Small Arms Thread

ParGha
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Postby ParGha » 22 Dec 2007 01:24

ssmitra wrote:Hi Pargha, Thanks for the reply. Like I said a naive observation. so lets leave out the main units of the IA and talk about the COIN troops. With that I am including the para-mil units too. What has been their principal source for small arms. Surplus buy outs or testing and then placing orders.

Also can you explain what you mean by "(it was a decision which Americans would replicate in 1980s by abandoning the M60s"


Honestly, the procurement processes for COIN and central police forces were done in what appears to be short-term, stop-gap attitude. The demand, like the threat that drove the forces' demand, came up unexpectedly. It can happen to anyone - even those flush with money and have a global supply chain eager to step in to their standards (ex. Taiwanese and Israeli companies have been contracted to supply 5.56x45mm rounds to Americans because of unexpected violence in Iraq). In their defense, I should add that there hasn't been as significant improvements in global small-arms standards to totally condemn those purchases. (In fact, some of the later purchases might have even been performance driven - seeing how many of the compact AKs are used more in up-scaled SMG roles by Indian forces than down-scaled main battle rifle role assault rifles are originally designed for... but that is pure speculation on my part).

The US Military's decision to adopt FN MAG as M240 in 1980s to replace M60s was preceeded by decades, by many countries - including India (MG 2s), who had evaluated it as a superb medium machine gun. Just a small example on how poor militaries can still make well-thought-out decisions in their small arms procurement.

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Postby Abhi K Rao » 23 Dec 2007 16:45

The US Military's decision to adopt FN MAG as M240 in 1980s to replace M60s was preceeded by decades, by many countries - including India (MG 2s), who had evaluated it as a superb medium machine gun.



Def agree that the FN was much superior to the M-60. I think one of the main reasons was because of the lack of a gas regulator in the M-60. This increased the gun’s tendency to jam and also would sometimes result in a ‘run away’ situation, where working parts went back far enough to feed, chamber and fire a round but not far enough to be engaged by the sear. Even without pressure on the trigger, the gun kept firing and only thing one could do is hold on to the belt to prevent it from feeding more bullets. Moreover, the bipod and gas cylinder were permanently attached to the barrel and made barrel changing after 200 rounds a difficult process. To handle the barrel, the support soldier had to wear a mitten and this process was exacerbated when servicemen would lose or misplace their mittens.. Also, key components in the operating group such as the firing pin were prone to fracturing. A lighter version of the gun named M60E3 was produced but it still had many problems. The lightened gun was less reliable and would burn out if 200 or 300 rounds were fired on fully automatic. FN mag was a great choice.



Just a small example on how poor militaries can still make well-thought-out decisions in their small arms procurement.



Another example of this could be seen in the Carl Gustav RCL. The US Airborne also utilizes this weapon; however, certain other branches (i.e Marines) choose to continue with the LAW/AT-4. India procured the Gustav and has produced it for ages. Even back in Desert Storm, the Marines stationed around Khafji realized the lack of effective light anti-armor weapon. I think HEAT equipped 84mm rounds could have done much more than the disposable anti-armor rockets that just bounced off the T-62/T-55/59/69s.

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Postby Aditya G » 25 Dec 2007 08:01

Indian paras in exercise equipped with M-4 carbine

Image

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Postby rkhanna » 25 Dec 2007 13:04

Indian paras in exercise equipped with M-4 carbine


Those are Indian Para's cross training with Thai Soldiers. The M-4's belong to the Thai Army.

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Postby Aditya G » 25 Dec 2007 17:28

M-4s are available in their inventory.

rkhanna wrote:
Indian paras in exercise equipped with M-4 carbine


Those are Indian Para's cross training with Thai Soldiers. The M-4's belong to the Thai Army.

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Postby vvijay » 25 Dec 2007 17:54

As far as I know IA does not use M-4. Its INSAS or AK variants.

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Postby rkhanna » 25 Dec 2007 20:20

M-4s are available in their inventory


I have asked this question to an Indian Army Officer (Family friend) and there are no M-4s in the Inventory. M-4s were considered for the MARCOS at one point few years ago but nothing came off it.

We however do have a sprinkling of Colt Commando Carbines.

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Postby Ajay K » 25 Dec 2007 22:14

Folks, meet the new Chinese assult rifle QBZ-95 / 97.
Also a corner shotvariant.
The Chinese soldiers exercising along our soldiers are sporting the QBZ-95.

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Postby Abhi K Rao » 26 Dec 2007 00:01

I have asked this question to an Indian Army Officer (Family friend) and there are no M-4s in the Inventory. M-4s were considered for the MARCOS at one point few years ago but nothing came off it.

We however do have a sprinkling of Colt Commando Carbines.



