: 2021 Strategic and Political Analysis-1

Post by KLNMurthy »

Cyrano wrote:
Agree with your analysis Murthy garu. This pushpaka-vimanism is once again measuring ourselves with external yardsticks we've been beaten with from Class 1 onwards.

I love that “beaten with yardsticks” metaphor. Would like to steal it.
Cyrano
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Re: 2021 Strategic and Political Analysis-1

Post by Cyrano »

And I learnt a lot from your posts !
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Re: 2021 Strategic and Political Analysis-1

Post by raja_m »

shravanp wrote:
chetak wrote:via @RaveenKr

Tried searching from google chacha, but can't seem to find any articles. Pretty powerful statements made by Jaishankar-ji.
Here's the full interview -

[youtube] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vhm7HJmiVFA&t=411s [/youtube]
chetak
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Re: 2021 Strategic and Political Analysis-1

Post by chetak »

sanjaykumar wrote:Manan Ahmed Asif: once more goads panelists to paint Hindutva as equal to white supremacy and islamophobic.

That's counterproductive. The White supremacist, Islamophobes are all (sympathetic) ears.
whatsapp

this seems to be a fair summary of the whole DGH drama

They couldn’t hide their inherent Hindumisia for long

Summarizing three days of the DGH conference

Day 1: Hindutva is not Hinduism
Day 2: Hindutva and Hinduism are related
Day 3: Hindutva is Hinduism
Kaivalya
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Re: 2021 Strategic and Political Analysis-1

Post by Kaivalya »

^^^

I know there might a little bit of chest thumping, but I have learnt that it might be better than the overdose of vitamin gora that every one has been fed for the last 1000 years or more. Since we lost continuity we simply dont know the difference between interpretation vs reality. For example, here is actual research around vymanika sastra... It is sometimes sad that goras have to verify the suitability of the design because we simply dont know or haven't had the chance to interpret appropriately yet

https://ramanisblog.in/2020/06/19/india ... nia-video/

We need more manjul bhagavas ( who are ahead in their respective fields ) and also dont have to stop at just joking that "pythagoras" is wrongly credited.....the earlier proof could be anything including sulbha sutra by baudhyayana. All because he does not want to sound biased...

https://www.rediff.com/news/special/did ... 150109.htm

Apologies in advance if this is out of topic
AdityaVM
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Re: 2021 Strategic and Political Analysis-1

Post by AdityaVM »

Searching for Hindutva in Google, with your location as India throws up an Ad by "Hindus for Human rights " website definition of Hindutva as the first result. Which summarizes Hindutva as
The Hindutva movement has been described as a variant of "right-wing extremism" and as "almost fascist in the classical sense", adhering to a concept of homogenised majority and cultural hegemony.
Who is paying for this ? Because this is not a usual result in searches, this is an ad paid for by unknown parties to show the above falsehood as the most credible and scholarly depiction of Hindutva.

This is much more than a simple conference, it is laying the groundwork for the next Hindu Genocide.
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Re: 2021 Strategic and Political Analysis-1

Post by venkat_kv »

Cyrano wrote:On Nalini Sundar, she does raise pertinent questions about adivasis rights, freedom to live as they want, practice their traditions and not be forced out of their lands for mining etc. Nor be pressured to choose between cross and lotus. Naxal movement arose in specific tribal geographies due to specific factors that continue to exist today. I dont know about her actual work.

Meena is a visibly nut case.
Cyrano Saar,
Firstly my gratitude to you for being able to sit through this conference and parsing out the data for us.
Coming to Nandini Sundar, as Ambar Saar already pointed out she is over ground naxal sympathizer. these naxals always use some or the other reason to crouch their agenda. (tribals with mining, indigenous people rights, environmental issues yada yada yada). Somebody should have asked her why is it that the very naxals very cruelly kill these adivasis on pretext of being police informers and why doesn't she raise these issues as well.
2. How is it that conversions to another religion helps the adivasis to maintain their way of lives while hindu way way of live is associated with backwardness.
these naxal sympathizers are quite brazen with their useless reasoning. the old coot varavara rao says that naxals are fighting for people rights (by extorting the rich and hacking the poor) and the police shouldn't come into the forest where naxals are hiding and then its fair game for them to target the police/CRPF. Nandini Sunder provides the intellectual cover for these agendas.
Last edited by venkat_kv on 14 Sep 2021 12:48, edited 1 time in total.
krithivas
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Re: 2021 Strategic and Political Analysis-1

