India Tests Prithvi based ABM

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Anabhaya
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Post by Anabhaya »

Anybody who is remotely interested in Indian defence related issues is already on BR. Or is already on the way to BR. So quit worrying about IE, TOI et all.
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Post by Sridhar »

Apart from a handful of journalists, the level of specialized technical knowledge about scientific fields reporters write on is very limited. There are few journalists with solid science backgrounds to begin with, and not that many with self-acquired knowledge either.

There is lifafa journalism and there are lobbies that want negative reporting on DRDO for promoting their own interests. There are also turf battles between DRDO and the services on the one hand, and within DRDO on the other that cause negative stories to come out. But not all cases of bad reporting is a result of these factors. Some of it is pure lack of knowledge.

DRDO needs to also cultivate journalists - not necessarily to bias them to their postion, but also to ensure that there is a bunch of well-informed journalists across publications. They already do this in a limited fashion (Raj Chengappa with DAE, N. Gopal Raj with ISRO and T.S.Subbu with ISRO/DAE/DRDL). But it needs to be expanded significantly.
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Post by Vijay J »

Gentlemen, please focus.

A performance baseline has been set.

Arrow, Patriot whatever has to be atleast this high.
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Post by R Sharma »

Anabhaya wrote:Anybody who is remotely interested in Indian defence related issues is already on BR. Or is already on the way to BR. So quit worrying about IE, TOI et all.
Well its not about everyone who is on BR. How many Indians (tax payers) are in BR reading this discussion? How many Indians will have their opinions (not talking about just defense) shaped by reporters like the person from TOI. Reporitng requires objectivity not subjectivity which is why this generation of reporters is not fit to report on anything of national importance.

I believe that the DRDO does require some amount of restructuring, but they still conducted a successful test which deserves kudos. Most of the reporters, who just post their opinions on "national" newspapers, work to polarize the country and make the tax payers believe in something that is totally biased. Opinions are the right of the reader not the writer.
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Post by hnair »

Shiv Aroor and Amitav Ranjan are two chaps who sounded goofy - DRDO dint even bother to refute or confirm the drivel that was fed to these worthies. Reason being DRDO never was intended to market their output by wining and dining these journalistic bottom feeders. And as gurus here have pointed out in the past, most of the projects they handle, exists because there was no seller for some of the tech they are attempting. And now as Vijay J has pointed out, even for a first test (however controlled and predictable the trajectories are) it looks like the missiles does get cued properly. And that too with the sort of panache that even the Yanks firing stuff off Kwajalein would appreciate

So the IE duo's buddies are doing a version of the downhill skiing - "Because we journalists were proudly exposing those, er, things which go like 'whoosh.... boom' or something, the DRDO chaps panicked and decided to shoot down their own missile!! All you people (whose will/mandate we confiscated) see how clueless DRDO is - they cant even identify their own rockets. We win!!"

A pathetic bunch of losers who are frantically searching for the next Bofors in all the wrong places.
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Post by Arun_S »

BTW the target Prithvi when intercepted 175 second into the flight was in descend phase, much like a real missile attack.

Thus the interceptor rising up hit the target missile which was descending. The interceptor at Mach-11 was more than 3 times the speed of target Prithvi missile, and at that speed the supersonic drag on the missile cone was ~ 2.4 MegaWatt ! No wonder RF seeker was used instead of IR.

The BR's RockSim software comes handy in analyzing such aerial rendezvous, a tool that IMHO no other defense analyst possesses. Only cloaked MIB men working in dark dungeons have ... .. . . .

Back to my cloaked beat in these cold mountains. :wink:
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Cost effective IGMDP

Post by JCage »

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Info/BMD.html

Please read this article in reference with the development of a long range radar. The same can definitely help in upgrading the ADGES and provide an alternative to imports for such strategic systems. An average *short range scanned array radar * can cost upwards of $ 15 Mln factoring in all related services and equipment. Please estimate the cost of a GreenPine level system- some put it above a 100 Mln$ each. Each of these units purchased locally and deployed, is equal to that amount predominantly staying within India and going to a range of firms, public and private which are behind Indian defense.