Was just about to ask about that...thanks for clearing that up!

A couple of years back, I went to the independence day parade in Hyderabad and there were police everywhere to protect the CM. Anyways, one of the policemen caught my eye and I realized he was holding a M-79 grenade launcher. Managed to take a good pic of it but it is some where in storage. When I'm back in CA i will dig through the boxes for that and various other photos. Anyway, I was wondering if the M-79 is a commonly distributed weapon in the police force or other branches.

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Postby p_saggu » 26 Dec 2007 00:42

It is indeed amazing that the chinese blatently copy/xerox any western / russian / superior weapon they lay their hands on without bothering with IPR (IPR=What a Laugh)
Here are a few examples...
The Agusta Mangusta attack Helicoptor
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The new chinese attack helicopter
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Chinese CQ / M311 assault rifle: everything down to the rotating bolt and magazines is a xerox copy of the M-16.
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Copy of the M-4 carbine.
Image

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Postby Aditya G » 26 Dec 2007 19:54

"Whatever be the colour of the cat it catches the mouse" :roll:

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Postby Abhi K Rao » 27 Dec 2007 03:21

Polish PMK and Romanian AKM (both in service with the IA):


Image



Image


Russian Mine + Grenades(not 100% sure but I think in service with IA):


Image



Image

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Postby JCage » 05 Jan 2008 08:45

ARMADA INTL, APRIL 07
Assault rifles in a 5.56 mm evolution: the fielding of new designs and the upgrade of existing weapons will ensure that 5.56 mm remains the predominant assault rifle calibre.
The perceived shortcomings of the 5.56 x 45 mm Nato SS109/US M855 round in the US armed forces-led campaign in Afghanistan has provoked the fiercest debate about the optimum calibre for assault rifles since the US Army decided that the 5.56 mm M193 cartridge would supersede the Nato 7.62 mm cartridge as the standard calibre for its assault rifles 40 years ago. The pressing demands of the Global War on Terror, which is being fought largely in urban areas in Iraq, mean that new and upgraded 5.56 mm assault rifles will equip the American military forces and their Nato and non-Nato allies for at least another generation. However, these will be augmented by a more generous allocation of 5.56 mm and 7.62 mm marksman/sniper rifles than has previously been the case, this to achieve precision engagements at ranges out to 800 metres. Efforts are also underway to field air-bursting 40 mm and possibly 25 mm shoulder-launched grenades to defeat targets in defilade.

From the mid-1990s the US Army has funded the Objective Individual Combat Weapon (OICW) project to develop a weapon combining a 5.56 mm rifle and 20 mm (later 25 mm) grenade launcher with a sophisticated full-solution fire control system to replace the 5.56 mm M16 rifle/M4 carbine families and the M203 40 mm under-barrel grenade launcher. Alliant Techsystems (ATK), Heckler & Koch (HK) and Brashear were teamed on the project. To expedite a new weapon into the hands of troops fighting abroad the army restructured the programme in 2002 with the intention of first fielding the HK modular XM8 5.56 mm carbine family, then the ATK 25 mm Airburst Weapon System and finally the XM29 Integrated Airburst Weapons System (as the OICW was renamed). The service later abandoned this strategy and announced its intention to seek an 'Increment 1' 5.56 mm small arms family consisting of a carbine, a special compact weapon, designated marksman weapon and a light machine gun (LMG) capable of firing standard US M855 and M856 ammunition. Notifications to this effect were issued and twice suspended.


The army's present strategy is to sustain and improve its existing family of small arms in the near term (to two years) through the increased issue of the Colt M4 carbine and related accessories, field a replacement for the FN Herstal 5.56 mm Minimi LMG (type classified as the M249 Squad Automatic Weapon) in the medium term (two to five years) and look for a new family of small arms in the long term (beyond five years). This was good news for Colt Defense and also Knights Armament, which produces the Modular Weapon System (MWS) kit for the M16/M4 and the Special Operations Modification (Spomod) kit for the M4A1 carbines used by various US Special Operations Command (USsocom) units. Both kits include MIL-STD 1913 (Picatinny) rails, forward grips, various day and night sights, lights, laser points and other accessories. The award of an $ 80.7 million contract by the US Army to Knights in January 2005 was followed in February 2006 by a $110.8 million award for the MWS.

