Small Arms Thread

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Postby abhischekcc » 10 Aug 2007 14:32

Kartman wrote:
abhischekcc wrote:Hi,

Can anyone tell the kind of equipment/machinery required in making munitions (basically bullets) of various kind?

Just curious. However interchangeable are these machines with use in civilian applications.


Depends on how what your plans are :P

If you're planning to set-up in your basement, you can make do with hand-operated tools for stamping, folding, joining, pressing, etc... you needn't tell the guvrmand onlee... esp. if you live in Bihar :twisted:

But for large-scale, you'd need a production line (complete with material handling equipment) with the automated versions of the above tools, metal treatment, QC, etc.


I know about hand made bullets, aka Swagging. Some good machines for swagging cost in the range of Rs. 5 to 6 laks onlee. And have a production rate of 2500 to 3000 per day. 24 hour operations. No I am not interested in that. 10 such machines can be used to produce 1 million bullets per annum.


I am more interested in industrial level stuff - Say 1 million bullets per month to per day. :)

Could you help? I would be grateful.

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Designerware

Postby parshu » 10 Aug 2007 20:19

Kartman wrote:
parshu wrote:
Kartman wrote:Still :roll:

And, btw, the AKM is not the "assault rifle version" of the AK-47...


You are right, it is the more modernized and lighter version of the AK-47 assault rifle. My error of articulation. Thank you for the clarification.


No probs :)
Just that it's best if one is 400% sure onlee before stating something as fact on here... simply because many people have come to rely on BRF, and folks have in the past gone around saying ABC is a fact "because parshu/Kartman/Xyz said so on BRF" !

As far as the INSAS goes, pretty much every modern assault rifle uses the AK-inspired gas-operated, rotating bolt, save for a few notable exceptions from the H&K, CETME, etc. stable.

Much like the modern compact car layout owes a lot to the Citroen 2CV onlee... :)


Well our neighboring Pakis used the G3 which was superior to the SLR in the sense it provided for auto fire with an open bolt ( less heating)and single-shot with a closed bolt ( More energy, more accuracy). Though I do not know if the pak version was auto-enabled.It is a blowback weapon, as you say the Geman exception to the gas-operated rotating bolt used by the AK-47 and M16.

I am merely pointing out that small arms design is a conservative area for most countries and led by History. The Soviet's WW2 experience with submachineguns made them believe an untrained soilder could bring greater firepower with auto weapons. They needed something that would work at 300m, to match, say the Sturmgeweher44 proto-asault rifle ( using an interesting 7.92 short cartridge round)of the Nazis. The AK-47, designed for being made in big numbers as much as for usage was their response. America's "expeditionary" WW2 and Korea experience made them stress single-shot accuracy and lightness and portability, which led to the M16.
If we had been using the G3 instead of the SLR, it may be that INSAS would have been a blowback weapon. Its a no-brainer that familarity of pre-existing systems influences later design in amost every case ( US, Uk, Germany, Rus, China) Just so for the INSAS.

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User experiences

Postby parshu » 10 Aug 2007 20:58

BTW, Kartman, your experience with the Kalashnikov was really interesting and vivid. I can just hear the bolt clanging on the stamped-out receiver. Thanks for sharing. I have "cradled" an IPS officer buddy's Glock in my hand but have of course never loosed off a round. A pal fm the Gurkhas offered me a Chinese 9mm Browning copy and 1 magazine he had taken off a dead Afghan in Kupwara, but not being Sanjay Dutt, I refused. :)

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LMG Discussion

Postby salen » 13 Aug 2007 04:18

Hi, this is my first post! Anyway, about this INSAS LMG discussion, we have seen arguments for a box magazine and arguments for a belt. I am not saying that a 30 round box is insufficient, afterall, the Soviet RPK had a 30 round box but why not simply develop an optional larger box or drum? A 70, or 80, or 90 round drum or box magazine would certainly increase the INSAS LMG's ability to lay surpressing fire without any of the negative problems that would arise from a messy belt fed system. You would probably not even physically change the INSAS LMG as it would simply be a bigger magazine. I would think having two or three large drums rather than half a dozen 30 round magazines. The Chinese are doing the exact same thing with the QBZ-95 family with the QBB-95's 75 round drum. I think the INSAS LMG having different choices, depending on the circumstances in terms of the feed system would be a good thing. The only issue I would forsee is an adequate cooling system.

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Postby Babui » 13 Aug 2007 05:35

"Semi-Lobster" - you need to follow forum rules and re-register under a "proper name" :)

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Postby negi » 13 Aug 2007 05:56

parshu wrote:Well our neighboring Pakis used the G3 which was superior to the SLR in the sense it provided for auto fire with an open bolt ( less heating)and single-shot with a closed bolt ( More energy, more accuracy).

