Small Arms Thread

KartikM
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Postby KartikM » 05 Oct 2007 03:56

Hope this is not off topic, but is anyone here into Airsoft? I know they have paintball in India now but is there any scope for Airsoft or will that pose a legal problem?

Thanks :)

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Postby Abhi K Rao » 05 Oct 2007 04:48

I think, this weight penalty is still worthing while AN-94 is better, then AK-74M in the most important aspects:
1) The soldier may fire single shots or short burst without any support of its shoulder, from unstable position. Now it doesnt impair the accurateness.
2) The first two bullets come almost at the same spot. No bodyarmor can withstand two bullets at the same point or two bullets at the same ceramic plate.



Apparently a salvo of AN-94 bursts can even penetrate light/medium tank armor.

What is your opinion on the 5.56mm AK-102? How does it compare to the M-16a1 or the Ak-74?

Hope this is not off topic, but is anyone here into Airsoft? I know they have paintball in India now but is there any scope for Airsoft or will that pose a legal problem?


Hm, my friends got into air-soft a couple years back but I stuck with paintball. Airsoft is a lot of fun though(stings if your using high powered rifles and plastic pellets). Wouldn’t have an idea if it can or will make it out there. What type of paintball guns do the arenas in India have?

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Postby KartikM » 05 Oct 2007 10:31

Hi Abhi,

The only paintball place I know of is in Bangalore. They have the standard Tippmann 98 guns. I have not been there personally but my friend has played there. You can check out there website http://www.yuyutsa.com/.

Yah I just recently got into airsoft. More than playing, I would like to collect airsoft guns. Some of them are incredibly detailed and realistic looking. Wouldn't it be cool to have a BR paintball/airsoft party? :)

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Postby ArmenT » 05 Oct 2007 12:10

Abhi K Rao wrote:What is your opinion on the 5.56mm AK-102? How does it compare to the M-16a1 or the Ak-74?

AK-102 is actually a carbine variant of AK-101 (it has a shorter barrel) and they're both designed to fire NATO ammunition. Think of them as improved AK-74s

By the way, if you want to use NATO rounds (M855 or SS109), M16A1 is the wrong weapon to use. You want to use M16A2 or higher for these rounds because the barrel twist on M16A1 is unsuitable for the NATO round.

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Postby Igorr » 05 Oct 2007 13:22

Abhi K Rao wrote:Apparently a salvo of AN-94 bursts can even penetrate light/medium tank armor.

- M'not sure... As well as I can understand, the penetrating power of the two bullet burst of AN-94 is based on its effect on a ceramic plate of bodyarmor. The first bullet in the burst brokes the ceramic plate and the second - hits the target. All that effect is due to the feature of ceramics to be broken totally or partially after been hit. A ceramic plate is defending by own destruction. The armor of the vehicles is something different, its steel part is mostly enough against 5.45/5.56 mm.
What is your opinion on the 5.56mm AK-102? How does it compare to the M-16a1 or the Ak-74?
AK-102 is 5.56 NATO AK with shorten barrel. As a rule, shorten barrel isnt enough for low caliber. The incapacitating capability of 5.56 NATO rounds are based on their fragmentation. The initial bullet velocity for 5.56 with shorten burrel is like 600-650 m/s. It means, after 50-100 m of flying the bullet losses its velocity and then its ability for fragmentation. Do you want go in battle with the rifle with effective range 50-100 m against soft target and zero range against a target with body armor?

The initial velocity of bullet with the long M16 is like 950 m/s, so the devastating effect of low caliber bullet against the soft target will be on 300-400 m as well. It's the most probably range of fighting. If you want more range - you better go for higher caliber, single shot and optics.

On other hand AK-74's rounds have some different mechanism of devastating effect. Unlike 5.56, the 5,45x39 mm rounds have early tumbling. They start to tumble immitiately when touching the soft issue, transferring their energy to the issue. And they are not fragmented. As many researches proved, tumbling is less effective way for tissue devastation, but this effect is more stble on the long distance. While 5.56 mm NATO designed bullet is not already defragmented, 5.45x39 is still tumbling.

Also 5.45x39 rounds have better penetrating affect against body armor due to their hard steel core. Only the very expensive 5.56 NATO bullet with tungsten alloy core has some better penetrating capability. However, with the shorten barrel 5.45x39's are as innefective as 5.56 NATO.

