Significant breakthrough in Nag project

Vishnu
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Significant breakthrough in Nag project

Postby Vishnu » 22 Feb 2003 15:38

Hi ... The following is a press release from the MoD ... it speaks for itself:

Vishnu Som
NDTV/STAR News

Three users Test flights of NAG carried out at AHMEDNAGAR recently have fulfilled the mission objectives meeting Army's stringent specifications.

The aim of these flights test was to prove Imaging Infra Red (IIR)Sensor Based Seeker Guidance during day and night alongwith other specific qualitative requirements like performance of Propellant and Improvised Algorithm for Auto Roll Pilot.

All three tests achieved the range of 4 km and flight take off was smooth hitting the targets with cent per cent accuracy.

For the first time in the history of development of NAG Missile the IIR Sensor Based Seeker Guidance has been proved. This is one most important successful research and development achievement in the NAG Missile. The contemporary missiles in the World are Gill (Israel) with a range of 2.5 km, Spike (Israel) with a range of 4 km (FOGM) and Javelin (USA) with a range of 2 km.

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Re: Significant breakthrough in Nag project

Postby Kersi D » 22 Feb 2003 15:48

Vishnu

Thanks for a encouraging post.

I had some interesting discussion with the DRDO/BEL person at DEF EXPO last year.

Bad News
The negative feedback is that DRDO/BEL have given up on the MMW guidance, for the time being.

Good News
NAG was be inducted in IA in 2003/2004. DRDO/BEL have developed an electro-optical pod for the guidance of NAG. This pod can be fitted to a land vehicle or a helicoptor i.e. Dhruv. The pod has FLIR and a laser system. I do not recollect whether it is a laser range finder or a laser target designator or a laser makrked target seeker. i think I have the brochure of this guidance system.

Except that the MMW guidance has no yet got off the ground NAG should soon be ready to pulverise the Al Khalid

Kersi

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Re: Significant breakthrough in Nag project

Postby Prateek » 22 Feb 2003 16:15

Thsnks for the update Vishnu !

Here are some other reports on the same...

The Nag would replace the Indian army's aging French acquired Milan anti-tank missiles.

http://www.zeenews.com/links/articles.asp?aid=82135&sid=TOP

http://www.irna.com/en/head/030222111232.ehe.shtml

http://www.outlookindia.com/pti_news.asp?id=121692

He said for the first time in the country the Nag's highly advanced Imaging Infra Red (IIR) sensor based seeker guidance, giving the missile cent per hit ability had been proved making India only the sixth country in the world after US, Germany, France, Sweden and Israel to have such technology.

"All three tests achieved the range of 4kms in top attack mode in day as well as night trials hitting target with cent percent accuracy", top DRDO officials said. They said the Missile was tested in mobile vehicle launchers and tests on Tube launched mode and helicopters with enhanced range would commence soon.

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Re: Significant breakthrough in Nag project

Postby Priyank » 22 Feb 2003 16:23

What is also of significance is that these successful tests of the complete system were carried out at Ahmednagar.

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Re: Significant breakthrough in Nag project

Postby Prateek » 22 Feb 2003 16:34

Originally posted by Priyank:
What is also of significance is that these successful tests of the complete system were carried out at Ahmednagar.
What's so significant about Ahmednagar ?

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Re: Significant breakthrough in Nag project

Postby Reg » 22 Feb 2003 16:59

Armoured Corp Center, Ahmednagar.

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Re: Significant breakthrough in Nag project

Postby Rajiv Lather » 22 Feb 2003 17:43

Vishnu Som,

Will you please mail me your email address at

rajiv@haryana-online.com

Rajiv Lather

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Re: Significant breakthrough in Nag project

Postby Nandai » 22 Feb 2003 17:46

Ummm, you might wanna check out the Armour thread, there is a Nag discussion there already, unnecessary to open a new thread for this.

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Re: Significant breakthrough in Nag project

Postby Rudra » 22 Feb 2003 20:10

brings it more to attention of Paki lurkers though. dont forget to post in ur 'indu military watch' thread boys!

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Re: Significant breakthrough in Nag project

Postby shiv » 22 Feb 2003 20:39

Philip has given me a set of magazines that I am still sifting through and I promise to search for what I shall now refer to.