I would like to differ on that.

1.The FN-FAL is gas-operated and fires from the closed-bolt position in both the semi- and full-auto modes.

Another major +ve about the SLR is its ability to fire ammo of wide range for all 7.62 rounds are not the same due to differences in bullet weight, case material and propellant depending on who made it and what the round is designed to do) Roller locked rifles (G3) which are machined at high tolerances require a specific grade of ammunition as the case begins extraction while there is still high pressure in the barrel (case must be able to take the punishment over a wide range of ammo). However in case of SLR, the propellant gases are tapped off to a gas tube which has a piston in it that moves the breech block (the process being slower allows th pressure inside to drop prior to extraction). This means one would have lesser reliability issues with SLR when using cheap quality ammo as compared to G3.

I guess the manual gas operator makes sense in the above case i.e. one can fine tune the amount of gas feed depending on the ammo as well as adjust the recoil.

Though I do not know if the pak version was auto-enabled.It is a blowback weapon, as you say the Geman exception to the gas-operated rotating bolt used by the AK-47 and M16.

I would not indulge into semantics ,having said that even the H&K has opted for gas operated and rotary bolt mechanism for G-36 and MG-43 (close resemblance to minimi).
Last edited by negi on 13 Aug 2007 06:00, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby salen » 13 Aug 2007 05:58

Babui wrote:"Semi-Lobster" - you need to follow forum rules and re-register under a "proper name" :)


Dreadfully sorry about that errr... but I only have one non free e-mail thoughcan this account be deleted or something. Once again I'm sorry for this, the layout of this forum is somewhat dissimilar from the other history/defence forums I frequent so err... what can be done in this siutation, this is an excellent forum from what I've read and not being able to take part would be rather tortuous

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Postby mandrake » 13 Aug 2007 06:01

Semi-Lobster wrote:
Babui wrote:"Semi-Lobster" - you need to follow forum rules and re-register under a "proper name" :)


Dreadfully sorry about that errr... but I only have one non free e-mail thoughcan this account be deleted or something. Once again I'm sorry for this, the layout of this forum is somewhat dissimilar from the other history/defence forums I frequent so err... what can be done in this siutation, this is an excellent forum from what I've read and not being able to take part would be rather tortuous


Relax, just tell the admins they will change your user-name, or just wait till anmy admin comes online and changes it to what you want? then post here simple. No need to delete et al.

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Postby shiv » 13 Aug 2007 06:39

Semi-Lobster wrote:
Babui wrote:"Semi-Lobster" - you need to follow forum rules and re-register under a "proper name" :)


Dreadfully sorry about that errr... but I only have one non free e-mail thoughcan this account be deleted or something. Once again I'm sorry for this, the layout of this forum is somewhat dissimilar from the other history/defence forums I frequent so err... what can be done in this siutation, this is an excellent forum from what I've read and not being able to take part would be rather tortuous


Semi-Lobster - name changed to salen

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Postby salen » 13 Aug 2007 07:37

shiv wrote:
Semi-Lobster wrote:
Babui wrote:"Semi-Lobster" - you need to follow forum rules and re-register under a "proper name" :)


Dreadfully sorry about that errr... but I only have one non free e-mail thoughcan this account be deleted or something. Once again I'm sorry for this, the layout of this forum is somewhat dissimilar from the other history/defence forums I frequent so err... what can be done in this siutation, this is an excellent forum from what I've read and not being able to take part would be rather tortuous


Semi-Lobster - name changed to salen


Thank you so much shiv, sorry for interrupting this thread with some undue drama, nowback to small arms discussion!

I have some questions about the IOF 12 bore shotgun, is it currently being used as a combat shotgun, like the American (well, Italian) M1014 Combat Shotgun, in the Indian army or is it only being used by police and civilians?

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Gun banter

Postby parshu » 13 Aug 2007 07:37

I would not indulge into semantics ,having said that even the H&K has opted for gas operated and rotary bolt mechanism for G-36 and MG-43 (close resemblance to minimi).[/quote] QUOTE FM NEGI

NEGI, my bro,
Not "indulging" in "Semantics" - when I said that the G3 was the German exception to the gas operated system used by the most ubiquitous small arms systems in the world - merely a statement of fact, however if you do not want to indulge in semantics yourself, that is your personal choice which I respect,

but that aside, Negi, your explanation of the advantage of the adjustable G/O system in general and the SLR in particular was both interesting and informative, have learnt something new so thanks sincerely for sharing.


BTW Isn't the G-36 the base system for the OICW? Does anyone know if the OICW has been operationalized or if there are any field test reports available, particularly fm Iraq or Afgahnistan. Would also like to ask the well-informed forum members if they know anything about the Vickers water cooled machine guns ( remember biggles?) and whether any re-engineered versions existed in service with Pakistan or other countries Believe they were accurate to longer distances than standard MGs.