Colt received a $ 242,468,789 firm-fixed-price multi-year contract for M4/M4A1 carbines in June 2006. The company is not scheduled to complete an October 2003 $123 million contract for 124,803 M4/M4A1 carbines until the end of September. The M4/M4A1 carbines and the M16A4 rifles now being delivered to the US Marine Corps are the fourth generation of the M16 to enter service following the Vietnam War vintage M16 and improved M16A1, and the M16A2 fielded in the 1980s. Present generation M16s/M4s are 'flat-top' weapons that incorporate the MIL-STD 1913 rail on top and can be fitted with additional rails from the MWS or Sopmod kits at the 3, 6 and 9 o'clock positions. The basic M4 carbine measures 838 mm in length with the stock extended (757 mm retracted) and weighs 2.52 kg without magazine fitted, while the M16A4 is 990 mm long and weighs 3.987 kg with a loaded 30-round magazine.

The M16 family is the most widely used 5.56 mm weapon, in service with more than 50 countries. In May 2005 Colt boosted its design and production capabilities when it acquired Canadian firm Diemaco (now Colt Canada), which produces the C7 family, a derivative of the M16A2, for the Canadian, Danish and Dutch armed forces and various European special forces units. Colt Canada is competing with HK in Norway's 5.56 mm assault rifle competition.

The USsocom (Socom) will soon take delivery of low-rate initial production (Lrip) examples of its new 5.56-mm/7.62 mm Special operations forces Combat Assault Rifle (Scar) from Belgium's FN Herstal. After watching the US Army's tortuous efforts to field a new rifle Socom developed a joint operational requirements document for a new family of small arms in 2002, as it was convinced that the only way to field a 'weapon designed for SOF by SOF' was to manage the programme itself. In January 2003 the Naval Surface Warfare Center at Crane (NSWC Crane), Indiana released a 'Source Sought Announcement' to industry and, after briefings and discussions with ten small arms manufacturers in mid-year, released a solicitation to industry the following January. Competing designs were delivered for evaluation in June 2004 and on 5 November Socom awarded FN Herstal an indefinite delivery/indefinite quantity contract for up to 84,000 5.56 mm Scar-L (Light) weapons and 15,000 7.62 mm Scar-H (Heavy) weapons. The fiscal year 2007 defence budget includes $ 1.8 million for 600 Lrip examples of each variant for operational testing with full-rate production expected to begin in FY08. The Scar project manager is justified in describing the project as, << the next evolutionary step in small arms development at a revolutionary pace >>.

The requirement was influenced by the experience of American special operation forces units in Afghanistan, as they appreciated the advantages of the M4A1 when operating in caves and other close terrain but also identified the need for a more powerful cartridge than the Nato 5.56 mm round in certain situations. The Scar-L is optimised for Nato 5.56 mm ammunition while the Scar-H is an open architecture design that will accommodate changing calibres from the standard Nato 7.62 x 51 mm configuration. The initial calibre change is expected to the Russian 7.62 x 39 mm calibre, which would allow SOF combatants to use 'pick-up' 7.62 mm Russian standard ammunition found in operational situations.

The Scar-L can be fitted with a 254-mm close quarter combat (CQC) barrel, a 355.6-mm standard barrel and a 457.2 sniper variant (SV) barrel, while the Scar-H has 330.2, 406.4 and 508 mm barrels. The CQC barrels are intended for use at combat ranges up to 200 metres, while the standard barrels are designed for combat at 300 to 500 metres and the SV barrel is intended to engage targets between 500 and 800 metres. The user is able to change barrels in less than five minutes with the aid of a special wrench. Both weapons are fitted with Picatinny rails at the 12, 3, 6 and 9 o'clock positions that are compatible with 'nearly' all of the components of the Sopmod kit and the new 12-gauge XM26 Modular Accessory Shotgun System. The third element of the Scar project is the 40 mm Enhanced Grenade Launcher Module (EGLM) that can be fitted to the 6 o'clock rail on both Scar rifles in any barrel length configuration. The Scar's modular design provides 90% ergonomic compatibility and 60% parts commonality between the two rifles.

As special operations units from each of the services gain experience with the Scar no doubt this will influence the services when they seek replacements for M16/M4 series weapons across the force structure. Besides the worldwide military community FN Herstal believes the weapon offers << interesting potential for law enforcement and commercial applications >>.

FN Herstal has secured two major orders for its new 5.56 mm F2000 Modular Assault Weapon System, which was introduced in 2001. The Saudi Arabian National Guard selected the weapon in 2005 and Slovenia became the first Nato country to adopt the F2000 as its standard assault rifle with the 2006 purchase of 6500 weapons following a year-long competitive evaluation. Deliveries to Slovenia will be completed by the end of this year. The weapon has also been acquired by the special forces of several countries, including Belgium. Modularity was a primary objective in developing the bullpup weapon. The F2000 is fitted with a x1.6 optical sight which can be removed to expose a Picatinny rail while the forward hand guard can be removed so attachments such as 40 mm grenade launcher, laser aiming modules and a 12-gauge shotgun can be mounted. A computerised FCS which is now under development can be added to the standard sight unit for use with both the 5.56 mm and 40 mm weapons. The F2000 is 694 mm long and weighs 3.6 kg with an empty magazine.

