India tests Prithvi based ABM-2

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ramana
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Post by ramana »

Not really true. Uncle wants to sell less capable PACII than the desired PACIII and prevent sale of ARROWII. So its not based on helping with CMD numbers. It could be something else for uncle encouragement of ABM.

Also I have seen maps of radar locations and Indore type place is ideal to cover the 'radar' gap over Central Asia. So its not all what it seems.
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Post by Arun_S »

Kanson: Just that your assumption had clear presence to reasonableness (criteria) that were actually widely off the argument being presented, taking reader to a wrong conclusion. Use of 'IMHO' would have done the trick rather than make an assertion of setting a benchmark to validity of previous assertion.

I do not claim to have seen the missile and DRDO has mentioned the two numbers 640mm and 740mm without explaining. Hence sometimes taking a pessimistic end of the number and sometimes to evaluate the optimistic end of the numberes provided by DRDO. All that I am doing is trying to size the elephant within available data and meld with trade practices to determine an outline, in terms of max & min capability range. Single or 2 stage is developmental path of all high speed missiles. Sorry for confusing you, but I am not a missile Prophet that ordains missile specs (on one that becomes the gospel), but just a midwife to help see in the fog of limited information, and enable to come to ones own conclusion.

NB:Re. burn rate of the motor there is consistency in my statements. You may want to review them again to verify.
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Post by Sudhanshu »

JCage wrote:Kindly go through the following link to get a better view of the prolong etc etc of the DRDO., then consider and think for yourself.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DRDO
JCage wrote: What makes you think they are incapable of making a SAM that can destroy an aircraft? What stage do you think the Akash program is currently at?
I never meant that they(DRDO) didnt do anything at all. They designed many systems (though took painfuly more time), which is least expected from them. Had been they did everything, we would not be second largest arms importer in world.


But this link DRDO let us DOWN, says tyagi

Something which is told by the person who presumably have highest level of knowledge about Akash missile system.

My rationalty doesnt allow me to take your arguments as an accurate one.

And, about the fraud: My argument was just based on premise that people usually (especially in India) commit such fraud in such times. No matter ratio is less or more but there is some ratio. So, such situation is not impossible and based on facts; to me it is feasible.

Because, if I cant develop a system to shoot down a fast moving aircraft, I cant even think of hitting an "enemy" missile with very little info about its parameters.

Yes, I can definitely think of shooting down my own missile in a "controlled" enviroment.

I am sorry, I am not a blind follower.

P.S If you are feeling offended I can stop this argument.
Last edited by Sudhanshu on 30 Nov 2006 22:49, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by fanne »

jcage sahab,
bhais ke age bin bajane se koi fayda nahi, . The fact that he says what if they slowed the speed of Prithvi tells you how much knowledge challenged he is. I remember talking to a computer genius once, he opined that he knew all about computer hardware and suggested that I keep my computer at a clean place , fully covered, lest It caught a virus. you know how much the other person knows and how much he is bs. It IS VERY CLEAR HERE.
RGDS
FANNE

Ps - It is a shame hat you are looking for a blind follower. Apparently the person realized that he is either no blind nor follower or neither. It took him a day though.
Last edited by fanne on 30 Nov 2006 22:56, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by John Snow »

joey wrote:How come US control chinas no of warhead? pakistan yes believable but china? dude china is in P5?
joey. in this forum there pitamahas who talk in upanishad type of snakrit, or shall we say in terms very cryptic code you 'C'.

In nutshell ther sages here since ages ask , seek wisdom but with certain degree of humility to beome respectable and responded to.

I went through the same pangs of learning yearning to know all, but had to re incarinate a number of times to travel the road less travelled.

Acharya, ramana, rajaram, vijay, kgoan and many more gurus tread here incognito sometimes, make the best use of such and such wisely slowly....
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Post by Sudhanshu »

fanne wrote:jcage sahab,
bhais ke age bin bajane se koi fada nahi, . The fact that he says what if they slowed the speed of Prithvi tells you how much knowledge challenged he is. I remember talking to a computer genius once, he opined that he knew all about computer hardware and suggested that I keep my computer at a clean place , fully covered, lest It caught a virus. you know how much the other person knows and how much he is bs. It IS VERY CLEAR HERE.
RGDS
FANNE
:D :D I can only lugh at your post. It belongs to Humor thread, mod kindly move this post there.

Well!! the most hilarious part of your post is you call that guy "computer genius" even after hearing "lest it could catch a virus" thing.