Post by krithivas »

Good idea. @Cyrano, I consolidated and converted all the notes to PDF with disclaimer/indexing etc. Can you review it before we post it at a TBD spot for long term retention? // rkrithiv-at-google mail dot com
Suraj wrote:The forum isn't suited to long term retention of such material, and posters should maintain a copy of the notes elsewhere.

A few questions:
* Has anyone contributed to HAF ? They're a charitable sec 401c organization after all.
* Are there folks with legal education who can parse the records for material that constitutes libel or hate speech ? Might be worth collaborating with the Jewish organizations who have vast experience in this domain.
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Re: 2021 Strategic and Political Analysis-1

Post by venkat_kv »

Cyrano wrote:Good summary krithivas, you should do a few more :wink:
I found this discussion much better than the rest, purely because STEM fields force more logic to be applied than other fields and if you go subjective beyond a point you loose all professional credibility. Humanities can get away with much worse because their toxic effects show up later and over time. Heck Marx may be in fashion long after Einstein is forgotten!

Speakers rightly called out ppl who make claims like "ancient India had aerospace industry since Ram had pushpaka vimana" etc.

Warnings about herbal medicines considered safe by default and exempted from principles of Pramana - verifiability, falsifiability, and lack of patient follow up as problematic are right.

There is tons of Hindu/vedic pseudo science floating around. Hindutva vadis who indulge in pseudo-science are doing it a disservice. When Govt bodies joint in, it decredibilises all the other good work.
Cyrano Saar,
I am a little conflicted about the India had aerospace industry due to Pushpaka Vimanas. it follows the very argument of Colonials that its not there in Bible so everything else is a myth. its not just India, but gives rise to loonies from the West (with PHD's no less and having employment from some top tier Universities that say Aliens are responsible for everything building Pyramids and making the crop circles or any advanced constructions). Does it mean that everyone employed by University is a loony toon?

The people advocating about Pushpaka Vimanas should be encouraged to find a bit more by reading original Valmiki Ramayana or Ved Vyasa Maha Bharata and increase their knowledge. there seems to be some research going on regarding Ramayana. attached below is a recent interviews that i came across about Ramayana and various intercepts (unfortunately its in Telugu only with no CC).


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XS6AbHyFBsk

there is a much longer video where he describes about Kumbhakarana sleep patterns that also has a definition of modern disease of irregular sleep patterns
longer version of the same
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNOxwpVTU6w


The Indian Ayurveda can and should be tested/verified, but the principles for testing the same should be based on what Ayurveda proposes and not Allopathy does as both work differently. But the modern medicine practitioners are opposing even the set up where Ayurveda can be setup and tested. There are quite a few naturopathy medicines that will defy modern medicines and their procedures.

I will give an example of a new diet called VRK diet that is sweeping telugu lands for type two diabetes being reduced/brought under control without . it has its very own procedure to follow and that person who proposed this was first abused, then ridiculed and is now ignored. there are people of my family and friends who have found really good results.

As another example Modern medicine practitioners will say that eating ghee will increase cholesterol, but my friends and family who have done this diet eating their food in pure ghee have had some of the best results in terms of cholesterol (the good increasing and the bad reducing). they have done this for 3 months and their readings went back to what they had as far as six-seven years to improve their cholesterol levels.