The conclusion: the shorten burrel with 5.56/5.45 mm is bad idea. I should never go to fight with shorten barrel, low caliber weapon. You need at least 7.62 mm to be sure for your shorten barrel weapon effectiveness. I can offer 7.62x39 mm AK-104 for you. It's exellent weapon. Apropos, the US still has no shorten barrel option for their 7.62x45 mm round. They are actively depeloping a new rifle with shorten barrel option for 7.62, but the design is not ready.
Image

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Postby JCage » 07 Oct 2007 03:43

This should make Rahul M happy. Hope they come out with a more compact Mk2 version with advanced ammo in due time.

http://www.drdo.com/labs/arma/index.shtml

ITEMS DEVELOPED, AWAITING PRODUCTION
125mm FSAPDS (Soft Core) Mk-II Ammunition.

125mm FSAPDS (Practice) Ammunition for T-72 Tank

5.56mm INSAS Rifle Folding Butt.

5.56mm INSAS LMG Folding Butt Rifle.

Under Barrel Grenade Launcher (UBGL)

30 mm - HE Grenade for AGS-17

Multi Mode Grenade


Image

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Postby ParGha » 07 Oct 2007 16:48

JCage wrote:Image


Nice! Is this supposed to be the Indo-Turkish joint venture? Or was it only for UBGLs for Tavors? Me thinks its the latter, given the closer Israeli-Turkish relations in these matters... but one never knows. INSAS seems to be shaping up pretty well all around.

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Postby JCage » 07 Oct 2007 17:46

No, this is a local design developed by the ARDE for the INSAS and AK families.

The other UBGL seems to be for the Tavors and might be a lightweight version intended for those units alone .

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Postby Abhi K Rao » 09 Oct 2007 20:34

Hi Abhi,

The only paintball place I know of is in Bangalore. They have the standard Tippmann 98 guns. I have not been there personally but my friend has played there. You can check out there website http://www.yuyutsa.com/.

Yah I just recently got into airsoft. More than playing, I would like to collect airsoft guns. Some of them are incredibly detailed and realistic looking. Wouldn't it be cool to have a BR paintball/airsoft party? Smile


Tippman 98s are great guns. With a flat line barrel, it can pretty much out range most other paint ball guns. I myself have a custom 98 (automag). It was the first semi-automatic paint ball gun to win a world championship. I have a dye boom-stick barrel on it and an electric V loader. Ill try to get some pics up. That would be awesome to have BR party- I would def be down for paintball /airsoft.



M'not sure... As well as I can understand, the penetrating power of the two bullet burst of AN-94 is based on its effect on a ceramic plate of bodyarmor. The first bullet in the burst brokes the ceramic plate and the second - hits the target. All that effect is due to the feature of ceramics to be broken totally or partially after been hit. A ceramic plate is defending by own destruction. The armor of the vehicles is something different, its steel part is mostly enough against 5.45/5.56 mm.





Hm, I got this idea from Kahaner's text. Srry to keep using this source over and over again. Dunno how applicable it is to real life-

"With armor-piercing rounds, a salvo of well-placed two shot bursts could even penetrate tank armor".


Thx for the info/clarification on the AK-102

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Postby ArmenT » 12 Oct 2007 08:03

Folks, take a look at this unique pistol:
http://www.hunt4u.ru/tp-82.htm
Another pic here with butt stock attached:
http://www.ginklai.net/images/galerija/3944_fgfgfg.jpg

This is a TP-82, a weapon originally designed to be used by Soviet astronauts. This triple barrelled beauty is designed to fire shotgun shells, rifle bullets and flares all in the same gun. There's also a machete in the butt and it doubles as a little spade.

This little baby's been carried by all cosmonauts since 1986. This is the first mission that is flying without it :(. The weapon was intended to be used in the event that the capsule landed in an inhospitable location and the cosmonauts had to defend themselves against wild animals.

In case you think that this never happens, it happened to Alexei Leonov and Pavel Belyayev after the world's first spacewalk -- the capsule re-entered at a different angle and landed in the Urals in the middle of a snowdrift. When the cosmonauts opened the capsule door to take a look outside, they managed to attract the attention of a wolf pack and had to retreat back in. Unfortunately the capsule door wouldn't shut fully, so they had to spend the night poking at the wolves with a stick, whenever one tried to push the door open. The rescue team only reached them the next day, so they had to wait quite a while.

