Second Agni-III test -1

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Postby Austin » 09 Apr 2007 16:34

Oh my concern was only about the Drag part , But as you said it Range wins and some what is paramount for us over other thing

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Postby Gerard » 09 Apr 2007 18:37

5500km with 1500kg payload..

What are possible payload configurations for a non-MIRV A3 that could give a 1500 kg payload?
Does 1500 kg make sense without MIRV?
Or is this just obfuscation to pacify Unkil?

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Postby Gerard » 09 Apr 2007 19:24

BTW, the Agni-4 likely configuration image on the web page is an older Agni-3 image (has 1.8m diameter, 2 stages etc).

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Postby Arun_S » 09 Apr 2007 20:17

I only updated one image on the page. I have almost completed updates to the page but awaiting the test to get final snippets (launch date etc) in and then release it.

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Postby Omar » 09 Apr 2007 21:17

I do get disconcerted when I see the media announcing future tests of Agni III etc as though they are public rallies....Should there not be more secrecy, with the test being reported only after it happens successfully ? moreover, wont this irresponsibility of the media aid any elements that may want to subvert the test /track the test ? sometimes i feel that the media ought to be muzzled....


News of the upcoming missile test outside BR has not received much scrutiny. Only here do we start to calculate the change it could have on India's strategic calculus, before the test happens. First let the test happen successfully, go through numerous field trials, induct the missile, and THEN get excited. A Google news search of 'Agni III' reveals outside India, only Pakistani and Australian news sites have carried the story. Furthermore its hardly even ranked among top stories by readership within India.

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Postby Vivek K » 09 Apr 2007 21:32

Omar, we on BR discuss things/topics of itnerest to US - not to others. So if we are different, why does it matter?

BR standard response - we are j-i-n-g-o-e-s! We are like this onleee!!! :D

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Postby Gerard » 09 Apr 2007 22:26

Agni-III, India's long range ballistic missile, gears up for tests
At 3,000 km, the Agni-III, cannot be classified as an intercontinental ballistic missile (ICBM), however, for that involves covering distances of more than 5,000 km.
:)

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Postby rsingh » 10 Apr 2007 02:38

Ruskie on Agni 3

The developers estimate range missiles in the three thousand kilometres, but defense experts believe that the solid-propellant motor "Agni-3" can deliver a warhead to a distance of five thousand kilometres.


Japanese on Aguni 3 :lol:

Image


[url=http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=ko&u=http://blog.joins.com/media/folderListSlide.asp%3Fuid%3Dhhhhh1223%26folder%3D4%26list_id%3D7587221&sa=X&oi=translate&resnum=7&ct=result&prev=/search%3Fq%3D%25EC%259D%25B8%25EB%258F%2584%2B%25EB%25AF%25B8%25EC%2582%25AC%25EC%259D%25BC%26hl%3Den%26rls%3DGGGL,GGGL:2006-43,GGGL:en%26sa%3DG]Koreans on Agni 3.......note that India=Humanity in Korean.....what a compliment
[/url]

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Postby Omar » 10 Apr 2007 07:52

rsingh,

Thank you for pointing out the Agni-3 launch story covered in other languages. My point still stands we should not be worried about the media's inquisitiveness and the directives of national security. It still took a couple of days for the global media to catch wind of the launch. The story was first run by Indian publications, then Pakistani, then Australian, and now Russians before reaching AFP (where the Japanese took the story from). The day the launch occurs I guarantee there will be HUGE hooplah, but until then its sort of a minor story. This exercise has nonetheless shown how the military needs to be VERY careful before announcing any major development due to the pace at which news develops and spreads.

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Postby Shankar » 10 Apr 2007 11:13

Nothing wrong in world knowing our capability -it is a part of the deterrence game.Like they say it is not what you have that matters but what others think you have that counts.

Ruskies for one dont need a news paper report to know the range of agni 3++ now under final pre launch count down in orissa,they know it years back .They happen to have a very extensive intel network in India obviously .Japs knew about it too from their CIA friends

What is important is the world is watching with some apprhension the emergence of India as a global military player .An ICBM is a as we all know the true currency of power in the world market

So the final speculation on agni 3 before launch -this time likely to be a huge huge success

This is no IRBM or even MRBM it is in my opinion the first test of indian ICBM capable of reaching any part of the globe with somewhat reduced but still very effective thermo nuke tip

Tomorrow hope fully will clear many doubts

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Postby rsingh » 10 Apr 2007 12:14

Omar....I agree with you and not long ago I posted on over-open nature of ISRO launches. Papers over-hype things and when something happens during launch.........it hurts. Having said that I would like to point out that "nobody is sure what is going to be tested :lol: .......there is so much confusion in different briefings and press-releases, that we are not even sure about diameter or range. It intentional or a result of chalta hai attitude........it suits us :P .
On other hand Shanker is right. If we are confident about it , then what's the problem. As a tailor told to my GF " if you have it......why not so show it" when she made fuss over very low V-cut in the party dress :lol:

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Postby Arun_S » 10 Apr 2007 12:35

People who matter have a better appreciation of the impressive assets behind the bikini (that reveals all but the most secret aspects) rather than a repainted green hijda (impotent) in a Burqa. Yikes.

