Ground Based Radars of the IAF

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Re: Ground Based Radars of the IAF

Postby Jagan » 13 Apr 2003 00:19

Pictures of Indian Radars (of the IAF units)

STS-68
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/Temp/STS68.jpg

Thompson Radar Unit (Dont know the model number)
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/Temp/TRU.jpg

The older Russian P-19
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/Temp/P-19.jpg

The Missile Guidance Radar of the Pechora Unit is in the background
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/Temp/MGR.jpg
Note that both the MGR and the Missiles are always pointed in the same direction. The missiles traverse in the same path as the MGR does

the tracking radar of the Pechora Unit P-?? (Might be 25 or 35)
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/Temp/Pechora-Radar.jpg

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Re: Ground Based Radars of the IAF

Postby JCage » 13 Apr 2003 00:31

Beautiful pics Jagan-we owe you one!
A pic is worth a thousand words!

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Re: Ground Based Radars of the IAF

Postby Sanjay » 13 Apr 2003 04:05

Jagan,
They're worth more than 1000 words.

The TRU is intriguing. It isn't a TRS-2215D and it isn't a THD-1955.

Any performance details ? With those I can work backwards. Anybody have a copy of Jane's Radar and EW systems handy ?

Could it be a PSM-33 Mk.2 ?

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Re: Ground Based Radars of the IAF

Postby Cybaru » 13 Apr 2003 08:58

Sanjay,
Yes.

The TRU picture jagan posted is very similar to the one in janes for PSM (same 24 partitions) & the article also talks of help from thompson-csf in making this operational... Its an E/F and 1.8kW power range..

The STS is very interesting.. Its the same picture listed under 36D6.. THe janes is very very informative about it. Gives operational ranges in regular and harsh environment. Detection ranges of LACM's and 1m2 RCS target under different environment.

I don't want this to become a whine fest thread by critics complaining about the amout of data presented here, so if anyone wants more information, just mail me at cy_baru@yahoo.com

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Re: Ground Based Radars of the IAF

Postby Sunil » 13 Apr 2003 09:55

The P-19 looks yagi array, very similar to the t-514 in the PAF inventory.

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Re: Ground Based Radars of the IAF

Postby rajivg » 13 Apr 2003 10:20

What is the difference between an ATC radar and an AD radar in India?
The differences are the following: Civilan ATC radar is primarily surveillance radar whereas AD radar, as Jagan pointed out, is tied into anti-aircraft SAMs and used to vector interceptor fighter aircraft. Another important distinction is that many times ATC radar is not 3D and ATC relies on aircraft transponder for height information. Typically, surveillance radars will do a 360 degree scan but will use a fan beam pattern so that they can detect all targets, but they may not be able to resolve vertical seperation. AD radar will probably do some sort of volume scan, but it may be limited to certain sectors because it is difficult mechanically to do a 360 degree scan and process large amounts 3D of data at the same time. From an operational POV, ATC radar is operated and maintained by the airport authority as opposed to the armed services. This support includes: training operational personnel, logistic support, hardware and software engineering support. All of this is important because the budgeting for ATC and national defense is entirely different. A good example of cooperation between ATC and AD is in the US with the deployment long range surveillance radars. A bad example of cooperation, is again in the US, where ATC could not keep the USAF informed in real-time about terminal surveillance radar on 911. It was nobodys fault. Rest assured this has now been rectified.

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Re: Ground Based Radars of the IAF

Postby Cybaru » 13 Apr 2003 10:51

Rajendra and 3D-Car radar seem to be the way into future for the our missile forces. Something that doesn't add up are the ranges of both these beasts. I do remember the discussion that salman brought up long long ago about Rajendra being equal to 30N6 and we assumed the ranges of the 30N6 would applicable to the rajendra system as well.

The 60 km surveillance range is just humbug I think. I am totally convinced its almost 180-200 KMs.

IMO:

1. Extended Akash seems to be in works that can engage targets as far as 60 KMs away. Agreed that it is quite sometime away from making appearance in our missile armoury.

2. To be effectively able to engage a target that far under heavy active jamming conditions the radar will have to have enough power and processing capablity required to be able to reach the target 60 KM's away. Working backwards and looking at radar performaces ( lotsa interesting examples given ), for eg, a no name radar, which can track Mig-21 (4000M height) type targets in severe jamming enviroments at 57 Kms away, can track the same in a clean environment as far 140 Km's away.

Okay, I had one too many to drink, but I still think that Rajendra can engage targets as far as 90-100 Kms in a non jamming enviroment and it could probably run in survelliance mode almost twice as far. Now you only need something that can engage targets that far.

