Understanding INSAS

Raj Malhotra
BRFite
Posts: 997
Joined: 26 Jun 2000 11:31

Re: Understanding INSAS

Post by Raj Malhotra »

The new colour and sight looks very cool. i have sent the pix to Shiv and in due course you will see then on BR
Nikhil Shah
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 80
Joined: 16 Jun 1999 11:31

Re: Understanding INSAS

Post by Nikhil Shah »

Raj - I would also recommend a read of previous technology piece in BRM to get a perspective on the presentation. Especially the "why" and "why not". I would like to use this article in future for Adm Nadkarni and his likes!!
maitya
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 622
Joined: 02 Feb 2001 12:31

Re: Understanding INSAS

Post by maitya »

Originally posted by Raj Malhotra:
Raj, from that CAG link ... so OFBs has managed a max of 68-70K/year production base ... so discounting all that are produced so far, it'll take 13 more yrs (from 99-00 onwards) to achieve the said desired total of 1.2m :eek:
Raj Malhotra
BRFite
Posts: 997
Joined: 26 Jun 2000 11:31

Re: Understanding INSAS

Post by Raj Malhotra »

Originally posted by Nikhil Shah:
Raj - I would also recommend a read of previous technology piece in BRM to get a perspective on the presentation. Especially the "why" and "why not". I would like to use this article in future for Adm Nadkarni and his likes!!
Nikhil I have read the BRM article and have also posted a link above. I think it is till date the best and most informative piece yet.

(Unless you are referring to something different?)
Raj Malhotra
BRFite
Posts: 997
Joined: 26 Jun 2000 11:31

Re: Understanding INSAS

Post by Raj Malhotra »

Originally posted by maitya:
Originally posted by Raj Malhotra:
Raj, from that CAG link ... so OFBs has managed a max of 68-70K/year production base ... so discounting all that are produced so far, it'll take 13 more yrs (from 99-00 onwards) to achieve the said desired total of 1.2m :eek:
Maitya 80,000+ LMG 8000 + New carbine soon + a new factory (name I forgot) also.

I think 125,000 per year would be more reasonable number. the requiement to my mind was around 1 million. so additional five years. also each and every soldier does not carry around a assault rifle. Think admin & top brass. the one million also includes reserves.

by this time i thing all of infanty and training would be covered. The rest would be just standaradization.
Joeqp
BRFite
Posts: 111
Joined: 11 Nov 2000 12:31
Location: Earth

Re: Understanding INSAS

Post by Joeqp »

Thanks for the writeup, Raj.

INSAS sure looks like a winner. The DRDO and OFB have spent a lot of effort on it, and the results are beginning to show.

One final test of the design would be the export market. If the INSAS can be successfully exported in large numbers, that'll be the feather in the cap (not to mention it will help us recoup the development costs... :) )
Sunil
BRFite
Posts: 634
Joined: 21 Sep 1999 11:31

Re: Understanding INSAS

Post by Sunil »

Raj,

> I understand the learning curve.

Actually it is not a question of you or I understanding. I am talking about the aam junta. There is very little `product-development/design' in india. Most people do not understand why things take time.

People think that because china can make a gun in 10 minutes, and russia can make a gun in 5 minutes.. etc.. india should be able to make INSAS in the same time scale. I feel it is important to tell them why such a thing is not possible without atleast 10-15 years of hard work.

> Defence production sector needs flexibility, dynamism and competition of Pvt sector. In lot of projects I am convinced India can do it, but whether GOI can?, is the issue !

Haan lekin uptil now there was no possibility of private industry working in defense sector. I grant you having GOI try to push things may have been a problem.. but privatisation is not necessarily always a `solution'.

When GOI does things it does so from the ground up.. it builds entire industries. A private company does not do that. It will simply outsource what it cannot make by itself, in a poorly developed industrial country.. this means it will simply import what it cannot make. This means flight of capital outside the country... which in turn defeats the purpose of the indigenous manufacture..