Not everything is good/bad with respect to Ayurvedic medicine. if we can have holistic approaches based research and they apply that to a population we should be able to get some footing in mdecinal field. otherwise we are doomed to eat the new superfoods like moringa leaf powder and turmeric tablets repackaged as some western modern science inventions.
venkat_kv
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Re: 2021 Strategic and Political Analysis-1

Post by venkat_kv »

Ambar wrote:
Y I Patel wrote:Regarding the appointment of Bhupendrabhai Patel as CM of Gujarat:

* Don't be misled by media narrative of "newcomer" and "first time MP" - he is long timer BJP and RSS sevak
* Long track record of local governance in Ahmedabad municipalty
* Excellent track record of community service in the Patel community (known affectionately as Dada - grandpa in Gujarati)
* Protege of ex-heavy hitter Anandiben Patel, but without any taint of corruption
* if he is not well known, that is only because of the depth of the BJP leadership in Gujarat

Why him? Unanimous choice as a compromise candidate, but there is a major point being made: factionalism will not be rewarded. Obviously chosen because he is part of the Patel community, but has necessary qualities of being good at what he does, being clean, and being able to work well with all sections of the party. Hopefully he will be a surprise in more ways than one.
A "compromise candidate", that's how I see him as well. Depending on the outcome of 2022 elections I hope he will stay at the helm for a full term. I thought Vijay Rupani was doing a good job so its a shame to see him resign before his term. Btw, how old is Bhupendra Patel ? The records say he is 59 yrs of age but he looks atleast 15 yrs older than that ! For a while it was said Mansukh mandaviya could be the next CM, and given that he is just 49 he would have probably been a good choice as well.
Ambar Saar,
One reason I have heard was that Vijay Rupani's govt was seen as not decisive. There were a couple of examples with govt giving the helmet mandates and some hours later clarifying that its only for cities and then again modifying it for towns and then rolling back again. Also, non action on conversion in some of Gujarat regions. but all this could only be a fig leaf for the changes that were already decided either due to covid or any other reason to placate the patirdar community.
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Re: 2021 Strategic and Political Analysis-1

Post by Cyrano »

I think we need an Indology/Decolonialisation thread for the dicussions.

The video you posted on pushpaka vimana is a perfect example of what I'm talking about. The interviewee is making pure conjecture. It is clear that he has not visited Sri Lanka, not been to any of the places cited, done no field research, soil comparisons, not geo mapped the places he mentioned, did no proper linguistic analysis etc. Its OK if I heard such stuff from my grandmother. But anyone claiming to be an "expert" and making such assertions needs to back up with solid proof. Else people will justifiably laugh and dismiss his assertions.

There are so many places named after personalities and stories in Ramayana, Mahabharata and Puranas. Every major language has one or more versions of these epics, and each adds a local flavour to its version. All that is fine if it stays in the cultural realm. But if we bring it into serious history study or scientific analysis, there has to be a lot more concrete evidence based research and analysis.

Just today, I got a WhatsApp fwd I'm reproducing exactly as is : "Ramayana is 1.6 million years old? The four tusk elephant also known as Gomotophotheres. In 1837 fossils were found by German zoologists. according to research these creatures roamed in earth 1.6 million years ago. Valmiki Ramayana, Sundar Kaand says, Hanuman when entered in Lanka. He sees Rakshasaha and four tusked elephants guarding the palaces of Ravan. So Ramayana is the only ancient text proof of Gomotophotheres. If Gomotophotheres was 1.6 million years old, just think how old is our Ramayana?" - This and hundred such examples are the pseudo science I'm decrying.

On Ayurveda: I have nothing against it, traditional medicine and pharmacopeia may indeed have many treasures. The problem is the method. Example: An aunt of mine suffered from asthma for all her life. On someone's recommendation she went to a reputed Ayurvedic doctor, and got examined, was given small packets of medicine to be taken for 90 days. Within a week, she felt great. Within 30 days she started having hair growth on her cheeks and upper lip. I'm not kidding, happened in front of me. Then fuzz appeared on forearms and legs. Her periods stopped, voice changed, weight gain, muscle gain. Doctors in our family asked her to stop that Ayurvedic medicine immly. A month after stopping, her asthma was back to normal. All other side effects slowly reversed. Now we know that steroids have these effects. How did they end up in an Ayurvedic medicine? Was that medicine tested, posology approved? What if she had continued for full 90 days and ended up with irreparable damage to her systems? That is the problem.

