Quad News and Discussion- June 2021

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chetak
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Re: Quad News and Discussion- June 2021

Post by chetak »

The west is extremely wary of creating another monster like china which they all did together with the amerikis. They will not be making that mistake again

India with her propensity to pursue an independent path of her own is not one to inspire much trust in the goras by playing the role of a vassal state. The great game continues but with a different dramatis persona replacing the russkis and other dramatis personae making their debuts and an entirely new geography that has now entered the narrative and skewed the strategic mix

anyone in the west allegedly "helping" India by setting her up as a counter to the cheeni is smoking some highly potent stuff.

They will however play off India against the cheeni hoping that India will help cannibalize the cheeni to a certain extent but entirely at her risk and her bearing all the consequences, were things to go awry.

This has given India the golden chance to evict the cheeni from her economy and keep the unrestrained cheeni investments in India under check

the thing that enthuses the goras the most about the QUAD is the RAS or replenishment at sea provided by India and agreements assuring them of short, dependable, and sustainable supply lines, along with port and repair facilities.

India is already in the region by reason of territorial rights but the goras are marking out their presense in newer territories just like canines do by pissing in many places to establish a precedent and assert their right of way and that is where the replenishment at sea provided by India is of vital importance to them, along with port and repair facilities to sustain their fleets if required.

BTW, countries relocating manufacturing from cheen are not all coming to India. India gets only a minority share of this transplanting
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Re: Quad News and Discussion- June 2021

Post by Pratyush »

The west as a construct will try to protect its interests in the short term. Indian interests are aligned with those of the west for the moment. That the potential disruption caused by PRC can be kept at a minimum. Over a period of time as the west is demographically and socially exhausted. Their ability to maintain lead in the industry and economy will also diminish.

Once that happens regardless of what someone does, they will not be able to contain India. But for that to happen India has to play it's cards right.

Being a prisoner of the past is not going to help.

Learn the lessons from the past to build a better tomorrow.
nam
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Re: Quad News and Discussion- June 2021

Post by nam »

What exactly is our issue with the west? We don't like the huge IT & BPO outsourcing? or exports to Europe?

Pakistan? Why should west do our dirty work, when we don't have the b***s to do it ourself? Our political cowardice is not west's problem.

Lecture in their media? Who cares? Don't watch BBC & CNN. Don't read NYT.

Ofcourse the west will work for their interest. Our job is to work for ours. Not complain. The Chinese were smart enough to get rewarded for switching side. US, Russia, China follow no morality to chase their interest. Russia dumped the Northern Alliance in a blink. Supplies arms to our adversary.

Only we are trying "moral high ground".
Last edited by nam on 26 Sep 2021 20:31, edited 1 time in total.
Lisa
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Re: Quad News and Discussion- June 2021

Post by Lisa »

IMHO, there is something else here, ie,

Century of humiliation

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Century_of_humiliation

Both in this context and the loss of opportunity from the “voyages of discovery”, ie the discovery and seizures of the New World. The Chinese had maintained kingdoms whose boundaries where to all purposes limited in that they lacked the interest in discovering new people and nations and thereafter murdering these people and occupying their nations as they felt that their empires boundaries were the whole world.

This loss of opportunity that has led to a situation where most of the available big spaces have now been absorbed into the western sphere of influence, ie North America, South America, Australia and compliant governments in much of Africa. Collectively this is more than half of the known area of land in the world and ALL its attendant resources. They can and never will recover from this as the cultural loss, ie everything from alphabet to language will never change. Nobody in these counties is ever going to really replace what they already have with written and spoken mandarin etc.

The issues with Australia etc are IMO very much part of this as they (the Chinese) desperately want both these lands and their resources but as unable to strong arm these large nations as they lack both the diplomatic and military clout to get the necessary done and furthermore are deeply upset by these nations intent of resisting what little leverage they actually process.

They simply cannot understand how the west, small nations with populations smaller than some of their cities, could seize so much and the attendant loss of opportunity. They are accordingly now struggling primarily to surmount is particular issue.

India was also denied this opportunity of discovery and murder of nations and people it did not know but the lack of a culture that believes in conquest, pillage, occupation and murder means that we have no real hang-ups about this situation. We have also managed one other detail that allows us to manage ourselves in this world, a knowledge of the Latin alphabet and English.

This world need to now quickly understand who has the Mandate From Heaven and how to Kowtow eg India must not only quickly withdraw from Ladakh amongst other lands it also needs to understand how tribute is paid to honour the Emperor, remember quickly!

Just my opinion.
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Re: Quad News and Discussion- June 2021

Post by williams »

nam wrote:What exactly is our issue with the west? We don't like the huge IT & BPO outsourcing? or exports to Europe?

Pakistan? Why should west do our dirty work, when we don't have the b***s to do it? Our political cowardice is not west's problem.

Lecture in their media? Who cares? Don't watch BBC & CNN. Don't read NYT.

Ofcourse the west will work for their interest. Our job is to work for ours. Not complain. The Chinese were smart enough to get rewarded for switching side. US, Russia, China follow no morality to chase their interest. Russia dumped the Northern Alliance in a blink. Supplies arms to our adversary.