Dekho..i can't be more explicit here.. yeh "privatisation=efficiency".. etc.. sab total scam hai.. to give you an example.. Russian and Chinese governments also controlled the arms industry but where do you see people talk about this? everytime around people start talking INSAS all of a sudden GOI becomes the great big burden which people have to bear..

you get my point? it is best to look beyond all this `privatization=good' bs..
Raj Malhotra
BRFite
Posts: 997
Joined: 26 Jun 2000 11:31

Re: Understanding INSAS

Post by Raj Malhotra »

I think once Avid offered to provide info from janes if required. Well sir if you are reading the thread can you do the honours?

As there is no pm so cannot contact avid, if anybody has his email can you send him my message?
shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Understanding INSAS

Post by shiv »

I can't resist this - and since Raj sent the pics and the brochures and the report let me give you guys a sneak preview of one of 100 odd defexpo pictures.

INSAS - night scope, black furniture.
www.bharat-rakshak.com/Temp/defexpo/rajinscope2.jpg
Riza Zaman
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 69
Joined: 15 Sep 1999 11:31
Location: NYC, NY
Contact:

Re: Understanding INSAS

Post by Riza Zaman »

Got to know about a common soldier's wish for the INSAS AR - a dummy foregrip, would do wonders for stability and accuracy (might have to adjust the wieght of the compensator though).
Nikhil Shah
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 80
Joined: 16 Jun 1999 11:31

Re: Understanding INSAS

Post by Nikhil Shah »

Raj - My comment was about structuring the INSAS article along the lines of previous articles which have gone into various issues related to technology, design, system, deployment, maintenance, export market, etc.... Your article already has a lot of this...just a little bit of formatting should take care of things....ofcourse this is just a suggestion from me and BRM Editors will have their final say.
ks_sachin
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2906
Joined: 24 Jun 2000 11:31
Location: Sydney

Re: Understanding INSAS

Post by ks_sachin »

Hi All,
the LMG version of the SA-80 which the Brits have is designated as the Squad Support Weapon. I believe they also have another LMG which has the barrel change capability. Correct me if I am wrong.
This thing about killing power of the INSAS and the belt fed rounds discussion is old hat. I am amazed that people are still not looking at the way weapons requirements are drawn up and put up to the DRDO / ARDE.
The DRDO designed the weapon keeping the GSQR's in front of them. Delays happen because GSQR's kept shifting. I men a Lt Gen who was commanding the COllege of Combat where some of the INSAS rifles were tested and he was amazed when he say the GSQR ask for a effective range (not max range) of in excess of 600 mtrs for the 5.56 mm rifle.
Some blame also lies with the ARDE for the delay.
Insofar as the jhonny is concerned, he is the last person to be consulted. GSQR's are drawn up by AHQ and DRDO gets them and a bunch of civvies design the weapons. It is only when the system is ready does the jhonny get to see it. THe Arjun main gun has a severe ergonomic problem because of the fact that no thought was given to the jhonnies who sweat it inside the monster.
cheers
sachin
PS - If any one wants to know how weapons procurement is done especially those that the DRDO is handed please let me know.
PS - please also read up on the operational philosophy that governed the GSQR's that evolved into the INSAS
Raj Malhotra
BRFite
Posts: 997
Joined: 26 Jun 2000 11:31

Re: Understanding INSAS

Post by Raj Malhotra »

Originally posted by ks_sachin:
Hi All,
It is only when the system is ready does the jhonny get to see cheers
sachin
PS - If any one wants to know how weapons procurement is done especially those that the DRDO is handed please let me know.
PS - please also read up on the operational philosophy that governed the GSQR's that evolved into the INSAS
If the forces are not involved every step of the way it is poor planning and admin.

yes about both PS, tell us about procurement from drdo about insas

and also tell us more about insas story, GSQR, philosphy and interaction bet army, drdo and ofb.