Ayurveda, Siddha, Rasayana etc may surely have cures to a lot of ailments. But it is patently wrong and dangerous to assume that traditional medicines are risk free. Medicinal herbs contain many powerful alkaloids that can have devastating effects. Therefore to be able to treat patients safely and better, there is a clear need for adopting the testing and followup protocols of modern western medicine.

Even now major Covid vaccine makers are continuing their studies (they only got EUA) to collect data and keep improving our understanding of vaccine safety and efficiency. Why shouldn't Coronil or other such follow the same rigorous approach ? Take the recent famous Ayurvedic covid cure from a village near Nellore, AP. There has been zero follow up and no news anymore. So what really happened to those who took it? If its really a wonder drug, we can make millions more benefit from it. If not, was it at least safe with no harmful effects over time? No one knows. That is another example of the problem I pointed out above.
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Re: 2021 Strategic and Political Analysis-1

Post by vijayk »

https://twitter.com/PadmajaJoshi/status ... 1757593600
Padmaja joshi
@PadmajaJoshi
A young lady was found brutally murdered in Faridabad in the end of August. Protests from Delhi to Tamil Nadu against 'fascist', 'Islamophobic' India. But.... (1/2)
Image
Image
Image


https://twitter.com/PadmajaJoshi/status ... 1757593600
Padmaja joshi @PadmajaJoshi
Everyone melted away quietly when the investigation threw up a fact check.
On to the next outrage (2/2)
Image
Image
Maria
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Re: 2021 Strategic and Political Analysis-1

Post by Maria »

I didn't where else to post this as I cannot find any dhagas for the National Defence University, but I found this article from TOIlet interesting. Since this is the strategy dhaga - posting it here:

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/ind ... 194346.cms
The university will focus on modern education and emerge as modern education and emerge as a hub for defence studies and ..
Are they trying to decentralize the concept of the National Defence University?
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Re: 2021 Strategic and Political Analysis-1

Post by shravanp »

raja_m wrote:
shravanp wrote:
Tried searching from google chacha, but can't seem to find any articles. Pretty powerful statements made by Jaishankar-ji.
Here's the full interview -

[youtube] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vhm7HJmiVFA&t=411s [/youtube]

Thank you.
chetak
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Re: 2021 Strategic and Political Analysis-1

Post by chetak »

Exclusive Explosive Thread

Today I will unmask designers of planned protests like CAA and farmer protests and Dismantling Global Hindutva conference.

Just take time of few minutes. I promise you won't regret it after reading this. #UnMaskCommunists
via@vijaygajera · 13 Sep




PDF to share on other social media

https://drive.google.com/file/d/14I_2q5 ... 2TIlW/view
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Re: 2021 Strategic and Political Analysis-1

Post by KLNMurthy »

krithivas wrote:Thank you Cyrano. Was trying to match your diligence! :)

More notes, Though I missed the first speaker Manan Ahmed, Anjali Arondekar, Demetrius Eudell, and Deepa Kumar.

Summary: The speakers in the track were far-left/extremist/communist; and the constant theme was Hindutva against Muslims and Dalits even if the context did not demand it.

Prof. Deepak Kumar (Rutgers University, Hardcore Communist), Called Audrey as her colleague
Ø Deep gratitude to organizers against intense bullying. Some self-congratulatory notes
Ø Called out Al-Jazeera and Guardian as supporting their conference.
Ø Claimed they used this opportunity to educate the University Administrators and Senators [KR: riot act probably]
Ø Confessed that she was NOT an expert on Hindutva
Ø Recent experience of censorship in India, White supremacists and Hindutva
Ø Invited for a TedX on Islamaphobia at Manipal University
○ Discussing Islamaphobia without reference to BJP etc.
○ Vice chancellor cancelled the talk;
○ Met INSAAF India and will be hosting a talk as part of "Missing Talks"
○ Blamed Hindu right for everything.
Ø White/Hindu/Zionism supremacy
○ They are all movements that share tactics, strategies and rhetoric;
○ Strategy
i. Called out Zionists that silence dissenters
ii. White supremacy has joined the Zionists to build fear and paranoia against dissenters
a. Racism
i. Hindutva targeted various enemies with knives out on Muslims and Dalits?
ii. Israel did not have Islamophobia, Hamas received support from Israel to counter PLO
iii. Israel developed a framework called Terrorcraft
iv. Laws from India drawn from US Patriot Law
b. Love Jihad, Europe supremacists call Muslims as Predators
c. White, Zionist and Hindutva women are encouraging Patriarchalism