Only we are trying "moral high ground".
Yea so we need to be assertive about what is our interest. In the past, for all the hue and cry we make about Pakistan, Pok, Terrorism etc, we only mildly react that too when there is extreme provocation. Think what would any western government do if they have the same power we have. The same thing can be said about how we deal with the Chinese. That sort of gives the signal that we are passive and anybody can get away with anything. Now turning on the page to Modi govt which has been little different, but still a long way to go in asserting what we want and pursuing it with tenacity.
nam
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Re: Quad News and Discussion- June 2021

Post by nam »

Our objective is to protect our people and make our people rich. Our borders our rules.

US bombs this country, Russia bombs that country, NYT says this, BBC says that, none of our concern.

Be a 10T GDP. People can yap about CAA, 375, PAA, DAA all they want.
chetak
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Re: Quad News and Discussion- June 2021

Post by chetak »

nam wrote:What exactly is our issue with the west? We don't like the huge IT & BPO outsourcing? or exports to Europe?

Pakistan? Why should west do our dirty work, when we don't have the b***s to do it? Our political cowardice is not west's problem.

Lecture in their media? Who cares? Don't watch BBC & CNN. Don't read NYT.

Ofcourse the west will work for their interest. Our job is to work for ours. Not complain. The Chinese were smart enough to get rewarded for switching side. US, Russia, China follow no morality to chase their interest. Russia dumped the Northern Alliance in a blink. Supplies arms to our adversary.

Only we are trying "moral high ground".
large parts of India have been culturally invaded, preparatory to possible secession and change of ownership, areas like TN, AP, KER, WB, NE, PUN, KASH, etc, all developed and resource rich lands capable of sustaining large productive populations.

admittedly, this is "informed conjecture" but when examples like east timor are staring us in the face and attempts already made like that done via externally supported forces like the LTTE, why risk everything in the face of increasing civilizational assault by remaining complacent, submissive and docile.

Time we asserted ourselves and stopped these creeping annexations before the flames of civil wars are ignited in our own backyard. KASH is nothing but a low key civil war that is consuming a disproportionately large share of Indian blood and treasure because decisive action is being delayed and we have been dithering on this front since 1947.

the hans are unable to feed their population on the land resources that they currently hold and are forced to look for dependable extraterritorial supply chains and sustainable agrosystems outside their regions of influence.

a few bad droughts will leave them at the mercy of the wàirén and they know what an OPEC style control of valuable and critical resources can do to them and their economy as well as inflame passions in their already restive populace.

Lisa ji, in her insightful post is pointing to a possibility that is both very plausible, as well as, possibly the fundamental driver of initiatives like the OBOR and it's coercive economics that leverages aggressive debt funding which is not commensurate with the customer's risk appetite and repayment capacity for forcibly acquired long term ownership of resources in geographies far removed from the mainland.

the hans have shown interest in growing food in countries like africa and pakistan using local labor but meant solely for export to cheeni markets. Ditto for resources.

India declining to join the BRI is a huge kick in the knackers for the hans and partially explains their aggression in doklam and ladakh.
chetak
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Re: Quad News and Discussion- June 2021

Post by chetak »

nam wrote:Our objective is to protect our people and make our people rich. Our borders our rules.

US bombs this country, Russia bombs that country, NYT says this, BBC says that, none of our concern.

Be a 10T GDP. People can yap about CAA, 375, PAA, DAA all they want.
to do what you say, we need to work with others as well as allow them access to our markets. It will not happen in isolation.

Any gora who comes to India has his agenda as the primary driver and India's interests don't figure in his calculations

Your agenda is
Our objective is to protect our people and make our people rich. Our borders our rules.


and their agenda may not be the same as yours or even complementary to yours.

we will only see the tip of the iceberg. It is the submerged part that is going to hurt us. That is what caveat emptor means

expecting a free lunch today will cause a lot of pain in the form of international arbitration and humongous awards against us.
nam
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Re: Quad News and Discussion- June 2021

Post by nam »

The Chinese have become a 15T GDP economy after killing thousands in tiamein square or doesn't give easy access to their markets. Every tom, dick & harry follows Chinese law when in China. No joker in the west is able to say or do a thing.

Pak has received more than 30 billion free cash in "war on terror"!

If parts of our country are under influence of religious vultures. it is out fault. Our political class play groupism for sake of power. They are ready to do anything you, for the right price. Why blame the west for it?

Singapore has firm laws against such things. So what has US done against it? Nothing. It has happily sold it a sqd of F35.
Last edited by nam on 26 Sep 2021 21:43, edited 1 time in total.
nam
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Re: Quad News and Discussion- June 2021

Post by nam »

Singapore went haywire and threaten it apply it's anti-propaganda law for one tweet from the loud mouth delhi chief minister. It is an ally of US with F35.

What have we done?
chetak
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Re: Quad News and Discussion- June 2021

Post by chetak »

nam wrote:Singapore went haywire and threaten it apply it's anti-propaganda law for one tweet from the loud mouth delhi chief minister. It is an ally of US with F35.

What have we done?
nothing, because we have two "pillars" of democracy that are not only out of social step but also out of cultural sync with the docile population

the enduring legacy of the colonial brown sahibs and the extraterritorial narratives that they have enforced

the britshit dogs have departed but their tail (the BIF) still continues to wag the Indian dog

for the most part of the first 70 odd years, the two "pillars" of democracy were profiting and active collaborators and now they have morphed into spiteful, venomous and aggressive ideological dissenters

BTW, in Singapore, both these "pillars" of democracy would have come to a sorry end with people trying to save their tattered VIP banians and langotes
chetak
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Re: Quad News and Discussion- June 2021

Post by chetak »

nam wrote:The Chinese have become a 15T GDP economy after killing thousands in tiamein square or doesn't give easy access to their markets. Every tom, dick & harry follows Chinese law when in China. No joker in the west is able to say or do a thing.