There was a news item about some kind of breakthrough made in the US tha "promises" to make it easier for "millimetric wave" devices to be made. Apparently they are difficult and expensive to fashion.

We once had a long discussion on BR about MMW guidance, which was causing Nag-related hiccups known from Aero India 1998.

What is IIR? Are IR rays millimetric?

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Re: Significant breakthrough in Nag project

Postby Sukumar » 22 Feb 2003 20:47

Originally posted by muddur:
"All three tests achieved the range of 4kms in top attack mode in day as well as night trials hitting target with cent percent accuracy", top DRDO officials said. They said the Missile was tested in mobile vehicle launchers and tests on Tube launched mode and helicopters with enhanced range would commence soon.
Top attack mode - is that with the missile flying level over the target with a directional warhead firing downward (like TOW-2) or is the missile's attack profile to dive in on the target (like a Hellfire) ? Does anyone know ? if you have photos of the cross section of the Nag that would help.

Also the paragraphs quoted by Vishnu compare Nag to the wrong contemporaries. It should be really compared to TOW-2 or Hellfire.

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Re: Significant breakthrough in Nag project

Postby Vick » 22 Feb 2003 21:07

The Nag's flight profile is straight and level then it shoots up and dives down with the nose hitting the top of the tank.

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Re: Significant breakthrough in Nag project

Postby Guest » 22 Feb 2003 21:09

brings it more to attention of Paki lurkers though. dont forget to post in ur 'indu military watch' thread boys!
Rudra, Now that puts them in a dilemna, to be or not to be........ :D ;)

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Re: Significant breakthrough in Nag project

Postby Anoop » 22 Feb 2003 21:17

Originally posted by shiv:
What is IIR? Are IR rays millimetric?
Shiv, this general purpose primer on wavelengths may be useful:
web page

The infra red region spans two orders of magnitude from 1 to ~ 100 microns. A 1000 microns make a millimeter, so the mmW is a much longer than IR.

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Re: Significant breakthrough in Nag project

Postby Philip » 22 Feb 2003 21:55

This is a curious announcement,right on the heels of a news item a day ago that said that both Trishul and Nag were being dumped because they had failed!Is this announcement about Nag mant to defelct criticism about the programme.At Aero India,Nag was conspicous by its absence (almost),unlike previous occassions.If it true,then well done.Trishul's failure and the possibility that Barak too is being "run in " is amore serious matter than Nag.

The IN does not have a proven anti-missile ssytem aboard any of its warships,even though it has made rapid strides in modernising its anti-ship missile capabilities,with Uran,Klub,Dhanush and now Brahmos (under development)being inducted into service.

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Re: Significant breakthrough in Nag project

Postby Cybaru » 23 Feb 2003 00:28

Originally posted by Rudra Singha:
brings it more to attention of Paki lurkers though. dont forget to post in ur 'indu military watch' thread boys!
Acutally I went there after the french-indo training exercises to see the effects of BVR training and I didn't locate anything out there. Hmm seemingly they completely ingnored it.

Any of you holding accounts on that site wanna help pepcid sales up ? ;)

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Re: Significant breakthrough in Nag project

Postby Div » 23 Feb 2003 00:42

Gee...and I thought some esteemed DDM publications recently mentioned that the Nag was a bust, being put to rest. Whaddya know!

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Re: Significant breakthrough in Nag project

Postby Prateek » 23 Feb 2003 00:52

Originally posted by Rudra Singha:
brings it more to attention of Paki lurkers though. dont forget to post in ur 'indu military watch' thread boys!
Since Pakistan was added to the list of countries whose citizens require registration, the number of postings on the other forum has decreased drastically. Hardly single digit posts per day ! :rotfl: :lol:

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Re: Significant breakthrough in Nag project

Postby Rangudu » 23 Feb 2003 00:54

Thanks Vishnu. I was really ****ed off seeing that Newindpress report saying Nag was to be scrapped.

This is good news indeed.

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Re: Significant breakthrough in Nag project

Postby Shalav » 23 Feb 2003 03:18

Originally posted by shiv:
What is IIR? Are IR rays millimetric?
IIR = Imaging Infra Red. IR used to create defineable electronic images for machines to work on - in this case comparison of images for target lock. An advancement on simple IR targeting which only distinguishes between hot and cold.