Prof. Dimitrius Eudell (Non-Indian speaker, Too much theoretical stuff)
○ Acknowledge the land of indigenous people (CT); Apologizing for slavery;
○ Indigenous people of India that Ambedkar spoke-down are continuing their struggle. Policing, Low quality of health care etc.
○ Blacks are being displaced for highway project. Neo liberal trans-national capitalism.
○ Went to Dakota pipeline did not acknowledge the rights of natives/land owners.
○ White supremacy …… enslavement (too much theoretical stuff)
○ Race replaced religion as the basis for enslavement
○ Covid issue - Proclaim equality and follow science, but developed nations do neither.

Prof. Anjali Arondekar (Strongly Ideological, Self-identified as Queer, Rambled a lot of theoretical stuff)
Ø Queer Azadi - Maharashtra jailed participants of queer rally
Ø Kagaz Nahi Dikhayenge - Violent and punitive.
Ø Segregation of caste and sexuality, Exclusionary judicial systems.
Ø Embracing Ambedkar, Sidelining Gandhi
Ø Dragged in Aadhar card, "We did not have the right papers and my brother died", from an acquaintance.
Ø Dalit Queer supporting Kisan Andolan; What do you want? And said, WE are tired of speeches and reform and unity, we want revolution, revolution, revolution! Jai Bhim and Andolan

Thanks
R> Krithivas
Thank you krithivas for your time & diligence.
KLNMurthy
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Re: 2021 Strategic and Political Analysis-1

Post by KLNMurthy »

Cyrano wrote:
sanjaykumar wrote:Manan Ahmed Asif: once more goads panelists to paint Hindutva as equal to white supremacy and islamophobic.

That's counterproductive. The White supremacist, Islamophobes are all (sympathetic) ears.
Actually at this point Manan & others got into women's plight in Afghanistan to bash Hindutva. That was a mind bending singularity moment. Thank gods this event ended ! Man you have to be really insane or psychopathic to peddle this stuff day in an day out.
Unfortunately this kind of peddling is very effective, so maybe “insane” is not the word. I would try “evil.”

The trick here is to say these absurd things with absolute assurance. It’s kind of like planting a seed. When the predictable indignant response occurs, some of it over the top, take that as material for your next attack. It also provides retroactive justification, if needed, for your original attack. But usually that is not required, you can get away with just saying that stuff.

Because you are not interested in being fair, unlike your target, who wants and needs fairness, and really has no interest in attacking you.

It’s a lot like Harry Potter “Defense against the dark arts,” the hardest subject in Hogwarts, whose teachers are often pretty dark characters in their own right.
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Re: 2021 Strategic and Political Analysis-1

Post by chetak »

Image
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Re: 2021 Strategic and Political Analysis-1

Post by Cyrano »

J Sai Deepak hits many well deserved nails on our heads in this talk. We need to listen carefully to this advice - his analysis is brillant - and start acting decisively to preserve, protect and further our Dharma. When start doing that all the DGHs of the world can't unruffle us.

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Re: 2021 Strategic and Political Analysis-1

Post by venkat_kv »

Cyrano wrote:I think we need an Indology/Decolonialisation thread for the dicussions.

The video you posted on pushpaka vimana is a perfect example of what I'm talking about. The interviewee is making pure conjecture. It is clear that he has not visited Sri Lanka, not been to any of the places cited, done no field research, soil comparisons, not geo mapped the places he mentioned, did no proper linguistic analysis etc. Its OK if I heard such stuff from my grandmother. But anyone claiming to be an "expert" and making such assertions needs to back up with solid proof. Else people will justifiably laugh and dismiss his assertions.