Ever since then, the Russians have always included a weapon with their capsules. By the way, I read in a book that they used to carry an AK for this very purpose. Anyone know if an AK-56/AK-74 was used before the TP-82 came about in 1986?

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Postby Igorr » 12 Oct 2007 23:29

Abhi K Rao wrote:
The armor of the vehicles is something different, its steel part is mostly enough against 5.45/5.56 mm.
Hm, I got this idea from Kahaner's text. Srry to keep using this source over and over again. Dunno how applicable it is to real life-
May be he meant indeed a very light vehicles, like hammer, are vulnarable to AP 5.45 mm munition. It could be closer to reality. About the armored vest tests I have read some guy from Ru Army who saw when the commanders are checking it with AN-94 . The single bullet was stoped with the west while the burst of double was not.

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Postby Aditya G » 11 Nov 2007 21:10

Whats the device attached to AK barrel?

Image

ndian policeman taking position during a gunbattle in Kashmir. Fierce fighting continued for a third straight day between troops and two Islamic militants holed up in a hotel in Indian Kashmir's main northern town, police said.(AFP/Rouf Bhat)

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Postby rkhanna » 12 Nov 2007 15:37

Whats the device attached to AK barrel?



Could it be a Laser pointer/site?

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Postby ParGha » 12 Nov 2007 20:49

Recently I was browsing through this:
Warrior: A Visual History of the Fighting Man
and I came across a very interesting claim that in about late 17th Century India had around 4 million+ matchlocks distributed almost throughout the country. Apparently even farmers went out the fields with a loaded matchlock tied to the plough because of lack of L&O in the country!

Just some trivia I found interesting.

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Postby Logan » 12 Nov 2007 22:40

More likely its just a weight to depress the barrel when it rises due to recoil.

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Postby sarab » 14 Nov 2007 19:52

hello i had seen one temporarily road sign on Dhola kuna Ring road {DElhi cant area,New Delhi}side

WAY TO SNIPER RIFLE TRIAL
DRAGNOV SVD 7.62

i THINK Way sign is for inder puri firing range situated in middle of rig area of delhi cant brarar squre area.

Any information on that What is going with this rifle is it new version or modified old one :?:

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Postby krishnan » 14 Nov 2007 20:46

Most prolly some pvt company?

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Postby Aditya G » 16 Nov 2007 17:51

Anti-tank gun seized in J&K

Srinagar: An 82 mm anti-tank gun with an effective firing range of 500 metres was recovered on Thursday from a forest hideout in Kupwara district, in the first siezure of a heavy artillery weapon of this calibre in Jammu and Kashmir. — PTI


ID the 82 mm 'gun'? :?:

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Postby Raymond » 16 Nov 2007 18:14

Aditya G wrote:
Anti-tank gun seized in J&K

Srinagar: An 82 mm anti-tank gun with an effective firing range of 500 metres was recovered on Thursday from a forest hideout in Kupwara district, in the first siezure of a heavy artillery weapon of this calibre in Jammu and Kashmir. — PTI


ID the 82 mm 'gun'? :?:

Most probably a Type 78 Chinese RCL gun.

http://www.sinodefence.com/army/crewser ... 120mm1.asp

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Postby Kakarat » 16 Nov 2007 19:41


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Postby khukri » 16 Nov 2007 20:41

url
wrong url - posting article from Defense-Aerospace:
Deadly Precision: Snipers Get New Longer Range Rifles


(Source: UK Ministry of Defence; issued Nov. 14, 2007)



Snipers in the Army, Royal Marines and RAF Regiment are to get a new rifle that will give them lethal precision at even greater distances under a £4M contract announced today.

The British firm Accuracy International Ltd will supply 580 rifles with day telescopic sights for snipers across the services, which will fire a larger calibre bullet than the existing weapon.

The new rifle is being supplied as part of a broader Sniper System Improvement (SSI) programme to give UK snipers more power, precision and stealth than ever before. All-weather new advanced day and night sights will mean snipers can operate round the clock in difficult conditions, and laser technology will allow distant targets to be accurately located.

Baroness Taylor, Minister for Defence Equipment and Support said:

"We are committed to providing our troops on the front line with the equipment they need.

"Military snipers provide vital capability on operations, defeating the enemy and protecting our troops on the ground. In response to feedback from operations we are investing in new sniper equipment. The first contract is for the new longer range rifle and day sight, and we expect to start taking deliveries of this kit early next year."

Training units will familiarise themselves with the weapon and how it works with other parts of the sniper system. The rifle is due to be ready for operational use next spring.


