Avatar, Durga, Kali and much more

Krishna
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Avatar, Durga, Kali and much more

Postby Krishna » 24 Jun 2001 21:53

<B>Fast forward<P>Defence: India enters the cruise missile race; hyperplane Avatar reaches planning stage</B><P>A very interesting article in the July 1 issue of "The Week". Talks about the AVATAR and the previously unheard of DURGA and other star wars gizmo. I will not spoil the excitement by revealing too much about. Read on ...<BR> <A HREF="http://www.the-week.com/21jul01/events3.htm" TARGET=_blank>www.the-week.com/21jul01/events3.htm</A> <P>Admins: This article talks about whole range of weapon systems other than the Brahmos missile. If you feel that this does not warrant a separate thread please feel free to delete this thread. Thank you. <p>[This message has been edited by krishna_kss (edited 24-06-2001).]

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Re: Avatar, Durga, Kali and much more

Postby Nandai » 24 Jun 2001 23:58

They do a funny comparison about the size of a miniature Avatar - <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>A miniature Avatar, which is also being conceived, would be hardly bigger than a MiG-25 or an F-16. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>The thing is that these to fighters are not anywhere close in size to each other, the Mig is Huge compared to the F-16.<BR> <A HREF="http://www.nasog.net/aircraft/ca/Mikoyan_MIG25_Foxbat.htm" TARGET=_blank>http://www.nasog.net/aircraft/ca/Mikoyan_MIG25_Foxbat.htm</A> <BR> <A HREF="http://www.nasog.net/aircraft/ca/General_Dynamics_F_16_Fighting_Falcon.htm" TARGET=_blank>http://www.nasog.net/aircraft/ca/General_Dynamics_F_16_Fighting_Falcon.htm</A> <P>This is also intriguing - <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>The US is already developing the F-16 into a hypersonic fighter.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Has anybody heard anything about any such development, I havent.<P>------------------<BR>Nandai<P>Since time began,<BR>the dead alone know peace.<BR>Life is like melting snow.

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Re: Avatar, Durga, Kali and much more

Postby JCage » 25 Jun 2001 01:12

The whole darn article is full of contradictions.<P>One of the greatest ones being that of nishant=UAV=cruise missile...doesnt make sense.While a slow moving UAV ,with a small rcs,could theoretically take out targets...it doesnt seem very feasible.It may be technically classed as a "UCAV",but a cruise missile???You have to be joking!. Image<P><BR>Most of the stuff being talked about is entirely at the "i dream stage"..but the chap is describin' them as "right here right now"...lotsa work to be done.<P>And till date,i'd imagined KALI to be an emp hardening device..in other words practical...what the heck does "loitering?" refer to! Image<P><BR><p>[This message has been edited by nitin (edited 24-06-2001).]

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Re: Avatar, Durga, Kali and much more

Postby Harsh » 25 Jun 2001 04:19

Hey now fellas, you gotta give credit where credit is due...<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>Durga</B> or directionally unrestricted ray-gun array<BR>[...]<BR><B>Kali</B> or kinetic attack loitering interceptor<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Those are <I>damn</I> clever acronyms, if I may say so myself Image

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Re: Avatar, Durga, Kali and much more

Postby Raj Malhotra » 25 Jun 2001 19:28

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by nitin:<BR><B>The whole darn article is full of contradictions.<P>One of the greatest ones being that of nishant=UAV=cruise missile...doesnt make sense.While a slow moving UAV ,with a small rcs,could theoretically take out targets...it doesnt seem very feasible.It may be technically classed as a "UCAV",but a cruise missile???You have to be joking!. Image<P><BR>.]</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>something like Harpy perhaps?<P>incidentally i could not spot any specific reference to converting Lakshya to cruise missile though that is what seems a most feasible and probably being pursued project.