There are so many places named after personalities and stories in Ramayana, Mahabharata and Puranas. Every major language has one or more versions of these epics, and each adds a local flavour to its version. All that is fine if it stays in the cultural realm. But if we bring it into serious history study or scientific analysis, there has to be a lot more concrete evidence based research and analysis.

Just today, I got a WhatsApp fwd I'm reproducing exactly as is : "Ramayana is 1.6 million years old? The four tusk elephant also known as Gomotophotheres. In 1837 fossils were found by German zoologists. according to research these creatures roamed in earth 1.6 million years ago. Valmiki Ramayana, Sundar Kaand says, Hanuman when entered in Lanka. He sees Rakshasaha and four tusked elephants guarding the palaces of Ravan. So Ramayana is the only ancient text proof of Gomotophotheres. If Gomotophotheres was 1.6 million years old, just think how old is our Ramayana?" - This and hundred such examples are the pseudo science I'm decrying.
Cyrano Saar,
i will try to answer the Ramayana questions here and the ayurveda one in a separate post. The person who is speaking about Ramayana is making pure conjecture, not just him but anyone speaking about things older than 150 years will mostly be based on faith or belief that what we read in different literature will be true. nobody knows if the son of God came to the earth 2000 years ago or the messenger of god had his revelation some 1400-1500 years ago. yet we don't dismiss them as myths or stories and try to confine them to the cultural realm.

the proof/validation for any such is based on texts that are written and the ballads propagated. The interviewee is actually speaking just like you, saying that we shouldn't believe everything and try to see if it is humanly possible. He is not a geologist to go and get soil tests done, but is depending on the tests done by Sri Lankan scientists and govt. you can argue that maybe they are circumspect, but i don't think they were done recently or were done with an intention to get close to India unlike our neighbor to our northwest that has multiple fathers/origin points depending on who is paying rent money.

He gives an excerpt from the text saying that Sanjivani was brought two times in the Ramayana, the first time the mountain was returned, but the second time it was not mentioned whether it was returned back. the soil composition is different there in 5 places and mathces one from Himalayas and the mountain is supposedly named after Sugriva's wife. Now all of this is hogwash/clutching at straws/purely fancy imagination as well.

But shouldn't it be investigated before dismissed. He say that the Ramayana could have occurred atleast some 12000-15000 years ago based on the extinction of the 4 tusked elephant.

Remember that originally, the Ramayana was written off as a fancy myth/story telling by indics which shouldn't even be looked at by the foreigners. Why would there be a 4 tusked elephant if aryans brought this story with them during 1500BC. If the othe rargumenet was that these are just fancy stories then what is the need for 4 tusked elephant, might have also put a 5 horned flying rhino also no?

Nilesh oak also tried to see when the Mahabharat occurred based on the alignment of stars described by Vyasa to come up with a time frame. We can dismiss this out of hand or try to explore this further to see where the evidence could lead.

If we don't atleast do the due diligence, then the space will be filled by self loathing hindus,communists calling themselves atheists and a counter arguments provided by Hindus who neither research nor care for it by argue based on faith and just passion.
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Re: 2021 Strategic and Political Analysis-1

Post by venkat_kv »

Cyrano wrote:I think we need an Indology/Decolonialisation thread for the dicussions.


On Ayurveda: I have nothing against it, traditional medicine and pharmacopeia may indeed have many treasures. The problem is the method. Example: An aunt of mine suffered from asthma for all her life. On someone's recommendation she went to a reputed Ayurvedic doctor, and got examined, was given small packets of medicine to be taken for 90 days. Within a week, she felt great. Within 30 days she started having hair growth on her cheeks and upper lip. I'm not kidding, happened in front of me. Then fuzz appeared on forearms and legs. Her periods stopped, voice changed, weight gain, muscle gain. Doctors in our family asked her to stop that Ayurvedic medicine immly. A month after stopping, her asthma was back to normal. All other side effects slowly reversed. Now we know that steroids have these effects. How did they end up in an Ayurvedic medicine? Was that medicine tested, posology approved? What if she had continued for full 90 days and ended up with irreparable damage to her systems? That is the problem.