The electromagnetic spectrum can be roughly divided according to wavelenght:

Gamma rays = 10<sup>-11</sup> m and lower
x-rays = bet 10<sup>-11</sup> m and 4x10<sup>-9</sup> m
Ultraviolet = bet 4x10<sup>-9</sup> m and 4x10<sup>-7</sup> m
visible Light = bet 4x10<sup>-7</sup> m and 7.5x10<sup>-7</sup> m
Infrared = bet 7.5x10<sup>-7</sup> m and 10<sup>-3</sup> m
microwaves = bet 10<sup>-3</sup> m and 10<sup>-2</sup> m = between 1 mm to 1 cm
radiowaves = greater than 10<sup>-2</sup> m = 1 cm and above wavelengths

RADAR bands work in the radio wave spectrum ie greater than 1 cm wavelengths. mmW band RADARS are intended to radiate in the microwave spectrum i think. ie less than 1 cm wavelengths hence mmW designation.

IIRC the idea behind mmW was that it had a longer wavelength than IR thus was capable of penetrating smoke which blinded IR, at the same time its wavelenght was small enough to distinguish and sort out targets, which would have been lost by the comparitively longer wavelenght L,S,C,X and K band radars.

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Re: Significant breakthrough in Nag project

Postby Cybaru » 23 Feb 2003 03:53

Originally posted by muddur:
Since Pakistan was added to the list of countries whose citizens require registration, the number of postings on the other forum has decreased drastically. Hardly single digit posts per day !
LOL!!

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Re: Significant breakthrough in Nag project

Postby Katare » 23 Feb 2003 06:03

A small write-up, from top of my head, for Shive and all other non-technical background, BR members. It’s directly related to my profession so……..

Any part of electromagnetic spectrum (Gamm, X-ray, UV, Visual, IR, Radar, communication etc) can be used to create images (or communication) given sensor is available for it. Spectrum starts in ascending order from X-ray/gama and alph/beta rays they have smallest wavelength ( <1 nanometer). These wavelengths are used to penetrate solid bodies to create pictures of inside architecture/faults, Like X-ray is used to identify broken bones. They can only travel few centimeters.

Second comes UV light with wavelengths lower than 400nm but higher than x-ray etc. Any EM weave below 400 nm is a health risk and highly carcinogenic. I am not very sure about any uses of UV imagery in existence.

Than comes visual light Imagery (400 nm to 700 nm) that all human being and most mammals use to create images and to calculate coordinates of still and moving objects. Visual light is available from neutral source and easiest to work with in creating Imagery and calculating coordinates of objects at short distance but they are limited in range/time. Moreover range reduces as weather deteriorates and almost goes to zero in night. Artificial lights, optics and lasers were invented to improve on range, limitations at night and bed weather, still distance is low because of the higher frequency/velocity.

IIR or Imaging Infrared (700 nm to 1700 + nm is called near infrared) is another way of creating Images and calculating coordinates of objects. By Rule as wavelength increases range of travel of electromagnetic wave increases (frequency and velocity reduces )and more information can be carried on it. Lower velocity/frequency means simpler receiver. (Formula => Frequency = Velocity/wavelength). Only works on short distance (line of sight)

Than comes Radar and communication waves that could go as high as 300 M (1 MHz) in wavelength and can travel thousand’s of kilometer if antenna’s/satellites are available to counter earth’s curvature. They can see objects thousands km away.

High frequency (all of the above except radar and communication) like micro/MMW/IR travels in straight line (Line of sight) but has very high degree of signal attenuation mostly because of oxygen and water vapor (needs more power). While low Frequency (meter wave/radio wave) tries to hug the earth surface so they can travel longer distance.

For Imaging/detection, you need two things an electromagnetic energy source a receiver/sensor to generate Image using reflected/emitted EM energy. Detection/imaging can be classified (most simply) as passive and active. When you generate EM energy to illuminate target, its active detection, you would need both a source and and a receiver/sensor to generate Images and coordinates. Hunter can become hunted in active mode. When target emits EM energy (heat, IR, radar wave and other communication equipment used by enemy) or it’s available in the medium, like visual/sun light or sound waves under sea (SONAR) it’s passive detection with no risk of hunter becoming hunted

Any questions or corrections are welcome!