Another piece of data, which doesn't have any convoluted logic like above to follow is the marketing brochure of the new export vairants of Flap-Lid radar.


Launch data and initial guidance for the missiles is provided by a 36N85 (export designation 30N6E1) vehicle-mounted engagement radar, which has three scanning modes for engaging aircraft at ranges between 3–5km and 150km, and for engaging ballistic missiles to a maximum range of 40km. The 36N85 engagement radar can guide up to twelve 48N6 surface-to-air missiles (SAMs) to simultaneously engage up to six different targets. The engagement radar can also be mounted on the 40V6 extendable tower, for improved tracking of low-flying cruise missiles or aircraft. Additional equipment for the battery may include a survey vehicle to prepare the launch site and vehicles to transport additional missiles. Deployment time for an S-300PMU-1 battery is said to be five minutes.


BTW where is salman ?

Added later:
-------------
So I guess the 60 Kms figure is the most degraded engagement range of the radar under extremely stressful conditions..

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Re: Ground Based Radars of the IAF

Postby srai » 13 Apr 2003 11:26

On the Russian systems, milparade.com has an excellent online pdf version of the Russia's Arms 2001-2002 and Russia's Arms 2000. Other link is the Rosoboronexport.

This [ http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/Temp/Pechora-Radar.jpg ]seems to be similar in apperance to KASTA-2E1 Radar from the Military Parade's Russia's Arms 2001-2002: Part 4. Air Defense Equipment and Armament - Radars.

KASTA-2E1
PECHORA has a closer view of the [ http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/Temp/MGR.jpg ].

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Re: Ground Based Radars of the IAF

Postby Cybaru » 13 Apr 2003 12:25

Originally posted by Jagan:
Originally posted by sunil s:
[b]Jagan,

So is the MGR or the P-19 the han-han-na-na?
Sunil, Neither. I saw the HHNN only at the Pune ATC.
[/b]
HHNN ? what radar is that ?

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Re: Ground Based Radars of the IAF

Postby Shankar » 13 Apr 2003 15:17

IAF also need some state of the art missile approach warning system like EL/M-2160
which can provide reliable warning of missile attack for timely activation of chaff/flare to protect its aircraft and increase its survivability.This particular type is fully solid
state pulse doppler radar and provides accurate time to impact and direction information to enable efective response.Presently installed in F-16 C/D .C-130.
The system is adoptible to various types of airborne platforms including fighters,airkift and helos.
The main features of this air defense radar are
-detection of approaching radar in boost,sustainand post burn out phase
-all weather capability
-360 deg coverage
-accurate time to impact prediction
-short reaction time

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Re: Ground Based Radars of the IAF

Postby bhavani » 13 Apr 2003 23:39

what is a HHNN. i did not get it. what type of radars do our ATC's use. do they use the same type of radars as IAf. how do they differ. are radars used by ATC of any use during war times. will they be helpful in providing greater coverage

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Re: Ground Based Radars of the IAF

Postby Cybaru » 14 Apr 2003 11:09

Paging maz..

Why aren't we using home made rajendra radar on some of our 2000 ton frigates ? Atleast get an expirmental system with naval version of akash. There is no need for Akash to be able to get sea skimmers, but it looks pretty good for high flying targets..

Couple of things in favor of rajendra radar..

As technology improves those phased array modules will only get smaller and better in quality. As they decrease in size the power consumption will either decrease or range will increase. The processing power has increased by leaps and bounds since they were first introduced, making upgrades to the processing units for ship-borne units should be much easier as neither space nor power nor ruggedness is at such a premimum as it is in a BMP kind of environment. It will help rajendra grow into a much more mature component and will add stealthiness to our boats...

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Re: Ground Based Radars of the IAF

Postby Himanshu » 14 Apr 2003 14:16


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Re: Ground Based Radars of the IAF

Postby srai » 15 Apr 2003 02:18

Looks like some more additions/modernisation!

AMS Wins 60 million Euro Contract for Radar Systems in India

(Source: Alenia Marconi Systems; dated April 7, web-posted April 11, 2003)


AMS was recently awarded a contract, valued at over 60 million Euro, by BEL (Bharat Electronic Limited), an Indian Ministry of Defence company, to supply civilian radar systems to modernise the surveillance network across airports managed by the Indian Air Force (IAF).

AMS was awarded the contract as part of a plan to modernise the country’s airports sponsored by the Indian Government following an international call for tender in which eight different companies participated.

