Agni III Test - News & Discussion-3

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saty
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Post by saty »

Amitabh wrote: 2002: George Fernandes says Agni II is being inducted
2007: Avinash Chander says Agni II is still being inducted
Does it mean that "NO Agni II's were inducted in 2002-2003 period?

Or does it mean that X number of Agni IIs are being inducted every year in order to reach figure Y of total inductions?

Because if the second is true, what it means is that we will see Agni III starting to see service in 2009 while more Missiles are inducted every year.

Because if we take you statements at face value it means no Agni IIs are still deployed because they are still being inducted.

In which case the actual time by which Agni II will be inducted will be forever.

PS> There are estimates of 36 Agni II's being deployed on the web.
Last edited by saty on 30 Apr 2007 18:35, edited 1 time in total.
durvasa
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Post by durvasa »

Isn't there a difference being 'operational' and 'being inducted'??

SU30MKI became operational in 2004 or earlier, but it is still 'being inducted' in 2007 and will remain 'being inducted' till 2012-13 and even beyond.

IAF Jaguar is still being inducted in 2007 after many decades of being operational. Dhruv also would remain in the status 'being inducted' for at least next 25 years in its various avatars.

May be I am wrong, but I don't see any contradiction in GF and AC statements!
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Post by JCage »

[quote="Amitabh"][quote="JCage"][quote]Rahul Bhonsle, a defense analyst here and retired Army brigadier. “While the capabilities of the DRDO should have [improved] considerably from the early 1990s, the technology involved is much more complex, hence it is not envisaged that the Agni-3 missile will be operational before 2015 or so.â€
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Post by Amitabh »

durvasa wrote:Isn't there a difference being 'operational' and 'being inducted'??

SU30MKI became operational in 2004 or earlier, but it is still 'being inducted' in 2007 and will remain 'being inducted' till 2012-13 and even beyond.
You may be right. My understanding is that induction is a stage that precedes operationalisation, but I suppose it could refer to individual missiles as opposed to the entire programme.
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Post by Kanson »

[quote="negi"][quote]Rahul Bhonsle, a defense analyst here and retired Army brigadier. “While the capabilities of the DRDO should have [improved] considerably from the early 1990s, the technology involved is much more complex, hence it is not envisaged that the Agni-3 missile will be operational before 2015 or so.â€
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Post by saty »

Kanson wrote:
Using an analogy, Induction is like buying MS-Word appln. Operationalization is like attaining proficiency in usage of the software for the required needs. Like usage of Hot keys, intutive usage of its features.. etc.
Wrong analogy, induction means getting the unit ready for usage from the supplier.

Operationalization means being able to use the unit, i.e. deploy it with all necessary training.

There is ample public domain information that it has happened.

No need to split hairs and create definitions which do not exist just because some DDM article make a quote which may or may not even be accurate.
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Post by Kanson »

Why such knee-jerk reaction? Read it again, calmly.
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Post by negi »

Guys I do get your point infact had a similar pov,but was just looking out for a 'text book' definition wrt Military weapons specially strategic weapons like IRBM's/ICBM's.
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Post by Kanson »

I am afriad, whether it is possible to provide such as 'text book' definition WRT to strategic weapon. It differs from country to country and mostly kept secret.
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Post by negi »

Kanson wrote:I am afriad, whether it is possible to provide such as 'text book' definition WRT to strategic weapon. It differs from country to country and mostly kept secret.
It's perfectly all right let it be classified only,actually sought clarification because while speaking/posting on Militray topics one sometimes uses inducted/operational interchangeably ,Iow the lack of knowledge in the life cycle of a weapons development programme right from conception to operationalisation is the reason for many ambiguities.