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Re: Significant breakthrough in Nag project

Postby Rajit » 23 Feb 2003 08:50

Rather than blame the DDM always...let's wake up and smell the coffee that the IGMDP has only delivered 2 out of 5 missiles successfully so far. DRDO's lack of transparency on Trishul (Note George's comments about it being a technology demonstrator), and finally coming out with the admission that it cant do MMW for Nag undermine previous successes, and a lot of the good work that has been done in trying to develop these missiles.Expect a similar confessional statement about 'Akash' in the days to come.IOC dates for all these missiles were Mid 1990s and though they might be less spectacular than Agni / Prithvi...these are the bread and butter weapon systems for the armed forces.

The BRAHMOS JV is the way to go in these matters...why reinvent the wheel when the base technology exists for a weapon.Now if we can aggressively partner with the Israelis(themselves were pioneers in reverese engineering / co-developing ) and make our stalled projects reach fruition.....then we become "self-sufficient" and can also start exporting some of this stuff.

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Re: Significant breakthrough in Nag project

Postby Rudra » 23 Feb 2003 09:38

the problem with your thesis mr. Ojha is

- nobody was tripping over shoelaces to provide tech for phased array radars, IIR seekers and reporter radars BEFORE we showed some success.

- even if they supply so called TOT, it only allows you to manufacture the parts locally, NOT gain the knowledge and data for next-gen systems...you need to pony up another billion for that...repeat n times.

if anything has opened the floodgates its the IGDMP, nukes, LCA, Dhruv, sundry non-sexy DRDO stuff and that 75 bil forex...not love and respect for indians.

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Re: Significant breakthrough in Nag project

Postby Rangudu » 23 Feb 2003 10:58

if anything has opened the floodgates its the IGDMP, nukes, LCA, Dhruv, sundry non-sexy DRDO stuff and that 75 bil forex...not love and respect for indians
Exactly GD. You hit it on the head. The fact is that we are just at the threshold of the indigenous capabilities exploding manifold. The rush for JV offers is a clear indication that the Western/Russian players take our indi tech seriously.

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Re: Significant breakthrough in Nag project

Postby Umrao » 23 Feb 2003 11:24

That is what I said. Now that Kaveri after all the curves it took ;) , is ready to come on stream is it any more surprise that its bringing along tributaries from Sienne, Moskova, Thames, soon Potamac too.

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Re: Significant breakthrough in Nag project

Postby Kakkaji » 23 Feb 2003 11:32

Folks:

Why all the gloom and doom about the IGMDP?

AFAIK, out of the original five, Prithvi and Akash have been inducted (with newer variants under development &/or testing), and Akash and Nag have cleared user trials and are ready for induction. Only Trishul has been shelved, and that too after proving some technologies that we did not have before.

Four (rather four and a half) out of five is not a bad score, IMO. And after the first batch, with continuous improvement, the MarkII versions of all these missiles will be much superior. So I'd say we should be happy, not despondant. Nobody would have sold us the advanced technologies that we have developed through this program.

Kalam Saheb ki Jai!

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Re: Significant breakthrough in Nag project

Postby Rajit » 23 Feb 2003 11:49

Rudra, thanks for the respectful address but Rajit will do just fine:-)

Strange, I always thought the arms merchants flocking to the country for JVs et al was a result of our finally getting rid of an antiquated "Brahminical' sense of superiority that we could do everything ourselves, when countries with a more robust infrastructure - Israel, Japan, Taiwan chose the "co-opetition" route.

No one is debating the need for IGMDP or other 'indigenous' programs, or their partial successes...but to gloss over serious failures which have resulted in farcical situations like the INS Brahmaputra sailing out to sea armed with MANPAD equivalent systems....is equally injudicious.

As for Kalam Saheb ki Jai.....sure...but why do we get into hagiographic mode whenever defence or cricket gets discussed.Insecurity?

For the record let Nag and Akash first get into dedicated User trials before going rah rah...lest we forget we still have those 124 token Arjuns out there..yet the T 90s lead the RD parade.

Regards

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Re: Significant breakthrough in Nag project

Postby Umrao » 23 Feb 2003 11:55

while admittedly there is truth to what rajit says
(the Aakash Nag programs started in 1983/84).