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Uses of IOF shotgun by the IA

Postby parshu » 13 Aug 2007 07:59

I have some questions about the IOF 12 bore shotgun, is it currently being used as a combat shotgun, like the American (well, Italian) M1014 Combat Shotgun, in the Indian army or is it only being used by police and civilians?[/quote]QUOTE

Very useful when the CO- Sahib feels like having some partridge in a tomato curry. :D

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Re: Uses of IOF shotgun by the IA

Postby salen » 13 Aug 2007 08:25

parshu wrote:Very useful when the CO- Sahib feels like having some partridge in a tomato curry. :D


So I take it it it's not used by the Indian army. :wink: From the OFB website it seems like a capable enough gun, certainly seems to be the equivalent to the American Mossberg 500. I would have thought it would have wound up with the Paramilitary or police. I'm sorry if my questions seem a tad juvenile but given the lack of English sites dedicated to Indian Defence (other than Bharat Rakshak! :D ) it's hard to keep up sometimes.

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Re: Uses of IOF shotgun by the IA

Postby negi » 13 Aug 2007 09:43

parshu wrote:I have some questions about the IOF 12 bore shotgun, is it currently being used as a combat shotgun, like the American (well, Italian) M1014 Combat Shotgun, in the Indian army or is it only being used by police and civilians?
I have no idea about the IOF 12 never seen any in hands of a service personnel :shock: .Having said that I do recollect naval personnel used to come armed with doubles (SxS config) in the colony for shooting the stray dogs.

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Re: Uses of IOF shotgun by the IA

Postby parshu » 13 Aug 2007 16:26

negi wrote:
parshu wrote:I have some questions about the IOF 12 bore shotgun, is it currently being used as a combat shotgun, like the American (well, Italian) M1014 Combat Shotgun, in the Indian army or is it only being used by police and civilians?
I have no idea about the IOF 12 never seen any in hands of a service personnel :shock: .Having said that I do recollect naval personnel used to come armed with doubles (SxS config) in the colony for shooting the stray dogs.



When I stayed at the Flagstaff House in Jamnagar as a boy, the ek-naliya and du-naliya were a part of the armory, but only used for decimating local wildlife. Sections were issued with SLRs and LMGs back in the 80s as far as I remember.

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Postby sunilUpa » 13 Aug 2007 21:26

Government proposes to set up two new defence production units of which one is for the production of Bi-Modular Charge System (BMCS), and the other is for production of new generation carbines.The project for production of BMCS at Nalanda has already been approved by the Government. The revision in project cost is now pending approval. The unit for production of new generation carbines is under consideration of the Government.


From the PIB press release.

Link

After all these years, GoI is still considering BMCS unit...oh well :eek:

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Postby KiranM » 13 Aug 2007 22:08

What is a Bi-modular Charge System? Me layman saar.. require enlightenment which Google refused.. :D

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Postby JCage » 13 Aug 2007 22:26

artillery charge used for 155mm bofors..

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Re: Designerware

Postby Igorr » 14 Aug 2007 16:24

parshu wrote:Well our neighboring Pakis used the G3 which was superior to the SLR in the sense it provided for auto fire with an open bolt ( less heating)and single-shot with a closed bolt ( More energy, more accuracy). ...
The AK-47, designed for being made in big numbers as much as for usage was their response. America's "expeditionary" WW2 and Korea experience made them stress single-shot accuracy and lightness and portability, which led to the M16..
Donno about Indian SLR, but according to the tests, G3 has very worse accurateness while the accurateness of 7.62 mm AK-47 was the same like M16.
Citation:
"The M16A2 used was in as-new condition, no. 8181826,
with in-bore measurement of 5.55 mm at the breach and 5.54 mm
at the middle of the barrel and at the muzzle. Dispersion ("worst"
group of 7-9 shots) at 42 m was within a circle of 9 cm diameter.