In an article Brahma Chellaney (for eg) had put a price point on the IGMDP expenditure till date, which is frankly peanuts - 389 million $ till date (assuming BC did indeed factor in the exchange rate variations), and even considering the technology crossdeveloped via other organizations, considering the *scale* of the effort.

The Trishul is said to have cost 70 Mln USD till date, which hardly "bankrupted" the Indian exchequer. Consider, for example- The Comanche, which had taken 6 Billion $ by 2003 and was ultimately cancelled. But the amount of research and development done via the program is bound to show up in the Apache and other programs down the line.

In our case, via the IGMDP- we have the:

Agni-I, Agni-II, IIAT and the Agni-III, Prithvi-1,2 (SS-250), Dhanush.

Apart from all the myriad stuff that goes into them, from launchers, to missile on board computers, mission planning equipment, navigation systems with SINS, fire control systems, mission control centers and communication networks- all this is basically being used across multiple programs, such as the Brahmos.

The stepchildren of the IGMDP such as the Akash (in terms of the strategic programs receiving the most financial impetus from the GOI) have also resulted in various technologies being inducted elsewhere- these include the CAR (7 for the IAF, 2 for the IN, with more IN variants being developed), and the WLR from the Rajendra, which the IA has indented BEL for (under a 1300 crore project- thats $ 300 Million going to Indian companies such as Astra, ECIL etc).

The point is that despite all the useless carping from a largely illinformed and dishnonest media, the IGMDP has delivered on a variety of fronts, with a variety of cost effective systems that have enhanced India's security. Who would have supplied India with Agni's for instance?

It has had problems along the way-the Trishul for eg, but even here, the technologies developed and the lessons learnt will be carried forward in other programs.
Last edited by JCage on 28 Nov 2006 08:52, edited 3 times in total.
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Post by R Sharma »

hnair wrote:Shiv Aroor and Amitav Ranjan are two chaps who sounded goofy - DRDO dint even bother to refute or confirm the drivel that was fed to these worthies. Reason being DRDO never was intended to market their output by wining and dining these journalistic bottom feeders. And as gurus here have pointed out in the past, most of the projects they handle, exists because there was no seller for some of the tech they are attempting. And now as Vijay J has pointed out, even for a first test (however controlled and predictable the trajectories are) it looks like the missiles does get cued properly. And that too with the sort of panache that even the Yanks firing stuff off Kwajalein would appreciate

So the IE duo's buddies are doing a version of the downhill skiing - "Because we journalists were proudly exposing those, er, things which go like 'whoosh.... boom' or something, the DRDO chaps panicked and decided to shoot down their own missile!! All you people (whose will/mandate we confiscated) see how clueless DRDO is - they cant even identify their own rockets. We win!!"

A pathetic bunch of losers who are frantically searching for the next Bofors in all the wrong places.
My problem is with the general state of journalism in India. DRDO is just symptom. The problem is that if this is the quality of journalism that is being fed to the Indian population, then I am sad to say that the Indian population's opinions are being shaped by journalists who don't believe in objectivity. And this maybe true for all stories not just defense.
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Post by ldev »

Published reports imply/report a boost phase interception. If correct, this is an important step, but nevertheless a first step. The next trickier step will be to validate terminal phase interception of only the warhead or the warhead and the RV. Other reports speak of "interceptions of missiles launched thousands of kilometers away". If correctly reported, this would imply something other than ground based radar to monitor launch plumes and compute tracks i.e. something like infra red sensors on satellites because ground based radar will not be able to track launches that far over the horizon and still provide an intercept in the boost phase. Nevertheless, ground based radar alone, tracking launches and computing tracks resulting in intercepts in the boost phase would cover launches from all of Pakistan as well as southern China including Tibet. It may not cover launches from deeper inside China or from Chinese SLBMs or further afield unless there is satellite coverage of potential launch sites via infra red/other sensors reporting launches to to the ground based radar network and the ABM system.
Last edited by ldev on 28 Nov 2006 08:44, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by Kanson »

R Sharma wrote:Why does the media have to criticize the DRDO for everything?


You started to think, "I think that there should be some changes to the DRDO" so media achieved what they want.(I am not criticizing; I am just telling the fact)

Now you also started to say "but still they have successfully conducted a test and deserve the kudos."

