Second Agni-III test-2

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Vipul
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Post by Vipul »

kmc_chacko wrote:Increasing India's missile reach
http://www.hindu.com/2007/04/14/stories ... 271000.htm[/url]
N Ram is working overtime for his Paki masters.He is giving credit to pakistan for developing Shaheen class of missiles "indigenously" when its Chinese and Korean lineage is well established.The B*****d. :x
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Post by Singha »

Austin , thats why this test was off a _railway_ TEL . given the nature of our terrain, sub standard village roads and lack of a unpopulated den like Siberia, rail is perhaps the way to go.
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Post by Gerard »

shyamd wrote:Image
:eek:

I just realized the surroundings. A model, or the real thing? First stage looks too short.
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Post by Gerard »

There have been several reports that the Project Seabird naval base will include silos.
DRDO chief pretty much ruled that out because of vulnerability.

However even the Russians are emplacing some of their Topol-Ms in silos.
With some there and the rest on the road TELs, and the Bulavas in their SSBNs, an attack on the more vulnerable silos will result in their dispersed siblings responding.

The garages the Russians use to garrison their Topol-M TEL vehicles all have sliding roofs. I've seen video clips where they open the garage roof and the missile is erected for firing.
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Post by Singha »

and in typical 2dapoint Rus fashion they just throw the missile cap on floor prior to launch. LM would spend $1b on a camera shutter type system.
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Post by Gerard »

kmc_chacko wrote:Why Indian R&D organisations make overweight equipements ?
Arjun 55+tons now Agni III 45+ tones compared to ther having around 30+ with more range :oops: . Will DRDO scale down the size so that they can be moved quickly
Lookup the weight of a modern MBT like the M1A2 Abrams. It is heavier that the Arjun.

But hey, the laws of nature and economics are different in India. A tank that works well all over the world would be overweight in India. Coca Cola has operated bottling plants all over the world for a half century without problems. But in India bottling plants deplete groundwater and introduce pesticides. Many countries have SEZs and they benefit from the employment generated. But in India, SEZs make farm hands poor.

The silo and rail mobile MX missile weighs 88 tons. The Yankee man has no trouble with this.
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Post by Raj Malhotra »

I think that the reference to another strategic system may be Sub launched SRBM. If we remember the initial reports talked about a 600km range Dhanush which could be the said missile. Its dimensions have to be small to fit into VLS of ATV which is a relatively smaller boat. As India goes in for bigger nuke subs then the variants of Agni-3 may be used. This could also be the reason of navy trying to get turbofan powered long range cruise missile to be have a nuke role (??)
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Post by Singha »

aye, the LA 688I class is 6200 empty, 6900 submerged, 100mts long, 10 mts outer hull , 13 officers, 116 crew.....we can expect ATV of this format if reports be true.

which means if u include the double hull at top and bottom plus the protective cap in the silo, our initial weapon cant be more than 8.5 mts long max...prolly just 8 mts.

Prithvi is 8.5 mts long and 1 m wide and so is Dhanush

the victor class sub, precursor to Akula on which our ATV is supposed to
be based also matches this size
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victor_class_submarine

a Agni-III-SLBM will need a much larger SSBN of approx 14 meters diameter and 4 mts humback section behind the sail....weighing around 10K-12K tons surely.
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Post by Austin »

Arun agree on the vulnerability part , But having few dispersed silos at Isolated location could act as the visible deterrence part , Though most should be on mobile platform. The mobile platform would always try to be as discrete as possible .

Singha you are right indeed , Infact all the agni launches have shown the rail mobile lunchers , and the few road mobile system shown can hardly be termed as TEL.