Ammunition used was Swedish, made by FFV, conforming to
NATO standard 5.56mm sk ptr 5 stkprj, Lot no. 07086012 08-28.
The average muzzle velocity was 935 m/sec and the bullet weight
was 4.00g. The G3 used was manufactured in 1964, no. G3HK
0324484 1/84, with in-bore measurements of 7.62mm at the
breach, at the middle of the barrel and at the muzzle, and dispersion
("worst" group of 7-10 shots) at 42m was within a circle of
11.5 cm diameter. Since the results were not as good as we had expected,

another weapon with the same specifications was tried, but
this gave essentially the same results. Ammunition used was Danish,
made by AMA, 7.62mm SKPT M/75, Lot no. 02AMA91. The
average muzzle velocity was 810m/sec and the bullet weight was
9.42g. The AK-47 used was license-manufactured in DDR in
1962, no. 62 J 2657, with in-bore measurements of 7.61 mm at the
breach and 7.62 mm at the middle of the barrel and at the muzzle.
Dispersion at 42 m ("worst" group of 8-9 shots) was within a circle
of 8.5 cm diameter.
The ammunition was Finnish, made by Lapua,
7.62 x 39 Luoti $405, Lot no. JIKW. The average muzzle velocity
was 720 m/sec and the bullet weight was 7.98 g. The AK-74
used was license-manufactured in the People's Republic of China
in 1980, no. 117496, with in-bore measurements of 5.46 mm at the breach,
at the middle of the barrel and at the muzzle. Dispersion at
42m ("worst" group of 8 shots) was within a circle of 8cm diameter.

The ammunition was produced in the GDR, lot no. 080. The
average muzzle velocity was 910m/sec and the bullet weight was
3.44 g. " (Source: http://www.springerlink.com/content/t88 ... lltext.pdf )
The results were predictable since the energy of Russian 7.62x39 mm AK-47 round is only 2010 J - much lesser than 7.62x51 NATO G3 (3360 J). Even 5.56 mm NATO F16 round has 3085 J energy.
The problems of early AK-47's were mostly solved on the further developed. Some units in Ru Army still prefer the modern variants of AK-47 - 7.62x39 AK-103 for close quarter combats, as one can see on the picture:
Image

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Dispersion factors

Postby parshu » 14 Aug 2007 17:40

The same weapon SLR L1AI, ishapore on an army firing range produced a 2 cm grouping and a 25 cm grouping on a man-size target at 100m. The difference in dispersion? My Army uncle a good shot fired the first time and optically challenged me fired the seond time. :-)

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Postby tsarkar » 16 Aug 2007 16:38

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/LAND-FORC ... _itemId=68

This is an interesting picture. I have never seen a 12.7 mm MG in infantry service. M2 was coaxially mounted on the Centurion/Vijayanta. This is a tripod mounted proper infantry weapon. The M2HB uses a 12.7x99mm round compared to the 12.7x108mm round used in NSVT made by OFB.

Can someone elaborate on M2 in infantry service?

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Postby salen » 20 Aug 2007 08:15

I have another question to ask, I have read the December 2006 DRDO Technology Focus and am intrigued by several developments and I was curious if anyone had any updates on their development, specifically the Modern Sub Machine Carbine. The article implies that testing had already been done on the new SMG and that was nearly a year ago, so is it going under some sort of final phase in testing? Any rough estimates when it will enter service? Any news on an actual name or will it just be the 'MSMC'?

Also I have a question concerning tests for a 40mm UBGL for th INSAS and AK variants, did anything ever come of this or will we be seeing the No. 36 Mk. I rifle grenade in service for many years to come?

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Postby SRay » 26 Sep 2007 04:10

This investigative piece says the M16 still suffers from inaccuracy and unreliability, while the AK has advanced considerably and would be the preferred weapon -- these opinions from one of the original designers of the M16.

http://rawstory.com/news/2007/PBS_Guns_of_US_Soldiers_in_0924.html

Scroll down a bit and watch the video

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Postby ArmenT » 27 Sep 2007 10:39

Heh, it looks like Jim Sullivan is trying to peddle his Ultimax weapon system. Things that were misleading in the documentary:

1. The M-16 isn't a bad rifle PROVIDED it is kept clean. Granted that the AK series has far wider tolerances and isn't affected by dirt as much as the M-16 series. OTOH, a variety of public tests show that the M-16 is a bit more accurate than the AK74.

2. The AK-74's round (5.45x39 mm), is actually less powerful than the M-16s (5.56 x 45 mm or .223). All this talk about twice as much more power is BS. The one issue that the troops are having is to do with the stopping power of the 5.56 round, which seems to be a bit inadequate in some situations. Per recent studies, 6.8 mm seems to be more optimum these days.

3. The quote 'the M-16 hasnt changed an inch since it was introduced' is total BS. We wouldn't have the M-16 A1, A2, A3 and A4 or the M4 otherwise.

4. 30 round magazines are a compromise between balance, weight and capacity. The 100 round mag looks great in video games, but screws up the rifle's balance. Plus it is harder to carry on you, since it doesn't clip flat on your chest. On top of that, it has closer tolerances than a 30 round mag and is much more prone to failure if it is dropped or has some dirt in it. Supposedly, it also takes longer to reload than a 30 round mag too (though you have to reload less often, of course). See this URL for more info about it.

