Significant breakthrough in Nag project

shashidhar
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Re: Significant breakthrough in Nag project

Postby shashidhar » 23 Feb 2003 23:16

Ha, To Indian bashing again!
This is a nation which was out of the loop of industrialisation for 2 centuries,was under embargo,denial regimes.Now people are pointing fingers?Only a few have strived hard for this nation to be counted.The rest lend their ugly voices in abuse and venom.

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Re: Significant breakthrough in Nag project

Postby Priyank » 23 Feb 2003 23:28

No I don't think the Nag is planned to be fielded as a shoulder fired system. It is just too heavy. Though I donot know about a tripod mounted system that can be carried by a two or three man team. Maybe someone who knows more about the program can comment.

Also any plans on mounting the Nag on Jeeps and other light vehicles especially for the SF? Any plans to mount it on the APCs/IFVs of the mechanized infantry?

Could someone give some specs on the Namica i.e. how many Nags can it carry, how much armour protection does it have, what thermal imaging systems does it use etc.? (I presume thermal imagers are used for surveillance, acquisition and the initial targetting for the IIR version.)

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Re: Significant breakthrough in Nag project

Postby NRao » 23 Feb 2003 23:33

Originally posted by Priyank:
No I don't think the Nag is planned to be fielded as a shoulder fired system. It is just too heavy. Though I donot know about a tripod mounted system that can be carried by a two or three man team. Maybe someone who knows more about the program can comment.

Also any plans on mounting the Nag on Jeeps and other light vehicles especially for the SF? Any plans to mount it on the APCs/IFVs of the mechanized infantry?

Could someone give some specs on the Namica i.e. how many Nags can it carry, how much armour protection does it have, what thermal imaging systems does it use etc.? (I presume thermal imagers are used for surveillance, acquisition and the initial targetting for the IIR version.)
Locate BR URL using Google.com

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Re: Significant breakthrough in Nag project

Postby Div » 24 Feb 2003 02:43


JE Menon
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Re: Significant breakthrough in Nag project

Postby JE Menon » 24 Feb 2003 03:58

Doesn't the NAMICA vehicle in the last pic in the link posted by Div have the Larsen & Toubro logo?

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Re: Significant breakthrough in Nag project

Postby ASPuar » 24 Feb 2003 04:27

Yeah It looks like it does.

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Re: Significant breakthrough in Nag project

Postby Avid » 24 Feb 2003 04:59

as for the doubters about MMW - a quick read about US efforts and time taken for developing and fielding MMW seeker on hellfire. It might help answer why DRDO ought to continue pursuing the MMW seeker.

Googled copy of Jane's Article from October 2000

p.s. the jane's article is not longer available direct but great google has a cached copy :cool:

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Re: Significant breakthrough in Nag project

Postby shiv » 24 Feb 2003 10:59

Originally posted by JE Menon:
Doesn't the NAMICA vehicle in the last pic in the link posted by Div have the Larsen & Toubro logo?
I can see a DRDO logo - not an LT logo

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Re: Significant breakthrough in Nag project

Postby Div » 24 Feb 2003 11:03

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/MISSILES/Images/NAG-1.jpg

Shiv,
Look to the left of the DRDO logo...you'll see something like...

<img src="http://www.larsentoubro.com/pix/logo01.gif" alt="" />

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Re: Significant breakthrough in Nag project

Postby Manne » 24 Feb 2003 13:06

L&T has been working with DRDO and IA/IN on a number of projects. Nag was one. Nitin mentioned Arjun tracks IIRC. ATV is another. Then there is Pinaka. Another one that can be mentioned here is MKI.

Great news on Nag front. This thread could surely do without the usual intellectual "DRDO-y/n/mb" discussion.

Vishnu, thanx.

[added later]
What exactly is the range of Nag? 4/6/8 km?

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Re: Significant breakthrough in Nag project

Postby Shankar » 24 Feb 2003 14:19

The imaging infrared technology comming out of successful Nag project will have far
reaching spin offs
- seeker heads for short range air air to missiles
- missile decoys for anti ship missiles
- night vision devices for tanks and aircraft
- seeker heads for air launched anti armour missiles of which Nag is just the first one
- anti ship missiles

also some civilian uses
- fire fighting
- enrgy audit
-search and rescue
- law enforcement
- circuit board manufacturing

Development of IIR technology essentially means capability to produce gallium arsenide based photo detectors which can see in the infrared spectrum and since it does not require visible light even starlight to operate on even a stationary tank can be
located and destryed with total certainity in dark minimising the exposure to helicopter crew .Pakistani tanks in night and in a desert of Rajastan will just be score of some MI-17 pilot in about a minute .