HK will be watching closely for an opportunity to revive its XM8 design, which was derived from HK's G36 rifle which entered service with the Bundeswehr in 1995 following the cancellation of the company's 4.73 mm G11 rifle with its unique caseless ammunition. Although the weapon is conventional in layout, HK has made extensive use of polymer-based plastics to reduce weight and has emphasised a modular design. The standard rifle measures 998 mm with the butt extended, 758 mm with the skeleton buttstock folded and weighs 3.6 kg without magazine. In service with German special forces is the G36K, which measures 860 mm in length (615 mm folded). Incorporated in the G36's integral carrying handle is a x3 optical sight with a x1 red dot sight mounted above. The translucent 30-round plastic magazines can be clipped together on the rifle to facilitate rapid changes. The AG36 40 mm under-barrel grenade launcher was developed for the G36 and has subsequently been bought by the British and US armies. The G36E export version of the weapon features a x1.5 optical sight in place of the standard sight. A light support weapon is also available with a heavier barrel and bipod. The G36 is also in service with the Spanish Army, the Portuguese Marines, the Norwegian Coastal Ranger Command, various special forces units and last year was selected to equip the Latvian Army. In June 2006 HK announced that it would end production of the HK33 and HK53 5.56 mm assault rifles and concentrate solely on the marketing of the G36.

Later this year Israel Weapon Industries (IWI), formerly the Small Arms Division of Israel Military Industries, will complete the delivery of an initial batch of 15,000 5.56 mm Tavor Tar-21 (Tavor Assault Rifle--1st Century) bullpup assault rifles to the Israel Defence Force. The Tavor was selected by Israel in 2003, following an evaluation against the M4 carbine. Recruits began training on the new weapon in mid-2006 and two brigades are now equipped. In 2004 the Indian Army ordered 3074 rifles to equip special forces units and is considering the local production of the Tavor to equip additional special forces and airborne units. The Republic of Georgia has also received an undisclosed quantity for its special forces with additional orders expected.
IWI has worked closely with the IDF Ground Forces Command since 1993 to develop the Tavor as a replacement for the IDF's American M16s and M4s, and IWI 5.56 mm Galil assault rifle. Great emphasis has been given to ergonomic design, ease of maintenance and growth potential. Extensive use is made of polymer materials. A red dot reflex sight, which incorporates a red dot laser target designator, is fitted to the standard rifle. The Ctar-21 Commander Tavor, the version selected by the IDF, is 640 mm long, has a 380-mm-long barrel and weighs 4.15 kg with a loaded 30-round magazine. Other versions include the 720-mm-long Tar-21 Tavor, the Mtar-21 Micro Tavor which is 590 mm long and the Star-21 Sharpshooter Tavor, which is essentially the standard rifle fitted with a bipod and a rail to accommodate a variety of day or night telescopic sights.
The Royal Malaysian Army, which since the 1980s has used the Steyr-Mannlicher 5.56 mm Aug-A1 assault rifle built locally by SME Technologies, announced in 2006 that will replace these weapons with the M4A1, ending speculation that it would be the launch customer for the Austrian firm's A3 upgrade. The Aug was the first bullpup design to enter military service when it was introduced with the Austrian Army in 1978 and has since become the most widely fielded bullpup with almost one million weapons produced in Austria, Australia and Malaysia for customers in more than 25 countries. The basic modular design, which incorporates a x1.5 optical sight in the carrying handle, can be converted to four different variants by changing the barrel: a 626-mm-long short rifle intended for paratroopers requiring a compact weapon features a 350 mm barrel, a carbine (714 mm, 407 mm), the standard assault rifle (805 mm, 508 mm) and the heavy-barrelled light machine gun (915 mm, 621 mm), which features a bipod. An A2 model was introduced in 1997, which, along with other improvements, features a removable Picatinny rail to accommodate more powerful day and night sights. Since 2004 Steyr-Mannlicher has been producing the Aug A3, which has rails in the 3, 6, 9 and 12 o'clock positions and an interface for the M203 or Swiss Sig 40 mm grenade launchers. Thales Australia, which produced the Aug under license for the Australian and New Zealand armies, is developing a Metal Storm barrel attachment for 40 mm grenades, intended to meet the requirements of the Australian Army's Advanced Individual Solider Weapon project.