5. Who the heck fires an M-16 from the hip? The M-16 is a personal assault rifle, not a squad assault weapon (SAW). Besides, the damn stock and grips are molded to be fired from your shoulder.

6. "...full automatic, in the assault. That's where the term 'Assault Rifle' came from" isn't quite correct. It is a translation from the German word "Sturmgehwer", which incidentally was a term coined by Hitler himself.
Reference

7. "Hanging more stuff off the rifle compromises its reliability" - Another BS statement. What does adding stuff to the outside of the rifle have to do with the internals of it. About the only thing that the extra stuff affects is the balance of the weapon.

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Postby Igorr » 28 Sep 2007 02:00

ArmenT wrote:2. The AK-74's round (5.45x39 mm), is actually less powerful than the M-16s (5.56 x 45 mm or .223). All this talk about twice as much more power is BS. The one issue that the troops are having is to do with the stopping power of the 5.56 round, which seems to be a bit inadequate in some situations. Per recent studies, 6.8 mm seems to be more optimum these days..

- Less powerful doesnt mean less effective. The Russian army is satisfated with 5.45 mm. The bullet has better aerodinamics than 5.56 NATO, with hard steel core allow better penetration capability. The 6.8 mm also isnt a panacea, BTW the first world serial assault rifle was Russian 6.5x50 mm 'Fedorov Automatic Rifle'. It's on Russian service between 1916 to 1928 years, but was changed for more effective 7.62 mm mauser submachine guns. If this caliber were so good why would they changed it?

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Postby Abhi K Rao » 28 Sep 2007 08:52

The reason for 6.5x50.5mm was because Federov did not have access to the required technology to enable a heavier round. His original gun was based around the Arisaka, which was favored by Japanese soldiers for the lower recoil. Federov chose the smaller round because anything larger would have been too hard on the Avtomats and would require heavier bolts, pistons, and other components. Later contemporaries, such as Kalash, had much better facilities and battlefield imperatives. This is what enabled the utilization of a heavier intermediate round.

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Postby Igorr » 28 Sep 2007 10:43

Abhi K Rao wrote:The reason for 6.5x50.5mm was because Federov did not have access to the required technology to enable a heavier round.
I think, you're mislead about Fedorov. He was not only practicist but the 'father' of the Russian (and in some aspect world) small arms constructor school, the big theorist. One of his thesis: the arms development goes towards lesser caliber and more sofisticated weapon and rounds. This thesis worked till the end of the century. So, his advice for transfer from rifle 7.62x53R to lesser caliber and automatic fire was theoretically grounded and not just compulsion. He choose the Japan's round according to the traditional Russian minimalistic phylosophy of design: why to invite the weel if the need device is already existed?
Some authors tend to link AK47 design with the German 'Stormgewehr', but the legacy of Fedorov was more prominent in all Kalashnikov's work IMHO.

I always said, the most problem of M4/M16 is not its small caliber or poor designed bullet, but jumming. Some additional citations about this problem:

Iraq: "On March 23, when the Army's 507th Maintenance Company convoy rumbled by accident into Nasiriya, swarms of Iraqis in the unsecured city greeted them with a hail of bullets. The soldiers returned fire, but sand picked up from their desert journey soon jammed their rifles.
After 15 minutes of fighting, which claimed the lives of nine U.S. troops, Riley, the ranking soldier, decided they should surrender.
"We were like Custer. We were surrounded. We had no working weapons. We couldn't even make a bayonet charge. We would have been mowed down. We didn't have a choice," Riley said'. http://edition.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast ... index.html

Vietnam: ""We were going in to pick up dead marines from 1/9 and when we got there, every one of them had their M-16's in various states of disassembly, trying to make them fire." http://www.salem-news.com/articles/apri ... _42507.php

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Postby Abhi K Rao » 28 Sep 2007 13:52

I think, you're mislead about Fedorov. He was not only practicist but the 'father' of the Russian (and in some aspect world) small arms constructor school, the big theorist. One of his thesis: the arms development goes towards lesser caliber and more sofisticated weapon and rounds. This thesis worked till the end of the century. So, his advice for transfer from rifle 7.62x53R to lesser caliber and automatic fire was theoretically grounded and not just compulsion. He choose the Japan's round according to the traditional Russian minimalistic phylosophy of design: why to invite the weel if the need device is already existed?
Some authors tend to link AK47 design with the German 'Stormgewehr', but the legacy of Fedorov was more prominent in all Kalashnikov's work IMHO