For me seeing is believeing now that Agni-III launch has been successful and DRDO's confirmation of the same in media implies that time needed for induction and operationalisation depend only on political considerations and not technological.
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Post by Kanson »

negi wrote:
Kanson wrote:I am afriad, whether it is possible to provide such as 'text book' definition WRT to strategic weapon. It differs from country to country and mostly kept secret.
It's perfectly all right let it be classified only,actually sought clarification because while speaking/posting on Militray topics one sometimes uses inducted/operational interchangeably ,Iow the lack of knowledge in the life cycle of a weapons development programme right from conception to operationalisation is the reason for many ambiguities.
I can understand. Thats why i used an analogy.
For me seeing is believeing now that Agni-III launch has been successful and DRDO's confirmation of the same in media implies that time needed for induction and operationalisation depend only on political considerations and not technological.
A-3 tested is just a TD or a base system upon which further capabilities will be built. DRDO said there are few more test to do. After that only induction and other things can happen.
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Post by Aditya G »

Field army units are equipped with P-I, A-I and A-2 systems - the missiles are in production, inducted, deployed and operational so why the confusion? :twisted:

However which are the various missile groups and missile squadrons in army/AF respectively? Somebody please fill in the blanks:

Code: Select all

222 Missile Group - Prithvi-I
333 Missile Group - Prithvi-I
334 Missile Group - Agni-I
335 Missile Group - Agni-II 
444 Missile Group - Prithvi-I (same as 222 Missile group?)
555 Missile Group - Prithvi-I

unknown future army unit - Brahmos 

2 x IAF Missile Sqn - Prithvi-II


Pakistan Army bns are more difficult to identify. One source names "155 Composite Rocket Regiment of the 2nd Army Artillery Division at Attock" with Hatf-III missiles.
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Post by Ananth »

JCage wrote:
Saran Singh, associate professor at Jawarharlal Nehru University’s School of International Studies here, also admits that Pakistan is ahead of India in missile capabilities.
:roll: :D
Rahul Bhonsle, a defense analyst here and retired Army brigadier. “While the capabilities of the DRDO should have [improved] considerably from the early 1990s, the technology involved is much more complex, hence it is not envisaged that the Agni-3 missile will be operational before 2015 or so.â€
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Post by JCage »

negi wrote:For me seeing is believeing now that Agni-III launch has been successful and DRDO's confirmation of the same in media implies that time needed for induction and operationalisation depend only on political considerations and not technological.
Its more than that. The Army will have to raise a missile group to handle this, it will have to task manpower, the GOI will have to fund it, production of missiles, TELs, C3I and associated equipment has to take place. Before this Army has to conduct a few trials and familiarize itself. One problem pointed out to me earlier, dont know if it has changed or not, is that Army has to use existing resources for all those, since GOI has not relaxed manpower limits, so that is also a point that causes the Army to stretch itself.
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Post by mandrake »

JCage wrote:
negi wrote:For me seeing is believeing now that Agni-III launch has been successful and DRDO's confirmation of the same in media implies that time needed for induction and operationalisation depend only on political considerations and not technological.
Its more than that. The Army will have to raise a missile group to handle this, it will have to task manpower, the GOI will have to fund it, production of missiles, TELs, C3I and associated equipment has to take place. Before this Army has to conduct a few trials and familiarize itself. One problem pointed out to me earlier, dont know if it has changed or not, is that Army has to use existing resources for all those, since GOI has not relaxed manpower limits, so that is also a point that causes the Army to stretch itself.
not only that they have to appoint position of peoples , experts on who can deal with the strike package needed for maximum/minimum fallout etc etc.
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Post by Austin »

joey wrote: not only that they have to appoint position of peoples , experts on who can deal with the strike package needed for maximum/minimum fallout etc etc.
The SFC has been exclusively tasked to handle all our Nuclear Assets in all the branch of our armed force
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Post by mandrake »

A blog on Agni 3,
Claiming We stealed parts from US and puted in our missile, although someone has replied nicely all the way along ;)
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Post by shiv »

joey wrote:A blog on Agni 3,
Claiming We stealed parts from US and puted in our missile, although someone has replied nicely all the way along ;)
If he is an idiot - don't give his blog more hits by linking him off here. If we give jokers more hits from here - their prominence on Google goes up and they become famous because of BRF. Don't do that.

Let him get his fame by himself.