Llike you, if everyone started to think, what will happen to the dream empire they have constructed using thier scientific analysis

So the next step from them, "Hit by trenchant criticism, DRDO yanked a 'new missile' "

Your are lucky so you didnt take the bait. But, there are many people still following their lines..If they didnt bring up news like this, then, everyone started to believe like you and what will happen to their dream empire? Will not get shattered by the useless, mean achievement of the drdo in ABM?
Why can't the media commentators be objective instead of subjective?
Still, they havent learned what is difference between elephant and walrus so where is the question of talking about their tusk's shape and size ?

Government brought 'Right to Information Act' to bring transparency and accountability.

What about 'Right information Act' or 'Righteous information act' for the media ?

Will they accept such a one for them or they think they are like Caesar's wife ?

Or, like the sentence in Cigar packet for health, What about branding the wrong press, like "this information is inurious to your brain and mind" ?

If we bring that one, they talk about Press freedom. Sigh

Now, even judges have accountability, if found guility they can also be tried.

When we are going to start the national debate of bringing accountability to Press & Media.
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Post by Vijay J »

hnair,

it is a baseline test, programmed trajectory intercept.

Once a BM is launched in Pakistan, say from Baluchistan, what is the time to target? 6-8 minutes, okay assume everything is automated, so now what is the time to detect? to discriminate? to calculate trajectory? to compute the intercept? to launch the ABM?

If the detection, processing and trajectory calculation were 100% perfect, then what is the time to intercept for arrow or patriot or s300?

It must be at least as good as what the Baan has just shown.

Detection, processing, trajectory calculation, these will just add offsets to the baseline and we can evaluate those separately.

Congratulations to Saraswat and Co!
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Post by Kanson »

JCage wrote:Please read this article in reference with the development of a long range radar.
JC, I am may be wrong, or media may be again like DDM.

What they are talking about here, http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/news ... ewsid=7771

And, What happened to LORA type artillery missile which IA is looking for ? You have any information ?
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Post by Vick »

JCage, in one of your .pdf links, there was an award for a guy who worked on the Rajendra II radar. How does the Raj II differ from the Raj I?
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Post by ramana »

Good thinking VijayJ. If one goes back to kalam's musings many projects on anvil can be foreseen.
Hit by trenchant criticism, DRDO yanked a 'new missile' out of its hat on Monday and used it to 'intercept' a Prithvi missile. And then, promptly proclaimed India had achieved a "significant milestone" in ballistic missile defence (BMD) capabilities.
I guess no one wants to know whats PIROMA is? Well its the opposite of what Rajatji is saying.
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Post by JCage »

Kanson wrote:
JCage wrote:Please read this article in reference with the development of a long range radar.
JC, I am may be wrong, or media may be again like DDM.

What they are talking about here, http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/news ... ewsid=7771
That is the DivyaDrishti project which is different from the Radar project. Its basically the creation of a Vera type system.

http://www.drdo.org/labs/ecs/dlrl/areas.shtml

DIVYA DRISHTI
Divya Drishti is a joint SI Dte – DRDO programme, with the aim of interception, monitoring, direction finding and analysis (IMDFAS) of communication signals. The system will be installed at various locations on static and mobile stations. All stations will be connected through a satellite communication network. The system caters to the mission of building aircraft flight profile (Mission Analysis).
And, What happened to LORA type artillery missile which IA is looking for ? You have any information ?
None so far, bar the Russians pushing their Tochka/ iskander, the Russians their LORA.
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Post by R Sharma »

You started to think, "I think that there should be some changes to the DRDO" so media achieved what they want.(I am not criticizing; I am just telling the fact)
You are half right and half wrong. I do believe that the DRDO needs a restructuring, but it wasn't entirely based on the media. I just think that the DRDO, they have something lik 50 labs under the leadership, is a little too streched. This is coming from a purely business organization standpoint. An organization that big needs either of 2 things, integration or disintegration. Either of these strategies, if done effectively, allows for better accountability and more efficiency. This is not based on the media, but merely based on what I have observed about that organization of the DRDO. My thinking is from a business/corporate stand point and not a media based assumption.
Now you also started to say "but still they have successfully conducted a test and deserve the kudos."
The DRDO deserves it, but the media still fails to give it to them.
Llike you, if everyone started to think, what will happen to the dream empire they have constructed using thier scientific analysis
That is my complain with American media too, which reports on a cat stuck on a tree top in Alabama, but not on the nuclear proliferation orchestrated by our neighbor.
So the next step from them, "Hit by trenchant criticism, DRDO yanked a 'new missile' "