Pak has received more than 30 billion free cash in "war on terror"!

If parts of our country are under influence of religious vultures. it is out fault. Our political class play groupism for sake of power. They are ready to do anything you, for the right price. Why blame the west for it?

Singapore has firm laws against such things. So what has US done against it? Nothing. It has happily sold it a sqd of F35.
singapore is a benign dictatorship. The people there also prefer it to be so.

you go up against the singapore govt and you die economically, no matter who you are.

The country is influential, hugely efficient, orderly, clean, and vastly wealthy

they however do not take very kindly to criticism and outsiders poking around in their internal affairs

so, when dealing with singapore, people first learn to walk on eggshells
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Re: Quad News and Discussion- June 2021

Post by Cyrano »

'singapore is a benign dictatorship"
My grandfather, a learned and wise man, used to say that model will be very good for Bharat as well. Western model of individual rights and forced equality leads to anxious individuals and strained societies that can be successful for some time but not long-lasting. I didn't get what he meant in those days.
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Re: Quad News and Discussion- June 2021

Post by Vayutuvan »

I will take US/India any day over any kind of dictatorship, including benign dictatorship of Singapore kind or De' Gaulle's France kind. Here is one example. One cannot apply for Singaporean citizenship. One gets an invite from the government. So what if one turns it down? Would that one get an invite again? Wil they be in some watch list and/or will be deported if they oppose some policy or the other of the government? So many problems with that one law alone. What about others like "Cars have to be recycled every 5 years". They don't allow cars more than 5 years old on the streets (or at least that was the law).
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Re: Quad News and Discussion- June 2021

Post by Vayutuvan »

Lisa wrote:We have also managed one other detail that allows us to manage ourselves in this world, a knowledge of the Latin alphabet and English.
That, English speaking/writing, in itself is not such a big advantage nor is it an insurmountable obstacle for the Chinese - unless, of course, one believes that they are somehow incapable of learning a language from the Indo-European family. Whether language actually drives the thinking is something for the researchers (cognitive sciences, psycho-linguistic, and philosophers) to figure out. On a more practical level, given that the Chinese are under a dictatorship and can be ordered to learn English just like they got trained to win Golds in all kinds of Olympics - Summer, Winter, IMO, Intl. Phyics Olympiad, and other such competitions. We in India should not make the same mistake as the US did back in 80s when they underestimated Japanese ability to be inventive.
chetak
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Re: Quad News and Discussion- June 2021

Post by chetak »

Vayutuvan wrote:I will take US/India any day over any kind of dictatorship, including benign dictatorship of Singapore kind or De' Gaulle's France kind. Here is one example. One cannot apply for Singaporean citizenship. One gets an invite from the government. So what if one turns it down? Would that one get an invite again? Wil they be in some watch list and/or will be deported if they oppose some policy or the other of the government? So many problems with that one law alone. What about others like "Cars have to be recycled every 5 years". They don't allow cars more than 5 years old on the streets (or at least that was the law).
Sirji,

It's their country and their people agree with their govt.

any other opinion by outsiders is rather superfluous because, by their definition, they have a democratic govt that works well for them

question of agreeing or not agreeing simply doesn't arise, because we have no dog in their internal goings-on and even the jehadis are quiet there

actually, we all forget, Indian "democracy" is different from ameriki "democracy"

the two are not directly interchangeable or even transplantable

the two democracies (India and the west/ameriki) and their cultural accouterments, social delivery attributes and raisons d'être are different and originate from different philosophies and the two populations are very different too. Democracy is never "one size fits all" or even "absolute" in its operational dimension and social justice delivery characteristics or civilizational expectations.

Because we have foolishly transplanted their version without application of mind, we are in social turmoil today

we are not any great supporters of democracy either. If we were, the "democractically elected" commies would not have brutally "ruled" bengal for over 30 years as indeed mumtaz begum is doing now

In our own case, during our emergency, >99.99% of "democracy lovers" kept their mouths very carefully shut.

a few lonely voices during the emergency time political wilderness could not a democracy make then. A mass uprising then would have proved our love for democracy, such as it exists but we are like sheep onlee.

I never saw anyone rushing to leave singapore because of lack of democracy or even oppression.
Last edited by chetak on 27 Sep 2021 05:34, edited 1 time in total.
NRao
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Re: Quad News and Discussion- June 2021

Post by NRao »

'Quad' and AUKUS put Biden's Indo-Pacific shift under microscope
BY MIYA TANAKA
KYODO

Sep 26, 2021
WASHINGTON – Drawing a close to the 20-year war in Afghanistan, U.S. President Joe Biden is turning his eyes on the intensifying competition with China, bringing into play new mechanisms like the “Quad” group of Australia, India, Japan and the United States as well as a security partnership among Australia, Britain and the United States.

But the Biden administration may need more clarity in its Indo-Pacific strategy, which it says will be released in the fall, with the recent launch of the three-way partnership dubbed AUKUS triggering a huge diplomatic rift with the oldest U.S. ally France, and questions raised over how the two coalitions will evolve.