I have deleted the link
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Post by Arun_S »

Cross posting from missile thread:
Arun_S wrote:
Anurag wrote:Arun,

Based on your chart, the A-III with a 1500kg payload shows a range over 5,500Kms! So why the ~4850Kms conservative estimate?
Good question. If you recall the press reports all has Janus talk of a missile that weighted 47.3 tonne yet booster was only 33 tonne(30 tonne fuel) and the second stage 10 tonne (9 tonne fuel), add 1.5 tonne payload and the 44.5 tonne total does not square up with 47.3 tonne weight.

I myself have difficulty with 47.3 tonne on that small a volume that is 16.7 m tall. Thus I belive the A-3 D2 was infact only 44.5 tonne but had a 3 tonne ballast to simulate the 3'rd stage (totelling 47.3). Thus at a future stage the A-3 will be a 3 stage 47.3 tonne chariot, will still be 16.7m tall but payload section will be squashed and make room for 3rd stage (pls see A-3++ diagram on BR's Agni page.

So the BR's range-payload chart assumed a bit heavier second stage and that yield 5,500Km range for 1500 Kg payload.

Now a A3-D2 with only 2 stage has lesser propulsion thus lesser range (4850Km), but then a fully load 3 stage 47.3 tonne chariot will deliver 1.5 tonne across much greater range than 5,500Km on that chart. 8)

How does 8,000 Km sound?

SRDE Yindoo has big danda. :twisted:
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Post by Shankar »

I myself have difficulty with 47.3 tonne on that small a volume that is 16.7 m tall. Thus I belive the A-3 D2 was infact only 44.5 tonne but had a 3 tonne ballast to simulate the 3'rd stage (totelling 47.3). Thus at a future stage the A-3 will be a 3 stage 47.3 tonne chariot, will still be 16.7m tall but payload section will be squashed and make room for 3rd stage (pls see A-3++ diagram on BR's Agni page
-exactly right and that explains lot of discrepencies and unconfirmed news comming out about the test later
like
"we can sqeeze in a third stags"

" try for 8000 km"

8000 kms witjavascript:emoticon(':D')
Very Happyh 1500 kg payload suits every one fine
and if payload is 1000 kg we get 12000 km plus and that is all we need (at the moment)
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Post by abhischekcc »

OK, so the scientists go and test a 12000 km range missile while appearing to test only a 4000 km range missile.

One question nobody has asked is whether the decision to test a smaller range missile (for public consumption) was a technical decision or a political one?

That is:
A ) Did the scientists decide to put on a facade in order to hide the fact that ICBM has been tested from the Indian politicians/bureaucrats, or
B ) Did the order to do so came from the top political leadership? In which case are we telling the US that we can hit them if we choose to do so?

My (political) tea leave reading skills have not given me any direction on this :-?

Does any member have any take on this?
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Post by abhischekcc »

My question has implications about the way different sections of GOI do business with each other.

If option A is correct, then we have reason to worry because the politico-bureaucratic combine is at war with the national science establishment. Thus showing that the executive section of the GOI has turned to treason.

If option B is correct, then we have some smart ppl in the government,and we have nothing to worry about.
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Post by shiv »

Image from Frontline

Image
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Post by Shankar »

[quote]OK, so the scientists go and test a 12000 km range missile while appearing to test only a 4000 km range missile. [/quote]

Not exactly
They did it in a roundbaout way so on paper the range is 3500 km and the missile can be classed as IRBM and not ICBM

First they put a 3000 kg dead load along with 1500 kg rv so the first and second stage is pushing 4500 kg instead of 1500 kg as declared

Secondly they programme in a mad dog profile so the normal flight range even after 3000 kg undeclared dead load is squeezed further by wasting some of the propulsive energy in non unidirectional flight

Thirdly they make the missile fly an almost flat trajectory allowing it to climb only 400 km vertically rather 1700 kms plus it would normally making it fly thru much denser atmosphere wasting enrergy,reducing its flight duration of un powered phase or the gravity controlled part of the flight

In fact DRDO used every trick in the book to reduce the flight range of agni 3 -very very well but in the process also validated quite a few important design parameters

- the RV structural integrity at higher ICBM type reentry velocity 5-7 km/sec

- available thrust and propulsive energy available in the first two stages

- as every one mentioned solid motor thrust vectoring with flex nozzle

- reentry vehicle manuvering

- depressed trajectory flight for shorter range firing

- effect of a third stage on flight dynamics thru an equivalent shape and wt ballast

-closed loop guidance system for allowing the missile to fly on fire and forget mode.