As traditionally occurs in the Indian market, supply operations will take the form of an industrial cooperation with BEL. Each system to be installed will feature:

**a radar head comprising of:
--an ATCR 33 S S-band solid state primary radar
--a SIR-S Mode S secondary radar
--a G 33-I integrated antenna
--a tracking processor
--one 2kx2k maintenance console

**an approach control centre comprising of:
--two 2kx2k CDS 2000 Controller Working Positions responsible for Approach Functions
--one 2kx2k CDS 2000 Controller Working Position responsible for Tower Functions.

This contract confirms and extends the excellent working relationship that has existed between AMS and the Indian Air Force for a significant period. In fact, the first contract dates back to 1971, in which AMS (formerly Selenia) worked alongside HAL (Hindustan Aeronautics Limited) to supply L-band radar and related systems.

With the announcement of this new contract, which also provides replacement of the Selenia radar supplied in the 1970s, AMS takes great pride in the fact that these radar have performed successfully for the last 30 years and that they are still in good working order.

AMS is an equal shares joint venture between FINMECCANICA of Italy and BAE Systems of the UK. AMS is a multi-national electronic systems company specialising in the design, manufacture and supply of radar and mission critical command, control and management systems to defence forces and air traffic management authorities throughout the world. It employs 7,400 people, has a turnover in excess of 1.2bn Euro with a healthy order book of 3.3bn Euro which underpins its ambitious growth plans for the next four years. AMS has an established customer base in over 130 countries.

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Re: Ground Based Radars of the IAF

Postby srai » 15 Apr 2003 02:25

Originally posted by Himanshu Chauhan:
Air Defence Networks of India and Pakistan
I believe BR has an updated article on that:

STRATEGIC AIR DEFENCES IN A NUCLEAR SOUTH ASIA

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Re: Ground Based Radars of the IAF

Postby Cybaru » 19 Apr 2003 09:10

up..

check email...

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Re: Ground Based Radars of the IAF

Postby Cybaru » 19 Apr 2003 09:20

Wasn't there news sometime back about radars working in conjunction with L40-70 guns ..

PIW 519..I band and K-band...anti aircraft weapon control system. Can control 3 medium sized guns or two guns and a missile. Manufactured under licence from signaal.

Range:20KM for 1m2 RCS target..

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Re: Ground Based Radars of the IAF

Postby bhart » 19 Apr 2003 09:48

Someone who had posted in this thread had said, that we have IRS 2015. Does anyone have any details about this system?

Secondly, regarding the MOPs, a news article one year back said that the IAF had replaced the MOPs with radars. What do they use? Indra? If anyone remembers, the IAF was very happy with the Indra system, during Ex Poorna Vijay and if I remember correctly there was some talk of placing additional orders. Any news on that?

Mr Baru, if you were asking those people who had requested you to send them some info,to check their email accounts, then I have not recieved your email. Could you send it to me again, if that is the case?

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Re: Ground Based Radars of the IAF

Postby Cybaru » 19 Apr 2003 10:53

Bharat,

resent at hotmail..

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Re: Ground Based Radars of the IAF

Postby ehsmang » 24 Apr 2003 11:42

Just wanted to know if the radars can tell which aircraft is being tracked. I mean is the radar blip for a F 16 different from that of a Mirage III ?

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Re: Ground Based Radars of the IAF

Postby Sanjay » 17 May 2003 22:40

Gentlemen,

The current BR article on air defences is a bit dated.

A more up-to-date version appeared in the I/2003 Vayu while another version focussing on Indian BMD requirements is available. If BR wants it, it's yours.

If I might add some more information:

The MOPs are unlikely to ever be fully replaced by radars as the MOPs compliment the radars. I suspect things like thermal imagers, acoustic sensors etc. may eventually find their way into the MOPs - eventually being the operative word !

As per the radars used with Bofors AAA units, a variety of types are to be found. FC seems to be provided by the Flycatcher/ PIW-519 radars ( which also seem to assist integration of Igla and Strella-10M SAMs ) while upgraded Super Fledermaus and REPORTER radars facilitate detection of targets at low altitude and at medium ranges.

Indra low-level radars were designed to fill the huge ADGES gaps in low-level coverage. Regrettably, there were some problems with it initially.

Indra-2 is a gap-filler radar designed to provide low-level detection.

A new upgrade of the Pechora squadrons and their radars is essential. That's why I wish there was more media attention on this subject.

Right now, only the BADZs are really gap-free, equipped with advanced systems and effective against even ultra-modern adversaries. In conjunction with the Pechoras, it is a formidable system. With upgrades, it will be even better.

The rest of the system has some problems. The reliance on the P-series of radars is a source for concern as they have been severely compromised.

