LCA ground run & some other questions

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Re: LCA ground run & some other questions

Postby bobj » 04 Jan 2001 04:23

Why has 2 LCA related threads been closed atleast why the latest one where test tommorrow morning was announced? This is the biggest moment in the history of India and we are closing threads on all latest news about it. Well here is the link I wanted to discuss about:<BR> <A HREF="http://www.deccanherald.com/deccanherald/jan04/ilca.htm" TARGET=_blank>http://www.deccanherald.com/deccanherald/jan04/ilca.htm</A> <P><BR><I>The LCA powered by General Electric F404-GE-F2J3 engines, will be India's second indigenous jet fighter design, after HF-24 Marut in 1950s, with delta wing, a single vertical fin, no tailplanes or foreplanes, and made of aluminium-lithium alloys, carbon-fibre composites, and titanium, boasts of more than 500 LRUs (line replaceable units) to meet severe operational conditions to be encountered, is first of <B>fourth-generation multi-role fighter</B> developed from scratch in Asia. <BR></I><P>Is LCA really a fourth generation aircraft and if so, what makes it a 4th gen. aircraft?<BR>

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Re: LCA ground run & some other questions

Postby Sunil » 04 Jan 2001 04:32

In the test flight are they going to pull the wheels up? <BR>i don't think they should do that.. it wasn't done for most of the first flights in other countries. <P>what is the proposed flight path? are they going to turn it around and fly back to Yelhanka? or are they going to land at another airstrip. <P>It is good to see that AM Tipnis is going to fly with it. <P>incidently who is the Chief Test Pilot? <BR>

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Re: LCA ground run & some other questions

Postby SaurabhG » 04 Jan 2001 04:54

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by sunil sainis:<BR><B>incidently who is the Chief Test Pilot? </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Looks like you didnt read the article completely.<BR> HAL Chief Test Pilot is Rakesh Sharma<BR>but this babe is going to be flown by<BR> Wg Cdr R Kothiyal

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Re: LCA ground run & some other questions

Postby SaurabhG » 04 Jan 2001 05:12

Good Point My dear Sam Malone. Shabaash Mere Laal!!<BR>

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Re: LCA ground run & some other questions

Postby Arun_S » 04 Jan 2001 05:33

<I>>>what is the proposed flight path? are they going to turn it around and fly back to Yelhanka? or are they going to land at another airstrip. </I><P>I am certain of the following:<BR>1. The plane will land back on the same runway.<BR>2. The first flight would start with flying at around 15000 ft (to recover from any flight contingency), and then take the LCA through paces:<BR>....A) Extend the flap and go through few mock landing on a virtual runway at altitude of 10,000 feet.<BR>....B) Go through low stress turns (IMHO no more then ~2 G) and dives.<BR>....C) go through speed between "Stall +50Kt" and 400 Kt.<BR>....D) engine power upto 85%<P>Cheers ...<p>[This message has been edited by Arun_S (edited 03-01-2001).]

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Re: LCA ground run & some other questions

Postby Bishwa » 04 Jan 2001 05:45

Arun,<BR> All this in a 15-30 minute flight ?!!

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Re: LCA ground run & some other questions

Postby Arun_S » 04 Jan 2001 06:11

<I>>>All this in a 15-30 minute flight ?</I><P>Belive me 15 minute is lot of time in flight. One flight manouver test out more then one of the test parameters in one go. I am very sure the test flight plan is well though off and would be bookish-ly orchestrated, much like pilots preparing for aerobatics. In fact 30 minutes is too much time, more likely in 20 minutes.<P>If the test flight does not pull up the wheel (which is very likely), then the max speed will swing to ~250 Kt and not 400 Kt.<P>BTW, the idea of doing secret test flights before hand is hogwash (sorry for being so rude), as if it can be done secretly in ones private backyard (or hanger), or some highly classifies and expansive military only facility like US.Andrew Airbase in sourthern Californian desert ! Not to mention R&D logistic support, All for what motive and expense ? to keep the public from knowing the first flight ?<P>Any flight off Yalahanka can't be kept secret at all, because the flying plane tend be seen far and wide, by civilians and reportes, even if magically all defence/ADA/DRDO personell can keep such happy secret to themselves.<p>[This message has been edited by Arun_S (edited 03-01-2001).]