(please do not cite cag :) )
Amitabh
BRFite
Posts: 270
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Understanding INSAS

Post by Amitabh »

Actually, Shiv, you've given us a sneak preview of all of the DefExpo pix! I especially liked the Dhanush series, including the DRDO launch photo.

They're visibly proud of their products, aren't they?
Rudra
BRFite
Posts: 599
Joined: 28 May 2001 11:31

Re: Understanding INSAS

Post by Rudra »

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/Temp/defexpo/bchinsas.jpg

the scope in this pix. is this the default one ?
looks quite rugged compared to the huge one.

btw are all INSAS soldiers given this type of
optical scope or just the snipers?
Vick
BRFite
Posts: 753
Joined: 14 Oct 1999 11:31

Re: Understanding INSAS

Post by Vick »

The TankEx looks really nice. It is very odd seeing a T72 having a turret that has a bustle. I think the army, even though it may kick and scream, knows that the future of IA armor lies with the Arjun. Especially with DRDO at the begining stages of coming out with a "family" concept for the Arjun with the Bhim and Tank Ex (Karna). If my intuitions are right then pretty soon DRDO will announce an ARV based on the Arjun as well. Just for the fact that I dont think an ARV based on a T72 can pull the Arjun without busting its own engine.

With the appearance of Tank Ex I am now not too concerned with the Project Rhino being applied fully to only 200 T72s. Maybe the left overs will get the Tank Ex upgrade ;)
Raj Malhotra
BRFite
Posts: 997
Joined: 26 Jun 2000 11:31

Re: Understanding INSAS

Post by Raj Malhotra »

Originally posted by Rudra Singha:
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/Temp/defexpo/bchinsas.jpg

the scope in this pix. is this the default one ?
looks quite rugged compared to the huge one.

btw are all INSAS soldiers given this type of
optical scope or just the snipers?
Rudra the huge thing is night sight. the day scope is the sleek thingie.

sachin

I think the UK barrel change thingie may be GMAG which is 7.62mmx 51 and india also operates it. also i think, the gmag will not be replaced but only LMG. many forces that replaces gmag reinducted then or changed their plans.
Raj Malhotra
BRFite
Posts: 997
Joined: 26 Jun 2000 11:31

Re: Understanding INSAS

Post by Raj Malhotra »

Vick

I thing for a lot reasons that Arjun is good project and has a better development potential then T-72 series. It will be pity if something happens to it.

SBM though it was dead. Our resident hardware Nitin has no special info on arjun (yet) and this bad for the health of the project. also some time there was a news report on br that cabinet commitee has been approached to divert the funds to bhim and ex.

i hope arjun goes through.

Riza

i think the carbine does have a fore grip.

what do you mean by dummy fore grip?

also if you have been contact with users, can you tell us how they perceive the weapons.

Neil

kindly tell us what was the reaction of the IA to the weapon?
davidn
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 82
Joined: 30 Jan 2001 12:31

Re: Understanding INSAS

Post by davidn »

Originally posted by shiv:
I can't resist this - and since Raj sent the pics and the brochures and the report let me give you guys a sneak preview of one of 100 odd defexpo pictures.

INSAS - night scope, black furniture.
www.bharat-rakshak.com/Temp/defexpo/rajinscope2.jpg
i just fell in love
:D
Riza Zaman
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 69
Joined: 15 Sep 1999 11:31
Location: NYC, NY
Contact:

Re: Understanding INSAS

Post by Riza Zaman »

Raj, my bad ... I should have specified a dummy pistol foregrip (like in H&K MP5K). The complaint is that its too sleek and its difficult to keep the center of gravity stable because of the mag's small size. A fore pistol grip would make the gun easir to balance and aim to my understanding. Other than that and the some of the older complaints which have supposedly been fixed by now, my impression is that they're not unsatisfied with it.
ukhrul
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 20
Joined: 21 Jan 2001 12:31
Location: K1
Contact:

Re: Understanding INSAS

Post by ukhrul »

The INSAS is a really beautiful and attractive gun!
shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Understanding INSAS

Post by shiv »