The original plan was to replace them all with ST-68U units but this has not happened. The ST-68U form the main sensor of the BADZs and have begun overhauls in India - 3 should have been done by now as per the info. in the 2000-2001 MoD report.

The PSM-33 Mk.2 and THD-1955 radars and even the TRS-2215D radars are in need of further upgrades.

The good news is that things have started.

The IAF operates 12 THD-1955 radars and, in 2002, Thales was awarded a contract to upgrade all of them. Please refer to:

http://www.thales-communications.com/publications/view_n7.pdf

Also, India has signed a contract for at least 1 Master-T radar system ( seen above link ) and it is possible that more may have been ordered. One Aerostat is operational while many more will come.

The ADGES network, as envisaged initially, was to be far more comprehensive that that which
currently exists. Costs led to the pruning of the orignial plan.

As indicated earlier, the P-series has problems but the need for adequate radar coverage has ensured their continued employment.

Moreover, BADZ systems ( {ST-68s} which are more or less always available where needed ) aside, the transportable radars of the IAF are being deployed and redeployed quite often. This increases wear and tear on the system and is responsible for the fact that IAF SUs operate with large crews. This matter was raised recently by the Parliamentary Committee on Defence.

Now, I am sure that questions will be raised somewhere about whether all of this compromises Indian security. Let me assure everyone that everything in here and more is available through open sources.

The IAF has much to worry about and legitimate concerns about secrets being leaked.

However, the information on this thread has already been published.

The best work I've ever seen on the subject - one which is to be found extensively in the footnotes of my book and articles - is contained in Guide Publications "SP's Military Yearbook 1992-1993". There was a superb overview of the IAF AD network and an even better critique of the sensor/ communications network. Though dated, it is to be highly recommended.

Those wishing for visible indications of progress in the IAF AD management set-up could do much worse than look at Salt of the Earth and then compare the scenes in the ADCCs with those in Akaash Yodha.

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Re: Ground Based Radars of the IAF

Postby Cybaru » 17 May 2003 22:50

Sanjay,

How does one get the article ?

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Re: Ground Based Radars of the IAF

Postby Cybaru » 17 May 2003 23:00

Originally posted by Sanjay:

The rest of the system has some problems. The reliance on the P-series of radars is a source for concern as they have been severely compromised.
Are you talking about the operations in kosovo ? If not, how have they been compromised ?

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Re: Ground Based Radars of the IAF

Postby Sanjay » 17 May 2003 23:04

Cy, if one of the admins gives me some directions, BR can have it within a day.

As far as the radars go, some have been compromised since the 1973 war. Now, they have been overhauled and to some extent upgraded but that can only go so far.

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Re: Ground Based Radars of the IAF

Postby Jagan » 17 May 2003 23:35

Originally posted by Sanjay:
Cy, if one of the admins gives me some directions, BR can have it within a day.

As far as the radars go, some have been compromised since the 1973 war. Now, they have been overhauled and to some extent upgraded but that can only go so far.
Hi Sanjay,

We would be glad to have the article - and host it on BR - with due credits. do email us (iaf@bharat-rakshak.com) the piece - We will upload it and link it here for others to read it.

regards

Jagan

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Re: Ground Based Radars of the IAF

Postby Sanjay » 17 May 2003 23:41

Jagan,
Done it. Check your e-mail at the one given. Hope it's ok.

Also, I wanted to confirm that the TRU was a PSM-33. Could be initial licensed version rather than the Mk.2 which has some TRS-2215D components.

Jagan, those pics were great. You guys are doing a fantastic job in bringing the armed forces home to us. Do you know that you've posted the only high-quality ST-68 in IAF service photo that I have ever seen ?

Great pics too from Hyderabad.

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Re: Ground Based Radars of the IAF

Postby bhart » 18 May 2003 20:58

Regarding the MOPs, there was a newspaper report about 2 years ago, stating the IAF's reliance on MOPs. But, it implied that the problem had been sorted out, because it said something to the effect that IAF had resorted to this for a short while.
It was the TOI I think.

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Re: Ground Based Radars of the IAF

Postby Jagan » 18 May 2003 21:16

Hi Sanjay

I got the email - Thanks for the piece.

Cy,

SBM's article is now hosted at this url - Temporarily before I move it to the main section.

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/Temp/BMD.html

regards

Jagan

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Re: Ground Based Radars of the IAF

Postby Cybaru » 18 May 2003 21:42

Jagan - Bhai,

Thanks.. I read it.. Offbeat question.. Would it be possible for your to get your hands on the "The infantry Magazine" ?

SBM ji, thanks once more..