The Ruskies can afford to have Silos because of the EW system .
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Post by Gerard »

With the Indian railways triple stacking cargo containers now, there should be ample opportunity for disguising the A3 TEL carriage
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Post by Shankar »

I think indian ICBMs (just refuse to accept agni 3 and later versions as IRBM
no matter how many DDMs and govt spokes persons say so) will use a combination of fixed silos and railroad system to avoid detection and dispersal. We most likely have a large number of fixed silos dug into mountain sides all over the country close to existing rail network. If we have 75 agni 3 number of silos may be close to 500 and atleast 25 shall be moving at any time in the less used but broad guage railway network . The protection of the fixed silos afforded by covering mountain side will make them almost impervious to a near miss nuclear strike and allow a quick response having the advantage of pre surveyed launch site

Carrying all the missile inventory on rail road is not practical from security as well as secrecy point of view.Over a period of time these "special coaches" will be noticed and marked and that will make them vulnerable to preemptive strike,sabotage etc.

US cancleed the MX programme most likely because of this problem and now rely mostly on older proven silo based minuteman 3 for land based leg of traid
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Post by JCage »

Lalooji may squeeze a few bucks etc by fitting in a dozen people in the Agni TEL as well. :-?
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Post by Gerard »

Shankar, what you describe aren't really silos. They are shelter-garages for hiding the TELs. This is what Israel does for its Jericho missiles. The TELs aren't dispersed though. The Zacariah missile base simply has shelters carved into its hills.

The rail version of the MX Peacekeeper was never produced. It ended up strictly silo based. An awesome weapon nevertherless.
The USAF first proposed the "MPS" (Mobile Protective Shelters) plan in which 200 MX missiles would be shuttled around 4600 non-hardened shelters. The non occupied shelters would have dummy missiles making it difficult to determine which ones to strike.
The alternative "Racetrack" plan would have had the missiles being carried in a huge underground railway network.
There was the "Dense pack" option where a smaller number of hardened shelters would be used, close together, relying on the fratricide of nearby warhead bursts to shield the missiles.
None of these were affordable and the MX was nearly canceled due to lack of a mobile option. Finally they just put them in Minuteman missile silos.
The last attempt was the "Rail Garrison" plan. 50 missiles would be based on 25 USAF trains, each having two locomotives, two missile cars, and launch control, security and fuel cars.

A combination of shelters located in military bases (both hard ones tunneled into hills and soft garages) and mobile rail garrisons might be ideal in the Indian scenario. The missiles could be quickly moved out of the shelters, onto the Indian rail network, negating the temptation of a first strike during periods of tension, yet be ready to fire in minutes. Security plus mobility.

Plus some SSBNs (3-4) prowling the Indian ocean.
Last edited by Gerard on 14 Apr 2007 23:12, edited 4 times in total.
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Post by Vipul »

JCage wrote:Lalooji may squeeze a few bucks etc by fitting in a dozen people in the Agni TEL as well. :-?


:D
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Post by Arun_S »

JCage wrote:Lalooji may squeeze a few bucks etc by fitting in a dozen people in the Agni TEL as well. :-?
But also Laloo ji will negotiate its way to ride on Chini Gadha and put Topi on Chahcha. A true son of soil that is not beholden to tow a western line. He will be a nightmare to those who are trying to run India now. For him me First, Bihar First and India First, and the rest of world is cleaning tissue to wipe his musharraf.
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Post by Gerard »

so would indicate the two garuda planes saw the flaming RV very high above them against the deep blue sky reentering the atmosphere perhaps around 200K-300K ft AGL
From reports it doesn't seem they were anywhere near. They were chased away from Indian airspace by ATC when they ignored the NOTAM.

Agni-III test: Jakarta ATC was informed
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Post by mandrake »

Arun ji, Is it possible Agni's RV to contain some sort of air independent propulsion? :D
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Post by ramana »

joey wrote:Arun ji, Is it possible Agni's RV to contain some sort of air independent propulsion? :D
I don't know why you have the smiley. All Agni RVs have the HAE-high Altitude Engine for velocity correction. Its not any aha! moment. From day 1 the Agni RV had the HAE. Please read the BR webpages .
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Post by Shankar »

Joey -all rocket propellant combinations are so called "air independent" that is dont need oxygen from atmosphere for combustion .The oxygen is present in chemical bonded form in the high energy propellant like ammonium perchlorate . After all along most of the flight path of a missile the air is too thin and carry only minuscule amount of oxygen much much less than required for burning any fuel .