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Re: Avatar, Durga, Kali and much more

Postby Rudra » 25 Jun 2001 20:16

to fire a laser from space, they need a huge platform. the YAl-1 is based on a 747 for a<BR>good reason I think.<P>the KALI thing looks more interesting. probably a hi-flying UCAV that lets loose<BR>KE darts to down missiles.<P>the other KALI is acc. to reports being<BR>used to harden many products (like lca)<BR>against EMP.<P>somebody's obviously got the "vision 2100"<BR>bug. Hope the rest are "executing" on<BR>vision 2020 in the meantime Image<BR>

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Re: Avatar, Durga, Kali and much more

Postby George J » 25 Jun 2001 21:28

Ok now this is confusing.<BR>The Acronym KALI according to the earliest reports on this subject stands for:<BR>Kilo Ampere Linear Inductor or Injector.<P>Not whatever loitoring. And its beam devices very much on Terra Firma ..and has been rightly pointed out is a tool for EMP testing.<P>EDIT: I=Injector. <A HREF="http://www.sightings.com/politics4/beamweapon.htm" TARGET=_blank>http://www.sightings.com/politics4/beamweapon.htm</A> <P><p>[This message has been edited by George J (edited 25-06-2001).]

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Re: Avatar, Durga, Kali and much more

Postby Harry » 27 Jun 2001 00:59

Wow,the Agni II's range became 200 km acc. to that article.

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Re: Avatar, Durga, Kali and much more

Postby ramana » 27 Jun 2001 01:15

OK sure it has some errors and typos. But what does it reveal? A full scope program based on space assets. What other country has such a program? Only uncle.<P>Have the geniuses figured that the same acronym could have different connotation based on its field of specialization. So just rememeber while heckling that the reporter did go and find out stuff that is new and hitherto unpublished. Has anyone caught a glimpse of the program based on Mahabharata war narrator? The implications are real time surveillance plans based on space based assets. <P>Just because we dont know does not mean it doesnt exist!<BR>--------------<BR>I read the article again and have the following comments. This is a roadmap to the next gen projects of the IGMP type program. It will be space based and armed with hypersonic weapons.<BR>- The reporter argues that the IGMP program is close to its design phase end that a continuation program is needed. <BR>- Hypersonic research is the field chosen. AVATAR and its mini concept vehicle are one aspect for payload delivery to space or long ranges. The PJ-10 and variants are the tactical versions.<BR>- The bit about the F-16 is not complete. There is a HAW - hypersonic airborne weapon concept being studied for the USAF. So its not all BS.<BR>- Cruise missles are being studied and should expect more unveilings who knows new concepts might turn up. Many commnetators had expected the Lakshya to lead to a C/M program. But the present engine(PTAE-7) is limited.<BR>-The GSLV is a key element in Indian thrust to space. Now makes sense Tipnis claiming aerospace force.<BR>- Key elements are thinking in pro-active mode unlike in the past. COS has ordered a study- DRDO has already started basic research- Technical institutes are ready with basic facilities- Next step is program plan like the IGMP by Kalam and Arunachalam.<BR>Name to watch is this Dr. V. Siddhartha OSD, MOD. In the eighties Santhnam used to write special articles in Intl. journals. No one paid attention to him!<P>Bottomline is dont be facetitous. These are serious folks.<BR><p>[This message has been edited by ramana (edited 26-06-2001).]

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Re: Avatar, Durga, Kali and much more

Postby Nikhil Shah » 27 Jun 2001 01:46

Ramana, this (Durga & Kali) also throws some light on India's acceptance of Bush's NMD.<P>

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Re: Avatar, Durga, Kali and much more

Postby ramana » 27 Jun 2001 01:50

Nikhil from what the article says these were in the pipeline before Bush even thought of the election. Yes it shows that the support for the NMD is based on equal goals and not just toadying as is suggested by the chatteratti in Delhi.

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Re: Avatar, Durga, Kali and much more

Postby James Bund » 27 Jun 2001 02:49

Ramana, I would only be too happy if your optimism were justified. However India has a meagre 1.5 ton to GSTO capability and these projects are extremely ambitious to get off the ground (pun intended).<P>There is no evidence of Indian capability in beam weapons or hypersonic aerobic vehicles except fanciful acronyms.Yes they may have a clandestine program of star wars type technology given the atomics paradigm.<BR>But then ours is a country where the trains don't run on time and 1 in 5 residents go to bed hungry. Is it really credible?<P>I agree that there is something to this report. I believe the GOI is signalling to China and perhaps the US that they have some ambitions of developing something (which will likely meet an ignominous end such has befallen Trishul,Nag and the rest.<P>It is not insignificant that 25 yrs after the first tinkering with rockets GSLV put an embarassingly small payload in the wrong orbit using a borrowed engine.

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Re: Avatar, Durga, Kali and much more

Postby Shashank » 27 Jun 2001 03:09

HaHaHaHaHaHaHa<P>James Bund, too much heartburn is injurious to health. Take care. Image<p>[This message has been edited by Shashank (edited 26-06-2001).]