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Re: Ground Based Radars of the IAF

Postby Sanjay » 18 May 2003 22:02

Bharat,

The IAF will never get rid of MOPs - they are too useful. They've been using them since 1965 and they came into their own in 1971.

The low-level radars will compliment and augment the MOPs.

Would like to see the article though if it could be found.

Cy, Jagan, glad you got the BMD article. Hope it's Ok.

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Re: Ground Based Radars of the IAF

Postby Cybaru » 18 May 2003 22:25

Originally posted by Sanjay:
Gentlemen,
Also, India has signed a contract for at least 1 Master-T radar system ( seen above link ) and it is possible that more may have been ordered. One Aerostat is operational while many more will come.
Sanjay,

The pic of TRU pretty much coincides with that of PSM-33.

Where does Master-T fit into all this. IT seems to have the same range and operating band as PSM-mk2. Why have two of the same type or function ?

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Re: Ground Based Radars of the IAF

Postby Sanjay » 19 May 2003 03:01

Cy, It is a much more modern radar. Perhaps it can be used to supplement or supplant the ST-68.

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Re: Ground Based Radars of the IAF

Postby bhart » 19 May 2003 07:59

Can anyone provide the APPROXIMATE numbers of the types in service, so that one can get a general idea of the scale of the network.
Also, we keep discussing all this wrt pukeland, but what about the eastern sector? When the Purulia Drops had taken place, it was reported that the aircraft could not be detected because the IAF had removed a powerful radar from the area. If I am correct, this was the India Today magazine, and they went to the extent of saying that it was a very long ranged radar.
That's just one incident. I don't know whether there have been many other incidents like that.
I would be very grateful if someone could provide some info on the east.

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Re: Ground Based Radars of the IAF

Postby Ashutosh » 19 May 2003 09:03

Here is a nice PDF document from Thales. It talks about Indian acquisitions, and also has some pages on the Network Centric Warfare Model: http://www.thales-communications.com/publications/view_n7.pdf

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Re: Ground Based Radars of the IAF

Postby Sanjay » 19 May 2003 18:19

Bharat,
The radar was not removed - based at Kalaikunda - it was reported that it had been turned off for routine maintenence.

Don't know what is true. There are at least 2 THD-1955s in the North East. One in Bangalore at Chimmney Hills - all this is open info BTW - that is intended primarily for the training role but also carries out air surveillance.

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Re: Ground Based Radars of the IAF

Postby bhart » 19 May 2003 20:03

Sanjay, thanks a lot for the info. Another thing I wanted to ask was, that the terrain in the North East would create many 'blind' areas, would it not? So how does the IAF overcome it? More MOPs, or more radars? And then you have the Andamans. What sort of radars do we have there?

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Re: Ground Based Radars of the IAF

Postby Rudra » 19 May 2003 21:02

in upper shillong peak, next to a popular overlook
and major road there is a small IAF radar station.
Consisted of 2 concrete towers having domes on top.
the domes protect the radars within.

no idea what radars are used, but the terrain of
meghalaya ensures small a/c can just fly down
the valleys and lose themselves in ground clutter.

To cover Bdesh we need a couple of big radars on
Meghalaya hills just at the point where they start
sloping down into the Bdesh plains below.

again, no idea if we have anything there-probably
not given the low aerial threat perception.

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Re: Ground Based Radars of the IAF

Postby Cybaru » 19 May 2003 21:03

Are the b'deshi's still flying thier Mig's ? Were they not trying to get rid of them ?

Maybe an older long range radar and be relocated to cover the banladeshi sector ?

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Re: Ground Based Radars of the IAF

Postby Sribabu » 19 May 2003 21:04

For the north east, having RADARs with doppler mode will be ideal to get rid of the ground clutter. I don't know if such surveillance radars exist in the Indian inventory.

Sri

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Re: Ground Based Radars of the IAF

Postby Vick » 19 May 2003 23:38

Defense News

May 16, 2003

India Looks Abroad for L-70 Upgrades

By VIVEK RAGHUVANSHI, NEW DELHI

The Indian Ministry of Defence will turn to overseas defense firms in its quest to upgrade anti-aircraft guns for the Army.

The service early this year rejected a proposal from Bharat Electronics Ltd., Bangalore, and the Ordnance Factory Board, Calcutta, both state-owned, to upgrade more than 800 40mm L-70 guns, a senior Army official said.

The Army has asked the Defence Ministry to invite foreign defense firms to bid, the official said. The ministry will award a contract by the end of this year, a ministry official said May 13.

In the first phase of the $200 million program, 436 L-70 guns will be upgraded at an estimated cost of $250,000 per gun within two years, said the official. The remaining guns would be done in phase two, and will take another two years.


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