Singapore Technologies Kinetics developed its 5.56 mm Sar 21 bullpup design in the late 1990s for the Singapore Armed Forces. As is common in most modern designs extensive use is made of composite materials and high-strength plastic to reduce weight. In the standard model a x1.5 optical sight is integrated in the carrying handle and an infrared dot or visible red dot can be mounted in the hand-guard at the customer's request. Variants include the Sar 21 sharpshooter with a x3 sight, Sar 21 P-rail with the standard sight mount replaced by a MIL-STD-1913 rail, the Sar 21 Modular which incorporates a top rail and also side and bottom rails in place of the standard forestock, the Sar 21 GL which can mount the Singapore Technologies single-shot Cis 40GL 40 mm grenade launcher or the M203 and an LMG with a heavier barrel and bipod.

South Africa's Denel Land Systems unveiled its 5.56 mm CR 21 (for Compact Rifle for the 21st Century) bullpup weapon ten years ago in anticipation of a South African National Defence Force requirement to replace its Vektor 5.56 mm R4 and R5 assault rifles. However, Denel suspended the project when it became clear the South African forces did not have enough money to acquire a new weapon. Instead, they are defining the requirements for an upgrade to the R4 and Denel will no doubt leverage some of its CR 21 development work for use on this project.

In September 2006 the US Defense Security Cooperation Agency notified Congress of a possible arms sale to the government of Iraq that includes 50,750 M16A2s, 50,750 M4 carbines and 35,437,500 5.56 mm rounds. This will begin the transition away from the Soviet-era 7.62 mm AK small arms series.

The Soviet-designed 7.62 x 39 mm AK series, and its many license-produced and pirate copies, remains the most widely used rifle globally in spite of the fact that the Russian Army fielded the 5.45 x 39 mm AK-74 from the mid-1970s as a replacement. A new 5.45 mm design, classified as the Avtomat Nikonova 94 (AN94) in 1994, was intended as the replacement for the interim AK-74 range but has yet to go into series production because of Russia's budget constraints. A novel feature of the rifle is its two-round capability with a cyclic rate of 1800 rds/min as a means to minimise dispersion and ensure the incapacitation of soldiers wearing combat body armour. On full automatic the rifle has a rate of fire of 600 rds/min. The Izhevsk Arms Factory, selected to produce the AN-94, offers the Kalashnikov 'hundred' series consisting of five baseline versions: 5.56 mm Nato calibre AK-101 and Nato 7.62 mm AK103 assault rifles, the 5.56 mm Nato AK102, Russian 7.62 mm AK104 and the 5.45 mm AK105 'short assault rifles'. As yet, there are no major buyers for the new Century Arms series.

Several armies have modernised, or plan to modernise, their existing 5.56 mm weapons in parallel with 'future soldier' projects. In late 2006 the Netherlands announced plans to upgrade 30,000 of the 50,680 C7 series rifles and 1400 C8 series carbines that Colt Canada delivered in the mid-1990s. The company is undertaking an extensive modernisation of the Canadian Army's C7/C8 families. In early 2006 HK formally completed a five-year, 112 million [pounds sterling] upgrade of the 5.56 mm SA80 small arms family when the last of 178,000 rifles and 12,000 Light Support Weapons were formally handed over to the British Ministry of Defence. In 1995 HK, then owned by BAE Systems, was asked to examine improvements to the L85A1 rifle and the L86A1 LSW, which had been plagued with reliability problems since entering service in the late 1980s. Although the only noticeable external difference on the A2 standard weapons is a larger cocking handle the weapons have been extensively rebuilt with many of the internal working parts replaced with redesigned components of superior quality material. The L85A2/ L86A2 are expected to remain in British service until about 2020 and will thus be incorporated in the Future Integrated Soldier Technology system.

France's Nexter produced approximately 400,000 5.56 mm Famas F1 bullpup rifles for the French Army and export customers Djibouti, Gabon, Senegal and the United Arab Emirates. The design is one of the few bullpups that does not incorporate an optical sight as a standard feature. Production was superseded in the mid-1990s by the Famas G2 (for second generation) which, although intended primarily for the export market, was bought by the French Navy. Instead of the 25-round magazines used with the F1 the G2 accepts 30-round magazines compliant with Nato Stanag 4179. Nexter is upgrading the French Army's Famas rifles as part of the Fantassin a Equipement et Liaisons Integrees (Felin) soldier system developed by Sagem and currently being delivered to the French Army. As a first stage Nexter is converting 19,000 rifles to the low-profile configuration, enabling the weapons to accept a variety of optical devices. The full Felin configuration incorporates a man-machine interface, a second grip and a new day/night sight.




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Postby Igorr » 06 Jan 2008 02:04

JCage wrote:ARMADA INTL, APRIL 07
The Izhevsk Arms Factory, selected to produce the AN-94, offers the Kalashnikov 'hundred' series consisting of five baseline versions: 5.56 mm Nato calibre AK-101 and Nato 7.62 mm AK103 assault rifles, the 5.56 mm Nato AK102, Russian 7.62 mm AK104 and the 5.45 mm AK105 'short assault rifles'. As yet, there are no major buyers for the new Century Arms series.