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Re: LCA ground run & some other questions

Postby Bishwa » 04 Jan 2001 06:14

How much time will it take to climbup and decend to/from 15000 feet?

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Re: LCA ground run & some other questions

Postby rama » 04 Jan 2001 07:28

Many posts ago people have quoted reliable sources that said that the nosewheel of the LCA did get airborne and so to that extent secret unpublicised tests have already taken place under the heading of high speed taxi trials. And we have been hearing about taxi trials for over a year now.<P>More serious doubts, IMHO, have to do with going from TD-1 to PV-1 and beyond. Many of the components of the TD-1 were sourced from the US. The engines we know about (and we still don't quite know about Kaveri's status), but there were/are also other stuff like the electromechanical actuators (Moog ?) and such mundane hardware. This will of course get replaced in the PV-1, but that part of the program will hinge on the longest lead time. <P>Let's not underestimate this, e.g. the ALH changed from Turbomeca to LHTEC back to Turbomeca for the engines and the serial production has been held back forever as a consequence. ALH first flight was a long long time ago - 1992 IIRC! And ALH is not quite as complex as the LCA.<P>But in the meanwhile let's await the first flight and celeberate..

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Re: LCA ground run & some other questions

Postby bobj » 04 Jan 2001 07:29

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sam Malone:<BR><B>IMHO, the first(second, third...) test flight has already been done. This is going to be the first flight in public. <BR>There is no way DRDO/HAL/ADA is going to risk embarassment in public. What if the flight failed ? <BR>Look, if I am going to demo my software product to the public, I am going to test run the product 100 times in private, before I even declare the product ready to be tested in public !!!</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Well if your theory is anything to go by, than the test-flight planned for Thursday is going to be a sure success. <P>I say then what stops ADA or DRDO from announcing that they have already done their own test flights the announced test-flight is mainly for the public?<BR>

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Re: LCA ground run & some other questions

Postby Joeqp » 04 Jan 2001 07:30

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by bobj:<BR>Why has 2 LCA related threads been closed atleast why the latest one where test tommorrow morning was announced? This is the biggest moment in the history of India and we are closing threads on all latest news about it. Well here is the link I wanted to discuss about:<BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I think the "tomorrow" refers to <B>Friday</B> morning. From the article, looks like the flight will be at around 10:00AM.<P>Any BR readers from the Bangalore area with some good cameras? Please snap away and post the photos.. Image<P>If the flight happens, it will be a [color=#FF0000]red letter</FONT> day for India!<BR>

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Re: LCA ground run & some other questions

Postby jayam » 04 Jan 2001 09:21

Another news on the impending first flight of LCA...<P>India's own Light Combat Aircraft to test fly Thursday<BR> <A HREF="http://news.indya.com/apps/gx.cgi/ips?pagename=bluesky/news/articlenewr&aid=ZZZNCJZYIHC&cid=DEVON1PW2CC" TARGET=_blank>http://news.indya.com/apps/gx.cgi/ips?pagename=bluesky/news/articlenewr&aid=ZZZNCJZYIHC&cid=DEVON1PW2CC</A>

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Re: LCA ground run & some other questions

Postby Michael » 04 Jan 2001 10:29

In the Deccan Herald is said Tipnis is going to pilot a Mirage-2000 and fly along with the LCA. <P>You know, if the LCA crashes or something, I sure hope this doesn't kill the project like it did the Hs.748 AWACS. One crash should never be allowed to derail and entire program. It's really rediculous that they abandoned the Hs.748 AWACS over that one crash. I can't think of one single Western fighter that was developed without at least one of the prototypes crashing and/or killing at least one test pilot (except perhaps the F-22 program). It happens even to the best of them. I hope they keep that in mind should something go wrong tomorrow or in the months ahead.

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Re: LCA ground run & some other questions

Postby Muppalla » 04 Jan 2001 10:51

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Manavendra:<BR><B> I think the "tomorrow" refers to Friday morning. From the article, looks like the flight will be at around 10:00AM.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>It is not Friday but it is Thursday that means in about 15minutes time from now. Let's wish everything goes right.