George J

Re: Significant breakthrough in Nag project

Postby George J » 24 Feb 2003 19:29

Originally posted by shankarghosh:
Development of IIR technology essentially means capability to produce gallium arsenide based photo detectors............
Thats what they have GAETEC for: Gallium Aresenide Enabling Techonology Center in Hyderabad.

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Re: Significant breakthrough in Nag project

Postby Rudra » 24 Feb 2003 20:10

what is the speed of missile ?

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Re: Significant breakthrough in Nag project

Postby JCage » 24 Feb 2003 21:03

Originally posted by Manne:
L&T has been working with DRDO and IA/IN on a number of projects. Nag was one. Nitin mentioned Arjun tracks IIRC. ATV is another. Then there is Pinaka. Another one that can be mentioned here is MKI.

Great news on Nag front. This thread could surely do without the usual intellectual "DRDO-y/n/mb" discussion.

Vishnu, thanx.

[added later]
What exactly is the range of Nag? 4/6/8 km?
Rupak noted the Arjun tracks thing. :)
The Nag range can be standardised as 4Km.

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Re: Significant breakthrough in Nag project

Postby shiv » 24 Feb 2003 21:15

Originally posted by Div:
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/MISSILES/Images/NAG-1.jpg

Shiv,
Look to the left of the DRDO logo...you'll see something like...

Yes

Silly me - didn't look at that picture. In fact I think at least 2 of those pics were scanned by me and at perhaps at least one was taken by Raj Malhotra at Defexpo

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Re: Significant breakthrough in Nag project

Postby NRao » 24 Feb 2003 21:34

Originally posted by Rudra Singha:
what is the speed of missile ?
IIRC, 15 sec for the 4 Km flight.

If correct, it is misleading, Nag does loop up to strike at the top of the tank.

Also, other ATGMs because they have to have a constant lock (not all) need blinding speed. Nag is FF, speed could have been sacrifised for accuracy. The speed of the algos to recompute target image/s need to be blinding.

As areference, most top ATGMs do 400m/secs or less.

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Re: Significant breakthrough in Nag project

Postby saint » 25 Feb 2003 02:20

15 seconds for 4kms makes it mach 0.802 per web page

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Re: Significant breakthrough in Nag project

Postby NRao » 25 Feb 2003 02:51

In this article, dated Jan 02:
NAG
Nag is a third generation anti-tank guided missile (ATGM) that possesses an all-weather capability and also has top attack capability. In other words, it targets the turret of the tank, where the armour is the thinnest.

Nag's airframe is made of composite materials, which make the missile light, without compromising its strength, while its foldable wings enable it to be launched by a tube, like any other third generation ATGM.

While the first generation ATGMs are wire guided, the second generation is semiautomatic. The third generation is a fire and forget type.

Nag has been designed to be launched from 'either the Namica (BMP-2) vehicle or the Army Aviation version of the Advanced Light Helicopter (ALH). However, the exact status of the latter this version is not known. Trial launches of the missile using the Namaica have been conducted.

Propulsion

Nag uses solid propulsion. A smokeless high energy solid propellant is used in Nag. The advantage of using such propellant is that it 'would not leave tell-tale trails behind', and would, thus, enable the launcher to 'make good its escape'.

Guidance

Nag uses homing guidance. In this type of guidance, a homing head also called a seeker head locks on to the target, after receiving the target co-ordinates from the tracking radar, in its infrared or millimetric sights, before being fired. A seeker head is vital to the missile because it enables it to reach the target (home in). The seeker has already been tested.

Range and Warhead

Nag has a range of four km. The missile uses a tandem warhead. Warheads for various missiles

The explanation of 1st, 2nd and 3rd was nice, I did not know the diff.

States that teh tracking radar passes the coords before firing. Questions:
1. Does the tracking radar on the Namica have to be able to "see" the target? 4 Km is a long distance. In a desert it may be OK, what about other terrains?
2. Can the tracking radar be up in a helo? Pass info to the Namica.......

