Small Arms Thread

Rudranathh
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Postby Rudranathh » 17 Feb 2008 16:29

Anyone visiting DefExpo2007 please ask the name of this rifle.

Strange rifle with M16 type front sight, ak type receiver and integrated Picatinny rails for mounting other optical scopes. Magazine size must be 30- 40. The hand grips look similar to drdo's MSMC.

http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/8462 ... 012di8.jpg

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Postby JCage » 17 Feb 2008 16:36

Isnt that the Kalantak? Or is the Excalibur the Kalantak? :?:

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Postby Rudranathh » 17 Feb 2008 17:15

JCage wrote:Isnt that the Kalantak? Or is the Excalibur the Kalantak? :?:


No. It is not kalantak 07. The above rifle has an ak type mag receiver unlike kalantak.

Check these images.
Kalantak 07 is in the upper right corner. It has an distinctive magazine receiver.
http://img180.imageshack.us/img180/4408 ... 009qn1.jpg

Close up of Kalantak 07.
http://img502.imageshack.us/img502/7955 ... 010uv5.jpg

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Postby Jaeger » 17 Feb 2008 23:40

Rudranathh wrote:Anyone visiting DefExpo2007 please ask the name of this rifle.

Strange rifle with M16 type front sight, ak type receiver and integrated Picatinny rails for mounting other optical scopes. Magazine size must be 30- 40. The hand grips look similar to drdo's MSMC.

http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/8462 ... 012di8.jpg


Seems to me that this is the strange MINSAS rifle which uses new 5.56x30mm ammo... check here:

MINSAS at OFB

The OFB site example has the usual ugly wood-finish instead of the cool black and no picatinny rails, but... i think it's the same one.

The Kalantak isn't on the site at all...

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Postby ranganathan » 17 Feb 2008 23:52

Rudranathh wrote:Anyone visiting DefExpo2007 please ask the name of this rifle.

Strange rifle with M16 type front sight, ak type receiver and integrated Picatinny rails for mounting other optical scopes. Magazine size must be 30- 40. The hand grips look similar to drdo's MSMC.

http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/8462 ... 012di8.jpg



Sayareakd on indiadefence posted it as another kalantak.

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Postby Sanjay M » 18 Feb 2008 00:23

Jaeger wrote:
Rudranathh wrote:Anyone visiting DefExpo2007 please ask the name of this rifle.

Strange rifle with M16 type front sight, ak type receiver and integrated Picatinny rails for mounting other optical scopes. Magazine size must be 30- 40. The hand grips look similar to drdo's MSMC.

http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/8462 ... 012di8.jpg


Seems to me that this is the strange MINSAS rifle which uses new 5.56x30mm ammo... check here:

MINSAS at OFB

The OFB site example has the usual ugly wood-finish instead of the cool black and no picatinny rails, but... i think it's the same one.

The Kalantak isn't on the site at all...


What is the purpose of using the unconventional ammo size?
Is it to prevent others from using our own weapons against us, while obtaining ammo resupply through international black market?

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Postby JCage » 18 Feb 2008 01:14

Ammo size is chosen per function. Range, penetration and ease of manufacture all count. Resupply is always assumed to be from own stock as wartime captured stocks cant be relied upon as sabotage is always an issue.

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Postby Sanjay M » 18 Feb 2008 02:27

JCage wrote:Ammo size is chosen per function. Range, penetration and ease of manufacture all count. Resupply is always assumed to be from own stock as wartime captured stocks cant be relied upon as sabotage is always an issue.


Doesn't seem to be the case for the Naxalites.

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Postby Igorr » 18 Feb 2008 03:14

Sanjay M wrote:
JCage wrote:Ammo size is chosen per function. Range, penetration and ease of manufacture all count. Resupply is always assumed to be from own stock as wartime captured stocks cant be relied upon as sabotage is always an issue.