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Re: Avatar, Durga, Kali and much more

Postby James Bund » 27 Jun 2001 03:12

I am not sure what you mean by that?!?

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Re: Avatar, Durga, Kali and much more

Postby Rudra » 27 Jun 2001 08:30

>>which will likely meet an ignominous end such has befallen Trishul,Nag and the rest.<P>??? James, spill the beans old boy, what<BR>did you learn from ...

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Re: Avatar, Durga, Kali and much more

Postby James Bund » 27 Jun 2001 09:30

Trishul--> so successful that Barak has been bought just to fool the Pakistanis.<P>Nag--> I have been reading the same mm wavelength 3rd generation crap so long I know the news copy by heart.<p>[This message has been edited by James Bund (edited 26-06-2001).]

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Re: Avatar, Durga, Kali and much more

Postby RonyKJ » 27 Jun 2001 10:41

I have to admit that the DRDO has come up with some beautiful names and acronyms. Avatar, Durga and Kali...so Indian and yet so fitting. My advice: File copyrights for the names immediately and then sit tight. Lets first master subsonic combustion before we venture into supersonic combustion. In the meantime do all the theoretical studies you can at low cost at the IIT's, IISc and so on. Let the US prove it first. I don't think we are at the stage where we can afford to put on any airs that we are at the cutting edge of aerospace technology.

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Re: Avatar, Durga, Kali and much more

Postby Philip » 28 Jun 2001 04:37

We've seen the misshapen model of "Avatar"at a previous Air Show and have from time to time been told about Durga,Kali etc.These technologies are a very long way away from being incorporated into the armed forces as weapon systems.At the most,we can say that research is being done on these exotic projects,so as to prevent us from being left behind in the coming decades.<P>The US and other advanced military powers are far ahead in these technologies,with some of them already being tested out in the field.THEL comes to mind,as well as the airborne laser weapon to be mounted on jumbo jets.Our strengths seem to be at the moment in the development of missiles and their related technologies.Our first priority lies in this area.The development and induction of strategic and tactical missiles for all the services,as well as precision guided missiles and bombs,needed both in quality and quantity by our armed forces who have little of these.It is heartening to note though that research on exotic weaponry continues,as without venturing into the realm of fantasy and science fiction,nothing will be gained.

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Re: Avatar, Durga, Kali and much more

Postby shiv » 03 Jul 2001 06:43

This news item fits in here I suppose ..<P>neeraj<BR> New Member <BR> posted 02-07-2001 13:57 <P> <A HREF="http://www.stratmag.com/page02.htm" TARGET=_blank>http://www.stratmag.com/page02.htm</A> <P><BR>200 Km Agni??

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Re: Avatar, Durga, Kali and much more

Postby Rudra » 03 Jul 2001 09:32

>>Trishul--> so successful that Barak has been bought just to fool the Pakistanis<P>I believe it was designed as a missile for <BR>IA & IAF and the anti-missile naval role<BR>came along much later.<P>It does not need to intercept anything <BR>except Mirages to enter into IA/IAF service.<P>There was a report that it would be in <BR>production (with Akash) for IA/IAF end of<BR>the year.<P>Again, like PRC, there are ample supplies of<BR>older SAMs (most of them upgraded) like<BR>SA-6, SA-3, SA-11 etc. and funding priorities<BR>may dictate that only small numbers will be<BR>actually deployed, while development of the<BR>technology continues.<P>If people dont have a problem with this<BR>approach wrt to the PRC, I dont think they<BR>have any right to shout at India, coz our<BR>resources are about 3 times less than PRC<BR>right now.<P>I think I have spoken enough on the topic<BR>today.<BR>

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Re: Avatar, Durga, Kali and much more

Postby bala » 12 Jul 2001 01:15

<A HREF="http://www.rediff.com/news/2001/jul/11space.htm" TARGET=_blank>http://www.rediff.com/news/2001/jul/11space.htm</A> <P>India may now take tourists into space!<P>Indian scientists have designed a reusable space plane, Avatar, which they say can launch satellites at an extremely low cost and also take tourists on a ride into the space. <P>Avatar, which had been under wraps because of its defence potential, was unveiled on Tuesday in the US by retired air commodore, Raghavan Gopalaswami. <P>A pioneer in liquid propulsion technology, Gopalaswami is also the former chairman of the Bharat Dynamics Limited, and the brain behind this low-profile project financed by the Defence Research Development Organisation. <P>The project team includes scientists from Defence Research Development Laboratory, which designed Agni, Prithvi and other missiles, and CIM Technologies, a private company based in Hyderabad. <P>The unique design of Avatar, which can be launched a 100 times and produces its own fuel in flight, has been patented in India, Gopalaswami said before flying off to the US to make a presentation at the global conference on propulsion at Salt Lake City. <P>Applications for registration of the design have been filed in patent offices in the US, Germany, China and Russia, he said.