Only cryogenic and semi cryo engines carry oxygen in liquid form as oxidiser
and hydrogen/kerosene as fuel separately but even they dont depend on atmospheric oxygen for combustion so are as you say"air independent"
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Post by Gerard »

I think he wants a submarine.

Don't worry, Indian Navy is very supportive of swadeshi efforts.
It is the GSQR from IA that you need to worry about. They will want the A3 to launch from the TEL while it is moving along the tracks. And to have 10 MIRVs because they saw that in a brochure.
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Post by Arun_S »

Gerard wrote:I think he wants a submarine.

Don't worry, Indian Navy is very supportive of swadeshi efforts.
It is the GSQR from IA that you need to worry about. They will want the A3 to launch from the TEL while it is moving along the tracks. And to have 10 MIRVs because they saw that in a brochure.
So very true with many in the officer corp in all 3 of 4 services. The 4th service (Paramilitary) is low on totem pole and gets no firangi maal, so they dont foolishly jump at glimpse of illusory firgani moon.
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Post by mandrake »

ramana wrote:
joey wrote:Arun ji, Is it possible Agni's RV to contain some sort of air independent propulsion? :D
I don't know why you have the smiley. All Agni RVs have the HAE-high Altitude Engine for velocity correction. Its not any aha! moment. From day 1 the Agni RV had the HAE. Please read the BR webpages .
Ramana what I meant is a Scramjet engine with a lower body intake type design for speeds upto mach 20, surely SM2 killer :twisted:

A topol M report i read states this,
"According to independent Russian sources, the Topol was carrying an experimental warhead equipped with its own rocket thrusters and, possibly, with some sort of air-breathing engine. Such a propulsion system reportedly enables the vehicle to conduct multiple entries into the Earth atmosphere (like a stone ricocheting at the surface of water) and/or enables a powered flight in the atmosphere. Maneuverability of the warhead, along with a lower then traditional trajectory, reportedly makes it more difficult for a potential missile-defense system to track and intercept an incoming reentry vehicle."
I'm talking about that kind of air breathing engine, since this is the RV MK3.
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Post by Sparsh »

Gerard,
I just realized the surroundings. A model, or the real thing? First stage looks too short.
What is the excitement all about? The Wheeler Island launch pad is surrounded by a dense thicket of trees. Thats all you are seeing in the picture. The first stage is partly masked by the trees and so appears short.

JCage,
Lalooji may squeeze a few bucks etc by fitting in a dozen people in the Agni TEL as well.
Whats wrong with Lalooji and the IR making a few extra bucks by charging premium prices for a totally Dr. Strangelove-ishtyle ride on an Agni? :mrgreen:
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Post by Nalla Baalu »

Is there a quick fix for a jingo afflicted with chronic brochuritis?
joey wrote:Ramana what I meant is a Scramjet engine with a lower body intake type design for speeds upto mach 20, surely SM2 killer :twisted:

A topol M report i read states this...air-breathing engine

I'm talking about that kind of air breathing engine, since this is the RV MK3.
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Post by Gerard »

Yes there is...

alright jingos.. here is a toy for you

http://www.agi.com/resources/models/details.cfm?i=2984

Image
Last edited by Gerard on 15 Apr 2007 03:47, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by mandrake »

Nalla Baalu wrote:Is there a quick fix for a jingo afflicted with chronic brochuritis?
joey wrote:Ramana what I meant is a Scramjet engine with a lower body intake type design for speeds upto mach 20, surely SM2 killer :twisted:

A topol M report i read states this...air-breathing engine

I'm talking about that kind of air breathing engine, since this is the RV MK3.
lol where was I wrong? It isnt possible? or beyond present capability which one? :P sorry but do clear my curiosity.
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Post by A Sharma »

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Post by Arun_S »

joey: Please download ROCKSIM and play out your questions. You will find your answer. Try to throw the rock many ways and see how it can ricochet atmosphere (configure a stage with ISP=800 for a futuristic air breathing propulsion.