The reason arms peddlers are eager to do business is not only lideralization, swelling of FE coffers, slack in demand (else where), but most importantly their ware will be obsolete (at least from Indian requiement POV) because of Indian stuff likely to come on stream.

I would not believe if GTRE guys tell me Kaveri is ready, but when GE/PW and europeans are ready to sell is a sure indication of Kaveri ready (mode)

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Re: Significant breakthrough in Nag project

Postby member_5161 » 23 Feb 2003 12:28

Well... what rajit is saying is may be true under present conditions...But, tell me who were ready with same enthu to say even 10 years back for so called JV...

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Re: Significant breakthrough in Nag project

Postby Shankar » 23 Feb 2003 13:10

Let us say congrats to DRDO for the success of NAG.IIR technology based seeker head
and it s probable range of 6-8 km ,closer to 8 km makes it better than even hellfire -the best anti tank weapon in the world.It is true DRDO takes time but when it delivers the product is better than world class.Agni is way better than Perishing,Akash once inducted will be much superior to Patriot -3 ,Prithvi may not be a very state of the art system but definitely much economical and basic foundation of our existing and future
missiles including hopefully the ICBM Surya.
We think too much of Pakistan and Al Khalid stuff
How will Nag fare against M1A2 or T-90 that should be the yard stick of performance
Can Agni -2 pentrate an Aegis -SM2 screen -may be yes
Can Prthvi be volley fired with HE/cluster to take out Sargodha /Karachi in 5 min
by defeating the Croatle screen- lets have some comments pl

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Re: Significant breakthrough in Nag project

Postby Katare » 23 Feb 2003 21:04

DRDO = Mix Bag (Mostly poor in packaging, good in fundamental research)
IGMDP = Success of ISRO (Mostly)

Key to success = Reform

If I were the Defense minister I’ll do this -

Reform - Internal = DRDO culture/ethics/synergy with armed forces/down to earth and realistic approach/ Development sales team and emphasis on marketing for export, go global

Reform - External = Collaboration and strategic tie ups with as many as MNC's possible on mutually profitable and commercially viable terms with minimum possible govt. involvement

Reform - Policy = Most important = Road map for bringing in at least $ 5 Bil in private investment in R&D and infrastructure and equal amount as FDI in next 10 years. All Public defense PSUs should be asked to corporatized and enlist in domestic and international markets (where ever possible) to raise capital for upgrading production facilities with in next 5 years without govt. support. Buy-Back/off-set law/ordinance should be passed and a fixed portion, say starting with half a billion next year, going as high as 5 bill in next 5 years, in new business should go to private sector by law on competitive basis. Ordnance factories should be restructured to create 2-3 large corporates that will have goal to become public and diversify customer base in next 5 years. FDI cap in defense sector should be raised to 49% immediately with a road map to raise it to 51% in medium term and up to 74% in long term.

Defense R&D should be divided in three parts – (1) Fundamental research -mostly done by IIT”s and DRDO labs money for that should come from Murali Manohar Joshi’s Pocket. (2) Developmental research this should be done by production facilities in collaboration with DRDO and educational institutes, money should come from George’s Pocket under R&D account. (3) Production, this should be divided between private and PSU’s in a predetermined ratio (by law) and should be financed by armed forces. PSU’s and Private sector both would be required to bid for any part of the order individually or collectively.

This is too much for any Indian defense minister to do in 5 years with in a 20+ party alliance govt.

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Re: Significant breakthrough in Nag project

Postby JCage » 23 Feb 2003 21:44

Originally posted by philip fowler:
This is a curious announcement,right on the heels of a news item a day ago that said that both Trishul and Nag were being dumped because they had failed!Is this announcement about Nag mant to defelct criticism about the programme.At Aero India,Nag was conspicous by its absence (almost),unlike previous occassions.If it true,then well done.Trishul's failure and the possibility that Barak too is being "run in " is amore serious matter than Nag.

The IN does not have a proven anti-missile ssytem aboard any of its warships,even though it has made rapid strides in modernising its anti-ship missile capabilities,with Uran,Klub,Dhanush and now Brahmos (under development)being inducted into service.
Hi,

The Nag is liked by the Army!This from the horse's mouth-Army Aviation.

Gentlemen-like i said-there was good news on the Nag front.

To put things in perspective-before this thread degenerates into another "IGMDP/DRDO/XYZ" fracas and remains on track.