Venezuela bought 30,000 7.62x39 mm AK-103's and also a whole prod line for 100,000 more under licension.

Funny vid with an American 12.7 mm in Iraq: http://smotri.com/video/view/?id=v826657c6a&lang=eng

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Postby Vick » 16 Feb 2008 05:47

Image

Looks like the INSAS LMG with 30 round mag has been operationalized...

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Postby Jaeger » 16 Feb 2008 11:15

with the BSF, no less...

one notices that the BSF is investing heavily in new kit... not just small arms but uniforms, helmets and body armour... is this a byproduct of their stint in COIN ops in J&K?

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Postby K Mehta » 16 Feb 2008 11:28

X-posting from Artillery and armour thread
OFB proposes to upgrade Bofors
The Ordnance Factory Board (OFB) has submitted a proposal to the government for upgrading the 155 mm and 105 mm artillery guns with foreign collaboration.


Moving over from small arms, ammunition and routine weapons, the ordinance factories have proposed to upgrade the controversial 155 mm Bofors gun and manufacture high technology weapons like micro assault rifle.

The Ordnance Factory Board (OFB) has submitted a proposal to the government for upgrading the 155 mm and 105 mm artillery guns with foreign collaboration.

As a technology demonstrator, the OFB has upgraded a 155 mm Bofors gun from 0.39 to 0.45 calibre with know-how from the British Aerospace Land Systems. “It will be the main attraction of our stall at the Defexpo,â€

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Postby K Mehta » 16 Feb 2008 11:38

Ordnance board wants secured railway carriages
Same story different spin

[url=http://pib.nic.in/release/release.asp?relid=35440]OFB PRODUCTS NOW GET WARRANTY

ARMY TO GET UPGRADED PINAKA ROCKETS ON FEB 27[/url]
PIB release

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Postby ranganathan » 16 Feb 2008 21:12

http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x226 ... rdoph7.jpg

IS this kalantak? Rudra had posted it earlier.

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Postby Rudranathh » 16 Feb 2008 21:53

ranganathan wrote:http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x226/RAWAgent/msmcdrdoph7.jpg

IS this kalantak? Rudra had posted it earlier.

Some data regarding the weapon in the above picture.

5.56 mm Modern Submachine Carbine and Ammunition
Introduction of soft-body armour has rendered 9 mm carbine, operational with Indian Army, ineffective. DRDO has developed a 5.56 mm Modern Submachine Carbine (MSMC) and its ammunition aimed at defeating enemy soldiers protected with soft-body armour at a range of 200 m.

The 5.56 mm MSMC is unique in its category with features like pistol grip located at CG to achieve single-hand firing capability; magazine feeding through pistol grip; retractable butt for better stability while firing; ambidextrous cocking; fire selector to suit left and right hand firers; and a three-point sling for better carrying and manoeuverability. The weapon is lightweight, compact, robust and has proved highly accurate and reliable during user trials.

The ammunition for MSMC is of conventional type. The bullet is cylindro-ogival for better ballistics as compared to 9 mm. A steel insert has been introduced in the tip of the bullet to achieve better penetration power. The performance of this ammunition, in respect of remaining energy at various ranges, vis-à-vis contemporary ammunitions developed in the world, is better. Low power ammunition technology in the 5.56 mm caliber has been developed for the first time in India.

Technologies developed for the MSMC include: -
A unique semi bull-pup weapon feed system behind the trigger mechanism,
and retention of butt fitted in housing configuration evolved and tested to user satisfaction;
noise-reduction technology using CFD analysis for development of silencers;
molding of high-strength engineering plastic to manufacture components with integral features;
reflex sight and passive night sight;
and integration of laser spot designator on MSMC for close quarter battle (CQB).


Nowhere it is mentioned that it is being developed as an replacement for INSAS rifles rather it is for the replacement of the carbines in service with IA.


Regarding the 5.56x45 mm ‘Kalantak’ Micro Assault Rifle

Sunilupa's post in Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

sunilUpa wrote:The new products and upgrades under evaluation include the 155 mm artillery gun upgrade, 105 mm mounted gun, 130 mm artillery upgradation to 155 mm calibre gun, T-72 mobility upgrade, Armoured Recovery Vehicle (ARV) on T-72/T-90 chassis, 40 mm L70 gun upgrade, 35 mm Skyshield Air Defence Gun, 5.56 mm carbine, Remote Controlled Weapon Station (RCWS), 5.56x30 mm protective carbine, 5.56x45 mm ‘Kalantak’ Micro Assault Rifle...