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Re: LCA ground run & some other questions

Postby SaurabhG » 04 Jan 2001 11:17

The Flight preparations must have already been completed as per the schedule. And if the aircraft was going to be flown around 10:00am then it must already be in air now.<P>Anybody in Banglore area? Howz the weather down there..<BR>

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Re: LCA ground run & some other questions

Postby makkar » 04 Jan 2001 11:43

It is 11:10 PM CST. Is there any one awake in India. Did it fly or what. I have been shifting back and forth between BR and NDTVNEWS. All they have is old news at 10:30AM IST. Nothing for LCA.<P>Jai Bharat.

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Re: LCA ground run & some other questions

Postby jayam » 04 Jan 2001 11:49

Shiv where are you? Can you tell us about the weather out there?

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Re: LCA ground run & some other questions

Postby Sasi » 04 Jan 2001 11:53

The weather in <A HREF="http://weather.yahoo.com/forecast/Bangalore_IN_c.html"><B>Bangalore</B></A> seems to be partially clody. But I don't know if it's cloudy enough to postpone the maiden flight of LCA<p>[This message has been edited by Sasi (edited 04-01-2001).]

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Re: LCA ground run & some other questions

Postby Arun_S » 04 Jan 2001 11:53

<I>>> You know, if the LCA crashes or something, I sure hope this doesn't kill the project like it did the Hs.748 AWACS. One crash should never be allowed to derail and entire program. It's really rediculous that they abandoned the Hs.748 AWACS over that one crash..</I><P>The AWACS was carrying the team of principal RADAR scientists/engineers. Their death killed the critical knowhow & technical leadership developed at great expense of talent, money and time. The LCA will on the other hand carry a test pilot and not the system developers. <P><B>One who believes realizes the belief. One who doubts get the mirage of illusion. I believe LCA and the team which built it</B>.<P>Cheers ...<BR><p>[This message has been edited by Arun_S (edited 04-01-2001).]

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Re: LCA ground run & some other questions

Postby makkar » 04 Jan 2001 11:53

I do not believe Shiv has a Lap Top with wireless link to Internet, that is if he is actually gone to take some pictures. We need to find someone with a TV set in India.<P>Jai Bharat

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Re: LCA ground run & some other questions

Postby jayam » 04 Jan 2001 11:55

Guys:<P>Vishnu Som has reported that LCA has flown. 20 Mins first flight. If you guys are reloading this page, please go to the forum page and read his posting.

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Re: LCA ground run & some other questions

Postby makkar » 04 Jan 2001 11:57

Just posted by Vishnu Som on another thread.<BR>Flight took place and successful.<P>Jai Bharat.

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Re: LCA ground run & some other questions

Postby Saurabh » 04 Jan 2001 12:06

Yipee Image Image<P>Now who had that cooling champagne for the test flight? Image<BR><P>------------------<BR>Adios<P>Saurabh

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Re: LCA ground run & some other questions

Postby Roop » 04 Jan 2001 13:01

<I><< Who had that cooling champagne... ? >></I><P>That was me, Saurabh. And you can be sure I'm going to open it tomorrow evening.<P>Folks, this is fantastic news!<BR>

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Re: LCA ground run & some other questions

Postby Bishwa » 04 Jan 2001 21:19

Arun,<BR> You were right.<P> The LCA flew to 3500 M and did a simulated landing at that altitude. Even the speed you predicted was correct.<P>From the TOI<P> Katyal took off for the maiden flight at 10.20 a.m., climbed<BR> to 3,500 meters and flew at 400 kmph as he put the LCA<BR> through its paces in the air before landing 20 minutes later.<BR> Katyal, a veteran flyer of the IAF, was chosen from<BR> among a panel of crack fighter pilots. He normally flies the<BR> Mirage 2000 fighter-bomber.<P> Before touching down, he performed a simulated landing in<BR> the air to check out the instrument systems of the LCA,<BR> officials who witnessed the flight said. <BR><p>[This message has been edited by bishwa (edited 04-01-2001).]

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Re: LCA ground run & some other questions

Postby Arun_S » 04 Jan 2001 22:05

I am humbled. <BR>Just some intelligent projections. Image <P>Cheers ...<BR><p>[This message has been edited by Arun_S (edited 04-01-2001).]