Doesn't seem to be the case for the Naxalites.
Ex point, Sanjay. Like this it's known that the best Russian cartrige for spec-ops rifles (9x39) was never plained for export and never sold on the market.

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Postby JCage » 18 Feb 2008 03:23

Sanjay M wrote:
JCage wrote:Ammo size is chosen per function. Range, penetration and ease of manufacture all count. Resupply is always assumed to be from own stock as wartime captured stocks cant be relied upon as sabotage is always an issue.


Doesn't seem to be the case for the Naxalites.


The Naxalites are a guerilla army, the Indian Army's regular regiments are not a guerilla force but a standing conventional force. The Rifle above is for the IA not the Maoists or Guerilla warfare, so your comment is pretty irrelevant. Nor have the Naxalites ever faced a professional armed force such as the Indian Army. At Kargil, where India fought Pak, there were instances of booby trapped ammo - given time, its standard operating procedure for all standing forces of the nature worldwide.

As such the IA are not going to replenish their ammo via battlefield scrounging but rely on a logistical arm to replenish them. As far as SF are concerned, they do use weapons which are dependent on the mission at hand. If they are heading into a situation where extended combat is possibility and resupply could be an issue, they do have the choice to rely on Ak class variants.

The OFB rifles above fall into none of the above categories, they are meant for a professional standing Army, not a guerilla force, hence ammo choice will be decided by function and ease of manufacture. Nor have the OFB ever stated that any 5.56 ammo choice was out of issues of making it proprietary or unique or things of that nature. They are a conservative design institution and tend to iteratively develop whatever is with them, and frankly, designing unique rounds just so that the enemy doesnt have access to them, is out of the pale, unless the IA asks for it in specific, and they havent mentioned that as any defining criteria either, whether it be for any local firearm or import. All that is required, is that it has to work and work well.

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Postby Sanjay M » 18 Feb 2008 05:16

I didn't say that Indian Army is seeking to scrounge supplies. I don't know why you'd reach for that conclusion. Obviously, it's the Naxalites who're seeking -- or claim to be seeking -- to scrounge supplies by raiding/capturing them from state forces.

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Postby Jaeger » 18 Feb 2008 09:51

How does this become about naxalites? where is the connection? everyone knows that the naxals don't have their own OFBs... so what's the point of mentioning them at all?

JC, per the OFB page, the 5.56x30 round is meant for CQB engagements. Would be interesting to see range and penetration estimates for these babies, given that the Zitara can also use them.

The MINSAS + 5.56x30 concept does put me in mind of an older such combo - the M1 Garand + M1 Carbine combo. both used .30 ammo, but the Garand of course used full-sized rifle ammo while the carbine used .30 Pistol/SMG type ammo.

Who would use them (MINSAS) more, IA or Rashtriya Rifles/CRPF types?

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Postby Rudranathh » 18 Feb 2008 10:13

Jaeger wrote:
Rudranathh wrote:Anyone visiting DefExpo2007 please ask the name of this rifle.

Strange rifle with M16 type front sight, ak type receiver and integrated Picatinny rails for mounting other optical scopes. Magazine size must be 30- 40. The hand grips look similar to drdo's MSMC.

http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/8462 ... 012di8.jpg


Seems to me that this is the strange MINSAS rifle which uses new 5.56x30mm ammo... check here:

MINSAS at OFB

The OFB site example has the usual ugly wood-finish instead of the cool black and no picatinny rails, but... i think it's the same one.


Good find. Major developmental work must have gone in solving the problems that always affects the development of carbines. That means the full research in INSAS series(assault rifle, carbine, LMG) is over and into full production. Nice work done by drdo and ofb people.

Jaeger wrote:The Kalantak isn't on the site at all...