Your are lucky so you didnt take the bait. But, there are many people still following their lines..If they didnt bring up news like this, then, everyone started to believe like you and what will happen to their dream empire? Will not get shattered by the useless, mean achievement of the drdo in ABM?
This is what I am afraid is happening. And it is not only the DRDO, but just in general what has been happening in the media is the mass tabloidization of the newspapers.
Still, they havent learned what is difference between elephant and walrus so where is the question of talking about their tusk's shape and size ?

Government brought 'Right to Information Act' to bring transparency and accountability.

What about 'Right information Act' or 'Righteous information act' for the media ?

Will they accept such a one for them or they think they are like Caesar's wife ?

Or, like the sentence in Cigar packet for health, What about branding the wrong press, like "this information is inurious to your brain and mind" ?

If we bring that one, they talk about Press freedom. Sigh

Now, even judges have accountability, if found guility they can also be tried.

When we are going to start the national debate of bringing accountability to Press & Media.
All of us on this forum should write an email condemning this mass renounciation of basic journalistic ethics by the Press and the Media and spam their emails with requests for more subjective news coverage.
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Post by Singha »

I hereby nominate Dr. Rajat Pandit as head of research, OKB Fakel, Kaliningrad.
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Post by Kanson »

JCage wrote:
Kanson wrote: JC, I am may be wrong, or media may be again like DDM.

What they are talking about here, http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/news ... ewsid=7771
That is the DivyaDrishti project which is different from the Radar project. Its basically the creation of a Vera type system.

http://www.drdo.org/labs/ecs/dlrl/areas.shtml

DIVYA DRISHTI
Divya Drishti is a joint SI Dte – DRDO programme, with the aim of interception, monitoring, direction finding and analysis (IMDFAS) of communication signals. The system will be installed at various locations on static and mobile stations. All stations will be connected through a satellite communication network. The system caters to the mission of building aircraft flight profile (Mission Analysis).
JC, What i want to ask is whether the RADAR which on developement is going to be of 400 km range or something higher ?
Becoz Master-T is more than 400 Km as well as Greenpine too.
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Post by SaiK »

perhaps we need space based irst. q: are there any longer range space based aesa control radars or projects implemented by unkil yet? is it viable in the sense, it should an all weather cloud piercing radar.

chinese already working on anti-satellite systems also be accounted by next generation space ABM support systems, that unkil must be planning or already in space.

other than the ABM, we should also start off (or has it been?) an anti-cruise missile system. ACM, and use brahmos as the target missile that has high G maneuvers.
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Post by Austin »

None so far, bar the Russians pushing their Tochka/ iskander, the Russians their LORA.
Isnt the LORA deal with Israel a done deal for the IA , A Joint devel Project . When was the Iskander ever in contention :-?
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Post by krishnan »

India acquires anti-missile capability

For the first time in Indian history, an indigenously developed missile system was able to track an incoming missile and shoot it down successfully this morning, said military sources.
According to military sources, a target Prithvi missile was launched form the Interim Missile Test Range at Chandipur in Orissa at 10.15 am. The missile was picked up in a few minutes by monitoring radars, and successfully intercepted by another Prithvi missile fired from Wheeler Islands. "It is a historic day," a DRDO scientist told DNA.
Sources said more such interception exercises, termed the Prithvi Air Defence Exercise, would be undertaken in the future. The missile that shot down the incoming missile is termed Prithvi-II, and is believed to be a 250-kilometer range liquid-propellant
ballistic missile.


