Cruise Missile Test in Pakistan: Final Thread

rajpa
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Postby rajpa » 24 Aug 2005 13:05

can capt(r) hali provide names of some institutions that were involved in the production of the prototype (defence, private, public sector) and a small inexhaustive list of components and technologies used in baabeer.
Last edited by rajpa on 24 Aug 2005 14:05, edited 1 time in total.

Vamsee
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Postby Vamsee » 24 Aug 2005 13:07

Hi Daulat,

This cruise missile test indicates that everything in the Chinese arsenal is available for pakis. It is also an indication that Chinese are utterly, absolutely convinced that India would be a major world power. They seem to be more convinced than most of the Indians. Hence they are willing to discard every single international treaty to help pakis and pull down India.

So if the Chinese can fit nuke warhead in this missile then pakis have it

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Postby Manne » 24 Aug 2005 16:55

A minor detail - Hali has refrained from mentioning this disreputable website in his latest article.

:lol:

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Postby Jagan » 24 Aug 2005 18:50

Manne wrote:A minor detail - Hali has refrained from mentioning this disreputable website in his latest article.

:lol:


Another minor detail, refering to Gp Capt Hali as Capt Hali is going to irritate him like hell. He is neither from the Pakarmy nor from the paknavy!!

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Postby Uday » 24 Aug 2005 19:18

Another reasons why USA is looking the other way when pukes have tested a cruise missile.
A) Pakis need something substantial considering the fact that they have been neutered.
B) After 9/11 america will think twice before selling planes to pukes. It will be almost certain that
USA will not deliver the F-16 that it has promised.(Gp. Capt. S.M.Hali are you listening this. your own trained fellas drove planes to 9/11 and do you think US will give you F-16).

C) USA want to maintain strategic balance which it has been doing for so long. Why do you think USA will allow one nation to become so strong so as to dominate one entire region.

D) last of course Musharaff has to be proped up.


why does anyone think USA will not fascilitate tot of cruise missile to pukes. It looks as if the hardware came from chine and software/sensors from USA. Remember in kargil, even those 210mm artillery guns and weapons locating radar caused considerable human damage to us.
we have the strength to defeat there latest acquisition but it does not mean USA will not supply some high tech weapons to pukes.

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Postby Sunil » 24 Aug 2005 19:43

Hi,

I have taken a few hours to see this thread and to think about Gp. Capt. Hali's oped. I have also taken this time to conduct a few offline conversations and I think I want to say the following at this point.

1) Gp. Capt Hali's response though "couched in rhetoric" and celebratory tones about "scaring India" also speaks to the understanding of what happens if Pakistan goes too far in the business of scaremongering. So I think the purpose of the thread has been achieved. I would like to thank Gp. Capt. Hali for having taken the time to read our concerns here and for having formulated a cogent response.

2) In light of the fact that Pakistanis like Gp. Capt. Hali read this forum - it is best if we not make statements or comments that unnecessarily inflame passions. P_Saggu's scenario about a hit on Pakistan's command and control system when taken together with the overt talk of a JDAM from Pakistan creates all sorts of nightmare visions in the minds of the Pakistanis that are reading this thread and that could as Harpal_Bector suggests be counterproductive to GoI's efforts at this time. I agree with Kgoan's point also.

3) I first heard about the JDAM possibility as a teenager and it made a profound impact on my mind. I hope in bringing that up, I have injected a sense of maturity into the debate that some of our forumites have on the issue of Pakistan's nuclear threats. I sense that this may be a bitter pill for some of you to swallow but it is best that it is adminstered here in controlled conditions than by some Pakistani on a Pakistani forum. From the Pakistani perspective however excessive discussion of the JDAM issue leaves them vulnerable to all sorts of attacks. If it becomes common talk that Pakistan is the source of all JDAM activity - then firstly it takes away all deniability and secondly someone else could easily mimic a JDAM attack and Pakistan would face the music. They know about this and so it is not something to remind them about unless one has a very specific reason to do so. Therefore I don't see the point of allowing general discussion on this issue in public as too many random comments would ensue.

continued in the next post.

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Postby Uday » 24 Aug 2005 20:09

Sunil wrote:Hi,



2) In light of the fact that Pakistanis like Gp. Capt. Hali read this forum - it is best if we not make statements or comments that unnecessarily inflame passions. P_Saggu's scenario about a hit on Pakistan's command and control system when taken together with the overt talk of a JDAM from Pakistan creates all sorts of nightmare visions in the minds of the Pakistanis that are reading this thread and that could as Harpal_Bector suggests be counterproductive to GoI's efforts at this time. I agree with Kgoan's point also.

3) I first heard about the JDAM possibility as a teenager and it made a profound impact on my mind. I hope in bringing that up, I have injected a sense of maturity into the debate that some of our forumites have on the issue of Pakistan's nuclear threats. I sense that this may be a bitter pill for some of you to swallow but it is best that it is adminstered here in controlled conditions than by some Pakistani on a Pakistani forum. From the Pakistani perspective however excessive discussion of the JDAM issue leaves them vulnerable to all sorts of attacks. If it becomes common talk that Pakistan is the source of all JDAM activity - then firstly it takes away all deniability and secondly someone else could easily mimic a JDAM attack and Pakistan would face the music. They know about this and so it is not something to remind them about unless one has a very specific reason to do so. Therefore I don't see the point of allowing general discussion on this issue in public as too many random comments would ensue.

continued in the next post.