BACKGROUND NOTES:
1. Accuracy International Ltd is based in Portsmouth

2. Day sights are manufactured by Schmidt & Bender

3. Other elements of the Sniper System Improvement programme include night sights, spotting scopes, laser range finders and tripods, and will be sourced from a variety of suppliers taking the total procurement value to over £11 million.

SNIPER RIFLE: Long Range Rifle L115A3
-- Calibre: 8.59mm
-- Weight: 6.8kg
-- Length: 1300mm
-- Muzzle velocity: 936m/s
-- Feed: 5-round box
-- Effective range: 1100m plus
Last edited by khukri on 17 Nov 2007 18:40, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby vvijay » 16 Nov 2007 20:49

A few Rpg-7s and iglas to BLA should take care og this little anti-tank threat?

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Postby Aditya G » 22 Nov 2007 17:48

bullpup insas

Image

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Postby Raj Malhotra » 22 Nov 2007 18:22

Aditya G wrote:bullpup insas

Image



I think this image is almost 2 years old But unfortunately there is no news about these 2 bullpub variants of INSAS thereafter.

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Postby Rudranathh » 22 Nov 2007 18:23

Aditya G wrote:bullpup insas

Image


:D :D :D

Thanks for posting the pictures. BTW where did u get the picture from?

The title of the picture as "bulpupinsasbg2".

Does that mean there is another picture which is "bulpupinsasbg1"?

If there is another picture of Insas in bullpup config pls post it.

Thanks.

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Postby Aditya G » 22 Nov 2007 18:31

Hi Raj, yep you are right, these days thanks to some free time I am looking thru all the stuff I have carefully stashed away in a hard disk. Honestly I was surprised to find this one 8)

Hi Rudra, sorry mate but this is the only one i have. Probably from Sainik Samachar.

Raj Malhotra wrote:
Aditya G wrote:bullpup insas

I think this image is almost 2 years old But unfortunately there is no news about these 2 bullpub variants of INSAS thereafter.

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Postby Aditya G » 22 Nov 2007 18:35

Raj, do you think this is a laser pointer?

Aditya G wrote:Whats the device attached to AK barrel?

Image

ndian policeman taking position during a gunbattle in Kashmir. Fierce fighting continued for a third straight day between troops and two Islamic militants holed up in a hotel in Indian Kashmir's main northern town, police said.(AFP/Rouf Bhat)

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Postby Rudranathh » 22 Nov 2007 18:42

Aditya G wrote:Hi Rudra, sorry mate but this is the only one i have. Probably from Sainik Samachar.


Ok, no problem. Here is something more on the indian small arms.


5.56 mm Modern Submachine Carbine and Ammunition

Image

Introduction of soft-body armour has rendered 9 mm carbine, operational with Indian Army, ineffective. DRDO has developed a 5.56 mm Modern Submachine Carbine (MSMC) and its ammunition aimed at defeating enemy soldiers protected with soft-body armour at a range of 200 m.

The 5.56 mm MSMC is unique in its category with features like
*pistol grip located at CG to achieve single-hand firing capability;
*magazine feeding through pistol grip;
*retractable butt for better stability while firing; ambidextrous cocking;
*fire selector to suit left and right hand firers; and
*a three-point sling for better carrying and manoeuverability.

The weapon is lightweight, compact, robust and has proved highly accurate and reliable during user trials.

The ammunition for MSMC is of conventional type. The bullet is cylindro-ogival for better ballistics as compared to 9 mm.

A steel insert has been introduced in the tip of the bullet to achieve better penetration power.

The performance of this ammunition, in respect of remaining energy at various ranges, vis-à-vis contemporary ammunitions developed in the world, is better.

Low power ammunition technology in the 5.56 mm caliber has been developed for the first time in India.

Technologies developed for the MSMC include:
*A unique semi bull-pup weapon feed system behind the trigger mechanism,
*and retention of butt fitted in housing configuration evolved and tested to user satisfaction;
*noise-reduction technology using CFD analysis for development of silencers;
*molding of high-strength engineering plastic to manufacture components with integral features;
*reflex sight and passive night sight;
*and integration of laser spot designator on MSMC for close quarter battle (CQB).


40 mm Under Barrel Grenade Launcher

Image

The 40 mm Under Barrel Grenade Launcher (UBGL) developed by DRDO is designed keeping in view the global trend in technology for small arms from the concept of point-target capability to area-target capability.