The OFB site has not been updated, but the 'Kalantak' has already being tested by IA and IAF,MHA have already asked for 'Kalantak'.

sunilUpa wrote:Link
The OFB also took up the production of anti-material rifles (bunker busters) which was also hit due to the ban on Denel. A contract for the bulk production of these rifles for the Border Security Force will be signed next week. It has also developed the next generation of ‘Kalantak’ 5.56 micro light range of assault rifles, currently being tested by the Army, while the Indian Air Force and the Ministry of Home Affairs have already placed indents.

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Postby Rudranathh » 18 Feb 2008 10:26

Jaeger wrote:How does this become about naxalites? where is the connection? everyone knows that the naxals don't have their own OFBs... so what's the point of mentioning them at all?


Jaeger, dont reply to SanjayM. He is trolling. the best way to get rid of such characters is to inform the moderators. Please use the link to ask the mods to give him what he deserves.
http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... &start=160

Jaeger wrote:JC, per the OFB page, the 5.56x30 round is meant for CQB engagements. Would be interesting to see range and penetration estimates for these babies, given that the Zitara can also use them.

From OFB : Effective Range for MINSAS is 200 m.
While in the Zittara, 5.56X45 mm rounds can be used with an accuracy upto 300 m, and the 5.56X30 mm & 9X19 mm rounds can be used with an accuracy upto 200 m.

Jaeger wrote:Who would use them (MINSAS) more, IA or Rashtriya Rifles/CRPF types?

Most likely state police, BSF and the IA tank crews. Most pictures of security men carrying carbines are of the police protecting high risk people.

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Postby Igorr » 18 Feb 2008 14:15

5.56x30 mm ammo was initially developed in US for MARS carbin for PDW role. url
I doubt if it's good for VIP's security because of reduced stopping power.

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Postby Kartman » 18 Feb 2008 14:36

Jaeger wrote:JC, per the OFB page, the 5.56x30 round is meant for CQB engagements. Would be interesting to see range and penetration estimates for these babies, given that the Zitara can also use them.

Who would use them (MINSAS) more, IA or Rashtriya Rifles/CRPF types?

Since the original INSAS carbine had trouble firing the full 5.56X45 round, I'm guessing the MINSAS should be it's successor/replacement. In that sense, much like the original INSAS carbine was intended to do, it should replace the current Sterlings as PDWs for officers or JCOs in IA/CPMFs.

IIRC, the MSMC's description (from a DRDO TechFocus issue) specifically mentioned that the 5.56X30 round is meant to counter body armour, which the 9X19 round of the Sterling cannot.

Wonder what niche the MSMC fits in, though. I guess the conservative organisation that the IA is, they'd prefer something with a regular configuration (MINSAS) to a something radically different than what they're used to (MSMC). But, hey, they did order the Tavor didn't they :shock:

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Postby Kartman » 18 Feb 2008 15:21

Btw, did anyone notice that of late, there are many pics of AKMs with IA/RR with a fixed (wooden) stock ? Any idea if these are new/top-up imports or existing ones that have somehow been mod'd ? I've seen been too many pics of these over the last few months for these to be one-off, exceptions...

PS: these were in the ghastly, orangeish wooden stock, not the OFB AK-clones with the black polymer stock that one sees with some CPMFs or state police.

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Postby Rudranathh » 18 Feb 2008 15:31

Kartman wrote:IIRC, the MSMC's description (from a DRDO TechFocus issue) specifically mentioned that the 5.56X30 round is meant to counter body armour, which the 9X19 round of the Sterling cannot.


Are sure about the 5.56X30 part? Checked the drdo file it only mentions 5.56 and does not specific whether it is x30 or x45.

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Postby Kartman » 18 Feb 2008 16:29

Rudranathh wrote:
Kartman wrote:IIRC, the MSMC's description (from a DRDO TechFocus issue) specifically mentioned that the 5.56X30 round is meant to counter body armour, which the 9X19 round of the Sterling cannot.


Are sure about the 5.56X30 part? Checked the drdo file it only mentions 5.56 and does not specific whether it is x30 or x45.