My hints are:
1. Why more propulsion when TOPOL it is full range ICBM?

2. If more travel is indeed required why not lifting body supersonic glider ? why is propulsion required.

3. Try to see through propaganda. USSR was defeated to submission in cold war because it could not muster enough resources to respond to Ronald Regan's Start War. Which was a phony Psy Op project to make USSR go on overdriven defense expenditure.

WTF that was a superduper mind game US played on USSR, and using the illusion of StarWars destroyed its enemy (Soviet Russia) to get on its knees.

Now rethink about the power of PsyOp and different ways it can applied. It is mind boggling, and it does not require spilling blood and gore. You get my point?

Mind is more powerful than weapons.
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Post by Arun_S »

SIFY: Scientists to decide on number of Agni-III tests: Antony
Saturday, 14 April , 2007, 21:22

Bangalore: Asserting that India's missile tests are meant to create adequate deterrence and not aimed against any country, Defence Minister A K Antony said scientists would decide how many more launches of the Agni-III were needed to make the missile operational.

"These kind of tests will continue," Antony told reporters after visiting Hindustan Aeronautics Limited when asked if India had the political will to proceed to the next level of missile tests.

"We will continue with these (Agni missile) tests," he emphatically said, adding they were not directed against any country but meant to create "enough deterrence".

The successful test on Thursday of the nuclear-capable Agni-III, which has the ability to hit targets 3,000 km away, showed that Indian scientists had "matured enough and whenever necessity arises, we can have missiles of whatever capacity needed for the country," he said.

Asked how many more tests of the Agni-III were required before its deployment, he said this would be decided by scientists.

India always had the political will for the tests, he said. "We do not want to exhibit it. It is already there."

Antony said, the induction of Agni-I and Agni-II missiles into the armed forces would be done in a "resonable time" and there would not be any "unnecessary delay".

The failed maiden test of Agni-III nine months ago had not deterred scientists. "The scientists have produced results. It is excellent...up to the point," he said.
The HINDU:Missile tests only to create enough deterrence: Antony
Special Correspondent

Bangalore: Reiterating that India's missile tests were meant only to create "enough deterrence" and not aimed against any country, Defence Minister A.K. Antony on Saturday said it was for Indian scientists to decide how many more launches/tests of the Agni-III long-range missile were needed before it could be operationalised.

Interacting with mediapersons after visiting the headquarters of the defence public sector enterprise Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) here, Mr. Antony said, "We will continue with these [Agni missile] tests."

The successful test on Thursday of the nuclear-capable Agni-III, which has the ability to hit targets 3,000 km away, showed that Indian scientists had "matured enough."

No unnecessary delays

If the need arose, India could have missiles of whatever capacity it required, he said. The induction of Agni-I and Agni-II missiles into the armed forces would be done within a "reasonable time," and there would not be any "unnecessary delays."

Asked about India's "threat perception," particularly from China, he said the border situation was much better now. Stressing that relations with neighbouring countries were better, he said India would initiate dialogues to find solutions to problems.

Tackling naxalism

He ruled out the "direct involvement" of the Army in tackling naxalism. Pointing out that it was not a good idea to involve the Army in such activities anywhere in the country, he said the law and order problems caused by naxal activity were a State subject. It was for the States to decide how they wished to tackle the problem. "We will of course help by way of equipment and other resources, and can also deploy paramilitary forces, but not the Army."

Mr. Antony's comments come in the wake of a number of States, including Chhattisgarh, Andhra Pradesh, Madhya Pradesh and Orissa, seeking Central help in handling the naxal situation.

On modernisation of the armed forces, he said India could not afford to ignore this, more so since countries in the region were speedily doing so. "Our intention is not one of confrontation, but at the same time we have to be eternally vigilant as far as security is concerned, and in order to safeguard the nation's unity and integrity."

Indigenisation

Modernisation had to be undertaken simultaneously with indigenisation of defence equipment. Calling for a healthy balance between defence imports and indigenously produced equipment, he said India could not in the short term depend entirely on either.

In the long run, India would have to be self-reliant in manufacture of defence equipment.