The UBGL is a modular add on unit on Rifle 5.56 mm INSAS, which can be fitted very easily by removing hand guard of rifle and sliding the UBGL in its place and locking it. It can also be mounted on the Ak 47rifle.

Both, the main body and barrel of the UBGL are made of lightweight and high-strength aluminum alloy, which makes the UBGL easy to carry in the field conditions. Its recoil energy is 17 J, which makes it conducive to fire
from shoulder like a rifle.

The system is equipped with self-luminous sighting system for night firing. UBGL fills the gap between maximum range achieved by a hand grenade and the minimum range of a mortar, and has better accuracy unlike a mortar or a hand grenade.

The technologies 40 mm UBGLs developed for the INSAS, MSMC, and UBGL will certainly lead to an integrated dual-caliber weapon envisaged for the future soldier under SAS programme.
:D :D :D

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Postby Raj Malhotra » 22 Nov 2007 18:48

yes aditya, seems like it

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Postby Sanjay M » 10 Dec 2007 00:39

I found this videogame publisher's statistics webpage interesting. As part of their publication of game statistics on their latest game product, Team Fortress 2, they have published a

Heat Map of Kills

Scroll down towards the bottom to see it. This seems like an interesting way to use crowdsourcing in order to judge the tactical risks/vulnerabilities associated with certain environments.

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Postby Abhi K Rao » 17 Dec 2007 07:52

Some snippets on various small arms of the IA:

Enfield SMLE No.1 Mark III:

Produced in country for local use, the Indian SMLE rifle was considered rough by some users but entirely serviceable. Many were produced during World War II. It was simply an Indian made No.1 Mark III. Production began at the Ishapore plant in 1907, and continued until 1955. After 1947 the imperial marking on the SMLE was replaced with the Indian Ashoka.

SMLE Mod2A1:

India did not switch to the No.4 action as Britain did in the 1940s. Therefore, in 1955, when it was necessary to convert rifles to the 7.62 x 51mm cartridge, it had none suitable for conversion. Instead, India used the No.1 action blueprint to make new receivers out of a much tougher alloy, with better heat treating. The new rifle, the SMLE Mod2A1, was deemed strong enough for the new cartridge.With an army of nearly 1.5 million men, a large number of rifles was required. The Mod2A1 was intended as an interim arm until the new FAL-derived rifle was made, but owing to the slow progress of the FAL project, was kept in service far longer than anticipated. The Mod2A1 is distinguished from the No.1 by its square profile magazine (the SMLE magazine is tapered). Manufacture began in the mid 1950s, and the rifles were in service until the mid 1980s.


AK derivatives in Indian use:

Czech Vz.58:

Although the VZ 58 appears to be an AK clone, it is internally different. Instead of the AK’s hammer struck pin, the VZ.58’s firing pin is the striker. The VZ58 uses a pivoting locking block, attached to the bolt, to lock the action when fired. After the caliber was changed to that of the Soviet Union, the Czech produced VZ58 was chambered in the Soviet M43, 7.62 x39mm cartridge. Around a half kilo (1lb) lighter than Soviet Aks, the recoil of the VZ58 must have been heavy in full auto mode. The rifle was produced from 1958 and continued into the late 1970s.


Polish PMK-MS:


The PMK-MS is simply the updated Soviet Ak, with a sheet metal receiver and under folding stock instead of the fixed stock and forged receiver of the original. It was made in volume for use by Polish infantry and motorized infantry units that were to follow the East German and Soviet armored divisions on an anticipated invasion against Nato. The PMK-MS was made from the early 1960s until the AK-74 variants came on line in the 1970s, and used as reserve weapons until the mid-1980s. After the Polish entry to the EU and NATO, these rifles were sold as surplus and subsequently received by India. Many of the disassembled part kits have been exported to the USA for use by collectors.


The Romanian AKM :

The Romanian AKM (an improved Kalashnikov with a sheet metal receiver) is instantly recognizable by the fore grip. The forearm of the Romanian rifle has a vertical grip that is angled towards the muzzle. The AK in sustained fire makes the firer’s forearm very hot. The fore grip, besides being more ergonomic, and allowing for greater control in full auto fire, keeps the firer’s hand further from the heat. Soon after manufacture commenced in Russia, client states such as Romania were making the new version, replacing the receiver of forged steel with a metal pressing.