Don't recall the exact wording... and I might well be mistaken that this was in Techfocus... might have been in some other MoD report, since MSMC is mentioned at multiple places.
In any case, one can infer from the size of the magazine that it uses a lower power round.

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Postby Jaeger » 18 Feb 2008 18:31

The MSMC is 400% 5.56x30 onlee... 45mm would be to wide to grasp in hand grip for one... also, MSMC being SMG-type would fire lower power ammo...

Wonder what niche the MSMC fits in, though. I guess the conservative organisation that the IA is, they'd prefer something with a regular configuration (MINSAS) to a something radically different than what they're used to (MSMC). But, hey, they did order the Tavor didn't they


Am guessing MSMC would be std issue to tank/APC/art. crews... good for PDW and compact enough for storage in cramped compartments...
As for Tavor.. does IA really need a reason to buy Bideshi maal? :roll:

If there was a need for a bullpup/compact AR, they could well ahve started with the INSAS bullpup and substituted materials to make it light, integrated picatinny rails and multiple sights... but you need forward planning and interaction with DRDO for that stuff to happen...

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Postby Rudranathh » 18 Feb 2008 19:24

Jaeger wrote:The MSMC is 400% 5.56x30 onlee... 45mm would be to wide to grasp in hand grip for one... also, MSMC being SMG-type would fire lower power ammo...

If you are 400% sure onlee then i take your word for it. :D

Jaeger wrote:If there was a need for a bullpup/compact AR, they could well ahve started with the INSAS bullpup and substituted materials to make it light, integrated picatinny rails and multiple sights... but you need forward planning and interaction with DRDO for that stuff to happen...

There is already an bullpup INSAS which has been manufactured. Dunno if it is in service or in trials. The pic has been posted by Aditya some time back.
Since drdo has already developed MINSAS with integrated picatinny rails, it can use that experience and knowledge in updating the bullpup INSAS only if the services want them that way. Otherwise waste of time.
Aditya G wrote:bullpup insas
Image

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Postby Jaeger » 18 Feb 2008 22:18

AoA birather, 400% = international mark of surety :lol:

I know there's a bullpup INSAS that's why I'm saying that IA could've used that as a starting pt, and told DRDO what they wanted over and above...

perhaps the gurus can enlighten further... why TFTA Zitara (Tavor) is superior to SDRE INSAS bullpup...

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Postby Anujan » 19 Feb 2008 00:28

Jaeger wrote:Seems to me that this is the strange MINSAS rifle which uses new 5.56x30mm ammo... check here:
MINSAS at OFB


This SDRE is completely confused onlee. There is this rifle:
(A) http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/8462 ... 012di8.jpg
It is clear that it is MINSAS, because of the picture from OFB and this picture of the MINSAS
(B) http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v83/j ... 360156.jpg
From the pictures, (A) seems to be an evolution of (B). (B) seems to be the shorter, darker (and I'm sure, it eats more rice) cousin of INSAS, a true SDRE carbine. Between (A) and (B), (A) seems to have a different stock and a more angled pistol grip. Going by the width of the magazine it seems to be chambered for 5.65x30mm. So it is the new improved MINSAS, that is settled.

But what is this ? (C) http://img180.imageshack.us/img180/4408 ... 009qn1.jpg (the one in the middle ?) the one in the top is Kalantak - that is settled. (A) and (C) are different. Note that (C) seems to be chambered for 5.65x45mm and the pistol grip and the front handgrip seems to be different between (A) and (C). Is (C) the new and improved INSAS ?

Edit: Never mind, it is Excalibur. Chanakyan earth-e-shatter SDREs are making too many rifles :eek:

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Postby Singha » 19 Feb 2008 00:54

imo the MINSAS could finally replace all the MP5/MP3 (getting long in tooth), Sterling, "Stens" (yes they exist in dark parts of the woodwork) and Lee Enfield 303/FN-FAL still equipping many state armed police and paramils.
INSAS and AK47 are available but AK's are also long in tooth mostly and a short barrel weapon is good for urban shooting and easier to deploy from vehicles.

imagine what a well armed platoon of Orissa police equipped with body armour, HE grenades and INSAS could have done to the horde of naxalites who overran their station? a couple of LMGs wouldnt have hurt on the roofs.