The OFB chairman said that the Kalantak Micro Assault Rifle would be the best in the class and become the next generation gun of the foot soldier.Link

Kalantak is being touted as an replacement for INSAS assualt rifle.

Kalantak may be some new rifle. Either an updated INSAS or an altogether different assault rifle. It cant be the one in the picture as it an carbine.

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Postby KBDagha » 16 Feb 2008 21:55

No thats MSMC, kalantak is shorter version of INSAS (carbine), poster on indiandefenceforum has posted the defexpo pics.

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Postby KBDagha » 16 Feb 2008 21:57

oh! already replied by Rudra :oops:

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Postby ranganathan » 16 Feb 2008 22:39

http://img247.imageshack.us/my.php?imag ... 009qa2.jpg
http://img132.imageshack.us/my.php?imag ... 012di8.jpg

Ok sayareakd posted this as kalantak in indiadefenceforum. He has taken a lot of pics, I am just attaching the links. If against rules let me know.

Somehow looks a lot like excalibur to me.

MSMC

http://img149.imageshack.us/my.php?imag ... 036vi0.jpg

Supposed to be in active use?

Cannon launched Guided missile (CLGM) Range 6.5 km platforms Helis and arjun??? :twisted:

http://img442.imageshack.us/my.php?imag ... 037iv7.jpg
http://img238.imageshack.us/my.php?imag ... 040tl1.jpg

Once aain all credits to sayareakd on indiadefenceforum.

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Postby Rudranathh » 16 Feb 2008 22:58

ranganathan wrote:http://img247.imageshack.us/my.php?image=16022008009qa2.jpg

Ok sayareakd posted this as kalantak in indiadefenceforum. He has taken a lot of pics, I am just attaching the links. If against rules let me know.

Somehow looks a lot like excalibur to me.

YAHOO!!!!!!!!

It is indeed looks like the excalibur but may be this rifle fires an different calibre bullet. That's why it is given new name.

And dont forget to check the rifle above it in the picture. An INSAS with an different magazine feeder, and with an holographic sight that DRDO showed in their files some time ago. Even the magazine looks like an 30 bullet magazine.

YEEEEEEEEEHAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!

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Postby sunilUpa » 16 Feb 2008 23:14

That CLGM photo looks like Lahat to me!. If true, that means we have licensed the production.

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Postby ranganathan » 16 Feb 2008 23:18

LAHAt has a loner range but yes they do look similar.

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Postby JCage » 16 Feb 2008 23:21

ranganathan wrote:Cannon launched Guided missile (CLGM) Range 6.5 km platforms Helis and arjun??? :twisted:

http://img442.imageshack.us/my.php?imag ... 037iv7.jpg
http://img238.imageshack.us/my.php?imag ... 040tl1.jpg

Once aain all credits to sayareakd on indiadefenceforum.


Darn, they moved really fast on this. That seeker is either IIR (from the Nags) or a Semi Active one developed by IRDE which they had displayed a couple of years back (WIP at that time).
CLGM means Arjun, not HELIs.

And, even though they look similar, dont think this is the LAHAT. Compare & contrast:
http://img442.imageshack.us/my.php?imag ... 037iv7.jpg
vs.
http://www.acig.org/artman/uploads/lahat.jpg

Check how the seeker is integrated into the missile body for instance.

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Postby sunilUpa » 16 Feb 2008 23:26

JCage wrote:And, no- this is not the LAHAT. Compare & contrast:
http://img442.imageshack.us/my.php?imag ... 037iv7.jpg

Great going, no need to depend on the LAHAT or Refleks anymore. :wink:


I compared to this

On second thought, the nose does look slightly different. Good job OFB!

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Postby JCage » 16 Feb 2008 23:30

sunilUpa wrote:
JCage wrote:And, no- this is not the LAHAT. Compare & contrast:
http://img442.imageshack.us/my.php?imag ... 037iv7.jpg

Great going, no need to depend on the LAHAT or Refleks anymore. :wink:


I compared to this

On second thought, the nose does look slightly different. Good job OFB!


That looks quite closer, but if it was LAHAT OFB should have named it as such.

If this isnt LAHAT, this is clearly an ARDE/IRDE project. I have a picture of their seeker somewhere from earlier, and it seems very similar. Might have copied Lahats layout though, hence the similarity.

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Postby JCage » 16 Feb 2008 23:34

Could be a different variant of the LAHAT, though- this image seems very similar.

Image

Curious and curiouser.

