Agni III Test - News & Discussion-3

Locked
ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 59773
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Post by ramana »

Those payload venting pictures were released to send a message that the RV has active error correcting capability. Such an RV with even a small yield payload can take out the hardest target.
Sadler
BRFite
Posts: 256
Joined: 30 Oct 2005 10:26
Location: USA-ISRAEL

Post by Sadler »

Just curious: On File 2/157, what's the smoke below the black missile cone??

Never mind. Just saw the post above. Pretty impressive. Would i be correct in stating that India is the only "developing" country with MIRV capability?
Last edited by Sadler on 21 Apr 2007 03:01, edited 1 time in total.
sivab
BRFite
Posts: 1075
Joined: 22 Feb 2006 07:56

Post by sivab »

Sadler wrote:
Just curious: On File 2/157, what's the smoke below the black missile cone??
See ramana's post above.
prahaar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2831
Joined: 15 Oct 2005 04:14

Post by prahaar »

Sadler,
China has that capability as well. ( never mind if its AQKed )
ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 59773
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Post by ramana »

Prahaar, where have you seen the PRC stuff?AQKed from whom? India?
svinayak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 14223
Joined: 09 Feb 1999 12:31

Post by svinayak »

Uncle
vsudhir
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2173
Joined: 19 Jan 2006 03:44
Location: Dark side of the moon

Post by vsudhir »

ramana wrote:Prahaar, where have you seen the PRC stuff?AQKed from whom? India?
IIRC,

PRC AQKed W88 warhead designs from massaland using some chinese spies in Los alamos or something like that and the Clinton regime didn't pursue matters vigorously enough.

But if the question refers to RV maneuvering capabilities, dunno where PRC got rocket tech from.
vina
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6046
Joined: 11 May 2005 06:56
Location: Doing Nijikaran, Udharikaran and Baazarikaran to Commies and Assorted Leftists

Post by vina »

vsudhir wrote:PRC AQKed W88 warhead designs from massaland using some chinese spies in Los alamos or something like that and the Clinton regime didn't pursue matters vigorously enough.

But if the question refers to RV maneuvering capabilities, dunno where PRC got rocket tech from.
The rocket tech is well within PRC capabilities. They do have a satellite program as well and would have experience developing those kind of thrusters..
symontk
BRFite
Posts: 920
Joined: 01 Nov 2001 12:31
Location: Bangalore

Post by symontk »

vina wrote:
vsudhir wrote:PRC AQKed W88 warhead designs from massaland using some chinese spies in Los alamos or something like that and the Clinton regime didn't pursue matters vigorously enough.

But if the question refers to RV maneuvering capabilities, dunno where PRC got rocket tech from.
The rocket tech is well within PRC capabilities. They do have a satellite program as well and would have experience developing those kind of thrusters..
Read this

..Another Hughes Network customer is China Telecommunications Broadcast Satellite Corporation, or Chinasat. Chinasat purchased two satellites from Hughes during the 1990s, one of which crashed upon liftoff from a PRC rocket base. Chinasat is also known as yet another front company for the People's Liberation Army (PLA) and currently provides space communications for the PLA.

............
In 2002, Hughes was charged with violating 123 counts of national security violations, providing a vast array of U.S. satellite, space and missile technology directly to the PLA through front companies such as China United Telecommunications.

In fact, Hughes Network is still dealing with the same Chinese army-owned company that it was fined for breaking U.S. national security with in 2002. According to the sanction report of 2002, Hughes violated U.S. national security with China United Telecommunications Satellite Co., Ltd.

.........
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/article ... 0118.shtml
ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 59773
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Post by ramana »

Really? Sounds like the JP Morgan story.

A guy needed some money and went to see JP. He took him for a walk on Wall Street and talked about the weather and both returned. JP bid him adieu. The guy said what about the money. JP told him a lot of people must have seen you in my company. they will lend you the money.

This above three posts sound like JP story. Just because the guy is seen in big shot company doesn't mean he is a big shot.

He has to show it himself.
HariC
BRFite
Posts: 358
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Post by HariC »

Sadler wrote:
Just curious: On File 2/157, what's the smoke below the black missile cone??

Never mind. Just saw the post above. Pretty impressive. Would i be correct in stating that India is the only "developing" country with MIRV capability?
There is a possibility that the smoke ring is from the initial blast of gases that travel up along the outerskin of the missile surface?