Originally posted by ukhrul:
The INSAS is a really beautiful and attractive gun!
One more:

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/Temp/defexpo/d02insas.jpg
Vick
BRFite
Posts: 753
Joined: 14 Oct 1999 11:31

Re: Understanding INSAS

Post by Vick »

All black furniture on the INSAS is so much better looking than the orangish thing before. Can I hear an amen to that? :D
Rupak
Webmaster BR
Posts: 325
Joined: 14 Jun 1999 11:31

Re: Understanding INSAS

Post by Rupak »

Since everyone has already had a sneak preview. Perhaps we should exclude the Defexpo Photofeature from the BRM.
Rudra
BRFite
Posts: 599
Joined: 28 May 2001 11:31

Re: Understanding INSAS

Post by Rudra »

any reason why orange and not green or black was
used on regular INSAS ? wooden butts of old
used dark varnish to make less visible.
shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Understanding INSAS

Post by shiv »

Originally posted by rupak:
Since everyone has already had a sneak preview. Perhaps we should exclude the Defexpo Photofeature from the BRM.
Not so sure about this. Personally - i think the forum links and dioscussions are seen only by a few. The monitor is more longterm and more of an archive - and though we hear more oohs and aahs on the forum as feedback I think there is a strong role for the pics to go on tye monitor anyway.

in any case I am tempted to move the pics to another forlder where nobody knows what's happening :D :D
George J

Re: Understanding INSAS

Post by George J »

Shiv and Rupak:

Besides the first pics of the Tank-Ex (Karan) I really think we could update the BR Missiles pic of Trishul too with the one from the DRDO catalogues. ITs a much clearer and more detailed. pic.
JCage
BRFite
Posts: 1562
Joined: 09 Oct 2000 11:31

Re: Understanding INSAS

Post by JCage »

Re Arjun...lets just say that the Arjun developers have a LOT of confidence in their product.The payoffs from the Arjun have been visible for quite some time now..too many to elaboarate.Its also worth noting that even when the project was facing the worst times-sanctions,technical issues,army upgrading GQSR's etcetc...the project remained alive.Personally speaking, i dont buy into the "now it works...fine...you're happy now,so lets kill it"..approach.Neither,i believe,does (despite all its warts)the indian decision making hierarchy.The Arjun will always have its detractors...imagine the windfall for the russians if the T90 becomes the new IA MBT..

Also note how other so called "failures" are actually coming into their own light,the LCA,the prithvi etc.

And how indian defence projects build core competence which can be simultaneously applied a/c the spectrum.

The team which designs the Arjun gear box goes on to make the LCA one.The ASIEO mission comp is intended for many indian a/c projects etctec.And how Indian defence has its own established and successful composite industrial base whether it be for nosecones,or radomes,or armor or for replacing heavier gun barrels.

Yes,the project has faced a lot of flak for issues both real and imagined,but lets just say i'm proud of DRDO AND the Indian Army for having stuck on to their task till the MK1 became a success by all standards..and it was no mean feat.

As of today,we do have the capability to design and build our own AV's.This is no joke.

Ks_Sachin,welcome back to BR..btw,whats your mail id?

REGARDS,
Nitin
Jagan
Webmaster BR
Posts: 3032
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Earth @ Google.com
Contact:

Re: Understanding INSAS

Post by Jagan »

Originally posted by shiv:
in any case I am tempted to move the pics to another forlder where nobody knows what's happening :D :D
Aah shiv,

you whould have seen me react to Amitabh's comment. I fired my FTP Software trying to login and put an "Entry Verobotten" index.html page into the directory :D , I was also editing a copy of it of the indexpage in my frontpage. Really wanted to be a killjoy there......then my uid and pwds stopped working! :D I could not log into...and everyone had a field view of the pictures... ah atleast I tried ! ;)
JCage
BRFite
Posts: 1562
Joined: 09 Oct 2000 11:31

Re: Understanding INSAS

Post by JCage »

Hey,
Before we forget...hats off to Raj for sending the pics and to Shiv for his intensely patient work in scanning and uploading the material for the rest of us to enjoy.That too when bandwidth may be an issue.Thanks to both of them.