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Postby Singha » 10 Apr 2007 13:27

imho it was better to launch first , see if it was a success then begin the media psyops. this was the ddm clowns dont get leverage.

full spec range tests going over antarctica to land in the middle of south atlantic are obviously a must to prove its reach. NPOL oceanographic ship accompanied by a corvette can pick up debris.

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Postby Philip » 10 Apr 2007 13:33

I feel that the Agni-3 range is being deliberately kept low because of that "
Great Satan",Uncle Sam.Many moons ago a person who claimed to be in the in the know of things,told me that the US had threatened India with dire consequences if we tested an ICBM.This was why there was an "all quiet on the test front" for some time.The well known secret of Indian politicos,that they have no cojones,but the guile of old men,has resulted in our fear of testing ,and when we finally overcome our fears-or dire neccessity (Pak and China) drives us to test,we try and dsguise the truth about it!

Whatever the range of Agni-3,the crying need for an Indian ICBM especially in the context of the US's adventurous neo-imperialist catastrophes and the ambitions of China and its vassal states,has never been more urgent.We have lost enough of time with pussyfooting with our delivery systems.Pak has made huge progress with its own versions of Middle Kingdom missiles and Kimchi Ding-Dongs.An ICBM aboard an Indian nuclear sub is the highest priority for the armed forces,as it is the only guarantee of a survivable second strike capability.

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Postby Shankar » 10 Apr 2007 14:18

Having our own ICBM is no longer a matter of choice but a dire necessity.The first test did not do well but very rarely anywhere in the world such a new design is first time success-only the failures are hidden well -we did not that is our strenght and confidence in our capability that we can do it right most likely second time if not third time but get it right surely we would in not so distant future , Hopefully tomorrow.

Let 123 agreement go down the drain -it will not matter .No one could stop our space program ,though they tried very hard .They are tryng hard now again to stop our nuke programe and failing .Tomorrow will hopefully prove how impotent they really are when faced with a determined resurgent nation

Like they say -we do not have any territorial ambition nor we ever try to dominate the world to ensure our materialistic quality of life - but surely we are no ones door mat to be pushed and stepped on . The recommencement of commercial negotiation of iran gas pipeline is just the appetizer ,launching of other countries sats from sri harikota the first course ,refusal of cannot be refused offer on MRCA deal will be the follow on course and tomorrows test will be first premium on national insurance against some thing like Iraq

1962 is history -and we have learn t from the history

Their lies the true value of tomorrows test -assertion of indian strategic independence

Lets all hope it is a stupendous success

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Postby Singha » 10 Apr 2007 15:07

http://sev.prnewswire.com/aerospace-def ... 007-1.html

WASHINGTON, April 6 /PRNewswire-USNewswire/ -- Secret new U. S. intelligence about China proves the Chinese are accelerating the test of new medium and long range ballistic missiles, reports AVIATION WEEK, which broke the story on its website, AviationWeek.com, today. The complete story will appear in the April 9 issue of Aviation Week & Space Technology (AW&ST).

In the story, AVIATION WEEK also reports that China is demonstrating a wide range of new tactics with those missiles. The new Chinese missile development could affect Taiwan and U. S. strategy toward China, especially if China were ever to attack Taiwan. The Chinese tests indicate that China is gaining a much more powerful ability to militarily deter the U.S. or attack U.S. soil or assets such as aircraft carriers at sea.

Much of this information comes from several U.S. Air Force Defense Support Program (DSP) missile warning spacecraft watching China from geostationary orbit, 22,300 miles above the Earth. The April 9 issue of AW&ST will carry an exclusive report about how the DSP constellation of missile warning satellites monitors not only China, but also Iran, North Korea and other countries. The same spacecraft are also seeing a similar acceleration of Iranian ballistic missile test activity.

The story quotes Dr. Edward Tagliaferri, a longtime independent consultant to the Air Force and Northrop Grumman on use of the spacecraft, as saying, "Both the Chinese and Iranians have very vigorous test programs. The number of (ballistic missile launch) events we are seeing with DSP are increasing."

"China's missile testing is surpassing anything since the Soviet Union's missile buildup of the 1960s," John Pike, director of Globalsecurity.org, says in the Aviation Week report. "It is as if China was in near war-time production of missiles ... in what amounts to the largest missile production and test rate seen since the Cold War with the Soviet Union," Pike says.