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Postby A Sharma » 19 Feb 2008 02:18

Latest Kalashnikovs to be made in India

NEW DELHI: With the 61st anniversary of the famed Kalashnikov AK-47 series around the corner, the Russian manufacturer of the world's best-known assault rifle announced that the latest AK-100 series will be manufactured in India.

The Russian arms company, Izhmash, will shortly issue a licence to an Indian private arms manufacturer with whom negotiations are at an advanced stage. Company spokesperson Alexander Xavarzin said assembling of the AK-103 will begin in a year's time and full-scale manufacturing would start once the technology transfer takes place.

The company hopes to sell the gun to various police and paramilitary forces in the country as well as the army. It will not be exported.

The popularity of the assault rifle can be gauged from the fact that originals account for only 8-12% of the total world sales of the Kalashnikov series - the rest are all Kalashnikov clones being manufactured in several countries, according to the Izhmash spokesperson.

Unlike the AK-47 rifle which has a wooden base, the new generation AK-100 series is much lighter and has a body made of plastic. Xavarzin said the plastic component makes it an all-weather rifle, well suited to Indian conditions where soldiers have to trek at high altitudes for a number of days at a stretch.

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Postby JCage » 19 Feb 2008 02:32

Mahindra Defence Systems.

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Postby Rudranathh » 19 Feb 2008 09:39

Jaeger wrote:I know there's a bullpup INSAS that's why I'm saying that IA could've used that as a starting pt, and told DRDO what they wanted over and above...


But the needs of the services are different, they need an 3-in-1 weapon like zitara.

Jaeger wrote:perhaps the gurus can enlighten further... why TFTA Zitara (Tavor) is superior to SDRE INSAS bullpup...

Kafir birather the Zitara is capable of firing 5.56X45 mm, 5.56X30 mm and 9X19 mm rounds while the INSAS can fire 5.56X45 mm round onlee.

Hope that answers the question( Dr.Zakir Piss Naik's Favourite line).

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Postby Rudranathh » 19 Feb 2008 11:07

A Sharma wrote:Latest Kalashnikovs to be made in India
Company spokesperson Alexander Xavarzin said assembling of the AK-103 will begin in a year's time and full-scale manufacturing would start once the technology transfer takes place.

Why AK-103 which uses 7.62x39mm caliber?

Why not the AK-101 and AK-102 which use the 5.56x45mm bullets?

Any idea?

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Postby Raj Malhotra » 19 Feb 2008 11:27

I extensively the chaps at DRDO stall about Bullpub INSAS but drew a blank

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Postby rkhanna » 19 Feb 2008 17:45

Where is the AK103 fit into to our Small Arms Soup.

FN-FAL
INSAS
INSAS-CARBINE
MSMC
Excalibre
MiniInsas
Bullpup Insas
TAVOR/ZITARA
AK-103
AK-47/AKM

And the Army maybe issuing a tender for the Next Gen rifles for the INSAS replacement ?

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Postby Rampy » 19 Feb 2008 19:32

rkhanna wrote:Where is the AK103 fit into to our Small Arms Soup.

FN-FAL
INSAS
INSAS-CARBINE
MSMC
Excalibre
MiniInsas
Bullpup Insas
TAVOR/ZITARA
AK-103
AK-47/AKM

And the Army maybe issuing a tender for the Next Gen rifles for the INSAS replacement ?