Comrade,

I was not detracting from Federov's genius. After all, he was ahead of his time and pioneered many techniques that would later be used by both Germans and Russians. Larry Kahaner’s book on the AK-47 also agrees with this view- that a larger caliber auto weapon was prevented by lack of means. Not for the cartridge, but because Russian industry was unable to produce the components for a fully automatic large bore gun. The text has a significant amount of research and was chiefly from Russian sources. It states that the 6.5mm ammo was influenced by the lack of technology and practicality (for that time). For example, “he did so because the commonly used larger rounds were too hard on the Avtomats and required heavier bolts, pistons, and other components. He was simply trying to make his guns last longer.â€
Last edited by Abhi K Rao on 30 Sep 2007 04:24, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Igorr » 28 Sep 2007 19:38

Abhi K Rao wrote: It was a blindness that afflicted nations across the world until WW2. Contemporary field officers thought that a smaller cartridge was unnecessary because they did not see the need for this sort of weapon Even after the war, the US felt that carbines provided the best squad level firepower.
I think, the 'blindness' of the decision makers follows to exist right now too, but we will see it only over the years . Who hampers for the Americans to adopt officially an AK derivate with all those supa-dupa advanced gadgets they love so much? Only their obstinacy does.
Image
Image

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Postby vinayak_d » 28 Sep 2007 21:17

What guns are those igorr?

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Postby Igorr » 29 Sep 2007 04:26

vinayak_dangui wrote:What guns are those igorr?
Modernized variant of AK-47.

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Postby Shankar » 29 Sep 2007 10:36

wow -looks super .The lower picture shows a drum magazine -how many bullets does it hold .

By the way Igorr ,while in US got a chance to fire AK-47s in a shooting club ,with original Russian ammo(copper jacketed).The main problem was aiming at 150 mtrs ,could hardly put 2 on the board ,none in the bulls ring . the recoil was good and hard even when resting the gun on a bean bag and the noise was very sharp and flat .

In these new version have they improved the aiming sights and the new 5.54 ammo -does it have less recoil and noise

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Postby Igorr » 29 Sep 2007 14:53

Shankar wrote:wow -looks super .The lower picture shows a drum magazine -how many bullets does it hold .

Up to 60 rounds for. It's already came to Russian Army, but in limited quantities. No much need for it in peace time. I saw spec-naz with AK-74M and such drum.

By the way Igorr ,while in US got a chance to fire AK-47s in a shooting club ,with original Russian ammo(copper jacketed).The main problem was aiming at 150 mtrs ,could hardly put 2 on the board ,none in the bulls ring . the recoil was good and hard even when resting the gun on a bean bag and the noise was very sharp and flat .

In these new version have they improved the aiming sights and the new 5.54 ammo -does it have less recoil and noise
The version above - has classic AK-47/AKM reload mech and gas-compensator (on the tip of a barrel). So I dont expect different accurateness or low noise. The main aim of such modernisation was adaptation of classic layout Kalashnikov to the need of consumer which is used to use western additional kit (sights, laser designator etc) on the Picattinni rail, but is unsatisfated with the M16/M4 jamming or rounds. The classic lateral timbering for optics ('the swallow tail')is unusual for the western user/ There are a lot of private Western security agencies in Iraq and Afghanistan, who prefered such kind of AKs with the caliber 7.62x39. You can distinguish the caliber by the magazin curve, the most curved is 7.62mm, the most stright - 5.56NATO, 5,45x39 is between. These are 7.62mm AKs:
ImageImage

The fact that the private sec agencies in a real battle zone prefere AK over M16 says a lot IMHO. It means in stuation of relative free market, while the consumer has a choice, he mostly selects AK.

Turning to the accurateness issue: the low caliber AKs (5.45, 5.56 mm) have naturally lower recoil due to their lighter bullet and lower energy powder charge. So, when the 7.62 AKs minimal dispertion is lke 4 MOA (minutes of angle), the 5.xx-mm AKs are closing to M16 2 MOA. However, the accuratness of AKs is very different between the castomers. The most accurate 7.62 mm said to be the Finnish Rk.95 and of course the last (black) Russian AKs of '100th serial' (AK-103 and the newborn AK with mass-compensation). The finns claim their 7.62mm Rk.95 accurateness is like M16, but no independent evidence for that I know. The difference between the Finnish AKs with the Russian is well recognized on the picture. The Finnish has its lateral sight on the tail, so the linger distance between the lateral and the forward sight gives a possibility for better aiming without optics. BTW, the Finnish AK (Rk.62) was the prototype for the Israel AKs (Galil). THey even bought the technical documentation for this device from Finland:
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The bottom pics aire 5.56 mm AKs with last gen gas-compensator and combinated (lateral&Picattinni) kit:
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Some light machinegun variants, drum magazines:
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Postby Abhi K Rao » 30 Sep 2007 04:22

I think, the 'blindness' of the decision makers follows to exist right now too, but we will see it only over the years . Who hampers for the Americans to adopt officially an AK derivate with all those supa-dupa advanced gadgets they love so much?