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Re: Significant breakthrough in Nag project

Postby saint » 25 Feb 2003 02:56

why not then the helo itself launch the NAG. Fire {within 4kms}and move {10kms away}after launch is easy and brisk.

100 such helos with 10 Nags each can kill 1000 al khalids.

Nag betters hellfire!? could have laser designator versions too. some more range improvements could be better, and DU NAGs would be ggrrreat!

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Re: Significant breakthrough in Nag project

Postby NRao » 25 Feb 2003 03:21

Originally posted by Sai_NT:
why not then the helo itself launch the NAG. Fire {within 4kms}and move {10kms away}after launch is easy and brisk.

100 such helos with 10 Nags each can kill 1000 al khalids.

Nag betters hellfire!? could have laser designator versions too.
An El Khalid could get lucky and not face a helo with Nags.

What if such a El Khalid sneaks up on a Namica from behind a clump of trees? But then (DANK style) a loitering helo locates the El Khalid. The Helo has used up all its Nags - all 10 - got 11 El Khalids. OK. Now what? This helo is able to provie th coords, (others may not be able to).

(God, at this rate TSP is going to dispute the existance of El Khalid)

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Re: Significant breakthrough in Nag project

Postby saint » 25 Feb 2003 03:55

>>The Helo has used up all its Nags - all 10 - got 11 El Khalids.

There would be backup helos. Remember no war is fought without planning. You must be assured NAG-LCHs {helos}
would be always replenished for forward operations in fixed numbers always full loaded while the backups refill and
replace the fighting ones in colloboration.

>>>What if such a El Khalid sneaks up on a Namica from behind a clump of trees?

..unless our radars are useless. Besides, our helo formations have a big hole then..

I am not saying Namica is not needed. If the war is fought in jungles, then I can this
situation.. but I can't think why would Namica would be positioned such a way. If,
that dirty khalid has the guts to get so near, then there is something needs to be done
in our drawing boards right away.

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Re: Significant breakthrough in Nag project

Postby Rudra » 25 Feb 2003 04:00

speed is also important. work is underway in usa, germany, uk for next series of active defence systems for tanks.

it will use MMW radar atop tank to detect inbound shells and missiles, then deploy countermeasures like smoke cloud, IR dazzler and grenades (arena+shtora).

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Re: Significant breakthrough in Nag project

Postby chaitanya » 25 Feb 2003 05:33

4 km seems pretty dismal for the Nag. I would expect it to be atleast 6km in range. I mean it weighs 42 kg and the Hellfire weighs 45 kg and it can go 8 km. Please correct my thinking if I am wrong...

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Re: Significant breakthrough in Nag project

Postby saint » 25 Feb 2003 05:38

I don't think so.. may Nag with 3kgs of the solid propellent more can make it another 2 to 4 kilometers. :) .. will have to wait after the product is used effectively and feedback comes back to DRDO.. it will be improvised.

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Re: Significant breakthrough in Nag project

Postby chaitanya » 25 Feb 2003 05:43

Thats good. For a second there i was beginning to whine...

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Re: Significant breakthrough in Nag project

Postby Priyank » 25 Feb 2003 06:18

DU NAGs would be ggrrreat!
The Nag does not use kinetic energy to penetrate and destroy tanks. That makes depleted uranium useless in the Nag.

Added later - Corrected the post.

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Re: Significant breakthrough in Nag project

Postby jobatra » 25 Feb 2003 08:03

This has probably been posted here before, but it's worth looking at again --Javelin.mpg

A 50 lb hand-held top-attack atgm with two shaped warheads weighing about 18 lbs can do WHAT to a t-72 ?

----
btw priyank, doesn't the LOSAT use Kinetic energy ?

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Re: Significant breakthrough in Nag project

Postby Priyank » 25 Feb 2003 08:18

btw priyank, doesn't the LOSAT use Kinetic energy ?
Yeah it does. My bad. I'll correct the post. A case of open-mouth-insert-foot. :D The Nag definitely doesnot use KE so DU for it is for sure useless.

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Re: Significant breakthrough in Nag project

Postby Div » 25 Feb 2003 08:28

Originally posted by jobatra:
This has probably been posted here before, but it's worth looking at again --Javelin.mpg

A 50 lb hand-held top-attack atgm with two shaped warheads weighing about 18 lbs can do WHAT to a t-72 ?