IAF requirement

On the Indian Air Force's requirement of 126 multi-role combat aircraft, he said the request for proposal (RFP), to be sent out to prospective manufacturers, was being finalised.

"New requirements which have come up are being looked into. But we are committed [to buying the 126 jets]."

Noting that the purchase of 40 Su-30 MKI fighters from Russia would fill in for the IAF's short-term requirements, Mr. Antony said additional requirements would also be met.

The Government was studying the IAF's proposal to set up an aerospace command.
The HINDU: DRDO to focus on ICBMs
Special Correspondent

Missile with 5,000 km-range will be developed

# There will be three more flights of Agni-III
# 85 per cent of the components are indigenously made

NEW DELHI: After having successfully launched the nuclear-capable intermediate range ballistic missile, Agni-III, from Wheeler Island off the coast of Orissa on Thursday, scientists at the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) have now set their sights on developing the technical capability for an inter-continental ballistic missile over the next three years.

Addressing a press conference here on Friday, Scientific Adviser to the Defence Minister S. Natarajan said scientists would now work on squeezing in a third stage into the missile system so that the range was increased from the 3,000 km plus achieved on Thursday to 5,000 km [which is the range for an ICBM] over the next three years.

Whether India should go in for the development of an ICBM or not was a political decision, he said. The DRDO would work towards the goal of having the technical capability in the next three years for a missile with a range of 5,000 km and with the same payload of 1.5 tonnes achieved on Thursday.

The scientists, he said, would work on the goal alongside efforts to validate the Agni-III missile system.

There will be three more flights of Agni-III over the next two to three years to validate the system and while working on them, scientists would seek to build upon the capability and try and achieve the capability for a range of 5,000 km with the same payload.

Programme Director of the Agni-III mission and Director of the DRDO's Advanced Systems Laboratory Avinash Chander said that most of the components of the missile were produced by private industry with a view to reducing delays.

In all, 258 firms were involved in the project. Apart from 20 laboratories, several academic institutions were also engaged in it.

He said 85 per cent of the missile components were indigenously made.

The mission, he said, had established several firsts such as flex-nozzle controls of rocket motor during the powered phase, specially developed composite propellant with high specific impulse for the rocket, guidance and control with built-in fault tolerant avionics, and the ability to withstand the severe aero-thermal environment during the re-entry phase.
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Post by mandrake »

Arun_S wrote:joey: Please download ROCKSIM and play out your questions. You will find your answer. Try to throw the rock many ways and see how it can ricochet atmosphere (configure a stage with ISP=800 for a futuristic air breathing propulsion.


My hints are:
1. Why more propulsion when TOPOL it is full range ICBM?

2. If more travel is indeed required why not lifting body supersonic glider ? why is propulsion required.

3. Try to see through propaganda. USSR was defeated to submission in cold war because it could not muster enough resources to respond to Ronald Regan's Start War. Which was a phony Psy Op project to make USSR go on overdriven defense expenditure.

WTF that was a superduper mind game US played on USSR, and using the illusion of StarWars destroyed its enemy (Soviet Russia) to get on its knees.

Now rethink about the power of PsyOp and different ways it can applied. It is mind boggling, and it does not require spilling blood and gore. You get my point?

Mind is more powerful than weapons.
Yeah got it, I just downloaded it will play with it tomorrow :)
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Post by Gerard »

Forum members may recall this article

India’s ICBM – On a “Glide Pathâ€
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Post by Vivek_A »

Can anyone explain this?
Antony said, the induction of Agni-I and Agni-II missiles into the armed forces would be done in a "resonable time" and there would not be any "unnecessary delay".
The BR missiles page says Agni 1 and 2 are operational.
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Post by Gerard »

The page also says
If the confusion regarding the range and guidance systems of the Agni-II, seem like excessive prying on the part of the overly-curious writers, the issues regarding the production of the Agni-II and its induction into the armed forces is not so easily dismissed. Prior to the first test of the Agni-II, press reports emerged of facilities being created to produce between 10 and 12 Agni-II missiles per year - a figure sometimes reported as between 12 and 18 missiles per year. However, it is entirely unclear as to whether any such production facilities have been created. Both Jaswant Singh and George Fernandes (during their tenures as Defense Minister) have claimed that the Agni-II is in production and is being inducted - apparently by the 335th Missile Group of the Regiment of Artillery. What is unclear is whether sufficient equipment and reloads exist to make 335 Missile Group operational. If production on the scale envisaged had commenced in 2001 - 2002, some 12+ launchers and 24+ missiles should exist.