The main aim of such modernisation was adaptation of classic layout Kalashnikov to the need of consumer which is used to use western additional kit (sights, laser designator etc) on the Picattinni rail, but is unsatisfated with the M16/M4 jamming or rounds. The classic lateral timbering for optics ('the swallow tail') is unusual for the western user/ there are a lot of private Western security agencies in Iraq and Afghanistan, who preferred such kind of AKs with the caliber 7.62x39. You can distinguish the caliber by the magazin curve, the most curved is 7.62mm, the most stright - 5.56NATO, 5,45x39 is between. These are 7.62mm AKs:



I don’t blame them for making the following modifications. The stock AK is a crude gun with many advantages and some minor flaws. S.W.A.T magazine had a great article by Steve Moses on easy fixes that made the AK a lot more user friendly. The stock sights on AKs are deplorable- usually a small rear V or U sight, in which the front one is centered. In certain conditions i.e. bad lighting, these sights are virtually unusable. Depending on the shooter, stock AKs can achieve 4-6 MOA. By changing some minor accessories, this can be vastly improved. Mr. Moses suggests opening up the rear sight to .100 or replacing the rear sight with the Champion Gunsight. If this is not appealing, one could replace the rear sight with a Krebs custom rear aperture sight or a Mojo Sightings Systems rear aperture sight that features adjustable windage and elevation. A red dot sight can allow the AK to suddenly become suited for work under a variety of conditions. During the author’s initial sighting, he was able to repeatedly hit a two inch bull using a six o’clock hold. The stock safety is also crude and when replaced makes the AK much more tactical. A Blackjack Buffer safety allows you to store the rifle with your bolt open. This allows the user to take the weapon off safe while bringing the rifle to bear. This is achieved without compromising the original firing grip and saves time in a close quarter battle. A new stock, flash suppressor, tactical light, and trigger all improve the ergonomics of the AK. Triggers on stock rifles vary from long and smooth, to creepy and prone to trigger slapping. The author recommends a short crisp two stage aftermarket trigger such as the Tapco G-2 or the Red Star Arms adjustable.

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Postby Igorr » 30 Sep 2007 23:45

Abhi K Rao wrote:I don’t blame them for making the following modifications. The stock AK is a crude gun with many advantages and some minor flaws.
However, the AK-based and M16-based assalt rifles are mostly belong to the past. I believe, the next gen army automatic weapon will be more specialized and include two main types:
1) 5.45x39/5.56xNATO with delayed recoil like AN-94 Abakan - for long distance, open areas, short burst fire. This weapon is good as AK or M16 on long burst, but much more accurate on single shot or short burst.
2) 7.62x39 mm with recoil compensation like AK107/Ak108/AEK971 but with shorten barrel - for short distance, close quarter combats, long burst fire. They are especially stable and controlable on long bursts. The 7.62 mm caliber is needed for the rounds to be energetic enough even with a shorten barrel.

BTW Russian army already has both 5.45 mm AN-94 and 7.62x39 mm AEK-971 assault rifles, but in limited quantities. I hope, after some years of practical experience the needed improved will be done and the flaws will be fixed too, like it was happen in AK-47 history.
AN-94 'Abakan' in Chechnya:
Image

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Postby shiv » 01 Oct 2007 06:33

I hope, after some years of practical experience the needed improved will be done and the flaws will be fixed too, like it was happen in AK-47 history.


End user and observer maturity about design and development and the knowledge that it takes time is something that comes only with experience of initial failures.

Having no history of technical and engineering innovation and development for even over decades, let alone centuries, Indians tend to lament and fear the worst the minute any flaws are discovered in a newly developed Indian item. Our armed forces' "best of brochure" technical requirements surely stem partly from this.

Igorr's matter of fact statement stands in stark contrast to that.

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Postby ArmenT » 01 Oct 2007 08:12

Interestingly, the AN-94 has a much more complex mechanism than the AK-74 family, which is quite different from the Russian philosophy of the past which kept simplicity as high priority. Russian sources claim that the AN-94 is more reliable than the 74 due to modern materials and production techniques. However, another article claims that the AN-94 is much more work to maintain than the AK-74. Does anyone know which one is correct?