“While there may have been some strategic thinking to link European allies and Asian allies through AUKUS, if you end up angering a very important pillar in the region, France, I must say no holistic strategy existed there,” said Michito Tsuruoka, an associate professor at Japan’s Keio University with expertise on international security and European politics.

The Sept. 15 announcement of the AUKUS partnership, which included an agreement to help Canberra acquire a fleet of nuclear-powered submarines, was clearly one of the highlights during the Biden administration’s monthslong efforts to rally allies and like-minded countries to counter China’s growing assertiveness.

But the move quickly spiraled into a diplomatic crisis. France, which lost a multibillion-dollar submarine contract with Australia as a result, reacted furiously, calling the announcement “a stab in the back” by Washington and recalling its ambassadors to the United States and Australia.

Tsuruoka said it is important to note that France’s outrage was not just stemming from the economic damage incurred from the cancellation of the contract, but also from the sense of having been “excluded” from the new Indo-Pacific alliance, even though Paris has served as a key driver for broader European engagement in the region.

France is the only European Union member with overseas territories in the Indo-Pacific, such as Reunion Island in the Indian Ocean and New Caledonia in the Pacific.

It has a permanent military presence in the region, with more than 7,000 military personnel deployed there, while sending its warships into the South China Sea, where Beijing has been aggressively pushing its territorial claims.

Japan has also been deepening ties with France, which Tokyo views as a fellow country that shares the vision of a free and open Indo-Pacific. In May, Japan, the United States and France conducted their first three-way ground-troop exercise on Japanese soil.

While the U.S.-France row is not expected to lead Paris to turn its back from the region, Michael Green, senior vice president for Asia at the Center for Strategic and International Studies, noted that France could be “quite cool to the Quad for a little while,” with Australia and the United States among the membership.

Tsuruoka said Japan can play a part to minimize any potential fallout by continuing to approach France to convey that it fully supports the European country’s involvement in the Indo-Pacific.

Despite the “unintended consequences” that followed the rollout of AUKUS, Bonnie Glaser, an Asia expert at the German Marshall Fund of the United States, said the emergence of new mechanisms should be seen as “successes” for the Biden administration because it shows that countries are “willing to stand up to China” even though they are not explicitly framed as anti-China measures.

“The reason why countries are willing to stand up more and do things, whether that is India in the Quad or Australia in AUKUS, is because of concern about China’s behavior and its challenges to the rules-based order. So I think even before they actually start doing anything, just announcing that they have this new mechanism is very significant,” she added.

Green suggested that the AUKUS partnership will have a considerable impact in the regional waters in terms of power balance.

“I think the Quad countries that are not in AUKUS — Japan and India — are quite pleased with this because it will really for the next 50 years reset the trajectories in naval power in the Pacific and from the perspective of those countries stabilize things as China massively builds up its naval forces,” he said.

But some countries in Southeast Asia such as Indonesia and Malaysia have voiced concerns over AUKUS as they are wary of seeing an arms race.

As the two new regional coalitions come to the fore, with Australia being an overlapping member and both groups seen to deal with challenges posed by China, countries involved have played down the possibility that the newcomer will sideline the other.

Australian Prime Minister Scott Morrison emphasized on Friday in Washington, where the first in-person Quad summit was held, that AUKUS and Quad are “mutually reinforcing” and that “they are not there to replace anything but to add.”

Glaser suggested that, while AUKUS is focused on defense technology sharing and strengthening deterrence, the Quad is more likely to pursue nonmilitary initiatives, given that countries such as India, the only member among the four that shares a land border with China, and Japan, which has close economic ties with China, are unlikely to want the group to behave too antagonistically toward Beijing.

Given that the Biden administration is hoping to cooperate with China where possible in areas such as climate change, it is “smart” to frame the Quad as a group focused on “positive” agendas such as providing coronavirus vaccines to Southeast Asia, Glaser said.

But the future course of the Quad may also change depending on China’s behavior, she said.

“If China is taking more threatening actions against Japan and Australia and India, I think we will actually see more willingness for countries to do things. So it is in part dependent on China,” she added.
chetak
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Re: Quad News and Discussion- June 2021

Post by chetak »

NRao wrote:'Quad' and AUKUS put Biden's Indo-Pacific shift under microscope
BY MIYA TANAKA
KYODO

Sep 26, 2021
WASHINGTON – Drawing a close to the 20-year war in Afghanistan, U.S. President Joe Biden is turning his eyes on the intensifying competition with China, bringing into play new mechanisms like the “Quad” group of Australia, India, Japan and the United States as well as a security partnership among Australia, Britain and the United States.

But the Biden administration may need more clarity in its Indo-Pacific strategy, which it says will be released in the fall, with the recent launch of the three-way partnership dubbed AUKUS triggering a huge diplomatic rift with the oldest U.S. ally France, and questions raised over how the two coalitions will evolve.

“While there may have been some strategic thinking to link European allies and Asian allies through AUKUS, if you end up angering a very important pillar in the region, France, I must say no holistic strategy existed there,” said Michito Tsuruoka, an associate professor at Japan’s Keio University with expertise on international security and European politics.

The Sept. 15 announcement of the AUKUS partnership, which included an agreement to help Canberra acquire a fleet of nuclear-powered submarines, was clearly one of the highlights during the Biden administration’s monthslong efforts to rally allies and like-minded countries to counter China’s growing assertiveness.