Bulgarian AK-47:

As with all Soviet client states, Bulgaria adopted the AK-47 for its own use. Early-issue Ak-47s for the Bulgarian army came from Poland; Bulgarian manufacture began in 1965, The Bulgarian Ak-47 is of excellent quality, enabling Bulgaria to compete with small arms sales from the Russian Federation after the break up of the USSR in 1991. The rifle remained in service from 1965 until the early 1980s. India was reported to have ordered 24,000 rifles from Bulgaria in 2004.


East German Mpi-KM:

As a soviet satellite, East Germany was expected to provide troops and build weapons for the Soviets. The East-German AK is noted by the pebble texture of synthetic furniture, in the pistol grip and butt stock. When Germany re-unified, they were of no use at all, and were either destroyed or sold as surplus. Many models were sold to India and many of the AK variants recently seen in news photos from Iraq are ex-East-German Mpi-KM rifles.


And many more still...

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Postby Abhi K Rao » 17 Dec 2007 10:09

FN 1A:

A non-licensed version of the FAL, the Indian rifle was reverse engineered and adapted to local tooling and dimensional practices, so parts did not interchange easily with other FALs. Without the FN licensing and support, initial production was small, and the rifle was rough at first. However, the basic design was solid. After a few years, FN 1As were solid, reliable, and coming of the production lines in sufficient numbers for domestic use. By the mid 1980s the FN1a was showing its age, and India started the INSAS programme. Delays in production led to the continued use of ageing FN 1A rifles and the interim purchase of AKM rifles from various ex-Warsaw Pact countries. Introduced in Indian service in 1963, the FN 1A did not replace the SMLE Mod2A1 for a number of years. It lasted in regular service to the mid 1990s and continues to see service in the hands of police and other government agencies. The Commonwealth FALs are known as “inch patternâ€
Last edited by Abhi K Rao on 19 Dec 2007 05:27, edited 2 times in total.

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Postby ArmenT » 17 Dec 2007 11:13

<nitpick>
I think the FN 1A and the L1A1 are both referring to the same weapon actually (IIRC, India didn't use the L1A1, only the 1A). The L1A1 was actually the British version of the Fabrique Nationale (FN) FAL in which the MOD had incorporated several modifications to suit their own needs. The Indian 1A SLR was based on the L1A1 rather than the original FAL, but it had some differences of its own. For one thing, most of its parts were slightly different dimensions which made them non-interchangable with both the FN FAL and the L1A1. Incidentally, neither Enfield nor FN were happy with what was going on since the rifle was reverse-engineered and neither was getting any royalties from 1A production.
</nitpick>

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Postby rkhanna » 18 Dec 2007 03:18

@Abhi... No mention of the UZI and MP-5 or the INSAS series in the above..

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Postby Abhi K Rao » 18 Dec 2007 06:54

@Abhi... No mention of the UZI and MP-5 or the INSAS series in the above..



Hey boss, still some other random IA guns that are currently WIP. I got 4 wisdom teeth removed this morning :( and im b/t pain killer induced naps. Will have a couple more up 2m :)


Arment,

thx for the clarification. will update that 2m-

-Abhi

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Postby d_berwal » 18 Dec 2007 08:45

There was a programe on Tavor on discovery channel - Future wepons yesterday

demonstration was quite impressive

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Postby Abhi K Rao » 19 Dec 2007 03:34

INSAS:

An amalgam of three different rifles, built in India for use by its armed forces, the Indian National Small Arms System (INSAS) has the gas system and general layout of the AK, the gas regulator of the FAL, and a cocking handle on the upper left side like that of the Heckler & Koch G3. Adopted to replace the ageing stock of FAL rifles, it is a recent introduction and one intended for the usual triumvirate: rifle, carbine, and squad automatic weapon. Production began in the late 1990s and the INSAS is the present issue weapon.


Sten & Sterling SMG:

It is a paradoxical fact that Britain, who refused to contemplate the use of ‘gangster guns’ before 1939, eventually became a major supplier of sub-machine guns to the rest of the world. Over 3 million stens were made during WWII and distributed freely to commonwealth and occupied countries. In post war years the Sterling, which replaced the Sten in British service, has been adopted by over 90 military forces and has been manufactured under license in several countries. The Sten introduced the concept of cheap, almost ‘disposable’ weapons, while the Sterling showed how a simple design could be made robust and reliable. The Sten provides a cyclical rate of fire of 540 rounds of 9mm ammunition per minute and operates on a simple blowback method. The loaded magazine is inserted into the magazine housing assembly and the weapon is prepared for firing by pulling back the cocking handle, thus compressing the return spring. When the trigger is pressed the breech block is released and shoots forward due to the pressure from the spring, driving a cartridge into the chamber (by means of feed ribs on the block); the cartridge is then detonated by the firing pin. Inertia and pressure from the spring keep the breech block closed until the bullet has left the barrel when the remaining pressure drives the spent cartridge case and breech block assembly back. The cartridge case is ejected, a new round pushed in line for feeding, and the firing process repeated.