taking your points 2 and 3 together it is appeasement at its very best. Agreed one does not have to swing to extreme of pendulums, but since when have you started assuming that pukes are exactly peace loving. I too have lived with pakistanis. I do not hate them. My very first encounter with pukes was this: you are a hindu? and when mentioned the fact that at the time was living with muslim friends came even a shocking question: you are staying with muslims?(though the muslim who asked me was a kind man). it is not to inflame passions but it is a reality that pukes have been practising distorted version of Islam. yous "thanks" to S.M.Hali will be construed by many as certainly weak. no need to inflame but no need to bend backwards / forwards .
Last edited by Uday on 24 Aug 2005 20:13, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Sunil » 24 Aug 2005 20:09

continued from above

4) It is best if the Pakistanis also understand the need for restraint in public utterances. If I can be misled - mind you I am a nobody - people far above me can be misled too. The Pakistanis should imagine the consequences of that - esp. since if and when the decision is taken to act against Pakistan - the Pakistanis will not see it coming. The Pakistanis routinely use propaganda to suggest that the Musharraf regime is likely to be toppled by Islamist radicals within the Army. The Americans play along with this because it enables them to stall any Indian attempts to get anything meaningful out of Pakistan. I have lost count of the number of Americans that I have had tell me that India needs to give something to Pakistan (and not the other way around). I think everyone Americans and Pakistanis must understand that it is best if the Pakistanis do not make open ended statements that may rattle people in India. Nobody in India is going to have a lot of time to waste on trying to understanding and read between the lines of rhetoric and an unbearable cost may follow. This kind of behavior on part of Pakistan is very very tiresome.

5) A very important step in this process would be if Pakistan abandons some of its excessively aggressive postures. There are a very limited number of ways in which anyone can read talk about a nuclear tipped cruise missile and a publicly stated first strike doctrine with randomly scattered redlines. If the Pakistanis want to have nuclear tipped cruise missiles as something they crow about - then they should consider moving away from first use. Otherwise all this talk about nuclear tipped cruise missiles should simply go away. No one on earth has them. There is no equivalance between Pakistan's nuclear capable cruise missiles and India's anti-ship Brahmos platforms. Pakistan's unproved claims of the missiles' nuclear capability are simply irresponsible and destablizing. If the idea is to hold out the possibility of another "unannounced test launch" as a threat to coerce India into signing something about the Brahmos then imo that is unrealistic thinking on Pakistan's part.

6) Pakistan cannot wish away its Jihadi and Proliferation past. Everything Pakistan does is held against that backdrop. So when uniformed officers in the Pakistan Army make unattributable statements about things that could have all sorts of nasty implications then there is only one way in which people read that - as statements of aggressive intentions. It is not simply enough for Pakistan to make reassurances to international agencies every now and then. This is a continuing commitment that the Pakistanis have to firm up everytime someone gets scared or hassled by the irresponsible utterances of a fellow in a Pakistani uniform. If Pakistan cannot firm up or reassure people about certain things then people will take the necessary measures they feel are appropriate to defend themselves. With this talk of nuclear tipped cruise missiles in PN hands and Musharraf's continued reliance on projecting a Jihadi threat to his regime as a way of leveraging others - it is difficult to see how any nation in its right mind will agree to letting Pakistan's navy out of port. That is simply too risky.

continued in the next post.

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Postby surinder » 24 Aug 2005 20:24

It is most interesting to read what Gp. Capt. Hali, and others have talked about the CM test. Hali, for instance, talks about how India is going to have to develop anti-CP stuff and divert all the resources from other places. The more I think about it, the more I see that there is something missing. It got triggerred by reading a very simple and sharp post by Raju : Essentially Raju asked what is so difficult to understand about retaliation? Does it require stupendous intelligence to understand it? Does it require uncommon bravery to contemplate this concept? It is an age old principle. You use a weapon, I will retaliate. For Pakistan to talk of a weapon and all the destruction it can bring to India, without even mentioning possible retaliation, is schizophrenic. But this is what we see all the time. Even when threatening nuclear attacks, no one in the media, army, government, NGO's, public, talks of the retaliation that would unsue. How much intelligence or courage is required to contemplate it?

surinder

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Postby Sunil » 24 Aug 2005 20:26

continued from previous post.

7) Sri. Parthasarthy's article has touched upon the role of China in Pakistan development of nuclear weapons and platforms. He has indicated that most of China's aid to Pakistan is motivated by a desire to contain India. It is possible to see China as an enabler of Pakistan's nuclear posturing. As with the Pakistanis, the Chinese too suffer from a lack of clarity in their expressions. A very productive thread will be to discuss China role in the cruise missile test and seek to understand the extent to which China endorses involving Pakistan in its nuclear equations with India. It may also be possible to explore what the consequences of such an association are for Pakistan.

8 ) Lastly on the matter of this thread. I would like to thank all the participants and my fellow admin for the hard work that they put into this thread. I have maintained a very strong policing effort on this thread to keep distracting posts off and to keep pointless rhetoric to a minimum. I regret it if I have hurt the feelings of any posters but those of you whose posts have been edited - may please note that none of you have lost your posting rights. With that I feel the extent of public discussion that can be done on this issue has come to an end. If any of you have any opinions about this please feel free to email me at breadomlette at yahoo.

Note to admins. I am closing the thread at this time. If any of you want to open it feel free. If the thread remains locked for 12 hours I will move it to the strat. topics archive. Once again thanks.


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