What does the video reveal?
Arun_S
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2800
Joined: 14 Jun 2000 11:31
Location: KhyberDurra

Post by Arun_S »

HariC:Not correct. Pls read previous 30 odd posts.
Sparsh
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 78
Joined: 30 Jan 2007 12:57

Post by Sparsh »

Just throwing in my two paise,

That puff of white smoke seems to come not from the RV but from the adapter that connects the RV to the second stage.

My guess is that there are a number of small thrusters arranged all around the adapter that are perpendicular to the direction of motion and that these provide the flight control system with the necessary control mechanism to make fine velocity direction adjustments.

The puff could be a result of the thrusters firing during launch on command from the FCS to adjust the "alignment" of the missle as it is just taking off from the launch pad.
Arun_S
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2800
Joined: 14 Jun 2000 11:31
Location: KhyberDurra

Post by Arun_S »

Sparsh: Please read the first page of this thread before speculating any further.
Gerard
Forum Moderator
Posts: 8012
Joined: 15 Nov 1999 12:31

Post by Gerard »

Lots of quotes from "experts" like the Prafool and Ramdas

BMD Focus: India`s Agni-III challenge
A Sharma
BRFite
Posts: 1206
Joined: 20 May 2003 11:31

Post by A Sharma »

Sparsh
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 78
Joined: 30 Jan 2007 12:57

Post by Sparsh »

Arun,

On closer inspection and comparison with the second photo, it does seem that the puff of smoke is coming from the area joining the adapter and the RV, i.e. the base of the RV. So you are right, it does seem like the HAM is venting excess propellant.

Also, can you post a link to the video that shows the Agni doing the dog-tail wagging move to bleed energy?
Arun_S
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2800
Joined: 14 Jun 2000 11:31
Location: KhyberDurra

Post by Arun_S »

Arun_S wrote:BRs Agni Missile page is now further updated.

It has high resolution picture of Agni-3 (D1 flight) as well as updated information and diagrams.

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/MISSILES/Agni.html

Enjoy.

And please provide feedback if you find any error or problem.

Jai Hind
And this exclusive BR special high res image.
Image

For high resolution PTI image I am advised patience.
Arun_S
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2800
Joined: 14 Jun 2000 11:31
Location: KhyberDurra

Post by Arun_S »

Sparsh wrote:Arun,

On closer inspection and comparison with the second photo, it does seem that the puff of smoke is coming from the area joining the adapter and the RV, i.e. the base of the RV. So you are right, it does seem like the HAM is venting excess propellant.
You must have misread.
When or where did I say HAM is venting excess propellant?

Again read the first page of this thread for more gyan. This is cold air attitude correction thrusters designed to be used when first stage ignites. And this is no fault but serious design feature. Has deeper meaning.
Also, can you post a link to the video that shows the Agni doing the dog-tail wagging move to bleed energy?
Saw that on TV news. Not available on net.
Aditya G
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3565
Joined: 19 Feb 2002 12:31
Contact:

Post by Aditya G »

Arun_S, except for name what are the similarities between Agni-II and Agni-IIAT? Doesnt a larger diameter imply that the missile is as different as Agni-III?

Also, any relevance of 1.2m diameter motor for sub surface launched systems?
Gerard
Forum Moderator
Posts: 8012
Joined: 15 Nov 1999 12:31

Post by Gerard »

And this is no fault but serious design feature. Has deeper meaning
Correction after underwater launch?
Gerard
Forum Moderator
Posts: 8012
Joined: 15 Nov 1999 12:31

Post by Gerard »

No quote from the minister where he admitted the 100-250 kg strategic payload?
Arun_S
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2800
Joined: 14 Jun 2000 11:31
Location: KhyberDurra

Post by Arun_S »

Gerard wrote:No quote from the minister where he admitted the 100-250 kg strategic payload?
Thanks for reminding, will be corrected.
Arun_S
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2800
Joined: 14 Jun 2000 11:31
Location: KhyberDurra

Post by Arun_S »

Aditya G wrote:Arun_S, except for name what are the similarities between Agni-II and Agni-IIAT? Doesnt a larger diameter imply that the missile is as different as Agni-III?
Let the fat lady sing, and will adapt to whichever way GOI wants to classify.
Arun_S
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2800
Joined: 14 Jun 2000 11:31
Location: KhyberDurra

Post by Arun_S »

Gerard wrote:
And this is no fault but serious design feature. Has deeper meaning
Correction after underwater launch?
The evil SRDE Yindoo's forked tongue speakth (sic).... :twisted:
Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Post by Singha »

is this correct ?

HAM - high alt motor. used to decisively extend the range of the RV in space by using a liquid fuel motor, kinda essential for a MIRV bus.