HMMMMMMM
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Post by JCage »

Vick wrote:JCage, in one of your .pdf links, there was an award for a guy who worked on the Rajendra II radar. How does the Raj II differ from the Raj I?
Software, and I daresay some amount of hardware. There are three blocks- Raj-I, Raj-II and Raj-III. The production Rajendra variant, will be Raj-III. These should be the specs for the Raj-III.

http://img85.imageshack.us/my.php?image ... ard1lc.jpg
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Post by JCage »

Kanson wrote:JC, What i want to ask is whether the RADAR which on developement is going to be of 400 km range or something higher ?
Becoz Master-T is more than 400 Km as well as Greenpine too.
At this point, we have information on a 400km/ 200 target track capability- but the actual specs can vary from the paper ones. For instance, the CAR has a stated range of 180 km against a fighter sized target. But during operational trials during Parakram, it detected an UAV at 200 km. Suffice to say, its best we look at the radar in terms of capability- ie it can be scaled up and establishes the ability to field similar/ better systems.
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Post by JCage »

Austin wrote:
None so far, bar the Russians pushing their Tochka/ iskander, the Russians their LORA.
Isnt the LORA deal with Israel a done deal for the IA , A Joint devel Project . When was the Iskander ever in contention :-?
If we remember, there was much ado about the LORA with the Russians making similar claims about Iskander and the like. My take is that these missiles have an advantage in terms of solid propulsion (lesser logistics), hence IA interest- which we can address via a solid fuelled version of the Prithvi. But the Iskander also comes with seeker technology for the terminal phase for greater accuracy, and the Russians tend to play hardball over TOT by tying multiple deals together.
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Post by Vick »

Thanks for the info. The Raj is a pretty significantly sized radar, why is its range 80km? Not that I am suggesting that range is the only aspect that should be looked at when looking at a radar. I was of the opinion that size and power output are the two most critical aspects for determining range of a radar.
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Post by rakall »

But Rahul Bedi of Jane's Defence Weekly said India is still a very long way from developing an effective missile interception system.

"It's not easy, India is light years away from developing anything like the American Patriot missile defence system which is designed to detect and destroy incoming missiles," he told the BBC.

Where can we find this guy?? is he a puki?

We should tie him to the Prithvi & blast the new ABM up his backside.. inshallah..
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Post by JCage »

Rajendra is partly limited by its platform, it shoehorns everything into a BMP sized unit, with another BMP handling the data processing and the like. Also it is not just a volume search radar with tracking, its a Fire control radar- with associated missile guidance for the SARH Akash, and IFF functions. If we recall, the range appears to have been actually upgraded, from the original 50-60 km to the 80 km now.
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Post by JCage »

rakall wrote:
But Rahul Bedi of Jane's Defence Weekly said India is still a very long way from developing an effective missile interception system.

"It's not easy, India is light years away from developing anything like the American Patriot missile defence system which is designed to detect and destroy incoming missiles," he told the BBC.

Where can we find this guy?? is he a puki?

We should tie him to the Prithvi & blast the new ABM up his backside.. inshallah..
Rakall, all these days on BR, and you still dont know about shri Rahul Bedi? Expat desi, he was the original CAG cut n' paster (which he used to pass off as the "latest"), followed by Messrs Sawheny, Shukla, and now of course Aroor and Ranjan. 8)

Bedi couldnt differentiate between a Prithvi or an Agni if they were handed to him on a plate. Hes an old school leftist to boot who is very contemptuous of the IA's class structure. :P
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Post by Vick »

Hoping for a Tatra based Raj with its independent APU is too much to ask, I guess.

Regarding, the guy has been debunked many times and has been shown to be unreliable but let's keep things in perspective as well. The US fielded the Patriot in a rudimentary ABM role all the way back in 1991 GW-1. Only yesterday did an Indian ABM missile do its first intercept in a test. So, let's not all jump up and down on Bedi for stating something that is obvious but in a crass manner.
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Post by Austin »

But the Iskander also comes with seeker technology for the terminal phase for greater accuracy, and the Russians tend to play hardball over TOT by tying multiple deals together.
With all the DSMC/Real time image processing software thing see no reason what a Iskander can do a Solid Fuel Prithvi cant.

Yes some time back there were reports that the Guidance of Iskander is what India is interested in but no news after that.