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Re: LCA ground run & some other questions

Postby Austin » 05 Jan 2001 01:16

Arun , Nice and Very Informative Post . After a Long time came across some Sane & Valid discussion on LCA, Now That it has been flown I wanna ask you some question a few might be silly but<BR>To Start with:<BR> On <B>Kaveri:</B><BR>a)Kaveri uses “Single Crystal Turbine Blade” some tech Jargon what does it actually means in Plane English.<BR>b)It is a Flat Rated Engine ,Does that it means it give you a Constant Thrust throughout.<BR>c)Kaveri has a Thrust to Weight ratio of Roughly around 7-7.5:1 and AL-31F around 8-8.5:1and if one goes to the Raptor it is around 16:1 . How does a higher T/W ratio affect the aircraft performance . Raptor can Super-Cruise with its engine can the same be achieved with Kaveri or at least it advanced version, A thrust to weight ratio of more than 7:1 if achieved is considered quite by western standard.<BR>d)The Information I have on Kaveri is that the Final Production version will have or is designed to have a Thrust of around 90kn (20,000lb) of thrust and not 80kn as being said or being developed initially , It will be in the same class of M88-3 being developed for the production version of Rafale and Both Engine are Roughly of the same class and Technology <P> On <B>Flight Control System:</B><BR> a ) LCA will have Quadruplex FBW control system so does the EFA and Raptor has.But Rafale & Grippen IIRC does have a Triplex FBW system .What is the difference between Quadruplex and a Triplex FBW control system.<BR>b)The FBW S/W code has been written in something called ADA language what is it ??? Is it possible to write the same code in some other language say like C/C++.<BR>c)The LCA also has a system/Program something called as “Take U Home” heard that even Nishant has it and the SU-30MKI will have it How Does this Take U Home actually works<BR>d)Last one Will it be possible to Fly the LCA without a Tail(Tailless Aircraft) using a Thrust Vectoring Engine as is being proposed by ADA for Future version.IIRC this was also proposed for some advanced fighter of US JSF (cant remember its name but was a Lockheed proposal) but was finally abondonded since the tech was very complex and the aircraft become very unstable(consequently very agile) and required a very sophisticated computer to fly it.<P>Originally Quoted By Arun:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>I do not know for sure if the RADAR tech will come with deep licence. Can someone confirm/deny that ?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>.<P>Yes Arun we are indeed getting the Tech Transfer for the Phazotron Zhuk-PH Radar and also for the rear ward facing Radar, Will be useful in the future to develop a Active Phased Array Radar for the LCA . As for Raj querry wheather the Russians are lagging behind in Radar Technology , That not entirely True where the Russian are really lagging is the Processing Capability ie the ability to process raw data & filter it(clutter etc) and display a good overall result that’s the reason you find that the older version of Su-27 able to detect target at long ranges much longer than Western counterpart but they were not able to Track many Targets and could Lock & Fire only at single targets , But this has been over come to a great extent the Zhuk-PH can Track 24 targets and Fire at 6-8 of them Simultaneously if ant thing else the Russian are master of Radar Tech they were the first one to deploy a passive PAR on an a/c ie Mig-31 .<P>Arun could you Please give me your new E-mail Id , Nandai if you are still following this Thread Please give me your Id too.<BR>

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Re: LCA ground run & some other questions

Postby bobj » 05 Jan 2001 01:32

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Austin:<BR>c)Kaveri has a Thrust to Weight ratio of Roughly around 7-7.5:1 and AL-31F around 8-8.5:1and if one goes to the Raptor it is around 16:1 . How does a higher T/W ratio affect the aircraft performance . Raptor can Super-Cruise with its engine can the same be achieved with Kaveri or at least it advanced version, A thrust to weight ratio of more than 7:1 if achieved is considered quite by western standard.<BR>[/B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Would a higher thrust to weight ratio be really neccessary given that LCA as it is, is considered the world's most lightest and smallest aircraft. So what would be the practical advantages for a higher thrust to weight ratio? I guess there would be advantages for MCA but I believe that DRDO should get the Kaveri going for the minimum requirements of LCA, and thereafter work on improvements. We have to get this bird for the IAF ASAP. No real time left for enhancements right now, unless Kaveri is ready the only thing left to work on is enhancements.