Cold air attitude thruster - same kit as seen on PAD, but used to supplement
the guidance efforts of the finless A3s flex nozzle in the back to improve accuracy of tracjectory in 1st stage & 2nd stage ?

Can both be fitted ?
Hitesh
BRFite
Posts: 793
Joined: 04 Jul 1999 11:31

Post by Hitesh »

Can the Agni III have a long boost phase enough to go 12000 km with the payload reduced to 300 kg?
Shankar
BRFite
Posts: 1905
Joined: 28 Aug 2002 11:31
Location: wai -maharastra

Post by Shankar »

-extracts from an interesting article ,it some times helps to recheck on the basics

n order for a satellite to go into orbit it must accomplish two major tasks. First, the satellite must rise above the atmosphere which surrounds the Earth's surface. The atmosphere contains enough particles which slow the spacecraft preventing it from orbiting the planet. A propulsion device must strain against gravity to rise above the atmosphere. Second, the satellite must also be provided with enough horizontal velocity above the atmosphere to at least equal the local circular speed upon orbital injection otherwise it will reenter the atmosphere and burn due to friction. Both of these jobs are done by rockets.

A simple rocket is usually a tall cylinder containing propellant. Propellant always contains two items: fuel and oxidizer. Fuel is the item which b urns to provide rocket thrust. In a simple liquid rocket it is stored in its own separate fuel supply tank. To support fuel combustion the rocket also contains a source of oxygen needed after the spacecraft passes above the atmosphere and cannot collect oxygen in any form. This oxygen is in the form of an oxidizer to aid in combustion; it is stored in a container which resembles the fuel supply tank.

The contents from fuel tank and the oxidizer tank flow from their respective tanks via plumbing; valves, pipes and pumps; into an area called the combustion chamber where the oxidizer joins with the fuel to burn. This combustion causes pressure to build up within the chamber's walls; the resultant pressure, called exhaust gas, is forced through a bell-shaped nozzle at the rocket's base. The nozzle is tapered in the middle in an area called the throat to allow the exhaust gas to build up even more pressure and to increase its flow rate out into the wider portion of the nozzle. The gas goes into the wide nozzle portion very fast and produces a force called thrust.

If the thrust is greater than the rocket's weight, the craft will lift off. This principle is called the thrust-to-weight ratio which must be greater than one or the vehicle will not lift off its pad. This thrust not only overcomes the payload's mass, but also its gravitational attraction to Earth. Any additional thrust above the thrust-to-weight ratio of one causes the rocket to accelerate. The greater excess thrust means greater rocket acceleration in a unit known as g's or numbers of times the norm al acceleration due to gravity at 9.8 meters/second2. In other words, one g equals 9.8 m/s2 , two g's equal an acceleration of 19.6 m/s2, three g's equal 29.4 m/s2, etc. Weight is also measured in g's because a natural part of weight is the acceleration due to gravity. Therefore at one g a 100 pound woman weighs 100 pounds; at 2 g's she weighs 200 pounds; 3 g's she weighs 300 pounds; etc. As more fuel and oxidizer are used the rocket's weight (mass) decreases and its thrust to weight ratio increases. To maintain the same thrust with a mass reduction, the spacecraft's acceleration must increase in order to obey Newton's second law, F = ma.

The first rockets needed wings to guide or steer them into space. Engineers soon found that these wings could be ripped off the rocket's body as it approached the sound barrier. The wings were then downsized into small little winglets called guide vanes . These guide vanes steered the rocket on to its appropriate trajectory to gain altitude and to increase the vehicle's horizontal velocity. As rockets matured, the engineers found that steering could be accomplished more efficiently by including small jets instead of vanes around the base of the craft. The original Atlas rocket employed this capability. As the engineers grew cleverer they found that the same steering could be done by moving the spacecraft engines and diverting the thrust into a different direction. This was called gimbaling and is used exclusively to launch today's modern rockets.

At the top of the rocket is its business end, a hollow cone containing the spacecraft's payload. The upper stage is shaped like a cone to minimize the rocket's cross section which has to penetrate the atmosphere. This reduces the amount of energy required to push the rocket through the atmosphere into space. The nose cone protects the payload against aerodynamic wind blast which is very prevalent when a vehicle speeds through the Earth's atmosphere.

As previously stated, rocket fuel is also called propellant. Propellant includes not only a fuel which is actually burned, but also an oxidizer which supplies oxygen for the combustion process. Propellant efficiencies are measured by a term called specific impulse, Isp. This measurement determines how much thrust a propellant produces; it is a similar gauge rating such as octane is for gasoline. Isp is measured in seconds; it is the amount of time one pound of propellant produces one pound of thrust. There are two classes of propellant mixtures: liquid and solid.