My "lowering missle speed" statement was figurative. Meaning that they might have lowered the missile lethality to make it more predictable and hence creating a so called "controlled enviroment". Which even analyst are agreeing upon that the test was in a controlled envrioment.

Keep it up dude. :)
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Post by ramana »

Upi reports:
BMD Watch:India joins BMD club
By MARTIN SIEFF
UPI Senior News Analyst
WASHINGTON, Nov. 30 (UPI) -- The Indian Defense Ministry announced Monday it had completed what it described as a successful test of anti-ballistic missiles off the Orissa coast.

All Headlien news reported From New Delhi that M. Natarajan, the scientific adviser to the Indian defence minister, told The Hindu newspaper, "With this, India has acquired the capability of air defense against the incoming ballistic missile threat. It is a significant milestone in the missile defense of the country."

"There was a lot of not only hardware but also software custom-built for this mission. They have been validated, and that is our greatest satisfaction,"
Natarajan told the newspaper. "The credit should go to the whole team."

Indian military officials said a target Prithvi-II missile was fired from the Integrated Test Range near Balasore. It was destroyed over the Bay of Bengal by an ABM interceptor rocket launched from Wheeler Island 40m miles away.
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Post by Arun_S »

Sudhanshu wrote:I never meant that they(DRDO) didnt do anything at all. They designed many systems (though took painfuly more time), which is least expected from them. Had been they did everything, we would not be second largest arms importer in world.
It takes two to tango. DRDO does not import, MoD and defense services do. A little introspection of the import lobby might do wonders to your understanding.

Just a humble suggestion.
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Post by Arun_S »

hnair wrote:About local development of Strategic systems, what about the COTS content? Wont that compromise its reliability? Doesnt a lot of the processing done using COTS processors?
Saar, Nuts and bolts (COTS) used to make a strategic system are themselves not strategic. There are usually a set well defined parts/functions/knowhow that is ordinarily not COTS and key to realize the overall functionality of the strategic system that is of value that need to be protected.


E.g. COTS transputer (from what is now ST Microelectronics) was used to make 'Param' India's first supercomputer for strategic applications.
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US Cooperation with Friends and Allies in BMD

Post by sunilUpa »

US policy on Cooperation with Friends and Allies in Missile defence.
Because the threats of the 21st century also endanger our friends and allies around the world, it is essential that we work together to defend against these threats. Missile defense cooperation will be a feature of U.S. relations with close, long-standing allies, and an important means to build new relationships with new friends like Russia.


The Department of Defense shall develop and deploy missile defenses capable of protecting not only the United States and our deployed forces, but also friends and allies;

The Secretary of Defense shall also structure the missile defense program in a manner that encourages industrial participation by friends and allies, consistent with overall U.S. national security; and

The Secretaries of Defense and State shall promote international missile defense cooperation, including within bilateral and alliance structures such as NATO, and shall negotiate appropriate arrangements for this purpose

From National Security Presidential Directive 23


The following report has interesting info on testing of BMD in US including Arrow 2 tests.

Director of Operational Test and Evaluation (DOT&E) Report
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Post by Abhiman »

hi. As per following news article from 2005, modified Prithvi and Greenpine radars was not to be used in ABM system :
Pranab denies converting Prithvi into anti-missile

New Delhi, August 17, 2005: Defence Minister Pranab Mukherjee on Wednesday ruled out any move to convert the short range surface-to-surface Prithvi missile into an anti-missile or a nuclear shield.

"There are no plans to integrate Prithvi missile with Israeli Greenpine radar as a defence cover in respect of nuclear threat," Defence Minister Pranab Mukherjee told the Rajya Sabha in written answer.

The Minister's reply assumes significance amidst reports that Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) has been working on a project to develop an anti-missile shield. But experts feel that Prithvi with its liquid base propellent does not fill the bill.

While working on development of an indigenous system, India is also looking to acquire such a system from abroad with the US administration now offering it advanced Patriot PAC-3 anti-missile system.
Thus, it may be unclear why above statement was made, which is contrary to recent event and also which verifies above report's "rumour" of 2005, that DRDO was working on ABM system with modified Prithvi and Israeli radar.
Thanks.

reference :
http://www.expressindia.com/fullstory.php?newsid=52900
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Post by JCage »