Well as far as Iskander goes , There is something for export and something for the Russian Forces , They all bragged about the Iskander-E and how good a Patriot Killer it is , But it is the latter used by Russian Forces is where the real thing lies.

One thing talked about LORA is besides their accurate guidance is its MultiRole capability as in it can be used for Land/Naval application
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Post by Kersi D »

rakall wrote:
But Rahul Bedi of Jane's Defence Weekly said India is still a very long way from developing an effective missile interception system.

"It's not easy, India is light years away from developing anything like the American Patriot missile defence system which is designed to detect and destroy incoming missiles," he told the BBC.

Where can we find this guy?? is he a puki?

We should tie him to the Prithvi & blast the new ABM up his backside.. inshallah..
Please don't waste a Prithivi. Soem of our Diwali firecrackers are more than enough.
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Post by JCage »

Vick wrote:Hoping for a Tatra based Raj with its independent APU is too much to ask, I guess.
It wont meet Army requirements for mobility. The aim is to field T-72 based Rajendras for the IA. But the thing is that eitherways, its not meant to be a long range radar, but a medium range FCR for the Akash. The long range search function is meant to be performed by the CAR!

A Rajendra on a Tatra type vehicle already exists. Its called the WLR. :)
Regarding, the guy has been debunked many times and has been shown to be unreliable but let's keep things in perspective as well. The US fielded the Patriot in a rudimentary ABM role all the way back in 1991 GW-1. Only yesterday did an Indian ABM missile do its first intercept in a test. So, let's not all jump up and down on Bedi for stating something that is obvious but in a crass manner.
The distinction you make is not obvious to the likes of Bedi. He is more likely to come up with a "primitive Prithvi" and "DRDO sucks" kind of response for his statement. Thats what drives his reportage, not the kind of in the details stuff we scratch our heads over on BR for, or what you have mentioned.
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Post by Katare »

Excellent!!!

Only if PV3 flies next month, it won't be a bad year for DRDO!!!
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Post by SaiK »

an idiom like "light years away" does'nt make any logic to make it an "obvious" terms even in the most stupid manner, at a time when the word is "success" , and not "failure".

we have seen articles bashing up drdo and trishul, a3 etc, at the time of difficulties.. and "obvious"ly, there exists a premise for these bedites to lash in the most boorish manner.

may be if pakis smash a gauri agains hatf or something would make these guys happy.
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Post by Vick »

Forgot about the WLR being Tatra based.

About Bedi, we've already wasted too much time, energy and bandwith talking about him in this thread.
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Post by pradeepe »

Vick wrote: Only yesterday did an Indian ABM missile do its first intercept in a test. So, let's not all jump up and down on Bedi for stating something that is obvious but in a crass manner.
Vick, thats not the complete story. Its the first intercept on the first attempt. Something to jump up and down a bit no?

That apart, the amont of lifafa giri among Indian jurnos seems to be really reaching a cresendo so to speak. Making a few occasional egresses from the green zone once in a while would have been expected/maybe tolerated, but this wholesale debauchery...
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Post by JaiS »

Hi JCage,

Don't you think that the development of an RF seeker accurate enough to track a BM at high speeds is a very significant development and deserves more attention, especially considering that similar technology could be leveraged for Astra's seeker also ?

Was just reading Shiv Aroor's latest post on orkut, his words sound so much like Rajat Pandit that it's not even funny !
Last edited by JaiS on 28 Nov 2006 10:51, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Singha »

can this system in current incarnation deal with the Nodong & Hatf-xx
families?

I am assuming it needs to get better for dealing with newer chinese IRBMs like Shaheen ?
rakall
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Post by rakall »

fanne wrote:Well So this has been a long effort. Maybe manytests disguised as Prithvi and Trishul were already done. So I believe this is a home grown effort.
I believe some of the tests termed as solid-fuel Prithvi tests (from 2003 onwards, for which no pics were made available) may have been the flight tests of the new ABM.
Tilak
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Post by Tilak »

JaiS wrote:Was just reading Shiv Aroor's latest post on orkut, his words sound so much like Rajat Pandit that it's not even funny !
Can you/anybody please provide me the name of this group on Orkut.

Thanks.
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