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Re: Avatar, Durga, Kali and much more

Postby shyamala » 12 Jul 2001 03:43

Image <p>[This message has been edited by shyamala (edited 11-07-2001).]

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Re: Avatar, Durga, Kali and much more

Postby vverma » 12 Jul 2001 05:39

What's the idea releasing it in the US first? Are they trying to get NASA involved? Also, this conceptual design looks eerily too much like the just abandoned X-33. The X-33 was too far ahead of its time. The short comings in the technology resulted in the program being dropped. I don't see how DRDO/ISRO plan to execute this. I would though like to see more details on the propulsion.

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Re: Avatar, Durga, Kali and much more

Postby vverma » 12 Jul 2001 08:31

I believe those two tubular wing roots are infact intakes. The pointy things in the middle of the intakes are most likely to ride the sonic wave a la SR-71. <P>Also, IIRC, the initial articles on avatar listed it as a manned space vehicle with CTOL. Does anybody think this thing can take off conventionally? It definitely doesn't look like a manned space craft.

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Re: Avatar, Durga, Kali and much more

Postby Roop » 12 Jul 2001 09:20

I'm having trouble understanding exactly what this Avatar news item means. Application for a patent does not mean the plane works, or even that a prototype has flown. It simply means that the <B>idea</B> (i.e. the design) is being patented. If this is so, the use of the word "unveiled" is highly premature and misleading.<P>Am I missing something? Does anyone claim that Avatar is actually a working aircraft, or even a prototype?<BR>

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Re: Avatar, Durga, Kali and much more

Postby Sunil » 13 Jul 2001 09:17

okay.. this thread is filling up with `stuff'.<P>> i wish NASA etc.. were so economical.. <P>why? so that they can drive us out of business? <P>> My first post in the defence forums:<BR>Our scientists should stop misleading the public and stop creating unnecessary euphoria.Its not an optimistic or a cheerful post,and I am sorry for that,not the right way to begin,but someone has to say something somewhere.<P>or you can just keep quiet for a change.. but with you that is never a possibility is it? in any case.. the reporter is as much a part of the spin as the scientist is... <P>> avatar, patent, prototype etc... <P>My read on it is that this AVATAR is _not_ currently a project aimed at producing a commercial system. It a project to study emerging trends and advances in material sciences and aeronautics. This will serve as the motivation for several very advanced research projects aimed at studying the behavior at these extreme conditions. The project represents our national commitment to expanding the boundaries of scientific research in india. <P>Now i suppose people are wondering what in the world are we patenting it for?.. well whatever conceptual advances are made there _must_ be patented as in the future IPR issues will be a very big deal so it is very important to get this kind of practice. Also the patent grants us a fair ammount of publicity and enables us to attract talented people. <P>okay that probably doesn't sound very cool, but i assure you that there is much more money to be made this way and for once spare me a brahminical kick about `not making money'... if we can use this project to develop something we can sell and make money.. i am a happier man.. <P>ofcourse heros will soon be telling us how the avatar utilizes integrated ramjets that were developed in 1950's by the americans... etc... and so on.. Image<BR><p>[This message has been edited by sunil sainis (edited 12-07-2001).]

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Re: Avatar, Durga, Kali and much more

Postby shiv » 13 Jul 2001 09:50

Doyle Baretto - I wouldn't read too much into that picture. The picture itself looks totally different from the "mock up" they had at Aero India 1998 (phot on B-R)<P>I think they have a "concept", and not a design - and they have patented the concept as a pre-emptive measure. I really need to dig into my Vayu archives for an article about Hypersonic planes from 3-4 years ago. There were 3 different concepts, all different - and the "Indian" one was of an air breathing plane that scooped oxygen from the atmosphere. Suddenly, and interestingly - we are seeing reports of an american plane that scoops o2 from the atmosphere - and I wonder if ADA or whoever wanted to stake its claim to the concept - hence the big hoohah about "unveiling" in the US and patent applications.<P>Just my guess.