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Postby Igorr » 01 Oct 2007 14:28

shiv wrote:Having no history of technical and engineering innovation and development for even over decades, let alone centuries, Indians tend to lament and fear the worst the minute any flaws are discovered in a newly developed Indian item.
I think, the cause may have social root.In the contry, where the social 'vertical mobility' was extramally low due to cast system, colonisators politics etc, the incentives for invention are low too. The similar picture was in Russia before the Russian revolution: the quasi-cast ('soslovie') social system was too rigid for inventions. Such system is rather encourages obedience than initiatives. I hope after the indian middle class say its word in politics, the old social elite will loose its grasp over the national resources and awards. So, the way for any innovation will be somehow easy.
ArmenT wrote:Interestingly, the AN-94 has a much more complex mechanism than the AK-74 family, which is quite different from the Russian philosophy of the past which kept simplicity as high priority. Russian sources claim that the AN-94 is more reliable than the 74 due to modern materials and production techniques. However, another article claims that the AN-94 is much more work to maintain than the AK-74. Does anyone know which one is correct?
AN-94 is the winner of the big tender for new 5.45mm assault rifle, which started 1988 and finished 1994. It won against Kalashnikov, Korobov, Stechkin, Afanasyev, Garev and Pikinsky (it's only the 'short list' of the competitors) - all they are prominent light weapon designers. All the 'short list' prototypes passed the most hard reliability tests ever known. The Nikonov's AN-94 won with big gap, while the jury made the accent on the short burst capability. However, some other pretenders, including AEK-971, show better long-burst accuratness. In the 'short list' of Abakan tender two prototypes were with delayed recoil, three - with recoil compensation and only one - with classic mechanics. You can see here all the prototypes:
Nikonov AN-94 (Izhevsk)Image
Kalashnikov AKB-1 (AK-107) (Izhevsk)Image
Garev-Koksharov AEK-971(Kovrov)Image
Stechkin's TKB-0146 (Tula)Image
Korobov TKB-0111Image
Afanasyev ТКБ-0136-3МImage
Pikinsky AEK-978Image
Indeed the maintanence of AN-94 isnot more intensive than AK, but you must learn more long time how to disassamble it and how to assemble back. Thus, it's good for a professional soldier, who serves many years, takes part in many operations and realy wants to be with more advanced weapon than the terrorists have. Otherwise it should be hard to survive till the retirement...
ImageImageImageImage
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Postby Abhi K Rao » 02 Oct 2007 06:05

BTW Russian army already has both 5.45 mm AN-94 and 7.62x39 mm AEK-971 assault rifles, but in limited quantities. I hope, after some years of practical experience the needed improved will be done and the flaws will be fixed too, like it was happen in AK-47 history.


AN-94 is the winner of the big tender for new 5.45mm assault rifle, which started 1988 and finished 1994. It won against Kalashnikov, Korobov, Stechkin, Afanasyev, Garev and Pikinsky (it's only the 'short list' of the competitors) - all they are prominent light weapon designers. All the 'short list' prototypes passed the most hard reliability tests ever known. The Nikonov's AN-94 won with big gap, while the jury made the accent on the short burst capability. However, some other pretenders, including AEK-971, show better long-burst accuratness. In the 'short list' of Abakan tender two prototypes were with delayed recoil, three - with recoil compensation and only one - with classic mechanics. You can see here all the prototypes:



[quote] Finally after being shown in 1993, Russian Officials announced that the AN-94 would replace the venerable AK as the standard infantry weapon in the Russian arsenal. This change had been in the works for some time. As mentioned earlier, when the Soviets had built the Ak-74 in order to accommodate the smaller 5.54 x 39mm round, the riddle was a compromise, a way to get them into the small cartridge game in a hurry by adapting Kalashnikov’s design. Not that the design was substandard- the weapon and it’s “poison bulletâ€

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Postby Igorr » 02 Oct 2007 14:31

Abhi K Rao wrote:
The AN-94 and a 30 round magazine weighed 9 and ½ pounds, about 2 more than the Ak-74///...
*1.Kahaner, 232

- Not so much :D
Although AN-94 is hevier, than AK-74 a bit. While AK-74M weighs 3.4 kg (3.8 loaded),
M16 weighs 3.6 kg (3.9 loaded)
AN-94 weighs 3.85 kg (4.2 loaded)

I think, this weight penalty is still worthing while AN-94 is better, then AK-74M in the most important aspects:
1) The soldier may fire single shots or short burst without any support of its shoulder, from unstable position. Now it doesnt impair the accurateness.
2) The first two bullets come almost at the same spot. No bodyarmor can withstand two bullets at the same point or two bullets at the same ceramic plate.
3) Two bullets hit rises the probability of foe incapacitation

Also as one can believe the further work of AN-94 platform will bring to development of lighter, bullpap and shorten-burrel versions of the weapon. AN-94 is very capable platform, and this platform is only at the start of its way, while AK already achieved the apex of its potential.

The systems with delayed recoil were developed in Russia from middle 60th, but only in 90th they succeed to overcome the difficulties. BTW, the most dangerouse competitor, German H&K, tried to do the same in late 80th (G11 program), but didnt succeed.

AN-94 and shorten AK-104 on 'Izhmash' exposition:
ImageImage


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