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Re: LCA ground run & some other questions

Postby JCage » 05 Jan 2001 01:52

Austin,<BR>Are you sure that we are going in for the Zhuk-27 Phased array radar?I thought we were acquiring the NIIR NO11m radar.I had started a thraed on this sometime back,but it died a graceful death.<BR>Was it in Vayu or some mag?<BR>BTW,BR states it to be the no11m...other sites claim the zhuk.<BR>As far as russian radar tech is concerned,the one area where they suck is dsp and applications to computing....even the processor unit for the Kopyo was provided by thomson-csf.

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Re: LCA ground run & some other questions

Postby S Bajwa » 05 Jan 2001 01:56

<B>called ADA language what </B><P>I remember discussing about ADA five years ago with my peers in college. I believe ADA is language that uses Parallel processors and is much more suited for such applications as FBW. C/C++ is off course not in the same league. <P>Here is some information about how ADA was developed.<P>The Contest<BR>In the 1960s and 1970s, the United States Department of Defense was using more than 2,000 languages for its mission-critical programming. Most of these were languages that were developed for one specific job. Finally, in 1975, the DoD formed the U.S. Department of Defense High-Order Language Working Group (HOLWG) to find a solution to what was often called the "software crisis." <P>What the HOLWG group members decided was that they needed to create a language that they could use for just about anything, whether it be systems programming, artificial intelligence, and, most important of all, real-time programming and embedded systems. Real-time programs are the programs used for controlling such things as traffic lights, guided missiles, and bar-code scanners. Embedded systems are the small computers that are built into most modern cars, airplanes, and stereos. <P>Rather than create this new language themselves, they decided to hold a contest. Several teams joined, each represented by a color. Coincidentally, all of the teams created Pascal-based languages. In the end, the winner was the green team -- CII Honeywell-Bull in France. Eventually, the language was christened "Ada," in honor of Lady Ada Lovelace, daughter of famed poet Lord Byron and assistant to mathematician Charles Babbage, who invented the Analytical Machine. Lady Ada is often considered to be the world's first programmer. <P>In 1979, the DoD created its first draft documentation on Ada, and the language was first standardized in 1983. Now named "Ada 83", this standard was originally controlled entirely by the DoD, and nobody outside the DoD could create any Ada compiler without the authorization of the Defense Department. <P>All that changed in 1987, however, when the DoD released Ada to the public and the language was made an international standard by the International Standards Organization (ISO). By 1990, over 200 validated Ada compilers had been produced, and in 1995 a new standard, called Ada 95, was announced. Ada 95 is object-oriented, and offers interfaces to the languages C, FORTRAN and COBOL. <P>Sandeep<p>[This message has been edited by sbajwa (edited 04-01-2001).]

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Re: LCA ground run & some other questions