But the move quickly spiraled into a diplomatic crisis. France, which lost a multibillion-dollar submarine contract with Australia as a result, reacted furiously, calling the announcement “a stab in the back” by Washington and recalling its ambassadors to the United States and Australia.

Tsuruoka said it is important to note that France’s outrage was not just stemming from the economic damage incurred from the cancellation of the contract, but also from the sense of having been “excluded” from the new Indo-Pacific alliance, even though Paris has served as a key driver for broader European engagement in the region.

France is the only European Union member with overseas territories in the Indo-Pacific, such as Reunion Island in the Indian Ocean and New Caledonia in the Pacific.

It has a permanent military presence in the region, with more than 7,000 military personnel deployed there, while sending its warships into the South China Sea, where Beijing has been aggressively pushing its territorial claims.

Japan has also been deepening ties with France, which Tokyo views as a fellow country that shares the vision of a free and open Indo-Pacific. In May, Japan, the United States and France conducted their first three-way ground-troop exercise on Japanese soil.

While the U.S.-France row is not expected to lead Paris to turn its back from the region, Michael Green, senior vice president for Asia at the Center for Strategic and International Studies, noted that France could be “quite cool to the Quad for a little while,” with Australia and the United States among the membership.

Tsuruoka said Japan can play a part to minimize any potential fallout by continuing to approach France to convey that it fully supports the European country’s involvement in the Indo-Pacific.

Despite the “unintended consequences” that followed the rollout of AUKUS, Bonnie Glaser, an Asia expert at the German Marshall Fund of the United States, said the emergence of new mechanisms should be seen as “successes” for the Biden administration because it shows that countries are “willing to stand up to China” even though they are not explicitly framed as anti-China measures.

“The reason why countries are willing to stand up more and do things, whether that is India in the Quad or Australia in AUKUS, is because of concern about China’s behavior and its challenges to the rules-based order. So I think even before they actually start doing anything, just announcing that they have this new mechanism is very significant,” she added.

Green suggested that the AUKUS partnership will have a considerable impact in the regional waters in terms of power balance.

“I think the Quad countries that are not in AUKUS — Japan and India — are quite pleased with this because it will really for the next 50 years reset the trajectories in naval power in the Pacific and from the perspective of those countries stabilize things as China massively builds up its naval forces,” he said.

But some countries in Southeast Asia such as Indonesia and Malaysia have voiced concerns over AUKUS as they are wary of seeing an arms race.

As the two new regional coalitions come to the fore, with Australia being an overlapping member and both groups seen to deal with challenges posed by China, countries involved have played down the possibility that the newcomer will sideline the other.

Australian Prime Minister Scott Morrison emphasized on Friday in Washington, where the first in-person Quad summit was held, that AUKUS and Quad are “mutually reinforcing” and that “they are not there to replace anything but to add.”

Glaser suggested that, while AUKUS is focused on defense technology sharing and strengthening deterrence, the Quad is more likely to pursue nonmilitary initiatives, given that countries such as India, the only member among the four that shares a land border with China, and Japan, which has close economic ties with China, are unlikely to want the group to behave too antagonistically toward Beijing.

Given that the Biden administration is hoping to cooperate with China where possible in areas such as climate change, it is “smart” to frame the Quad as a group focused on “positive” agendas such as providing coronavirus vaccines to Southeast Asia, Glaser said.

But the future course of the Quad may also change depending on China’s behavior, she said.

“If China is taking more threatening actions against Japan and Australia and India, I think we will actually see more willingness for countries to do things. So it is in part dependent on China,” she added.
This is from the joint statement

people are selling snake oil, the amerikis are selling snake oil and trying to convince bypassed, affected, and sidelined countries that they are all on the same team


Image
Last edited by chetak on 27 Sep 2021 05:40, edited 1 time in total.
NRao
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Re: Quad News and Discussion- June 2021

Post by NRao »

Gist of agreements reached during Quad leaders' meeting
The following is the gist of agreements reached during Friday's meeting between the leaders of the United States, Japan, Australia and India, a group of countries collectively called the Quad.

-- recommits to promoting a free, open, rules-based order.

-- agrees to hold a meeting of its leaders annually.

-- affirms coronavirus vaccine manufacturing efforts are on track.

-- will meet challenges to rules-based order in the East, South China seas.

-- will begin cooperation in space, including sharing satellite data.

-- will bolster supply chain security for semiconductors.

-- calls North Korea to engage in dialogue for denuclearization.
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Re: Quad News and Discussion- June 2021

Post by NRao »

Pratyush
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Re: Quad News and Discussion- June 2021

Post by Pratyush »

Listened to the program during my drive to work in the morning.

The interviewer is the most annoying person with poor research and awareness of the topic.

Instead she was her typical shallow self.

Disappointed with the interview.
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Re: Quad News and Discussion- June 2021

Post by KL Dubey »

Don't spend too much time on AUKUS...maybe come back to it after 2030 when the "nuke subs" are actually on the drawing board for construction, if they haven't been canceled already.

The Quad is a substantive topic for discussion, with India+USA+Japan (total GDP ~$40 tn/yr) involved.
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Re: Quad News and Discussion- June 2021

Post by SSridhar »

IMO, AUKUS complements the QUAD.