The Nag has been accepted by the Army in entirety.

But they want an all weather one-the MMW version.
The MMW one also has had good news.DRDO has been able to indigenise certain components which had been sanction denied.However,work on other componets and the guidance system is still continuing.

Any way we see it,the Nag is a very significant achievement.The missile utilises a form of thrust vectoring and processes target data in real time for a top attack-(and no unlike Bill etc its direct attack)its tandem warhead(note ERA on turret is no good) has also been certified!All this occurs in a few seconds,the control algorithms have to work super fast to hit a moving target.The moving target being recorded in the missiles "brain" as an image.

Please note that these trials are the penultimate!User trials.Not development trials which were succesful ; after that the missile was finally handed over to the user ie the Indian Army.

With this induction,work will progress on-the "weatherproof" MMW version and the combined CCD/FLIR one.

And the present variant,basically gives the "night" over to the IA.We control it.
No Opfor tank today,whether it be the AlKhalid or the T84,or even the Type 98-can take a tandem warhead top attack ATGM which strikes from 4km "out".

Gents,the IA is not only happy about the Nag but all the goodies in the ATGM arena it is inducting. :)

We have basically made our ATGM section among the most potent in the world!All our frontline ATGM's will be tandem warhead'ed.

On the IGMDP-next look for Akash entering the user trials and acing them.The last two tests have been flawless!

Regards,
Nitin

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Re: Significant breakthrough in Nag project

Postby Guest » 23 Feb 2003 21:55

Anyone know how the max armor penetration capability of the Nag?

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Re: Significant breakthrough in Nag project

Postby JCage » 23 Feb 2003 22:07

And as regards JV's:
1.We can make things on our own now.
2.We have money.

Both very important in themselves!

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Re: Significant breakthrough in Nag project

Postby NRao » 23 Feb 2003 22:26

Rajit,

Your point is well taken. However, the issues are not binary and therefore cannot be resolved at all. All projects have forces acting on them: some good, some not so good and some totally bad. Bottom line is that products see the light of the day, user trial meet the users goals.

If we could, we should save this thread for the Nag.

Thanks.

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Re: Significant breakthrough in Nag project

Postby ramana » 23 Feb 2003 22:29

Good that the IIR seeker version is cleared.
Nag is unique for it does away with the man in loop needed for the wire guidance. Also it has top attack mde where the armor is weak.
MMW is harder. The technique is based on homing in on the MMW emitted by engine ignition coils etc. So it is kind of terminal homing based on emissions from the target. Its much harder and was probably thrown in as tech challenge during the requirements phase.
Still IIR seeker Nag is nothing to sneeze about for it gives fire and forget capablity. Besides think about it wrt to TSP when do they need all weather capability for anti-tanks? IA can always flood them in the Punjab region.

There was talk of guided Mortar rounds(SKEET type)/sub-munitions what is the progress on those?

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Re: Significant breakthrough in Nag project

Postby Aditya_M » 23 Feb 2003 23:02

two things, will the Nag be shoulder launched too?

And secondly, now that we have developed an IIR seeker (an awesome thing), will the next logical step be an air-to-air missile? Esp. since none of the Archers so far have IIR?

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Re: Significant breakthrough in Nag project

Postby Priyank » 23 Feb 2003 23:03

Ramana,

I don't mean to nitpick but the mmw version of Nag has nothing to do with emissions from the ignition coils in the engine or for that matter any kind of emissions from its target. It uses a radar that operates in the mmw range for guidance. The advantages of this is that the mmw radar is not hindered foul weather. It would give the Nag a true all-weather day and night capability. So come rain or shine Paki tanks are toast. :)

The IIR version on the other hand depends on heat emissions from its target for guidance and is hindered by foul weather.

I think you mixed up the two types.

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Re: Significant breakthrough in Nag project

Postby Ashutosh » 23 Feb 2003 23:09

Originally posted by Aditya Mandrekar:
two things, will the Nag be shoulder launched too?
Inshallah! That will be one helluva shoulder!!!

This is good news - congratulations to all involved. IIR version might get confused in bad weather smoke/fog/rain and will miss it's target but then it will go and take out that innocent Syed/Sidd hiding behind a tree and send him to the place he always wanted to go :lol:


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