Sudhanshu wrote: I never meant that they(DRDO) didnt do anything at all.
Really? Go back and read your words then.
They designed many systems (though took painfuly more time), which is least expected from them.
Uh huh. Please tell us the secret divyastra which means that everyone in India can develop sanctioned technology overnight.
Had been they did everything, we would not be second largest arms importer in world.
Kindly start using some logic in your arguements rather than such a display of silliness. When was DRDO ever tasked to develop everything?
Even a cursory grasp of India's defence acquisitions should show that India needs so much equipment over such a range of categories, that it needs multiple arms development agencies and one wont be enough.
But this link DRDO let us DOWN, says tyagi

Something which is told by the person who presumably have highest level of knowledge about Akash missile system.
He is speaking of the delay. Every service chief needs his equipment asap. You were claiming issues on technical grounds, given the program is well along and not stopped, your claims dont hold water.
My rationalty doesnt allow me to take your arguments as an accurate one.
You are hardly displaying any rationality. What you are basically saying is: "I was dishonest, and I know of cases where some Army men were, so being an Indian I expect DRDO/ Army in general to be likewise". Dont project.
And, about the fraud: My argument was just based on premise that people usually (especially in India) commit such fraud in such times. No matter ratio is less or more but there is some ratio. So, such situation is not impossible and based on facts; to me it is feasible.
Your arguement is generalized and speculative.
Because, if I cant develop a system to shoot down a fast moving aircraft, I cant even think of hitting an "enemy" missile with very little info about its parameters.
You are talking stuff about something you dont understand.
The Akash began successful flight trials three years back, after metallurgy issues were resolved. In contrast, the painstaking work in other programs of the IGMDP has allowed this ATBM program to have a successful first test.

The typical aspect in you which you approach the topic is visible in this next statement, ie without understanding even the basics of the topic under discussion:
" I cant even think of hitting an "enemy" missile with very little info about its parameters"
Really? What is the GreenPine radar and the entire C3I network and ADGES upgrade meant for then?
Yes, I can definitely think of shooting down my own missile in a "controlled" enviroment.
What is this "controlled environment" business. Do you think all tests ramp up or begin with the most complicated ones from day 1?

Please, you must be joking.

The ABM test was meant to demonstrate the ability to engage a Prithvi class missile. It did so on its very first test.

Obviously, before productionizing it, it will be scaled up and made more capable with more comprehensive trials.

But the point is that the basic system design works as shown by the first test.

I am sorry, I am not a blind follower.
You are blinded by your own lack of logic and knowledge.
P.S If you are feeling offended I can stop this argument.
I am not offended. We get folks like you every two months. Thats the price BR pays for its visibility, and unfortunately its upto the members here to make you learn.
Last edited by JCage on 30 Nov 2006 23:41, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by JCage »

Abhiman wrote:hi. As per following news article from 2005, modified Prithvi and Greenpine radars was not to be used in ABM system :
Pranab denies converting Prithvi into anti-missile

New Delhi, August 17, 2005: Defence Minister Pranab Mukherjee on Wednesday ruled out any move to convert the short range surface-to-surface Prithvi missile into an anti-missile or a nuclear shield.

"There are no plans to integrate Prithvi missile with Israeli Greenpine radar as a defence cover in respect of nuclear threat," Defence Minister Pranab Mukherjee told the Rajya Sabha in written answer.

The Minister's reply assumes significance amidst reports that Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) has been working on a project to develop an anti-missile shield. But experts feel that Prithvi with its liquid base propellent does not fill the bill.

While working on development of an indigenous system, India is also looking to acquire such a system from abroad with the US administration now offering it advanced Patriot PAC-3 anti-missile system.
Thus, it may be unclear why above statement was made, which is contrary to recent event and also which verifies above report's "rumour" of 2005, that DRDO was working on ABM system with modified Prithvi and Israeli radar.
Thanks.

reference :
http://www.expressindia.com/fullstory.php?newsid=52900
He is technically correct. Read the underlined text. There is no mention of *converted Prithvi*, he only says the Prithvi shall not be integrated with GreenPine. That is correct. Why would you do so? :wink:

Rest is the PTI journos interpretation.
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Post by R Sharma »

So in other words, the Prithvi could have been integrated with another "indigenous" version of the Greenpine just not called the Greenpine? I guess my question is, has the DRDO developed an equivalent of the Greenpine that was tested with this test?
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Post by JCage »

No. What the report says is that no Prithvis will be used with the GreenPine. And the Minister is correct. Why would you want a SSM with a ABM radar to be used as a SAM. He doesnt say Prithvi tech wont be used.
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Post by R Sharma »