Postby Arun_S » 05 Jan 2001 04:00

Thanks you all for your encouraging kind words, but I am getting rusty every day on the defence state of the art. <P>Wow, so many question. Since I also have to work for a living, I will try easy ones first, & rest of them later.<P><I>>>Kaveri uses “Single Crystal Turbine Blade” </I><BR>Turbine blades operate under the most stressful condition and liable to catastophic faiulre. The stress is due to many fcators:<BR>1. Severe centrifugal force due to rotation<BR>2. High force generated to interact with the air.<BR>3. Very high operating temprature at compressor side and worse on the exhaust turbine side.<P>The blade failure propogate along crystel boundry in the metal (recall your Material Science classes), thus limiting the strenght of the material. <P>So to solve the problem just grow single crystel alloy metal & machine a blade out of it. Which is easier said then done. Is a very specialized Hi-Tech manufacuring stuff.<P><I>>> Flat Rated Engine </I> <BR>My half baked infor is not worth sharing. I would myself like to know more of it.<P><I>>> Thrust to weight ratio is an important limiting factor to all things moving. More so airplanes & fighters.<P>T/W ratio determines aircrafts design for overall size, payload, manoverability & speed. Mainly it determines how much the dead weight of the engine w.r.t. overall weight, and it allow you to determine the engine scaleup (multi-engine) or scale down <BR>to fulfill the thrust requirement for air drag (wing & fuselage & payload off hardpoints, overall weight) and the speed and wing lift requirements.<P>Higher is the DRY T/W ratio more is the cruise speed of the airplane, since afetrburner can ony be used sparingly.<P>[i]>>What is the difference between Quadruplex and a Triplex FBW control system </I><P>Flight control is a critical system, thus must be robustly protected against failure using redundency. Minimum 3 systems are required to impliment robust fault detection and fault free operation for single point of failure. In a way the 3 computers-sensor system work in parallel and compare notes on all decision results by voting. The unit which is in disagreement is voted out of operation. <P>Quad system gives additional robustness, beyond single point of failure. Start with 3 system if it fails down it and bring in th esapre , if another goes down then, only on estays on elin ein self check mode, if it setects failure (as part od regular integrity checks), then the other comesup. There is a short period during changeover during which the system is not under control.<P><I>>>ADA language </I><BR>Is a programming language specified & developed by US DOD to reduce the cost of:<BR>1. multi-vendor S/W programming <BR>2. multi-vendor S/W integration and testing cost<BR>3. multi-vendor S/W maint cost.<P>It has the language constructs to provide <BR>1. robustness (strong type-casting), <BR>2.implimentation isolation (private method code) for secracy, <BR>3. predictable behaviour( IPC <Inter Process Communication> synchornization, controlled pointers), <BR>4.Necessary RealTime features.<P>IIRC The name "ADA" comes from the daughter of a 19th century french mathmatician.<P>I once studied ADA as part of Engineering.<P>One never puts C++ code on a airplane due to its prone-ness to improper behavior on large complex systems.<P><I>>>Take home </I><BR>Any restaraunt can answer that Image Just kidding.<P>Now this is my guess, when a pilot is injured in sticky situation the "take U home" will get the plane home via programmed legpoint with minimum pilot work load. I belive if the home runway has ALS (Automatic landing system) it could even land the plane. Only a fully integrated FBW system can do this.<P><I>>>Last one: Will it be possible to Fly the LCA without a Tail(Tailless Aircraft) using a Thrust Vectoring Engine as is being proposed by ADA for Future version </I><P>Yes. <BR>Though one would walk (to know the flight control regiem of the airplane)before running.<BR>Also one would do that reliably on a twin engine plane, to make sure the plane is surviveable in case of engine failure and inspite of crosswind or assymetric wing load or wing damage. So IMHO MCA is the right choice. LCA is not.<P>Cheers ...<BR><p>[This message has been edited by Arun_S (edited 04-01-2001).]

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Re: LCA ground run & some other questions

Postby Arun_S » 05 Jan 2001 04:58

Some questions I need help with:<P>1. What is the flight endurance of LCA on internal fuel ? <BR>{ Does anyone have fuel flow data for F404 ?}<P>2. What is the designed Ferry Range of the LCA ? On internal and external fuel ? I know it depends on payload confign and flight profile. Number for just any confign would still be useful.<P><BR>

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Re: LCA ground run & some other questions

Postby rama » 05 Jan 2001 05:55

Arun, <P> Seek and ye shall find! We can do better than find the SFC for the F404. How about the SFC for the Kaveri! At:<BR> <A HREF="http://www.drdo.org/pub/aug2000/Kaveri.htm" TARGET=_blank>http://www.drdo.org/pub/aug2000/Kaveri.htm</A> <P>The other bit of info - which I have seen elsewhere - is the internal fuel capacity of the LCA. Add a couple of suitable drop tanks and we know how much fuel the LCA carries.<P>BTW the Kaveri article above is the most detailed description of the GTX-35 that I have seen. It is greek to a EE such as myself, but still it seems to have a lot of data!