The Patchett became the official British sub-machine gun on 18 September 1953. Although referred to as the Patchett in the Army estimates for 1954-55, it is popularly known as the Sterling, since it has always been manufactured by the Sterling armament company of Dagenham. In addition, however, over 160,000 were manufactured by the Royal Ordnance Factory Fazackerly. The standard production model L2A1 as used by the British and other armies is a blowback weapon feeding from a side mounted curved box magazine. The Sten’s principal disability lay in its magazine, and the Sterling had been carefully designed to avoid stoppages. The cartridge follower carries roller bearings to reduce friction, and the entry is angled so that the cartridge cannot align with the firing pin until it has entered the gun chamber. A folding metal butt is provided, and a pistol grip at the point of balance. The barrel is surrounded by a perforated jacket which acts as a forward grip.


UZI:

The Czech CZ23 was an influential sub machine gun and its hollow bolt design was widely copied. One of the first and certainly most famous copies was the Israeli Uzi. During the 1948 Arab-Israeli war the Israeli army was poorly provided with sub machine guns (most of what they had were old British Stens) and Israeli troops felt the lack of them in the close quarter fighting encountered in the campaign. Shortly after the war ended Major Uziel Gal set to work to examine existing SMGs and design one for Israeli production. Working swiftly, Gal produced a weapon – the UZI- which entered service in 1951. The most striking aspect of the Uzi was its small size and compact appearance, compared to most designs which preceded it, this being due to the adoption of the telescoping bolt and the magazine in the pistol grip. The Uzi bolt is square in section and hollowed out at its front end so that it wraps around the barrel, allowing the barrel to be set well back into the body. Construction is largely of steel pressings and heat resistant plastics, and the tolerances are sufficiently liberal to allow the gun to go on working in combat conditions where dust and sand are prevalent. A press in piece at the rear of the pistol grip acts an effective safety device, only allowing the bolt to move forward if the weapon is being firmly held, so avoiding accidents if the weapon is dropped or allowed to fall on its butt. Originally, the Uzi had a wooden stock but this was soon replaced by a folding steel one, and in 1960 the gun was further modified by the fitment of a larger bolt-retracting handle and an improved fire selector catch. The Uzi has been widely admired for its compactness and reliability and it is license built in Belgium by FN.

MP5:

Since World War II the German arms manufacturers, Walther and Heckler and Koch have produced their own sub machine guns. The Walther MP-L/MP-K has a rather unusual shape since the barrel is below the tubular gun body. This is because the body serves to contain a large cylindrical section of the bolt, below which is a small appendage which actually loads and fires the cartridge. This allows much of the mass of the bolt to overhang the barrel at the moment of firing, a variation of the overhung bolt technique. The Walther is produced in 2 versions, the Standard MP-: and the short barreled MP-K, and like most modern SMGs has a folding stock. The Heckler and Koch MP5 are unusual in that it is a delayed blowback gun firing from a locked breech. The bolt is similar in some respects to the Walther design, with a large mass projecting over the barrel for compactness, but it is locked by two rollers engaging in recesses in the body, and these must be withdrawn from the recesses before the breech block can move backwards. The delay is extremely short; this arrangement makes this weapon much more accurate than the vast majority of SMGs. A number of MP5 variants have been produced: the MP5A2 with a fixed stock; the MP5A3 with a sliding metal stock; the MP5 SD silenced version; the MP5K, a specially designed counter insurgency model which dispenses with a stock and has a shortened barrel with a second handgrip mounted forward of the magazine.