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Re: Avatar, Durga, Kali and much more

Postby agupta » 13 Jul 2001 10:02

Just would like to humbly submit that there might be reason to take this with a healthy dose of realism. And before you launch off into a flagellation of what you consider a defeatist-deshi attitude ... consider these:<P>* This is hardly news worthy. So Cmde. Gopalaswami finally persuaded someone in GoI to pay for his trip to the AIAA meet in Salt Lake City and now this become big news? This concept is not new, it was called HYPERPLANE and the first we heard was in the early 90s when the International Astronautical Congress was held in bangalore, IIRC. I think the first paper was authored by Gollakota and maybe Cmde Gopalaswami was a second author ( I'll have to go back and look in my archives). Then they had asked for a budget of 10,000 crores !! Since then it has been a "paper" project in the minds of a a couple of people - very similar to the design projects graduate students in quality institutions all over the world do - with no focussed effort other than the in-flight liquefication of oxygen system ( hence the term 'aerobic'). <P>* As JP mentioned, we are getting better at Composites ( thanks to the LCA program) but lack experience in xomposites/materials usable in the high thermal loads of hypersonic flight. If all this hoopla makes for better focus on materials development, then AVATAR's purpose would be well served. <P>* If you look at the CAD image released, you;ll see the ramjets/turbo-ramjets near the wing root, rocket nozzles at the base of the conical centerbody AND what seem like scramjet exhausts (rectangular ducts) under the vehicle. I'll wait to confirm this until I get my hands on the paper but this is a lot of hardware to hang without making the payload capacity of this thing = < 0 !<P>To Vverma's comment about the backend being heavy, remember that most of the fuel is stored there, and when it lands, very little will be left.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jay Prakash:<BR><B>FYI<P>A scale model of the avatar engine to extract liquify and to store OXY was successfully conducted a couple of year ago.<P>The next move is on to the structural materials.. and getting there..<P>James Bund.. appreciate the efforts put into by the DRDO with a meagre Rs1000 crore budget ($200 million)...at current levels<P>I wish NASA and the Pentagaon were that economical. They wouldnt be spending $300 billion on defence and $10 billion to develop the space shuttle (in 1980 dollars)<P>CHEER UP<P>Jay Prakash</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>

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Re: Avatar, Durga, Kali and much more

Postby agupta » 13 Jul 2001 10:11

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by shiv:<BR><B><BR>I think they have a "concept", and not a design - and they have patented the concept as a pre-emptive measure. I really need to dig into my Vayu archives for an article about Hypersonic planes from 3-4 years ago. There were 3 different concepts, all different - and the "Indian" one was of an air breathing plane that scooped oxygen from the atmosphere. Suddenly, and interestingly - we are seeing reports of an american plane that scoops o2 from the atmosphere - and I wonder if ADA or whoever wanted to stake its claim to the concept - hence the big hoohah about "unveiling" in the US and patent applications.<P>Just my guess.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P><BR>Shiv: My guess is that all the patents/registration they are talking about relates to the LOX system. Again, the Japanese with their LACE engines had also done xtensive work on air liquefication. <P>As for AVATAR itself, search the web and you will find a 100 such concepts. For a few I am familiar with, look at <A HREF="http://www.ssdl.gatech.edu" TARGET=_blank>http://www.ssdl.gatech.edu</A> <P>For the younger folks, before there was the X-33, there were the NASP(X-30), Hermes, HOPE, SAENGER, HOTOL - in no particular order. IIRC, and this was a long time ago, the Brits did try to develope LoX ( Liquefication of O2) for HOTOL - I don't remember wether DRDO/BDL got to the thing that made the concept work first, what they did different etc., but it seems reasonable to assume that they had something unique if they were going after a patent.<BR><p>[This message has been edited by agupta (edited 12-07-2001).]

