India's missile defence - Arrow vs. S-300

shashidhar
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Re: India's missile defence - Arrow vs. S-300

Postby shashidhar » 12 Dec 2002 20:47

I wonder about these reports-what has the top politicians got to do with technical parameters?I think the policy decisions to have a nuclear capable missile is sane.But whether to have ram jet or soloid propellants is not for Putin or George boys decision.those I thought were for the tech guys to decide.Am I getting it wrong or is it DDM again?

Rudra
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Re: India's missile defence - Arrow vs. S-300

Postby Rudra » 18 Dec 2002 09:37

a pdf link short desc and interior photo of CITRON TREE C3I post for ARROW ATBM system.

thing seems to fit in standard 40' trailer.
I think this is as important as Green Pine. Green Pine is useless without a system like citron tree. no mention in indic media of C3I center.

http://www.tadsys.com/images/Tmd.pdf

Arun_S
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Re: India's missile defence - Arrow vs. S-300

Postby Arun_S » 19 Dec 2002 08:29

From latest Aviation Week and Space Technology

The latest test of the Pentagon's ground-based midcourse missile defense system failed Dec. 11 when the interceptor fired from the Kwajalein Atoll in the Marshall Islands didn't eject the exoatmospheric kill vehicle that intercepts the target. A similar failure occurred in a June 2000 test and was linked to a software problem with the booster. The Missile Defense Agency is developing two new boosters, which are slated to begin flight testing next year. The test failure ends a string of four intercepts. During last week's test, the Boeing 747-400F modified as the Airborne Laser used its infrared sensors to track the target that was launched from Vandenberg AFB, Calif. The X-band radar used for the Theater High-Altitude Area Defense project also tracked the target.

Philip
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Re: India's missile defence - Arrow vs. S-300

Postby Philip » 19 Dec 2002 09:06

VAYU in a recent article on how to protect Indian cities from Paki missile attack,suggest the following.

1.The Russian S-300PMU1/2 systems are considered superior to US and Israeli equivalents (Arrow and Patriot).They have better scoot capability ensuring better survivability too.

2.Paki missiles threatening India are basically similar to US Pershing-2 type,that forced Russia to develop the S-300V and VM versions (Antei-2500).Pershing 2 had a a very small radar cross section and delivery range upto 2500km.Pershing 2 missiles are more sophisticated than those missiles operated by Pak.

3.S-300VM ADMS missiles allow engagement of nearly invisible ballistic missiles moving upto 4500m/sec,launched from distances of upto 25ookm.The ADMS radar can detect an incoming missile within 3 seconds and deliver firing data.The S-300VM has additional advantage in that it can cut-out enemy jammers and command centre ai
rcraft beyond its range of 200km.

4.Other missiles systems available can only protect India from Shaheen 1 versions only.Shaheen 2 can only be defeated by the Antei 2500.Pak estimates that Shaheen 2 will be a sufficient deterrent against India.

5.The S-300VM ADMS will be able to counter Shaheen 2 as well as other cruise missile,aircraft threats.If pak develops missiles better than Shaheen 2,then the S-400 ADMS will suffice.The Director of Antei,Yuri Svirin says that the S-300VM is not the last modification of that family of S-300 VM ADMS family of missiles
and new capabilities are in the offing.

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Re: India's missile defence - Arrow vs. S-300

Postby Arun A » 23 Dec 2002 22:59

UPI hears

Israel's top soldier, Chief of General Staff Moshe Yaalon, flew into Ankara to meet his Turkish counterpart, Hilmi Ozkok, Monday, talking about the building of a joint anti-missile defensive shield. This is the result of the unpublicized American offer to bring Turkey into the anti-missile club, probably the most important of the many sweeteners offered to Turkey to secure its backing for U.S. military operations against Iraq. Israel brings as its dowry to the deal its Arrow missile, co-developed with the United States. The Arrow is designed to shoot incoming short- and medium-range missiles -- like Iraq's Scuds -- at a far greater distance (up to 60 miles) and altitude (up to 20 miles) than the obsolescent Patriots. There are two hitches: First, production is slow. Israel has deployed only two batteries, and may not be able to provide any to Turkey in time to be useful against Iraq. Second, Israel is counting on exporting the Arrow, but needs U.S. approval, less for export to a NATO ally like Turkey than for the really juicy market, India. The deal seems to be that if the United States wants Israel to provide the Arrow for Turkey, it will also have to approve sales to India. <u>The prospect is ringing alarm bells in the U.S. State Department.</u> Giving India an anti-missile capability (evidently aimed against Pakistan) would undermine President Pervez Musharraf and escalate India-Pakistan tensions to a new pitch.

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Re: India's missile defence - Arrow vs. S-300

Postby Sanjay » 24 Dec 2002 01:50

Guys,
Hate to burst any bubbles - the Vayu article was an advertisement of sorts direct from Rosboronexport.
India wants the Arrow and all Russian systems are second choice at present.
Russia is desperate for a deal - up to 250 Antey 2500 systems and 150 S-400 systems could be involved.
Israel is equally keen.
India isn't too sure if the Russians products actually work and thinks that the Russians are overcharging.
More research in progress...

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Re: India's missile defence - Arrow vs. S-300

Postby Rudra » 24 Dec 2002 02:01

by system do you mean TEL ? thats a huge number.

for that kind of $$ it better work as advertised. Shooting down a parachute flare at 3km doesnt count!