Liquid propellants develop the most efficient thrusts for rocket power. There are many liquid propellant combinations which are used for rocket flight such as kerosene/liquid oxygen (LOX), alcohol/LOX, gasoline/LOX, and liquid hydrogen (LH2)/LOX. Such a propellant with the highest Isp is LH2/LOX with a 400 second rating for operation in the atmosphere and a 453 second rating in a vacuum. Another liquid fuel with a medium efficiency is Aerozine 50 (kerosene) with Nitro Tetroxide (N2O4) for an oxidizer. This propellant has an Isp of 254 seconds at sea level and a 302 second rating in a vacuum. These highly efficient fuels and oxidizers still need an ignition spark to start the combustion process.

A special liquid propellant which does not need ignition to start combustion is a fuel which ignites spontaneously when it comes into contact with its oxidizer. This type of fuel is called hypergolic. A typical hypergolic propellant combination is hydrazine (N2H4) and nitrogen tetroxide (N2O4). Most spacecraft use a monopropellant for operation; the most popular of these fuels is hydrazine which is easily stored and used on orbit for many years.

There are two important advantages of using a liquid fuel. The first is the capability to throttle the thrust. A liquid engine can start, stop, restart, or be reduced in thrust as the rocket flies. The second big advantage of liquid fuel is its increased efficiency, Isp. LH2 has a typical Isp of about 496 seconds whereas the solid fuel has a typical Isp of about 250 seconds.

The disadvantages of using liquid fuel are included in three areas. The first is the cryogenic nature of the fuel meaning it is difficult to store because of the required cold temperatures. A second disadvantage is the handling of this fuel by workers and the special precautions such as wearing heavy, insulated gloves and eye protection must be taken. A third disadvantage is that liquid fuel rocket engines are extremely complex with many moving parts including pumps, valves, lines, and chambers. Every one of these parts must work perfectly or the engine fails.

Solid propellant consists of a flammable putty or rubber which contains both the fuel and the oxidizer within this mixture. For example, the mixture in the space shuttle's solid rocket booster is a typical solid rocket fuel. The ingredients include 16% atomized aluminum powder as the fuel, 70% ammonium per chlorate as the oxidizer, a 12% polybutadiene acrylic acid acrylonitril as a binding agent, 2% epoxy for curing and extremely small traces of iron oxide to control the burn rates during flight.

The solid rocket fuel fills the inside of the rocket from its top to the bottom. In the middle of the rocket is a shaped clearing that provides combustion area and allows the mixture to burn evenly. This shape may be a circle or a star depending upon the type of thrust desired for launch. The rocket's ignition commences by shooting flames down its entire length to initiate the combustion evenly throughout the grain, another term for solid rocket propellant. As the fuel burns and its waste parts are ejected out the nozzle the propellant area grows. As the propellant area grows there is more propellant to burn which means that the rocket's thrust increases.

The advantages of the solid rocket boosters include easy handling. Once the propellant is manufactured and shipped, the technicians need no extensive protective clothing or procedures. The solid rocket fuel can be stored indefinitely in its solid state with only random inspections to insure that its seals are still functioning. In a solid rocket motor there are no moving parts which can fail just by mechanical movement. Despite of the numerous advantages of solid rocket propellant there are a number of disadvantages as well.

The biggest disadvantage of a solid rocket booster is that once it starts it is not going to be stopped. Therefore, it has no control functions such as throttles to control the burn. If thrust is to be either reduced or increased it must be done in the design of the grain. For example, the space shuttle SRBs are designed so that the burn reduces during transonic region passage also known as the maximum dynamic pressure. A second disadvantage is the low Isp rating. Solid propellant is just not efficient because it burns so quickly. A third disadvantage is that the rocket emits solid particles not only polluting the atmosphere, but once the vehicle gets into space, these particles also become solid debris, a hazard for satellites and other launchers.