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Re: Avatar, Durga, Kali and much more

Postby shiv » 13 Jul 2001 17:57

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Harish_Kumar:<BR><B><BR>DRDO should develop weapons which enable us to fight and win wars,not add to our pride and to compensate our image of a poor country.<P></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Harish Kumar - I presume your post is well intentioned, and not a mindless tut tut I know better message.<P>It is possible that the DRDO or whoever do things for which they already have the means or expertise to develop. Some of the things you ask the DRDO to develop may be less easy than appears on the surface for want of materials, technology ot expertise. Technology is like a long beach. At any given time the waves on one part are washing further inland than another part. <P>Yes, they do have to do things that you ask them to, but that does not mean that they should do nothing else till they meet your idea of what should be done. It is not as though they have an array of ideas and that they can pick any of them up and make it and they are wasting time doing useless things. Arrays of ideas are so easy that even we on B-R have them by the hundreds. The question is whether the technical capability is available to develop it fully and is it cost effective to do it, and will a newfangled idea requiring heavy investment actually work well or would it be neutralised by emerging technologies that others develop/acquire. All difficult questions to answer - and DRDO did not consult you or me before they made the decisions they did.<P>It may be that you are underestimating the complexity and cost while overestimating the applicability of some technologies - but I make this judgement from this post and your question on the aviation questions folder, which I will try and answer within the limits of my knowledge.<P>JMT<P><p>[This message has been edited by shiv (edited 13-07-2001).]

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Re: Avatar, Durga, Kali and much more

Postby Sribabu » 13 Jul 2001 20:31

My 2 bits.<P>The indian defense and/or research establishment does not work to projects which are defined by an end product like NASA/US establishments. While the US develops their technologies by building something tangible (like X-33) and build a whole lot of expereince and technologies which can be used in, at times, unrelated areas, we develop individual technologies seperately, which can lead to a situation where they exist but are not applied, or that is how it looks.<P>As for the DRDO's role in AVTAR, I can see that they can be involved in <BR>1. Composites- They have lots of experience through the Agni related to re-entry technologies in both materials and guidance<BR>2. Scram Jets- They are developing ram jets for the missiles, and these are logically the next step.<P>In the race of technology, if you focus only on what you need today or even tommorrow, you have already lost the race.<P>It is better we import what is necessary for today, start work on tommorrow's requirements and focus on next years' requirements.<P>Sri

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Re: Avatar, Durga, Kali and much more

Postby Philip » 17 Jul 2001 09:18

AGUPTA is spot on ,about the hyperplane's origins and first unveiling of the concept at Bangalore a decade ago.It provoked quite a bit of amusement then from foreign delegates,as by then we hadn't even got a mock up of the LCA ready!Not now,when the world has realised that india's efforts are slowly but surely paying of.Yes,the yanks have tried to steal our idea too,this probably explains why we have unveiled the design at this point of time.I am curious as to what the underbelly of the Avatar is like.We may have a few surprises there.

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Re: Avatar, Durga, Kali and much more

Postby JCage » 17 Jul 2001 21:10

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by telusrinu:<BR><B>The DRDO is a notoriously ill-organised organisation like any other governmental agency. LCA is a creepy design which has never come out and will NEVER come out unless US or russia help us out. Avatar..?? i dont think we have any idea if it will be ever accomplished. It is just to mislead people. We must have more private agencies and good scientists from russia and other countries working hard to first do simpler things like the armored tanks, shoulder fired anti missile tanks than talk of some non-sense which will anyway not materialise at the end. DRDO has never delivered anything on time to the indian army and they always had to depend on foreign nations for its needs. Its a SHAME on DRDO. We must have agencies which WILL DELIVER and not just TALK BIG.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Showed your paki origins mate?Somehow paki are never able to stop a twistin' and a burnin' when it comes to the DRDO/LCA.<BR>We dont need any russians to "help" us out.<BR>BRF has had enough of your nonsense.<BR>Sayonara.<P>Admins:Imposter alert.<BR><p>[This message has been edited by nitin (edited 17-07-2001).]

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Re: Avatar, Durga, Kali and much more