Dragunov SVD:

The gas operated, short-stroke, rotating bolt, semi-automatic SVD (Snaiperskaya Vintovka Dragunova, or Dragunov sniper rifle) was adopted by the Soviet military in 1963. It can use any kind of standard 7.62mm x 54R ammunition, but a primary round specially developed for the SVD sniper-grade cartridge has a steel core bullet. The SVD is extremely reliable in all conditions, and has seen action in Afghanistan and Chechnya. If the PSO-1 optical sight with illuminated reticle is damaged, the soldier has back up adjustable iron sights. Unusually for a sniper weapon, it takes the standard AK-47 bayonet. The rifle has a 10 round detachable box magazine that gives a maximum rate of fire of 30 rpm or aimed fire of three to five seconds. More a designated Marksman rifle (DMK) than a sniper rifle, the SVD is a solid, if unspectacular, short to medium range sniping rifle that is effective up to 500-600 meters.

ssmitra
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Postby ssmitra » 21 Dec 2007 21:18

This may be a completely Naive observation but it seems to me that apart from the Tavor and INSAS all Main Assault rifles of the Indian Army were mostly bought as surplus or cheap copies. Is this a result of the Raj mindset where the Royal Indian Army were given mostly hand me down's from the Royal Army.

To anyone's knowledge has there ever been a comprehensive trial for an assault rifle like that of other weapon systems. for example was the INSAS ever tested directly against the more modern versions of the AK like the polish Beryl or the AEK-971. I am not trying to argue the pro's and cons of the INSAS but just whether it was a no choice upgrade or was a oreferred upgrade by the army

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Postby ParGha » 21 Dec 2007 22:48

ssmitra wrote:This may be a completely Naive observation but it seems to me that apart from the Tavor and INSAS all Main Assault rifles of the Indian Army were mostly bought as surplus or cheap copies. Is this a result of the Raj mindset where the Royal Indian Army were given mostly hand me down's from the Royal Army.


Let me de-construct your argument chronologically: Except for a brief interlude between 1860-90 Indian soldiers were individually armed with same weapons as the British soldiers... the big difference was in crew-serve weapons like machine-guns, medium and field artillery. In 1947 an Indian soldier was armed with exactly the same Lee Enfield .303, Sten SMG or Webley revolvers; the difference was in availability of Brens, Vickers and so forth.

Most British troops in Korean War still carried .303s like Indian did in 1962, but the big difference was that the Chinese had upgraded to SKS copies (as had the Brits to FN FAL/SLRs) in the 5 year window while Indians were still with .303s. Indians upgraded to FAL/SLRs by 1965, though many units still carried .303s or A2s (Enfields in 7.62x51mm NATO). India also began making fire-support really available at the same time with the FN MMGs... (it was a decision which Americans would replicate in 1980s by abandoning the M60s, just to dispell your notions). INSAS is the third main rifle adopted in the Indian Army.

PS: Tavor and AKs, are specific purpose weapons... completely different league.

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Postby ssmitra » 21 Dec 2007 23:29

ParGha wrote:
ssmitra wrote:This may be a completely Naive observation but it seems to me that apart from the Tavor and INSAS all Main Assault rifles of the Indian Army were mostly bought as surplus or cheap copies. Is this a result of the Raj mindset where the Royal Indian Army were given mostly hand me down's from the Royal Army.


Let me de-construct your argument chronologically: Except for a brief interlude between 1860-90 Indian soldiers were individually armed with same weapons as the British soldiers... the big difference was in crew-serve weapons like machine-guns, medium and field artillery. In 1947 an Indian soldier was armed with exactly the same Lee Enfield .303, Sten SMG or Webley revolvers; the difference was in availability of Brens, Vickers and so forth.

Most British troops in Korean War still carried .303s like Indian did in 1962, but the big difference was that the Chinese had upgraded to SKS copies (as had the Brits to FN FAL/SLRs) in the 5 year window while Indians were still with .303s. Indians upgraded to FAL/SLRs by 1965, though many units still carried .303s or A2s (Enfields in 7.62x51mm NATO). India also began making fire-support really available at the same time with the FN MMGs... (it was a decision which Americans would replicate in 1980s by abandoning the M60s, just to dispell your notions). INSAS is the third main rifle adopted in the Indian Army.

PS: Tavor and AKs, are specific purpose weapons... completely different league.


Hi Pargha, Thanks for the reply. Like I said a naive observation. so lets leave out the main units of the IA and talk about the COIN troops. With that I am including the para-mil units too. What has been their principal source for small arms. Surplus buy outs or testing and then placing orders.

Also can you explain what you mean by "(it was a decision which Americans would replicate in 1980s by abandoning the M60s"

and BTW no notions here, I am not even an armchair warrior just a BRF junkie


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