These datas are already in and analysed -so the confidance about 8000 km range missle with 1500 kg payload by just adding a 3rd stage which as of today is just a formality may be the third stage is ready to be integrated going by the time frames being discussed .

The rest of the logic extending range from 8000 km to 12000+ km -you really dont have to do much just reduce the payload from 1500 to 1000 kg and the same missile will do the rest of the job without problem

After all even agni 3 have to obey the laws of physics
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Post by MN Kumar »

Arun's IDR article is online now.
Strategic Missiles
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Post by ShibaPJ »

Now a A3-D2 with only 2 stage has lesser propulsion thus lesser range (4850Km), but then a fully load 3 stage 47.3 tonne chariot will deliver 1.5 tonne across much greater range than 5,500Km on that chart.
How does 8,000 Km sound?

SRDE Yindoo has big danda.
Arun, aapke muhan mein ghee sakkar. :P
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Post by NRao »

MN Kumar wrote:Arun's IDR article is online now.
Strategic Missiles
That was part I, here is Part II:

Strategic Missiles: Part 2
Concept Evaluation of RV for Strategic Ballistic Missile
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Post by SwamyG »

B ) Did the order to do so came from the top political leadership? In which case are we telling the US that we can hit them if we choose to do so?
Don't you think USA military/leadership would have already known that?
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Post by Shankar »

SwamyG
PostPosted: 02 May 2007 04:07 pm Post subject:
Quote:
B ) Did the order to do so came from the top political leadership? In which case are we telling the US that we can hit them if we choose to do so?

Don't you think USA military/leadership would have already known that?
-sure they do and like my favorite president says "strength respects strength" US is also reacting in thier own convoluted way

The 123 agreement is once again on track -maybe the reprocessing issue is now behind
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Post by MN Kumar »

NRao wrote:
MN Kumar wrote:Arun's IDR article is online now.
Strategic Missiles
That was part I, here is Part II:

Strategic Missiles: Part 2
Concept Evaluation of RV for Strategic Ballistic Missile
Thanks NRao. Thats a 4 part series. I was just pointing to the begining.
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Post by CPrakash »

This might have been posted before.

Image

from India Today
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Post by Gerard »

Gerard
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Post by Gerard »

Fatwa from the Ayatollahs at the Majlis-e-Monterey

India Successfully Tests Agni-III: A Stepping Stone To An ICBM?
Thus far, new advances in India’s missile systems have been largely anticipated and have been met with minimal criticism both within the region and farther afield. It is unclear, however, whether India’s aspirations for an intercontinental missile will receive the same degree of tacit acceptance by the international community, should India proceed down this path.
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Post by Arun_S »

Gerard wrote:Fatwa from the Ayatollahs at the Majlis-e-Monterey
Such people in the business of Psy-op drug making industry, often get the veru rude shock when reality catches up with their lies and rubber meets the road. These Ayatollah's nose is now being dragged on asphalt of reality.

Only future for them is to check into a detoxification clinic and do 100 dand baithak in front of SRDE every morning and evening failing which the nose rubbing asphalt will become rougher, and pigs will start to fly, and mere 48 tonne missiles do the job of 480 tonnes NPA missiles. .
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Post by thammu »

Tests, Arrests Draw Attention to Indian Missiles

http://www.armscontrol.org/act/2007_05/ ... ssiles.asp
Three other systems were recently tested, beginning March 30 with a naval version of the Prithvi, the Dhanush. The supersonic cruise missile BrahMos underwent a 14th trial flight April 22 as part of its ongoing induction in the Indian army. missile.Between these two tests, the Indian government conducted one of an unnamed system, possibly the Sagarika cruise
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Post by karan_mc »

{Admin Note: Pls do not post large size pics in inline mode. Just provide link. These 2 pics have been posted on BR before. I have edited to put the link instead. -Arun_S Admin hat on}

two more images of A3 from Frontier india

Link1

Link-2
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