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Postby sunilUpa » 16 Feb 2008 23:34

JCage wrote:
sunilUpa wrote:
JCage wrote:And, no- this is not the LAHAT. Compare & contrast:
http://img442.imageshack.us/my.php?imag ... 037iv7.jpg

Great going, no need to depend on the LAHAT or Refleks anymore. :wink:


I compared to this

On second thought, the nose does look slightly different. Good job OFB!


That looks quite closer, but if it was LAHAT OFB should have named it as such.

If this isnt LAHAT, this is clearly an ARDE/IRDE project. I have a picture of their seeker somewhere from earlier, and it seems very similar. Might have copied Lahats layout though, hence the similarity.


Another reason I thought we might have licensed LAHAT is that OFB gives it's own name to licensed products, like Zitara vs Micro Tavor. Did get that one wrong too? :?:

ANother problem is all images of LAHAT are of air-launched version!

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Postby JCage » 16 Feb 2008 23:53

No, you got that right. Just because it isnt called LAHAT by OFB doesnt necessarily mean it is not LAHAT. Guess we'll know only when more details come in! Or if somebody asks questions.

True, LAHAT tank round images exist, but they dont show the missile properly.

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:LAHAT-01.jpg

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Postby negi » 17 Feb 2008 00:03

Impo the difference in appearence might be due to the fact that while pics of IAI Lahat are of the air launched version and the one from OFB are CL version, the latter imo requiring some adaptor/different casing . :?:

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Postby Raj Malhotra » 17 Feb 2008 08:11

CLGM was shown on DRDO stall and not OFB. It has a laser seeker and the same was also shown. I think an indigenous product

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Postby JCage » 17 Feb 2008 14:53

If its the DRDO stall, then this is definitely a local product with the semi-active IRDE laser seeker which was revealed at AeroIndia. Good news!! This means no more reliance on LAHAT for the Arjun and future Indian tanks.

These are the IRDE developed seeker assembly & avionics:
http://img238.imageshack.us/my.php?imag ... 040tl1.jpg

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Postby JCage » 17 Feb 2008 15:05

From DRDO TFocus about IRDE, 2007:

The technology of solid-state LRF for various
applications has already been established at IRDE
and transferred to public sector undertakings where
facilities for production of these instruments have
been established. IRDE has also designed and
developed a variety of proximity sensors using
pulsed semiconductor laser diodes for increasing
lethality of bombs and missiles.
A lot of work has also been carried out on
signal processing for the detection of low level
scattered laser radiation. The technology of flash
lamp pumped LRF is presently well matured.
However
future systems will incorporate diode pumped technology
on account of their performance superiority over
lamp pumped systems. Recently a prototype of a
high repetition rate diode-pumped Nd-YAG laser
ranger designator has been developed for missile
guidance application. The technology of eye-safe
laser ranger finder systems based on optical parametric
oscillator has also been established
.


It all ties together. I had mentioned how IRDE was working on a FCS with inbuilt laser designator, that was clearly intended for this new missile.
And the designator is also mentioned above- a decoupled variant can be given to ground troops as well.

If not for the blessed two piece autoloader on the T- Tanks, we could have deployed the above fleet wide.

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Postby Rudranathh » 17 Feb 2008 15:29

In this LAHAT din everyone has forgot to look at pictures of the assault rifles.

Take a close look.

Looks like DRDO kalantak has been made in such a way that it can accept both m-16 and ak type magazines.

IMO the development is an very important thing. In behind the lines ops will be very useful when enemy magazines can be used.

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Postby JCage » 17 Feb 2008 15:39

How can a Kalantak use a 7.62*39 mm ammo mag? Is there anything specific written to that effect?

At the end of the day, Paks AK variants are 7.62 *39 types..they havent even shifted to 5.56 yet. G3's chambered for 7.62*51mm..
And China? It uses 7.62*39 for AKs and 5.8*42mm for its QBZ-95s.

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Postby JCage » 17 Feb 2008 16:17

http://dsr-nr-1.de/en/dsr1.php

India should buy around 50 of these for the NSG and others, with thermal imaging sights for night ops as well.

In addition, dedicated Dhruvs for NSG QRTs.

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Postby Rudranathh » 17 Feb 2008 16:25

JCage wrote:How can a Kalantak use a 7.62*39 mm ammo mag? Is there anything specific written to that effect?

At the end of the day, Paks AK variants are 7.62 *39 types..they havent even shifted to 5.56 yet. G3's chambered for 7.62*51mm..
And China? It uses 7.62*39 for AKs and 5.8*42mm for its QBZ-95s.


Most of the world is moving towards the 5.56 nato caliber round. Sooner or latter pakis will also have to do so due to the logistics and weight of the ammo issues. And usa right now is providing them free weapons. It may include rifles chambered to 5.56 round. Afterall usa forced the nato countries to adopt this, most likely pakis will have to follow suit.


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