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Postby Singha » 10 Apr 2007 15:11

Link
{Mercy be on readers. I have shortened the long URL.: Arun_S ;) }

China is testing ballistic missiles as often as once a week, Pike notes. DSP managers say the exact numbers are classified, but that the activity in China and Iran is frequent and growing.

U.S. intelligence agencies say that by 2010, China's strategic nuclear forces will likely comprise a combination of four enhanced ICBM systems including the impressive new solid-fueled, road-mobile DF-31 ICBMs (see photo, p. 48).

Its strategic nuclear force will also include the new submarine-launched ballistic missiles fired from their new Type 094 ballistic missile submarines, now undergoing tests at sea. DSP spacecraft have been monitoring the trial of all these systems. The spacecraft and other intelligence data also indicate that China will deploy several new conventional and nuclear armed variants of these MRBMs and intermediate-range ballistic missiles (IRBMs) for "regional contingencies"--meaning Taiwan and Japan. Conventionally armed IRBMs or ICBMs raise new strategic issues and threats.

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Postby Gaurav_S » 10 Apr 2007 17:14

Looking at how two Asian countries are transforming itself it is quite likely that India and China develops bitter relations due to conflict of interest down the line in future (perhaps due to Pakis)

It would be just awful mistake to even think China not attacking on India again. Chicoms are doing a lot under cover in terms of military power and their reach to deter any nation like US.

Agni III and its successors will be very powerful toy to prevent any misadventures from Chicoms.

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Postby Austin » 10 Apr 2007 17:47

Singha wrote:full spec range tests going over antarctica to land in the middle of south atlantic are obviously a must to prove its reach. NPOL oceanographic ship accompanied by a corvette can pick up debris.


Singha one can achieve the same by testing the A-3 in less Energy Effecient Depressed Trajectory , Generally you achieve a substantial increase in range which is what generally ICBM's do by fying in the most Energy Effecient Trejetory or the so called Minimum Energy Trajectory

The New RV designed to withstand temp of 6000*C has one more advantage that I can think of , One can fly the Agni-3 in an all out Depressed Trajectory , Though this may cut down its range substantially , It also gives you a substantial short time of flight for those ranges compared to flying in a MET , and with its MaRV capability the new RV with its light payload can be effectively used to evade the most sophisticated ABM system specially the space based one as they are not effective in dense atmosphere and can then re-enter into a more steeper trajectory , with the accuracy the new Manouvering RV has , it can be used to accuratly target ICBM silos & Deeply Burried C & C centres

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Postby Arun_S » 10 Apr 2007 20:30

Depressed trajectory for shorter range targets is certainly most desireable but also more difficult. & maneuvering RV's are necessary for that.

Anti-ABM capabeility will continue to be a evolving battle of wits (much like Radars/ECM/ECCM/ESM cat fight)

Austin: Atmospheric travel is very short fraction of travel time. The scenario that you mention is for reletively short range.

This Agni test with longer reach bigger motor is certainly a vital qunatum jump, the other quantum jump in its own right is the new RV. That will tell its own seperate story and potency.

JMT.

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Postby Austin » 10 Apr 2007 21:01

Arun I was under the impression that Depressed Trajectory makes most of its flight through the atmosphere ( under 100 Km altitude ) and hence experience tremendious drag and requires MaRV.

Short range yes but what I was thinking was when we see an SLBM based on Agni ( or firing A 3 against China , though yes its not needed ) , But if our Boys are as close as 3000 Km away from mainland coast then firing DT is the best way to defeat any kind of anti-BM system and get the shortest time to reach the target.

if I am not wrong at one point of Time US was infact proposing a ban for DT for SLBM because it was considered destabilising and too dangerous

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Postby Arun_S » 10 Apr 2007 21:24

Sure for shorter range depressed is good. But below 100 km I am very doubtful.

What you may be referring to is a trick only a full range ICBMs (that can launch the payload to low earth orbit) can do.

In that scenario the ICBM fires the missile not in most efficient ballistic trajectory but puts the payload in low earth orbit (~90-120 Km altitude) {recall I am saying orbit, I.e. speed is 7.7Km/sec), and later the MIRV bus decelerates it just enough and release RV's so that RV re-enter atmosphere (at very shallow angle). the RV trajectory then is much like SRE/space module re-entry and largely ballistic in nature (add drag after 30Km altitude).

One can apply similar variation to non full range ICBM's too, understanding the range potential will be clipped.

And yes that weapon then is very potent and destabilizing.