Regards,
nitin
Naidu
BRFite
Posts: 136
Joined: 24 Aug 2001 11:31
Location: New Joisey, USA

Re: Understanding INSAS

Post by Naidu »

Originally posted by ks_sachin:
...It is only when the system is ready does the jhonny get to see it. THe Arjun main gun has a severe ergonomic problem because of the fact that no thought was given to the jhonnies who sweat it inside the monster.
Sachin,

Any URLs or references to the ergonomic problems of the Arjun main gun? Specificly, how does the problem manifest itself? Who is effected most -- the loader or the gunner? Thanks for any light you (or enybody else for that matter) can throw on this.

[This really does not belong in this thread, but I'm trying to get Sachin's attention.]
JCage
BRFite
Posts: 1562
Joined: 09 Oct 2000 11:31

Re: Understanding INSAS

Post by JCage »

N,
I believe the Arjun's ergonomics problems / issues were resolved quite some time back.DRDO-CVRDE setup a team for this task which would interface with the IA.The IA had noted their objections which led to the above succesful decision.

Lets see what Sachin has.Interesting.

Regards,
nitin
Naidu
BRFite
Posts: 136
Joined: 24 Aug 2001 11:31
Location: New Joisey, USA

Re: Understanding INSAS

Post by Naidu »

Originally posted by nitin:
N,
I believe the Arjun's ergonomics problems / issues were resolved quite some time back.DRDO-CVRDE setup a team for this task which would interface with the IA.The IA had noted their objections which led to the above succesful decision.

Lets see what Sachin has.Interesting.

Regards,
nitin
Nitin,

Thanks for the above and your other writings on BRF and Tanknet regarding the status of the Arjun! I learnt a lot. I hope too, that Sachin is referring to something that has been taken care of. That said, Sachin's note implies an existing problem; not one that has been resolved by DRDO and accepted by the Armoured Corps.
neil
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 13
Joined: 09 Aug 1999 11:31
Location: ca, usa

Re: Understanding INSAS

Post by neil »

one other thing that i forgot to mention in the earlier post
One of the other general compliants that the soilders have regarding the INSAS is that there are too many small parts to take care of when disassembling the rifle to clean, and i quote "if a small part is lost its a problem, its expensive and also a lot of trouble for the poor infantry guy."
Sanjay
BRFite
Posts: 1224
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Chaguanas, Trinidad

Re: Understanding INSAS

Post by Sanjay »

Hi,
The pics are magnificent, the write up superb and the discussion excellent. Any more superlatives needed ?

Arjun did have a severe ergonomic problem with respect to both cooling and the solution via an APU. The APU rendered movement difficult in the tank. The solution was to reduce the main ammo load from 44 to 39. This problem came to light in 1996. I learnt this from a discussion with a former Indian army officer then a fellow at RUSI in London.

Incidentally, did anyone notice that the JDW website in its Asia Pacific section has a story that India has contracted with Poland to supply thermal imagers and FCS for 250 T-72s ? Can anyone get hold of and post or e-mail the whole article ?
Rudra
BRFite
Posts: 599
Joined: 28 May 2001 11:31

Re: Understanding INSAS

Post by Rudra »

39 should be fine. lot of tanks carry 40-41. and
this isnt the Warsaw Pact territory.

ofcourse our Zionist brothers carry about 75
in their Merkavas...but its a combo APC_tank
than a tank.
JCage
BRFite
Posts: 1562
Joined: 09 Oct 2000 11:31

Re: Understanding INSAS

Post by JCage »

Apologies for deviating from the thread...

N,
Thanks.Data on the Arjun is hard to come by..hence the need to continue discussing and disseminating info.Lots of myths to be broken!