Which type of rocket propellant does one choose? It depends on the mission and the type of energy required for it. If the engineer needs fast and responsive energy, a solid would probably work best, but if the scientist needs a slow, but steady launch capability then perhaps a liquid would be better. The choice depends upon the mission.
Vipul
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3727
Joined: 15 Jan 2005 03:30

Post by Vipul »

Hitesh wrote:Can the Agni III have a long boost phase enough to go 12000 km with the payload reduced to 300 kg?
Are you Hitesh aka Blademaster from the WAB Forum?
If yes, Were'nt you doubting A-3's Range and payload capabilities on that forum, waiting for it to be verified by an "expert" ?
Go through Arun_S 's various Post on BR and you will have all the info you need. 8)
rocky
BRFite
Posts: 142
Joined: 08 Mar 2006 22:52

Post by rocky »

Vipul wrote:
Hitesh wrote:Can the Agni III have a long boost phase enough to go 12000 km with the payload reduced to 300 kg?
Are you Hitesh aka Blademaster from the WAB Forum?
If yes, Were'nt you doubting A-3's Range and payload capabilities on that forum, waiting for it to be verified by an "expert" ?
Go through Arun_S 's various Post on BR and you will have all the info you need. 8)
Or even better download ROCKSIM and figure out yourself!
Hitesh
BRFite
Posts: 793
Joined: 04 Jul 1999 11:31

Post by Hitesh »

Well rocky please forgive me for my skepticism when I hear that Agni III can go 12,000km when it has not been tested that way. So forgive me if I don't fall into jingosm like you do.

Now ArunS, can you tell me whether Agni III has a boost phase long enough to make it to 12,000km?
Hitesh
BRFite
Posts: 793
Joined: 04 Jul 1999 11:31

Post by Hitesh »

Vipul wrote:
Hitesh wrote:Can the Agni III have a long boost phase enough to go 12000 km with the payload reduced to 300 kg?
Are you Hitesh aka Blademaster from the WAB Forum?
If yes, Were'nt you doubting A-3's Range and payload capabilities on that forum, waiting for it to be verified by an "expert" ?
Nothing wrong with peer review. It is the basis of all verification in science. If you can't deal with that, then you have no business criticizing me for asking verificiation.

As for the ROCKSIM, I have tried it out but I prefered to ask ArunS directly.
Last edited by Hitesh on 24 Apr 2007 07:27, edited 1 time in total.
Arun_S
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2800
Joined: 14 Jun 2000 11:31
Location: KhyberDurra

Post by Arun_S »

Hitesh wrote:Well rocky please forgive me for my skepticism when I hear that Agni III can go 12,000km when it has not been tested that way. So forgive me if I don't fall into jingosm like you do.

Now ArunS, can you tell me whether Agni III has a boost phase long enough to make it to 12,000km?
Hitesh: What does the missile range have to do with long enough boost phase? There is no hard relationship between the two.

For Agni-III pls see payload/range graphon Agni page. The 12,000Km intercept is around 460Kg payload.


Sorry but I have been keeping too busy these days.
Shankar
BRFite
Posts: 1905
Joined: 28 Aug 2002 11:31
Location: wai -maharastra

Post by Shankar »

more specifically with a 500 odd KG RV agni 3 will reach half way across the world if required when the third stage is added (not much of a problem by the way)it will carry 1500 kg MIRV to wherever for sure .

the 3500 km range is pure hog wash for the media
krishnan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 7342
Joined: 07 Oct 2005 12:58
Location: 13° 04' N , 80° 17' E

Post by krishnan »

Thanks for pointing this out.
Our correspondent has checked again and says the figure is 1,500 kg.
We have changed the report accordingly.

Best wishes,
BBC News website
Vipul
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3727
Joined: 15 Jan 2005 03:30

Post by Vipul »

Hitesh wrote:
Vipul wrote: Are you Hitesh aka Blademaster from the WAB Forum?
If yes, Were'nt you doubting A-3's Range and payload capabilities on that forum, waiting for it to be verified by an "expert" ?
Nothing wrong with peer review. It is the basis of all verification in science. If you can't deal with that, then you have no business criticizing me for asking verificiation.

As for the ROCKSIM, I have tried it out but I prefered to ask ArunS directly.
I was not criticizing just suggesting that you make good use of all numerous news reports which contains loads of info.
Anyway, is the verification enough, or are you waiting for a "Gora" to certify that the range mentioned is indeed true and the elation expressed by BR'ites is not just "Jingoism" ?
ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 59773
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Post by ramana »

krishnan wrote:
Thanks for pointing this out.
Our correspondent has checked again and says the figure is 1,500 kg.
We have changed the report accordingly.

Best wishes,
BBC News website
context?
krishnan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 7342
Joined: 07 Oct 2005 12:58
Location: 13° 04' N , 80° 17' E

Post by krishnan »

ramana wrote:
krishnan wrote:
context?
I pointed out that PSLV can launch payloads of greater than 1200 kgs
ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 59773
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Post by ramana »

But this is the Agony thread right?
Locked