----
btw priyank, doesn't the LOSAT use Kinetic energy ?
I don't know how far that tank was, but I counted 12 seconds to impact.

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Re: Significant breakthrough in Nag project

Postby subhendu » 25 Feb 2003 08:36

Originally posted by jobatra:
This has probably been posted here before, but it's worth looking at again --Javelin.mpg
This test was rigged, the tank was loaded with explosives. You can double check on the tanknet forum.

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Re: Significant breakthrough in Nag project

Postby Vick » 25 Feb 2003 08:43

How does the Nag stack up against the Chinese HJ-9, HJ-9A/B? How about the Hellfire?

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Re: Significant breakthrough in Nag project

Postby ramana » 25 Feb 2003 09:14

saint the IAF plan is to mount 8 Nags on an ALH. One of the link says they plan to buy 100 as a first go around. So they dont plan to do much tank killig with it. The IA wants to buy 500 of these. The NAG is a long range ATGM as opposed to the Milans and Konkurs. So that gives you an idea of its role. It uses a shaped charge to attack the top armor in a tank which is the thinnest. So it has to overfly the tank.
Someone was asking bout its wieght etc. That is realted to the specific impulse of the propellent. If US type ones are used they need a lot of pampering.

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Re: Significant breakthrough in Nag project

Postby Joeqp » 25 Feb 2003 09:35

Call me crazy, but if we want to change the "Al Khalid" into a "Al Vida" :) , wouldn't you want as many Nags as there are "Al Khalids", and then some more for wastage?

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Re: Significant breakthrough in Nag project

Postby Kersi D » 25 Feb 2003 15:45

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Vishnu Som:
[QB]Hi ... The following is a press release from the MoD ... it speaks for itself:

Vishnu Som
NDTV/STAR News

Vishnu,

I would like to get in touch with you. Please contact me on kersidotiwalla@hotmail.com

Regards
Kersi

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Re: Significant breakthrough in Nag project

Postby Aditya_M » 25 Feb 2003 18:56

(ROFLMAO on Al Vida Manavendra :D )

Ok, my bad for not making myself clear - the Tripod launched version is what I had in mind, shoulder launched came to mind :p

My second question though seems to have been lost - isnt the development of IIR tech great when it comes to making AAMs too?

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Re: Significant breakthrough in Nag project

Postby venkat_r » 25 Feb 2003 19:29

In the Javlin test the missile actually penetrated the tank before exploding. Is it possible with every tank (with armor) on the battlefield?

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Re: Significant breakthrough in Nag project

Postby shiv » 25 Feb 2003 20:15

Originally posted by subhendu:
--Javelin.mpg
This test was rigged, the tank was loaded with explosives. You can double check on the tanknet forum.[/QB][/QUOTE]

It certainly is

I extracted 4 consecutive key frames and made an animated gif to show that the tank scene is blended artificially to an explosion scene.

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/Temp/tankaput.gif

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Re: Significant breakthrough in Nag project

Postby NRao » 25 Feb 2003 20:25

Overlayed scenes? The tank still stands? Good extraction job Shiv.

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Re: Significant breakthrough in Nag project

Postby saint » 25 Feb 2003 22:13

some dumbo Qs?

Would our kanchan armour on top of arjun tanks(?), withstand a Nag hit?

How many Nags would it take to destroy an arjun?

Can two or more Nags lock on to a same target?

Can two mor more Nagas lock onto separate targets at the same time/launch from an helo?

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Re: Significant breakthrough in Nag project

Postby Umrao » 25 Feb 2003 22:25

Some question answers to Sai_nt's questions.

Q. Would our kanchan armor on top of arjun tanks(?), withstand a Nag hit?
Answer Q. How do you think they would have calibrated Nags penetration efficiency. Conversely Kanchans durability.

Q. How many Nags would it take to destroy an arjun?

Answer Q: As many as it would take (modeled on NDA guide preperation) :)

q. Can two or more Nags lock on to a same target?

Answer Q. Can more than One station be equipped with Nag and target the same target?

Q: Can two or more Nagas lock onto separate targets at the same time/launch from a helo?
Same Answer Question as above.


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