Sanjay,

So is the APU part of the MK1 already?We do know that the MK2 is supposed to have one...the question is that does the MK1 now cleared already incorporate an APU.BTW,was the APU imported or made incountry?I remember the french being involved...
Interestingly,the Tank-ex does have a APU.

Regarding the cooling /ammo loadout, i concur!
The improved cooling pack apparently limited the turret bustle projection leading to a reduction in the number of "ready rounds" carried.I infer this from the pics too.And then we have CAG.

Another poser...do the rounds stored in the hull also have blow off panels?

From your previous(accurate to boot) data we do know that it was T72 incident which cause the requirement for blow off panels to be added in 1994.Even CAG gives the same.

So the question is that since the ARjun is- in effect the turret anyway-a Leo2A4 clone...its should have had a turret bustle with blow off panels already.So why the "requirement" projected in 1994?Does this mean that even the hull ammo is kept "separated" with its own blast off panels?This is one weakness of the Leo2 series design and it would be worthwhile if the Arjun has done better.

BTW,Paul hasnt come up with the figures yet,but he has remarked that the Arjun turret front may be upto 80cm protection.Thats beyond Leo2A4.With ERA it should go up.

regards,
Nitin

Sanjay-the article's on the way-give me a day or so.Not JDW but some polish news reports.Yes,DRAWA-T won. :)
Raj Malhotra
BRFite
Posts: 997
Joined: 26 Jun 2000 11:31

Re: Understanding INSAS

Post by Raj Malhotra »

I think one of the main features of Arjun was that from on the onset it was designed in many ways to be upgraded. For instance even if ERA protection for top attack is added, it can take a more powerful engine to compensate for the weight. The T-72 has limitations of space and after T-90 avtaar will need some more time for tech to mature and for the engine of 1500hp to be available in smaller size.

Is it possible that Drawa-T may be used for Arjun? Also earlier there were reports that commonality for Arjun may have been one of the requirements for choosing components for upgrade of T-72. There were some reports about Polish Leo+T-72 hybrid. I wonder what FCS was used therein.

Also as aforesaid I also noticed that DRDO brouchure says that 1500hp engine for Arjun is intended. I wonder which engine would be used. Mtu-838 is reportedly too old and not being manufactured. Wartsila has some serious problems in Le clerc. What is left? Mtu again?

I find it slightly disconcerting that there are no reports about the foreign components of Arjun being ordered

Incidentally I have not understood the logic of putting thermal site in the hole in the wall of front turret. This supposed to be heaviest armored region and this only makes it weaker. Why not on top of turret like almost everybody else?

Also on anther note, are there too many diff types of thermal sights being used?

ELOP – T-72 upgrade?

Thales – T-90

Saegem – Arjun

What about commonality?
Sanjay
BRFite
Posts: 1224
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Chaguanas, Trinidad

Re: Understanding INSAS

Post by Sanjay »

Raj, I strongly suspect that there was a lot of French help in the Polish TI system. Thales being the prime suspect ! There is a good deal in what you say regarding commonality. On the other hand, I suspect some diversity in TI system does guard against one company holding you hostage! Back in 1994-95, the French refused to tie up with BEL on thermal imagers. Well, times have changed.
As far as the blow out panels are concerned, I have no idea if they were incorporated. They might have been.
JCage
BRFite
Posts: 1562
Joined: 09 Oct 2000 11:31

Re: Understanding INSAS

Post by JCage »

Raj,

No drawa-t for Arjun.Current one's superb by itself.

The window-on the turret has additional armour modules behind it,so protection isnt sacrificed.

The brochure has a typo when it says 1500 hp.Sure,its being contemplated but the news didnt get to theprinting press so fast. :D

You will never get news of "foreign components" being ordered for an ongoing army project like the Arjun.Somethings arent "leaked" or for that matter dont get the media glare.Dont worry though.The indent was cleared in 2000.Lots of time since then and as the developers told the PAC,once the indent was passed orders would be placed.

Yes,thermal imagers and commonality....for the IA at least..are a dream.

Regards,
Nitin
Locked