JCage wrote:No. What the report says is that no Prithvis will be used with the GreenPine. And the Minister is correct. Why would you want a SSM with a ABM radar to be used as a SAM. He doesnt say Prithvi tech wont be used.
Aha I see the point now. He does not mention a modified Prithvi in the statement. Thanks.
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Post by Austin »

Wait for new issue of Indian Today , ie on Friday , Has an exclusive on the Indian ABM system , Its a Phatakadi ........... :D
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Post by Sadler »

Austin wrote:Wait for new issue of Indian Today , ie on Friday , Has an exclusive on the Indian ABM system , Its a Phatakadi ........... :D
Any suggestions on how i may be able to access/read the above forthcoming article??
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Post by ramana »

Austin, Is it INDIA TODAY and not Indian Today? Also links please or do we go to the desi store?

Anyway need a synopsis from you after you read it for those without access.
Thanks,
ramana
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Post by mandrake »

Ramana sorry for asking again i searcged google couldnt came up with anything, can you tell me which company makes the seeker of Arrow 2?
boeing or IAI ?
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Post by sunilUpa »

Sadler wrote:
Austin wrote:Wait for new issue of Indian Today , ie on Friday , Has an exclusive on the Indian ABM system , Its a Phatakadi ........... :D
Any suggestions on how i may be able to access/read the above forthcoming article??
You need to subscribe to printed version. Then you can access online version free.
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Post by Austin »

I am sorry ramana , typo on my part.

The new edition of India Today should come out on Friday , What I understand is they have exclusive pics of the interceptor and the details of the same , more details will be known by tommorow when the mag is out.
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Post by Raj Malhotra »

joey wrote:Ramana sorry for asking again i searcged google couldnt came up with anything, can you tell me which company makes the seeker of Arrow 2?
boeing or IAI ?
IIRC the IR seeker is US and radar seeker is Israeli
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Post by sunilUpa »

joey wrote:Ramana sorry for asking again i searcged google couldnt came up with anything, can you tell me which company makes the seeker of Arrow 2?
boeing or IAI ?
IR seeker is from Raytheon.
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Post by Cybaru »

Austin wrote:I am sorry ramana , typo on my part.

The new edition of India Today should come out on Friday , What I understand is they have exclusive pics of the interceptor and the details of the same , more details will be known by tommorow when the mag is out.
Can someone scan and send it around ??

Thx.
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Post by Kanson »

Arun_S wrote:DRDO has mentioned the two numbers 640mm and 740mm without explaining
Arun_S, It is not two motors with different dia. It the same motor mentioned as one data as external dia and another data as internal dia. This what techfocus says..
DRDO has developed a state-of-the-art case-bonded HTPB-based composite propellant with low burn rate of 4.3 mm/s at 50 KSC. {This means propellant type of particular mix/sizing which gives low burn rate of 4.3}

This solid propellant rocket motor (dia 740/620 mm, length 6 m) {it means same motor with internal dia of 620mm and external dia of 740mm and not otherwise}, made of 250 grade maraging steel, consists of a composite nozzle with metallic backup and lined with carbon phenolic liners. The motor is capable of generating 16 ton thrust for 38 s duration.
Even if you take it as a two diff motor, for the same set/method of fuel packing(which is described above) you cannot have the parameters thrust, burntime same for two diff dia motor. So it is the same motor whose external dia is 740mm and internal dia is 620mm.

Sizing the elephant is not a problem. The way it was done created confusion. Anyway i told it is not two different motor.

See..When presenting the data openly, it is always subjected to analysis. It is the duty of person doing the presentation to defend what he says about the data. After presenting the data, one cannot say, this data cannot be viewed differently or to be viewed only this way. It is defender to defend his data in all angles. So, when someone is trying to analysis the data presented, in his view, that doesnt means that he is doing benchmarking, creating a perception or confusion. This is how it works.

Even, if someone laughs at eqn E=mc^2 on how mass can be equated to energy, then at the presentation, it the responsibility of the Einstein to prove why he felt so.
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Post by Nalla Baalu »

Austin saar! I am looking at web edition of India-today's latest edition dated Dec 04 2006 (cover reads 'The new laws of marriage'). But it doesnt carry any feature on defence. Were you referring to the next edition dated Dec 11th?
Austin wrote:I am sorry ramana , typo on my part.

The new edition of India Today should come out on Friday , What I understand is they have exclusive pics of the interceptor and the details of the same , more details will be known by tommorow when the mag is out.
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Post by Dileep »

If OD is 740 and ID is 620, the wall thickness should be 6 cm. Is that real?
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Post by Kanson »

Calculation is right, it is 6 cm. To give a correct perception, instead of just saying thickness as 6 cm, say for a motor of height 600 cm, ext dia 74 cm and thick 6 cm for rocket motor application.