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Re: LCA ground run & some other questions

Postby Saurabh » 05 Jan 2001 10:27

Rama,<BR>That 81KN thrust betters the SNECMA on the Rafale Image considered to be a much better engine <A HREF="http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/rafale/index.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/rafale/index.html</A> <P>------------------<BR>Adios<P>Saurabh

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Re: LCA ground run & some other questions

Postby Austin » 05 Jan 2001 11:36

Thank you all for taking the trouble of answering my question seems I have got more than satisfactory reply to all of them ,Now I will try to answer querry put fwd by some members:<P>Qriginally Quoted By Nitin:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>Are you sure that we are going in for the Zhuk-27 Phased array radar?I thought we were acquiring the NIIR NO11m radar.I had started a thraed on this sometime back,but it died a graceful death.<BR>Was it in Vayu or some mag?<BR>BTW,BR states it to be the no11m...other sites claim the zhuk.<BR>As far as russian radar tech is concerned,the one area where they suck is dsp and applications to computing....even the processor unit for the Kopyo was provided by thomson-csf.[/b<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Nitin the data I have , IMO quite reliable too, N011M is a Multi role Pulse Doppler Radar(I/J) band ,but its Antenna is of the Planar Type and not a Phased Array Antenna, I would hate to see the Su-30MKI without a PAR , The information I came across and from a reputed Mag was that the Indians have funded the development of Zhuk-PH an Improved version of Zhuk for the Su Program, as for capabilities of this Radar Goes it can Track 24 targets and Engage 6-8 of them among other things in Air to surface mode it can do/operate in Real beam Ground mapping ,DBS(Doppler Beam Sharpning), SAR Modes, Enlargement, Freeze,MTI ,Moving target Tracking ,& Terrain avoidence and In Air to Air modes its capability includes ,Target Detection and Velocity measurment, Vertical & HUD search,Wide Angle Boresight, Raid Assessment maximum range is 245Km in velocity mode and 183Km in range modes operating in I/J band , So Nitin IMHO I suppose Zhuk-PH is most probably the Radar which is going to be on the Su-30MKI rather than N011M.<P>That’s Ok Nitin there are many thread floating on BRF which does not gets the desired attention as it should be getting and we tend to waste Band Width Discussing what is Just mere Hear & Say , But I did read the Topic On Radar it was very informative ,so I saved in on my HD for future reference <P>Originally Quoted By Arun<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>[b]Flat Rated Engine <BR>My half baked infor is not worth sharing. I would myself like to know more of it.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>.<BR> Although my info on Flat Rated Engine is also half baked but being a Shameless Person Image Image I don’t mind sharing with members:<P>Ok as I have said that Flat Rated Engine means able to generate a constant thrust in every possible Climatic condition ie Hot & High Condition, It has been the experience of IAF that western Aircraft Particular the Jaguar and I suppose even Mirage to some extent and some old Mig that under exteremely High Temperatute and Ambient condition & Extreme high altitude the Engine did not give the desired amount of thrust even while operating in Full After Burner mode ,In fact in case of aircraft like the Jag the derating was as much as 30-20% or It used to operate or give Just 80-75 % of desired thrust and hence used to effect the performance of A/C at High Temp & High Altitudes, Hence GTRE has designed Kaveri as a Flat Rated Engine which can give a Constant Thrust in conditions mentioned above specifically suitated for Hot & High. condition of Indian Environment. Knowledgeble Person Please correct me If I am Wrong. <BR>Arun , As part of Future Upgrades of LCA the ADA is proposing to make LCA Tailess and use Thrust Vectoring Engine to make it more Agaile and more Stealthy, The Sketchy Info available on MCA is that it is Going to be Tailess Design Let us See wheather we Indians Suceed where the Americans found to hot to Handle Image<P>PS :Sorry for diverting from the Topic But I have a more detailed Info on The Sea Dragon Config to be part of the Tu-142 upgrade , I did sent it to every person whose mail Id I had But anyone interested in getting this Info Please give me your mail Id or Just mail me at <B> austin_joseph@usa.net</B> <BR><p>[This message has been edited by Austin (edited 05-01-2001).]

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Re: LCA ground run & some other questions

Postby member_2528 » 05 Jan 2001 11:55

I am still drunk after the succesfull flight.<BR>Might be so for the next few days this weekend.<BR>Cheers!<P>I wonder if they would consider starting of producing naval version first - so they can use them on the Russian a/c instead of MiG29's?.<P>Look at it this way if it takes 2 to 3 years for russian a/c to get ready - it gives time for production of Naval LCA.<P>Might sound bit optomistic - but hey nothing much is impossible!<P>Also I wish they give handsome bonsus to all the people involved with LCA!<P>God Bless India!<P><p>[This message has been edited by Mukundan (edited 05-01-2001).]