However, there has been no indication either from DRDO or BDL as to whether any production on that scale is in progress.
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Post by Vick »

Just as an FYI, the IR's Arjun wagons have a 61 ton capacity.
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Post by ramana »

I wonder why there is no more speculation about Durga?

For those who don't know Durga was supposed to be an Indian vehicle with a cryogenic upper-stage conceputalized by Kalam saab.

Truly a second strike vehicle but with shakti!
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Post by Kati »

Gerard wrote:Shankar, what you describe aren't really silos. They are shelter-garages for hiding the TELs. This is what Israel does for its Jericho missiles. The TELs aren't dispersed though. The Zacariah missile base simply has shelters carved into its hills.

The rail version of the MX Peacekeeper was never produced. It ended up strictly silo based. An awesome weapon nevertherless.
The USAF first proposed the "MPS" (Mobile Protective Shelters) plan in which 200 MX missiles would be shuttled around 4600 non-hardened shelters. The non occupied shelters would have dummy missiles making it difficult to determine which ones to strike.
The alternative "Racetrack" plan would have had the missiles being carried in a huge underground railway network.
There was the "Dense pack" option where a smaller number of hardened shelters would be used, close together, relying on the fratricide of nearby warhead bursts to shield the missiles.
None of these were affordable and the MX was nearly canceled due to lack of a mobile option. Finally they just put them in Minuteman missile silos.
The last attempt was the "Rail Garrison" plan. 50 missiles would be based on 25 USAF trains, each having two locomotives, two missile cars, and launch control, security and fuel cars.

A combination of shelters located in military bases (both hard ones tunneled into hills and soft garages) and mobile rail garrisons might be ideal in the Indian scenario. The missiles could be quickly moved out of the shelters, onto the Indian rail network, negating the temptation of a first strike during periods of tension, yet be ready to fire in minutes. Security plus mobility.

Plus some SSBNs (3-4) prowling the Indian ocean.
Rail or road, in any case the mobile missiles are usually kept hidden in tunnels through mountain ranges. For tunately, India is blessed with mountain ranges all over the country - especially the helpful ones are Eastern Ghat, Western Ghat, Aravalli, Vindhya, Satpura, and the small ranges in the north-east. They provide excellent cover for the mobile launchers.
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Post by Hitesh »

Well the real reason they didn't go for mobile land based ICBMs was because they felt that the Ohio SSBMs gave a better bang for the buck. Better value and the Ohios could do more than silent patrol.

Last I heard was that US was going to retire all the Minutemans and devote its nuclear arsenal towards SSBMs and supersonic bombers that could cross the world halfway like in 2 hours or something like that.
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Post by Gerard »

Actually the USAF plans a new ICBM after 2020. This is the LBSD (Land Based Strategic Deterrent) programme. The RFI was issued in 2003.
It will probably be mobile.
Ironically, given the criticism of the SLV/Agni origins, the USAF admits their next ICBM may evolve from a new satellite launcher.
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Post by Gerard »

Editorial in the Hindustan Times

Going ballistic makes sense
Initial reports from the test site in Chandipur-on-sea in Orissa speak of remarkable circular area probable figures (that determine a missile’s strike accuracy) for Agni-III.
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Post by Austin »

ramana wrote:I wonder why there is no more speculation about Durga?

For those who don't know Durga was supposed to be an Indian vehicle with a cryogenic upper-stage conceputalized by Kalam saab.

Truly a second strike vehicle but with shakti!
Cryo upper stage ? is that a SLV or Missile , Never heard of Durga :-?
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