Ayurveda, Siddha, Rasayana etc may surely have cures to a lot of ailments. But it is patently wrong and dangerous to assume that traditional medicines are risk free. Medicinal herbs contain many powerful alkaloids that can have devastating effects. Therefore to be able to treat patients safely and better, there is a clear need for adopting the testing and followup protocols of modern western medicine.

Even now major Covid vaccine makers are continuing their studies (they only got EUA) to collect data and keep improving our understanding of vaccine safety and efficiency. Why shouldn't Coronil or other such follow the same rigorous approach ? Take the recent famous Ayurvedic covid cure from a village near Nellore, AP. There has been zero follow up and no news anymore. So what really happened to those who took it? If its really a wonder drug, we can make millions more benefit from it. If not, was it at least safe with no harmful effects over time? No one knows. That is another example of the problem I pointed out above.
This is precisely why there should be Ayush ministry for Siddha, Unani and Ayurvedha. You need to have sets of principles that are agreed upon and propagated so as to get well trained physicians with a proper process approved for medicines manufacturing so that pesticides and fertilizer laden stuff doesn't make it into medical chain.

Coronil was also asked to follow that very approach an hence the marketing claims about covid were ultimately withdrawn. Not every day to day ailments have a decent treatment in allopathy or people have access to it within their means.

Ayurveda, with Siddha and Unani will complement allopathy. But just as our discussion in military forum go on about how the armed forces or mod don't order stuff from indian companies, here we are not willing to give ayurveda or traditional medicine even a chance.
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Re: 2021 Strategic and Political Analysis-1

Post by krithivas »

The consolidated PDF of DGH 2021 posted here:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1H7Jsp2 ... sp=sharing

Please download/distribute/disseminate as required. I will keep the document link alive for a week.
chetak
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Re: 2021 Strategic and Political Analysis-1

Post by chetak »

this must be deeply rankling, especially for the mafia famiglia


Image
Cyrano
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Re: 2021 Strategic and Political Analysis-1

Post by Cyrano »

krithivas wrote:The consolidated PDF of DGH 2021 posted here:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1H7Jsp2 ... sp=sharing

Please download/distribute/disseminate as required. I will keep the document link alive for a week.
Thank you Krithivas !
a_bharat
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Re: 2021 Strategic and Political Analysis-1

Post by a_bharat »

A primer on BIF

Kaivalya
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Re: 2021 Strategic and Political Analysis-1

Post by Kaivalya »

venkat_kv wrote:
Cyrano wrote:I think we need an Indology/Decolonialisation thread for the dicussions.

The video you posted on pushpaka vimana is a perfect example of what I'm talking about. The interviewee is making pure conjecture. It is clear that he has not visited Sri Lanka, not been to any of the places cited, done no field research, soil comparisons, not geo mapped the places he mentioned, did no proper linguistic analysis etc. Its OK if I heard such stuff from my grandmother. But anyone claiming to be an "expert" and making such assertions needs to back up with solid proof. Else people will justifiably laugh and dismiss his assertions.

There are so many places named after personalities and stories in Ramayana, Mahabharata and Puranas. Every major language has one or more versions of these epics, and each adds a local flavour to its version. All that is fine if it stays in the cultural realm. But if we bring it into serious history study or scientific analysis, there has to be a lot more concrete evidence based research and analysis.

Just today, I got a WhatsApp fwd I'm reproducing exactly as is : "Ramayana is 1.6 million years old? The four tusk elephant also known as Gomotophotheres. In 1837 fossils were found by German zoologists. according to research these creatures roamed in earth 1.6 million years ago. Valmiki Ramayana, Sundar Kaand says, Hanuman when entered in Lanka. He sees Rakshasaha and four tusked elephants guarding the palaces of Ravan. So Ramayana is the only ancient text proof of Gomotophotheres. If Gomotophotheres was 1.6 million years old, just think how old is our Ramayana?" - This and hundred such examples are the pseudo science I'm decrying.