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Postby ramana » 10 Apr 2007 21:53

Testing is not like that. There are only two tests for the RV- one trajectory that imposes maximum aero loads to proof the structural integrity- make sure no in flight break up and the other that imposes maximum heating to proof the thermal barrier materials. All others are variation of these two tests. Need two more to proof the V-gamma map. So minimum of four tests for development are needed. Others demonstrate reliability vagehra.

The launch vehicle takes the RV to sub-orbital velocity which is a measure of the energy available for range. The orbital path is an ellipse with one of the foci the center of the earth and the other the launch point. There are infinite ellipses that can be drawn based on this and these cover the gamut of ranges. For that energy level there are infinite ellipses that can be drawn for that sub-orbital velocity. IOW a short range flight also proofs the long range flight.

What the outside observers want is radar signatures and other data for their own use.
Last edited by ramana on 10 Apr 2007 22:16, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Austin » 10 Apr 2007 22:12

Thanks Ramana for the insight , Arun check mail

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Postby Gerard » 11 Apr 2007 00:14

India to test long-range missile this week
The test will be the latest in a series of recent missile tests by India and its rival, Pakistan, and is in keeping with a pattern of tit-for-tat launches by the two nuclear-capable neighbors. Pakistan sent up a Hatf-II surface-to-surface vehicle at the end of March.
The Harf-III is capable of carrying nuclear weapons; however it is considered a short-range missile with a range of about 125 miles. The Agni-III is a long-range asset that has a stated range of 3,000 kilometer (1,864 miles) that could be extended to 5,000 kilometers (3,106 miles), defense experts told PTI.
The Agni-III underwent a failed test launch last summer, but has been successfully tested once since that time.

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Postby vsudhir » 11 Apr 2007 00:16

Quote:
The Agni-III underwent a failed test launch last summer, but has been successfully tested once since that time.


When did this successful test happen? How did I miss it? Is it true?

Anyone?

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Postby marimuthu » 11 Apr 2007 00:17

Gerard wrote:The Agni-III underwent a failed test launch last summer, but has been successfully tested once since that time.


When did this happened? :shock: :lol:

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Postby Gerard » 11 Apr 2007 00:23

In the fertile mind of the reporter.
A "tit for tat" for some nodong launch by TSP.

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Postby Shankar » 11 Apr 2007 00:48

My reading is the agni 3 will be launched in a "lofted trajectory" not a depressed trajectory as speculated . By launching the missile at a more vertical launch angle say 60-70 degree rather than 45 degree which would be used for max range launch the total energy available during launch is more easily demonstrated and for a longer range target the launch angle can be changed

Making the RV and missile fly all thru dense atmosphere to validated range and energy availability may not be a sound idea .Since this is the first effective launch recovering the RV is important .So in all probability it will be flown over Bay of bengal in a lofted trajectory and made to crash in a target some where in andamans and this way it can be tracked all the way.Since very few will know the actual dummy payload used monitoring the trajectory will not confirm or deny the actual capability of the missile to an outsider.

Full range test will come later and then again the actual payload mass will be a closely guarded secret so the actual flight range maximum with a 300 odd kg payload will be difficult to know

We shall know it only when some one challenges us on nuclear terms

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Postby mandrake » 11 Apr 2007 01:13

11th April, 2007.

1 - Stands for the number of Sun in Hindu numerology :twisted:

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Postby Rahul Shukla » 11 Apr 2007 10:39

Whats the prize for the newbie/jingo that breaks the good news first? :)

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Postby krishnan » 11 Apr 2007 10:48

What good news?

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Postby sanjchopra » 11 Apr 2007 10:51

Waiting eagerly for the good news.. :)

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Postby Austin » 11 Apr 2007 10:52

Rahul Shukla wrote:Whats the prize for the newbie/jingo that breaks the good news first? :)


For the newbie Parle Poppins :twisted:
For the Oldies Treat at Gaylord Restaurant
Last edited by Austin on 11 Apr 2007 10:52, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Rahul Shukla » 11 Apr 2007 10:52

A3 sucessfully test fired? I mean official news Krishnan saa'r.

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Postby krishnan » 11 Apr 2007 10:55

Hmmmmm , Yep , maybe on of those awards that Jagan gives

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Postby Nalla Baalu » 11 Apr 2007 10:58

Where are my poppins from last fall, when I first posted the news report about possible test firing of prithvi in air-defence mode?

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Postby krishnan » 11 Apr 2007 11:11

austin ate them :P

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Postby Shankar » 11 Apr 2007 12:55

A nice write up on ICBMand reentry vehicle -for those of you who are new to BR -hope you find this informative on the eve of agni 3 launch

[quote]A “ballistic missileâ€

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Postby Arun_S » 11 Apr 2007 13:23

Boss I am going to take a nap. Will be back when sleep ends.

The roar of Agni will enlighten the world.

Om Shanti Shanti Shantihi.

Jai Hind.


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