I would go with Israel and Citron Tree. they wouldnt stake the defence of homeland on a useless system. their electronic systems are far superior to Rus.

JTull
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Re: India's missile defence - Arrow vs. S-300

Postby JTull » 24 Dec 2002 03:27

Originally posted by Arun A:
[QB Giving India an anti-missile capability (evidently aimed against Pakistan) would undermine President Pervez Musharraf and escalate India-Pakistan tensions to a new pitch.[/QB]
I think the 'balance of tensions' :D will shift in our favor.


Div
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Re: India's missile defence - Arrow vs. S-300

Postby Div » 25 Dec 2002 10:24

IMO, any Indian missile defense is likely to be tiered - and the Russians will have their niche.

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Re: India's missile defence - Arrow vs. S-300

Postby MohanJ » 25 Dec 2002 10:42

I agree Div., One needs to get the latest and electronically superior Arrows as well as have a II tier experience/expertise-wise superior S-300 series to be sure enough! Like having both Mirages and SUs in the AF.

Protection of just the four metros will be deterrent enough.. right/wrong?
TSP is not likely to target other smaller cities and risk the wrath of a huge and massive retaliation on all its cities.. and also the four metro tight ABM defence grid will pour water on the Paki 'N' Card.

Rudra
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Re: India's missile defence - Arrow vs. S-300

Postby Rudra » 25 Dec 2002 20:01

atleast the 10 largest indian cities will need protection, not just the spoilt brat Metros. this
is necessary to degrade the value of Paks missile force - i.e. they cant touch our most vital cities. protecting chennai and leaving blore exposed for example is of no value.

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Re: India's missile defence - Arrow vs. S-300

Postby Philip » 25 Dec 2002 20:02

Please don't underestimate the Paki threat to smaller cities,especially those with significant military assets.Pak may very well strike these undefended (against ballistic missiles) cities just because they are smaller and will alsos serve as an example/threat to larger cities in case India also intends a counterstrike.The international outrage will be of a lesser scream if say a small military city/town was destroyed rather than a large metro.This would also bring with it intense international pressure on India not to retaliate in kind (fat chance!)or wind down its military offensive to prevent further nuclear escalation.

There is right now a scramble for India's order book for an ABM system.For obvious reasons the US also wants to get into the act because India can both supply funds for the development of its own unsiuccessful systems as well act as an advertisement for the same!Israel has just the Arrow.Perhaps its missile warning radar systems are superior to the Russians,but in rocketry,the Russians are the masters.No nation has the breadth and variety of missile systems developed by the Russians.India needs a tier of missiles,held together by a high performance detection and command system.Perhaps the best bet would be acombination of Israeli/Indian/Russian radar systems with Russian and Israeli missiles.
too.
With the US now ready to sell sophisticated military eqpt. to India,see how the Germans are getting into the picture reagrding selling their latest subs to us.However ,the real truth is that the German sub consortium-which also bought over the Swedish sub builder Kockums, is now owned by the US.Ha!Ha!

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Re: India's missile defence - Arrow vs. S-300

Postby neeraj » 25 Dec 2002 22:40

Didnt India buy the Antey 2500 ABM system some time back which is based on the S-300

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Re: India's missile defence - Arrow vs. S-300

Postby Kakkaji » 26 Dec 2002 04:45

Originally posted by Dr.JaganMohan:
Protection of just the four metros will be deterrent enough.. right/wrong?
In addition to the four metros, Bangalore also definitely needs to be protected, as it is the driver of the new economy.

Manohar
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Re: India's missile defence - Arrow vs. S-300

Postby Manohar » 07 Jan 2003 03:47

There has been a series of reports in the Indian press about a delegation led by Mr. Sheelkant Sharma to be in DC Jan 15-16 to discuss the Arrow.

Now, I hear that the delegation is not coming:-)

Does anyone know the actual fact of whether there is a delegation or not?

--Manohar.

davidn
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Re: India's missile defence - Arrow vs. S-300

Postby davidn » 07 Jan 2003 03:58

Originally posted by neeraj:
Didnt India buy the Antey 2500 ABM system some time back which is based on the S-300
Yeah I remember that, although I can't remember whether that was for trial/evaluation or for operational deployment

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Re: India's missile defence - Arrow vs. S-300

Postby Kakkaji » 08 Jan 2003 23:25

From 'Hindu News Update':
(Link is temporary)

http://www.hinduonnet.com/thehindu/holnus/03082207.htm

*********
US eyes Russian technologies for missile shield

Moscow, Jan. 8. (PTI): Acknowledging Russia's lead in anti- ballistic missiles defence systems, the United States is eyeing Russian technologies for its missile shield under the National Missile Defence project.

"Keeping in view that Russia has knowhow and certain experience in defence systems, we believe that it would be a very serious partnership," US Ambassador Alexander Vershbow, said in an interview to Interfax expressing Washington's readiness for most extensive cooperation with Moscow in developing a joint missile shield for both countries.

"Russia has advanced technologies like S-300, S-400 ABM systems, anti-aircraft missiles, which could be easily converted into anti-ballistic missiles," Vershbow noted.

He said that within the missile shield cooperation Russia and US could also jointly develop laser or other futuristic technologies.

Vershbow acknowledged that the US missile shield's early deployment system is still in the initial stage of development and a decision on its next stage is yet to be taken, since the technologies are still under development.

According to him the US and Russia, which are facing the common threats (of rouge missiles), could cooperate in the development of early-warning system, systems for intercepting ballistic missiles and 'killer' missiles.
**********


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