But shouldn't it be investigated before dismissed.

If we don't atleast do the due diligence, then the space will be filled by self loathing hindus,communists calling themselves atheists and a counter arguments provided by Hindus who neither research nor care for it by argue based on faith and just passion.
+1

The approach should be to treat them as hypotheses and validate them before dismissing them summarily without understanding the pramanam/reference pointed to it. Currently very few people have the understanding...everyone else is just pointing to opinion ( including me ) If we dont try to validate them it will remain fringe hypotheses like the history channel looking for "aliens" and proving it with our vymanika sastra text with a university of California PhD student. And worse no one remembering sulbha sutra ( the rediff article calls it subh sutra in all the places) or baudhyayana and a few generations later more continuity is lost. I see it clearly in a lot of disconnected indian populations like in Caribbean or africa ....all it takes is 3-4 generations to call everything a myth...
chetak
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Re: 2021 Strategic and Political Analysis-1

Post by chetak »

there seems to be no end to the arrogance and spin of the congis.

BTW, they "made" some pretty useless "presidents of India" and that includes (men and women) some who were spectacularly unqualified too.

So much so, that rubberstamp actually became a bad word and the word "emergency", warts and all, entered the Indian political lexicon

why did he forget to mention chi chi neverwho and his parade of biking clad goris

@ANI·1h
When you see (Mahatma) Gandhi's picture, you'll see 2-3 women around him.

Have you seen a picture of Mohan Bhagwat with any woman?


That’s because their org suppresses women & our org give them a platform.

Modi-RSS didn't make any woman PM of the country, Congress made: Rahul Gandhi
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Re: 2021 Strategic and Political Analysis-1

Post by Rampy »

AA boss Raul opens his mouth and he makes INC dig bigger hole, wait before someone brings in the Gandhi celibacy experiment and why those women where there next to him
https://www.shethepeople.tv/home-top-vi ... ts%20began.
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Re: 2021 Strategic and Political Analysis-1

Post by Dumal »

I hope he doesn't mean that women should be employed to prop up old men like Gandhi was then. Women as cabinet ministers of defence, finance, etc and the largest number of women ministers now vs the lone dynastic women PM then... That is progress not the other way around!
chetak wrote:there seems to be no end to the arrogance and spin of the congis.

BTW, they "made" some pretty useless "presidents of India" and that includes (men and women) some who were spectacularly unqualified too.

So much so, that rubberstamp actually became a bad word and the word "emergency", warts and all, entered the Indian political lexicon

why did he forget to mention chi chi neverwho and his parade of biking clad goris

@ANI·1h
When you see (Mahatma) Gandhi's picture, you'll see 2-3 women around him.

Have you seen a picture of Mohan Bhagwat with any woman?


That’s because their org suppresses women & our org give them a platform.

Modi-RSS didn't make any woman PM of the country, Congress made: Rahul Gandhi
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Re: 2021 Strategic and Political Analysis-1

Post by sudarshan »

Cyrano wrote:I think we need an Indology/Decolonialisation thread for the dicussions.
This one is a good match:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=7200&start=440
venkat_kv wrote: .
.
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But shouldn't it be investigated before dismissed. He say that the Ramayana could have occurred atleast some 12000-15000 years ago based on the extinction of the 4 tusked elephant.
.
.
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Who said that it occurred 12000 to 15000 years ago? That's fascinating if so. Because Nilesh Oak came up with a date of 12000 BC (14000 years ago) for the Ramayana, based on astronomical dating.

Please respond in the other thread, not this one, it's going OT here.
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Re: 2021 Strategic and Political Analysis-1

Post by sudarshan »

Did Congress make a woman as the PM, or did the people of India do that? Conversely, when the people of India voted Indira Gandhi out, that should be also blamed on the Congress - the Congress threw out the only woman PM that India ever had. And the emergency should also be blamed on the Congress.

To anybody gloating about how Congress made a woman as PM, just bring up the emergency and make them squirm.

RG is losing it.
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