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Re: LCA ground run & some other questions

Postby merlin » 05 Jan 2001 12:22

Kaveri will have a maximum thrust of 81 kN (with full reheat) and not more, as they are still using turbine blades of DS material. The final goal for the production version is to use single crystal turbine blades so that a higher TET can be used for increased thrust (90 kN with full reheat). If they manage to pull that off, then the LCA will have an outstanding engine. GTRE has made engines like GTX37-14U, GTX37-14UB and GTX-35 before they started on the Kaveri which should have given then good experience in engine design.<P>LCA carries 3 tons of fuel internally. Since the MTOW is 13 tons and the LCA is supposed to carry 4 tons of weapons then the internal fuel capacity may have increased to 3.5 tons (because empty weight is 5.5 tons), unless the LCA carries 4.5 tons of weapons.<BR>

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Re: LCA ground run & some other questions

Postby neil » 05 Jan 2001 12:23

Picture of the LCA taking off. <A HREF="http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/p/nm/20010104/wl/imdf80946.html" TARGET=_blank>http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/p/nm/20010104/wl/imdf80946.html</A> <BR>with what looks like dummy AAM on wingtips(or maybe testing pods)<BR>Check out TOI for more pics

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Re: LCA ground run & some other questions

Postby Arun_S » 05 Jan 2001 13:53

<I>>> LCA carries 3 tons of fuel internally. Since the MTOW is 13 tons and the LCA is supposed to carry 4 tons of weapons then the internal fuel capacity may have increased to 3.5 tons (because empty weight is 5.5 tons), unless the LCA carries 4.5 tons of weapons.</I><P>Thanks Merlin: Where did you get the 13T MTOW number from ?<P>I was piecing together info to get to that. LCA clean TO weight 8500 kg. mean internal fuel capacity is for 3 T.<P>I would estimate max TO Weight of 10T, similar to JAS Gripen. Now the suggested 13T Max TO Weight does look on the higher side. <P>Though the fuel capacity is 3T, for max payload the amount used would be more likely 1 to 2 Ton only.<P>For Gripen ( of LCA class)the MaxTO weight is only 9.5T and the range is only 600Km.<P>Now here is my current first cut estimates for Air Defence role of LCA: <P>A. The LCA would takeoff with 3T fuel and 1.5 T missiles. Assumes no external fuel tank.<P>B. Cruise thrust @50% of max dry thrust (Thrust of 2.7Ton) for 0.9 mach (~900Km/Hr).<P>C. The fuel comsumption rate for that thrust is 3.4Ton/Hr. { Desired Thrust/SFC => 2700 Kg /0.78 kg/hr/kg}<P>D. Now available fuel on guard station is 2 Ton ( the rest is for combat, reserve, takeoff & landing).<P>E. That gives Cruise time of 0.59 Hr (35 minute) and approximate range of 530Km.<P>F. Combat radius of 265KM (on internal fuel).<P><B>Now that does appear as Mig21 replacement.<BR></B><BR>Additional drop tank and mid-air refulling does increase that significantly.<P>Cheers ....<P>==========================================<BR>JAS Gripen <A HREF="http://www.pasteur.fr/infosci/FAQ/mil-aviation-faq/part1" TARGET=_blank>http://www.pasteur.fr/infosci/FAQ/mil-aviation-faq/part1</A> <P>Vital statistics (JAS 39): length 14.15 m, span 8.40 m, empty weight 5800<BR>kg, max weight 9526 kg, max speed 2336 km/h (Mach 2.2), range 600 km; power<BR>plant: one 80.50 kN Volvo Flygmotor RM12 augmented turbofan; armament:<BR>27mm cannon, wingtip AAM rails, 6 hardpoints.<P><p>[This message has been edited by Arun_S (edited 05-01-2001).]

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Re: LCA ground run & some other questions

Postby geeth » 05 Jan 2001 16:15

From the published info, the maximum expternal stores capacity appears to be 4,000 kg (it is mentioned in Hormus Mama's LCA update)


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