Postby JCage » 18 Jul 2001 00:46

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by telusrinu:<BR><B>hello but please execuse me. I may have not agreed with your point of view but that does not make me any less indian than you are or a pakistani. As a matter of fact i have worked for DRDL (a branck of DRDO) and i know how things go on at DRDO. Nobody works ! more talk less work like any other indian agency.This is a fact whether you like it or not. According to me a TRUE indian will accept the facts and try to rectify the situation. Accepting the reality is the first step to correct ourselves. We must try to improve ourselves and be useful to the nation rather than just be happy with the state of things. WE ARE NOT THE BEST BUT WE WILL BE IF WE WANT TO.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P> Oh dont crap.<BR>You are a "student" in the US and an ex DRDL expert??Am i or anyone else in BRF supposed to believe that?<BR>The LCA is a "creepy" design?What the heck does that mean?I guess you were an aerodynamics and avionics major at DRDL.<BR>Please explain to us bozos at BRF what a "creepy" design refers to?<BR>Or am i supposed to assume that you meant crappy??<BR>You obviously have no clue about what you are talking about.<BR>But of course,sitting in front of a computer monitor gives you every idea of how DRDO and how the LCA IS and should perform.<P>BTW ,just in case you didnt know,the lca is in the process of being test flown.But of course according to YOU:"<B><I>the lca has never come ot and never will</I></B>"<P>MR aerodynamics expert,i do know many people who are working their a$$es off at DRDO to make their projects succeed. I dont need YOU to tell me and whine that <B><I>"no one at DRDO works" "it is indian".</I></B>Boo Hoo.<P><BR>Your attitude and your post is an INSULT to those people and yes,i do take umbrage.<BR>Personally,i couldnt care less if you whined,elsewhere....<BR>And gave reasons for whining too..<P>And before you educate others about poor DRDO take a look at what they HAVE done.Not what you would know.<P>The people who do conceptualise avatar and all are in your view,jacka$$es.Great.<P>We wouldnt even have a missile deterrent in place today but for DRDL,<I><B>"where nobody works".</B></I><P>The bofors runs on indian lubricants.Siachen is supplied with DRDO/CFTRI supplied irradiated food but "<I><B>DRDO never supplies things to the army on time</B></I>".<P>The IAF/IA/IN employ EW eqpt/VLF eqpt developed inhouse at DRDO,but <I><B>"DRDO is a shame"</B></I><P>Give me a break. <P>And yes,before i forget please tell Mr. Saraswat of DRDL that he is to be replaced by russian scientists who work.The same applies to all the other DRDL "non workers" who developed prithvi .<P><p>[This message has been edited by nitin (edited 17-07-2001).]

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Re: Avatar, Durga, Kali and much more

Postby JCage » 18 Jul 2001 02:01

Telusrinu,<P>Nothing personal but,<P><I>>>nitin..you seem to have taken a completely wrong interpretation of what i have said'..</I><P><BR>Err...i repeated what you had said..specifically.Including utter nonsense about the LCA among other things.<BR>Basically ,you shot off a great deal of utter nonsense and expected me/everyone else to buy it.Sorry,i dont.<P><BR><I>>>I dont really care a lot if you agree with me or not but i am sure we are a LOT less efficient that what we can be. </I><P>DRDO CAN and SHOULD improve upon its efficiency.But what it does NOT need is experts declaring it to be a shame and making sweeping,blissfully glib generalizations.<P><I>>>If you are happy so you be, i am surely not and i have every right to express it.</I><P>Hello dude,this is a public forum visited by people who need to know the truth NOT listen to uninformed whining.<BR>There is practically no difference between the nonsense you posted and the poison spewed by rediff,asian age and the like.BRF's raison de etre for existence is to prevent such garbage...and then you come along and repeat the same.<P><I>>>Now please lets stop this personal bashing. If you want to talk about me then you can e-mail me rather than post whatever you feel like.</I><P>Post whatever i feel like??post whatever you felt like is the issue.<BR>You posted absolute rubbish...<B>russian scientists,USA help,LCA will never come out etc</B> without even checking up on the facts as they were.<BR>Boss,dunno how YOU feel,but i personally WILL NOT allow DRDO or any other Indian orgs achievements to be rubbished by know it alls.<BR>Do you know how hard it is to develop anything in our resource starved nation??<BR>Does these peoples achievements mean anything to you?I guess not.<BR>It is easy to talk big.Try doing it.<P>And for someone who claims to have worked at DRDL,you appear to have no idea of DRDL's work and contribution towards indian security.<P>So,please,please,next time before you post such total nonsense,THINK!!<P>Cheers,<BR>nitin<BR><p>[This message has been edited by nitin (edited 17-07-2001).]

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Re: Avatar, Durga, Kali and much more

Postby Sunil » 18 Jul 2001 05:31

Telusrinu,<P>Read the forum guidelines and then read some of the BRM articles on various DRDO projects.. if that doesn't change your style and opinions.. at the very least get a PRC passport. <BR><p>[This message has been edited by sunil sainis (edited 17-07-2001).]