The Shortfin Barracuda deal was a business deal while the SSN deal is more a strategic one with one of the QUAD members.
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Re: Quad News and Discussion- June 2021

Post by NRao »

I think AUKUS is a break away segment of the Quad, a hedge. I would not place too much importance on what SD says. Follow the bread crumbs of the DD

https://mobile.twitter.com/Cold_Peace_/ ... 7980083203 ----->
"AUKUS is a better model for pacts with Indo-Pacific powers than the alliances that fought the Cold War. Indo-Pacific countries are less interested in pooling sovereignty and creating rule-driven, bureaucratic structures than many European states are."
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Re: Quad News and Discussion- June 2021

Post by NRao »

90 mins long

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Re: Quad News and Discussion- June 2021

Post by Rishirishi »

NRao wrote:I think AUKUS is a break away segment of the Quad, a hedge. I would not place too much importance on what SD says. Follow the bread crumbs of the DD

https://mobile.twitter.com/Cold_Peace_/ ... 7980083203 ----->
"AUKUS is a better model for pacts with Indo-Pacific powers than the alliances that fought the Cold War. Indo-Pacific countries are less interested in pooling sovereignty and creating rule-driven, bureaucratic structures than many European states are."
There are certain things the US cant't share with India or even Japan. Like nuke subs for example. They will only trust White English speaking nations. The strongest allies are US, UK, Canada, Australia, Ireland and NZ.

The west is faced with a great dilemma. How to deal with a non White, non western economic domination ? They need India to counter China. Once China is pacified, they will turn towards India. There are several options. 1 prop up TSP with modern weapons or finance insurgency. India is relatively easy to break, with the many ethnicities etc.

But India may just get away with it. It has the English speaking language, Indians are getting pretty influential in US and a lot of westerners admire Indian culture like Yoga, Gandhi, Meditation, etc etc. So India will have to wage an "cultural" warfare. Both by consuming western culture and by exporting its own. Only if the west/US feel culturally aligned with India, will they let India become the largest economy in the world.
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Re: Quad News and Discussion- June 2021

Post by Rishirishi »

chetak wrote:
Vayutuvan wrote:I will take US/India any day over any kind of dictatorship, including benign dictatorship of Singapore kind or De' Gaulle's France kind. Here is one example. One cannot apply for Singaporean citizenship. One gets an invite from the government. So what if one turns it down? Would that one get an invite again? Wil they be in some watch list and/or will be deported if they oppose some policy or the other of the government? So many problems with that one law alone. What about others like "Cars have to be recycled every 5 years". They don't allow cars more than 5 years old on the streets (or at least that was the law).
Sirji,

It's their country and their people agree with their govt.

any other opinion by outsiders is rather superfluous because, by their definition, they have a democratic govt that works well for them

question of agreeing or not agreeing simply doesn't arise, because we have no dog in their internal goings-on and even the jehadis are quiet there

actually, we all forget, Indian "democracy" is different from ameriki "democracy"

the two are not directly interchangeable or even transplantable

the two democracies (India and the west/ameriki) and their cultural accouterments, social delivery attributes and raisons d'être are different and originate from different philosophies and the two populations are very different too. Democracy is never "one size fits all" or even "absolute" in its operational dimension and social justice delivery characteristics or civilizational expectations.

Because we have foolishly transplanted their version without application of mind, we are in social turmoil today

we are not any great supporters of democracy either. If we were, the "democractically elected" commies would not have brutally "ruled" bengal for over 30 years as indeed mumtaz begum is doing now

In our own case, during our emergency, >99.99% of "democracy lovers" kept their mouths very carefully shut.

a few lonely voices during the emergency time political wilderness could not a democracy make then. A mass uprising then would have proved our love for democracy, such as it exists but we are like sheep onlee.

I never saw anyone rushing to leave singapore because of lack of democracy or even oppression.
It all boils down to the greed of the people in charge of a country. Any system that is not corrupt will work.
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Re: Quad News and Discussion- June 2021

Post by SSridhar »

Rishirishi wrote:
NRao wrote:I think AUKUS is a break away segment of the Quad, a hedge. I would not place too much importance on what SD says. Follow the bread crumbs of the DD

https://mobile.twitter.com/Cold_Peace_/ ... 7980083203 ----->
There are certain things the US cant't share with India or even Japan. Like nuke subs for example. They will only trust White English speaking nations. The strongest allies are US, UK, Canada, Australia, Ireland and NZ.
Apart from trusting only "White English speaking nations", they heave the same ancestry, and are deep allies having fought shoulder-to-shoulder in WW1, WW2, Cold War, Afghanistan, Iraq. Oz even sent troops to Vietnam. US supported the UK in Falklands. Largely, they coordinate their geostrategic and geopolitical responses.
The west is faced with a great dilemma. How to deal with a non White, non western economic domination ? They need India to counter China.
Yes, the challenge to their supremacy is clearly and immediately at stake. However, the ambitions of China to realize its 2500 year old idea of being the Middle Kingdom are equally, if not even more, unacceptable to others. China's unremitting 70 year hostility with us emanates from its realization that we are a stumbling block for the Son of the Heaven to achieve that DNA-imprinted desire. So, we have as much a need to counter China. China's enduring hostility with Japan is civilizational, extending to 1500 years.So, the other two members of the QUAD have reasons enough to be there.
Once China is pacified, they will turn towards India. .
There needs to be no doubt at all about that. Already, the US has learned, IMO, to be careful right from the beginning in a new relationship. They probably learnt it from their fight-for-survival experience with China after having been too generous with them in the 80s thro' 2000s in spite of so many loud warning signals.
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Re: Quad News and Discussion- June 2021

Post by NRao »

A relic of a bygone age? I might be, but I’m not a defeatist
Marise Payne, who has made an art form of hiding her light under a bushel, dashed onto the national stage on Monday, completely unfazed by the blazing footlights.