Instead of me giving the judgement, let ask the experts here to give a judgement.
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Post by Austin »

Nalla Baalu , Yes thats right :)
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Post by Arun_S »

Kanson wrote:
Arun_S wrote:DRDO has mentioned the two numbers 640mm and 740mm without explaining
Arun_S, It is not two motors with different dia. .
What makes you think I do not understand that?
It the same motor mentioned as one data as external dia and another data as internal dia. This what techfocus says...
As a simple technical fellow I too read it the way you did, to interprete "dia 740/620 mm" but that inner-outer diameter interpretation did not make sense for this rocket motor, because it is far from reasonable stage mass-fraction (is too heavy). A 3cm thick rocket casing wall is ok for soft iron material, for maraging steel it makes no sense. So you see why I do not see what you see?
DRDO has developed a state-of-the-art case-bonded HTPB-based composite propellant with low burn rate of 4.3 mm/s at 50 KSC. {This means propellant type of particular mix/sizing which gives low burn rate of 4.3}
That is plain english, I see no room for ambiguity?
This solid propellant rocket motor (dia 740/620 mm, length 6 m) {it means same motor with internal dia of 620mm and external dia of 740mm and not otherwise}, made of 250 grade maraging steel, consists of a composite nozzle with metallic backup and lined with carbon phenolic liners. The motor is capable of generating 16 ton thrust for 38 s duration.
The only thing that is substantive here is 38 sec and 16 ton thrust. The prior slow speed burn rate is inconsiquential detail that is irrelevent, (as I mentioed to another poster yesterday). There is no use chasing the tail of 740/620mm here.
Even if you take it as a two diff motor, for the same set/method of fuel packing(which is described above) you cannot have the parameters thrust, burntime same for two diff dia motor. So it is the same motor whose external dia is 740mm and internal dia is 620mm.

Sizing the elephant is not a problem. The way it was done created confusion. Anyway i told it is not two different motor.
:twisted: :twisted:
See..When presenting the data openly, it is always subjected to analysis. It is the duty of person doing the presentation to defend what he says about the data. After presenting the data, one cannot say, this data cannot be viewed differently or to be viewed only this way. It is defender to defend his data in all angles. So, when someone is trying to analysis the data presented, in his view, that doesnt means that he is doing benchmarking, creating a perception or confusion. This is how it works.
:roll: ... . . I trying to understand, but sorry to say that, in a partial-integral calculus class, a pre-algebra kid comes in to say this 3'rd order curve should approximate as area of a traingle, and I am supposed to defend the partial-integral solution to someone who does not understand the framework, and has a primitve tool in his hand? Give me a break, if you can refine it, yes I will spend time try to understand, if you degrade it I ant going to teach you, you tell me why your method is better and it works. This is a collaborative learning forum not a class room. There is nothing left to discuss with you my friend.
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Post by abhischekcc »

Please move the discussion of the strategic impact of am test in this thread:

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewtopic.php?t=2687
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Post by Dileep »

Does the 740/620 figure means the motor has a taper :twisted:
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Post by ramana »

Dont know. Only the US Sprint ABM had a tapering body for stability.
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Post by Sudhanshu »

@JCage
Problem is with mis-interpretation. I cant change your perceptions.

I guess, the comment and counter-comment will continue; If I reply any further to that topic of discussion. So, as a sane member of BRF I would like to end that.

Whatever I wanted to say ,is there.
Someday, someone will interpret it correctly.
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Post by JCage »

Sudhanshu, thats ok.
Last edited by JCage on 01 Dec 2006 04:37, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by ramana »

Enough guys of this ego-centric bs.
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Post by JCage »

No ego in it ramana.

But I daresay stating that the ATBM test is fraudulent, because thats the way the general public in India is, is a bit too much to not respond to.
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Post by Sudhanshu »

JCage wrote:No ego in it ramana.

But I daresay stating that the ATBM test is fraudulent, because thats the way the general public in India is, is a bit too much to not respond to.
{Interpretation error}
I am and my whole family is an Indian I would never generalize such thing, even unconciously.
I just meant to say that there can be such possiblity because here a lot of people do that under such circumstances (and army was an extreme example). <- One gets inspiration from his/her surrounding.
Last edited by Sudhanshu on 01 Dec 2006 05:19, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by JCage »

Sigh, no point.
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