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Re: Avatar, Durga, Kali and much more

Postby Aniruddha N » 18 Jul 2001 06:39

Telesrinu,<P>Go to CMF or Pakdef, your rantings will be more welcome there.<P>If you have a point to make, do it in a thought out manner not as a tirade.<P>If you are an Indian, you must be one of those breast-beating "We Indians are so bad" types.<P>What kind of Indian name is Telesrinu anyway?<P>

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Re: Avatar, Durga, Kali and much more

Postby abhay » 18 Jul 2001 06:50

Telusrinu<BR>BR is a forum of the informed. Before you post, check the facts. Don't make dumb statements for the sake of it. You are free to have your opinion, but don't twist facts-"LCA is a creepy design which has never come out and will NEVER come out".......hello knock knock....where did u get that!!!!<P>Join the Pakdef forum.....a clan of illinformed, ignorant, dumb nitwits. Your posts will get five star ratings there.<P> AND DON'T COME BACK!!!<P><p>[This message has been edited by abhay (edited 17-07-2001).]

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Re: Avatar, Durga, Kali and much more

Postby agupta » 18 Jul 2001 08:47

Can you guys knock it off, PLEASE !<P>I think DRDO and its people are quite capable of speaking through their actions (or inactions, depending on your point of view). Do we really need a bunch of defenders-of-the-faith descending on one non-conformist who made a couple of boo-boos - and a typo - to slap him around !! <P>Geez. The poor guy even tried to get the topic back on track... <P>As for parsing what he said, how about attempting to defy the statement on DRDO' s performance "on time" ... any of your examples were done on time / on schedule ? Sure, projects take time... and there are overruns, but when an org. makes a habit of overpromising and underdelivering to a mostly captive customer, bitterness does set in. And the efforts of the few sincere get washed away. <P><BR>Heard of "familiarity breeds contempt" ? For most people who know DRDO closely, its a tale of so many good people lost amongst a sea of mediocrity. <BR>--------------<P>For all the hoopla, my searches on the patent servers have yet to bring up one DRDO patent application on the LoX / HYPERPLANE / AVATAAR thing ! I would love to be proven wrong - as I had believed that the LoX system was "real" and not on paper. Very dissappointing. And if you look carefully, the news reports talk of scientists looking at patenting.. not actually applying for one - seems like a throwaway line to impress a less-than-well-informed journalist. <P><BR>

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Re: Avatar, Durga, Kali and much more

Postby JCage » 18 Jul 2001 11:29

Agupta,<BR>Just go through what he said again.DRDO does speak through its actions.I for one have noted it.Where do you think the agni came from??<P>What we dont need is drivel from those who dont even check up facts before posting.<BR>That LCA has never come out...russian,us scientists help....do you think these were typos???An entire sentence,a bunch of statements a typo???<P>Basically,the chap has just read some "new articles" and gone off whining.<BR>Heck,as of today,i am Krishnadas Nair's boss and HAL sucks. Believe me,i am.<P>His "statements" are nothing but a further slap in the face for the countless chaps who are STILL working day in and day out for success...call them patriots or fools whatever.<P>And yes,there is a lot DRDO has delivered ON time.The IAF extensively utilises DRDO eqpt which is not publicised and it was delivered on time.DRDO has delivered on time in many cases.It is the big ticket projects which have been hung up and to blame DRDO alone is pretty facile.They have attempted to do so in a country which likes even basic infrastructure in several critical tech areas.<P>The IN and DRDO have a history of development and productionising the developed items on time.<P>Know why the LCA is chugging along faster?'coz here are finally a dozen or so avionics firms in bangalore who are willing to lend a helping hand.Otherwise it was ADA/HAL and DRDO all the way,developing everything from scratch.<P>And that "sea of mediocrity" part & "sincere people get drowned" does not justify stupid indictments of ALL in DRDO.<P>The LCA team has more specialists in it than many recent indian projects.These chaps(AND I know this for a fact) have refused offers from MNC's,not emigrated and have stuck on ..For what??To have people spew garbage in rediff,asian age AND brf??<BR>And you expect it to be taken lightly??<P>Or is it that nadkarni,Iype's articles are to be laughed at only when the lca undergoes another block of tests?<P>If he does want to whine,then may i suggest do it elsewhere.<P>Regards,<BR>nitin


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