The purpose of this daring appearance was to attack me for having the temerity to say that the government’s AUKUS agreement re-staples us to the Anglosphere – the world of the Atlantic, while stridently turning its back on our geography, Asia, in the same awkward movement.


Payne and the Prime Minister were bedazzled by the grand reception they were afforded in Washington – a reception any strategic client of the United States would have received had they turned over control of their armed forces to the US. But in our case, turning over effective control of our foreign policy into the bargain. Any prime minister that shops Australia’s prerogatives and interests to another power will always be feted and celebrated by that power. And this is precisely what Scott Morrison and Marise Payne experienced.

The US submarine decision was not just about under-sea warfare, it was about donating eight submarines paid for by us to the command of the United States, as an integral part of its Pacific fleet. Try and think of another country that would do anything this submissive.


But more than that, in the doing of it, rudely affronting Europe’s sole international power, France – the one European state which possesses a sophisticated military, nuclear submarines and nuclear weapons. And along with that, real Pacific national assets. A genuine Pacific power. One could have hardly dreamt up a more adequate or a more appropriate military partner than France. But Morrison, who has spent but a dogwatch thinking about strategic issues and the arraignment of international power, did the French in, to ideologically console himself, preferring instead, the safety of the sweaty armpit of the United States. When should we stop clapping?

But with Broadway well and truly part of America’s DNA, the White House hosted the first face-to-face meeting of the so-called Quad, with decorated desks in its East Room.

The Quad has only one objective and that is to contain China. The fact that somehow, the rise of 20 per cent of humanity from abject poverty into something approaching a modern state, is illegitimate – but more than that, by its mere presence, an affront to the United States. It is not that China presents a threat to the United States – something China has never articulated nor delivered – rather, its mere presence represents a challenge to United States pre-eminence.

How dare a state, as large as the United States, so represent itself. But not just represent itself, possess the wherewithal to possibly become twice as large. Nowhere is such an eventuality to be found in the American playbook. But this is what the Quad is all about. And, naively, we are in it.

The moment a loud shot was fired, the Indians would lock themselves in their peninsula and the Japanese would do what they always do, negotiate from under the table. That would leave the United States and mugs like us carrying a military fight to the Chinese all by our righteous selves.

India is having us all on. India enjoys the impenetrable wall of the Himalayas on its north and the protection of two oceans around its distended peninsula. And it has a population younger and as large as that of China. It is in an undefeatable position. And no power would try to defeat it – certainly not the Chinese.

Henry Kissinger said to me on a number of occasions that he and I shared an important strategic view. And that view, in Kissinger’s words, was that India “would never be part of the East Asian system”. A view I have always firmly held.

It is impossible to imagine the Indian Navy attacking Chinese military or civilian assets in the South China Sea – an area completely remote from the safety and comity of India’s waterlocked peninsula – notwithstanding the odd skirmish each has every decade or so on their Himalayan border.

India is a member of the Shanghai Cooperation Organisation. The other states include China itself, Russia and Pakistan. India will turn up as large as life to the next meeting of the Shanghai Cooperation Organisation, after it has turned up, as large as life, for America’s Quad follies in the White House.

India, a founder of the non-aligned movement, has historically been allergic to alliances, having no desire whatsoever to put all its eggs into one basket – something it will never do. But here we are in Australia, at the strategic casino, putting all our money on black, thinking the Indians will turn up for a major showdown with the Chinese. While the Japanese know, in such a fight, China will obliterate them.

But the prophet from the Shire has wandered into all this, unable to comprehend the vector forces of the subtleties at play, when Australian foreign policy had the complete capacity to manage relations between China and the United States, as we have done so successfully for decades before.

I singlehandedly talked two American presidents into sitting down annually with the president of China, the prime minister of Japan and the president of Indonesia and, in China’s case, persuading them to sit beside the representatives of Taiwan and Hong Kong. That is what I did in developing the APEC Leaders’ Meeting. Could you imagine Morrison or Payne or the growling policeman from Queensland achieving such a thing? But now, according to Payne, I am not up to date, I am too long out of it, a relic of a bygone age. Well, I might be, but one thing I am not – an Australian defeatist who, at the first sign of tension, would sell the country out to another power.
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Re: Quad News and Discussion- June 2021

Post by Cyrano »

Quite an interesting, even funny take !
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Re: Quad News and Discussion- June 2021

Post by Pratyush »

This person is a PRC apologist. Australia has a security treaty with US. Which has resulted in Australians fighting along side Americans in the post WW2 era.

That being the case, permitting the US to base submarines in Australia is a logical extension of that relationship in the face of a China that has conducted act's of diplomatic and economic thuggery against Australia.

Something that this author has willingly ignored.
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Re: Quad News and Discussion- June 2021

Post by SSridhar »

That Australia had people like Paul Keating & Kevin Rudd who led them, speaks volumes about the influence that PRC wielded in internal politics in that country. Australia had to enact laws in the last few years to curb blatant Chinese interference. Keating was also on the board of China Development Bank. Don't know if he continues to be. In the meanwhile, Rudd writes regularly in FP and others about a much misunderstood China.

No country can ignore the 'unrestricted warfare' that China unleashes on everyone else.
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Re: Quad News and Discussion- June 2021

Post by hnair »

Paul Keating article tells us all that is wrong with anglos

- That the pompous white aussie man flapping his gums about India, how it is a timid player and what it should do to better itself is obviously an institutional thing and not just found only in the cricket commentary boxes.

- He is not a relic, but a crime scene artifact from a time when Australia was obnoxiously racist to India.

- Australia fought in world wars not because it was ever in danger but to foster its own delusional views on race supremacy.

- India has very recently stood up for Bhutan, with boots on the ground while Australia was sucking eggs pickled in turmeric during the past decade as island nations in its neighborhood were under tremendous stress from the Chinese aggressions

- “the moment a loud shot is fired India will shut door” comment is hilarious. Forget shot, the moment a loud shout is heard from Beijing, Keating used to fire a loud shart into his whities. Evidently still does. Ironic he is accusing India of inaction when India packed 100 odd Chinese bodies into a neat stack and sent it back to Beijing from Ladakh very recently.

- China pulled millions of its own people out of poverty by depriving millions of jobs from South America and even India, using aggressive state sponsored market manipulations and forced labour of its minorities.

- India does not have any skin in the East Asian games, as does Japan beyond Indo-china area. It is not into any military interventions because of race affinity like the Australians, Canadians and Brits.

- The whole “let us mess up that guy because he has more melanin and is uppity” is a very Anglo-saxon thing which his Chinese buddies have adopted. Don’t expect that from others.

- Kissinger is hilarious when he wipes egg off his face.

- all the bravado about china is there only because US found a need for australia recently. Else it was all pickled turmeric eggs and signing away mining rights to Chinese

For India, Australia has graduated last week from a mildly annoying racist junkie talking to itself to a neo-Paki whoring for H&D based on geographic location.

PS - the French used to marry with the natives of US during the early colonial era and had mixed populations. Not so the Anglo saxons around the world. They went on to become slave drivers(North America) and inventing concentration camps (Africa). When they leave, they take all they can with them (as they did in India 1947), instead of integrating into the new reality like what the Boers did after apartheid or French did with North Africa. If the aborigines had won genuine independence from colonizer domination in the 20th century, Keating would be ra-ra ing the US after growing up in London . We do notice those subtleties when y’all talk to us about how we should behave. Even among scummy colonists, these are the scummiest
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Re: Quad News and Discussion- June 2021

Post by Manish_P »

Super.

Really liked the part of equating the Aussies with the Pakis :D

Earlier of the UK (do they still owe their allegiance to the Queen?) and now of the US.
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Re: Quad News and Discussion- June 2021

Post by Roop »

Keating sounds like a butt-hurt CCP stooge. That article reads like it could have been dictated by the editorial board of Global Times.
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Re: Quad News and Discussion- June 2021

Post by Deans »

Roop wrote:Keating sounds like a butt-hurt CCP stooge. That article reads like it could have been dictated by the editorial board of Global Times.
Dictated and more credible to some, because white man has written it.
It was (and still is) Australia that was the most uncertain partner of QUAD when it comes to taking on China.

While they may have fought with UK/US in WW1 & 2, Korea and in Afghanistan, it was the Indian army that incurred far more casualties in the same conflicts (replace Afghanistan with Kashmir).
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Re: Quad News and Discussion- June 2021

Post by yensoy »

Absolutely spot-on and hilarious take on Keating from hnair sir.
hnair wrote:Paul Keating article tells us all that is wrong with anglos
- “the moment a loud shot is fired India will shut door” comment is hilarious.
Wait a minute, I thought China rise was all peaceful and no shot will be fired. Does Keating have any thoughts on why and by whom the loud shot will be fired? Ah, so he does accept that a shot will be fired... he should rethink his logic.
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Re: Quad News and Discussion- June 2021

Post by chetak »

Deans wrote:
Roop wrote:Keating sounds like a butt-hurt CCP stooge. That article reads like it could have been dictated by the editorial board of Global Times.
Dictated and more credible to some, because white man has written it.
It was (and still is) Australia that was the most uncertain partner of QUAD when it comes to taking on China.

While they may have fought with UK/US in WW1 & 2, Korea and in Afghanistan, it was the Indian army that incurred far more casualties in the same conflicts (replace Afghanistan with Kashmir).
very true, Deans saar.

the numbers of Indian troops and resources committed to the war effort were far greater than most other armies contributed to the war, even though we had no dog in their fight

probably won more awards too, for bravery and courage, in the face of enemy fire.

But they will never admit it even today

there is actually a primal fear that the aussies have about India even today and are very insecure with the rising economic power and the nuclear capability of India, especially the might of the Indian armed forces of today which they will not be able to take on under any circumstances.

when Modi's India quietly, purposefully and singlehandedly took on xi in doklam and ladakh, the aussies were stupefied.
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Re: Quad News and Discussion- June 2021

Post by Deans »

Neither US nor Aus - even with any number of allies, are preventing Chinese Salami slicing in the South China sea, or will have the ball$ to recognise Taiwan. In this century, it is only India that has physically stopped the Chinese and taken and inflicted casualties.
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