I am conphused only :roll:

What is the USP for each of tyeh rifles offered to the Army or by OFB, my thinking was

FN-FAL - Will be phased out soon
INSAS - Standard for all Para and Police
INSAS-CARBINE replaced by MSMC
Minsas- Upgraded from Insas and provided to Army
Excalibre – CI or ?
MiniInsas = Kalantak – Looking at size seems suitable for mountain and jungle no?
Bullpup Insas =TAVOR/ZITARA – Spec Op
AK-47/AKM - AK-103 – CI or Para or Police

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Postby Raj Malhotra » 19 Feb 2008 19:39

The main reason for failuer of INSAS carbine was that propellant loading of Indian Standard 5.56mm round (different from western- NATO) was such that it tended to burn outside the short barrel creating huge flash, shock and noise.

So how is Kalantak going to address this issue? Is Kalantak just the carbine reborn?

Also in INSAS the sight was not placed on barrel as it tended to drift when the barrel heated up. So how is Kalantak going to address this issue?

The only viable answer is that OFB has been able to improve the round or develop a new one and I am skeptical

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Postby Aditya G » 19 Feb 2008 19:39

What happened to INSAS Carbine? No news or noise on its development. Seems like A-7 has eliminated the need and MINSAS and INSAS-Uzi will replace Sterling. :-?

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Postby sunilUpa » 19 Feb 2008 19:49

Aditya G wrote:What happened to INSAS Carbine? No news or noise on its development. Seems like A-7 has eliminated the need and MINSAS and INSAS-Uzi will replace Sterling. :-?


AFAIK, not accepted by IA due to reasons outlined by Raj. MSMC will take it's place.

Not sure what you mean by INSAS-Uzi.

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Postby Aditya G » 19 Feb 2008 20:02

I meant the compact handheld uzi style insas version .... photo was posted on another thread.

sunilUpa wrote:
Aditya G wrote:What happened to INSAS Carbine? No news or noise on its development. Seems like A-7 has eliminated the need and MINSAS and INSAS-Uzi will replace Sterling. :-?


AFAIK, not accepted by IA due to reasons outlined by Raj. MSMC will take it's place.

Not sure what you mean by INSAS-Uzi.

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Postby Rampy » 19 Feb 2008 20:09

Aditya G wrote:I meant the compact handheld uzi style insas version .... photo was posted on another thread.



Do u mean Kalantak, that was shown in DefExpo

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Postby Aditya G » 19 Feb 2008 20:27

This one - 'MSMC'

Image

Sorry lost the name in the variant jungle :-?

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Postby sunilUpa » 19 Feb 2008 20:30

Yes, MSMC is replacement for Sterlings (INSAS carbine was supposed to do that job)

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Postby Rudranathh » 19 Feb 2008 20:37

Raj Malhotra wrote:So how is Kalantak going to address this issue? Is Kalantak just the carbine reborn?

Kalantak is not an carbine. It is an assault rifle with its weight reduced due to the extensive use of plastics.

Check these images.
Kalantak 07 is in the upper right corner. It has an distinctive magazine receiver.
http://img180.imageshack.us/img180/4408 ... 009qn1.jpg

Close up of Kalantak 07.
http://img502.imageshack.us/img502/7955 ... 010uv5.jpg

It has also developed the next generation of ‘Kalantak’ 5.56 micro light range of assault rifles, currently being tested by the Army, while the Indian Air Force and the Ministry of Home Affairs have already placed indents.Link


Raj Malhotra wrote:The only viable answer is that OFB has been able to improve the round or develop a new one and I am skeptical

The new carbines that drdo has developed is known as the MSMC. It uses the 5.56X30 round.

5.56 mm Modern Submachine Carbine and Ammunition
http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x226 ... rdoph7.jpg

Introduction of soft-body armour has rendered 9 mm carbine, operational with Indian Army, ineffective. DRDO has developed a 5.56 mm Modern Submachine Carbine (MSMC) and its ammunition aimed at defeating enemy soldiers protected with soft-body armour at a range of 200 m.

The 5.56 mm MSMC is unique in its category with features like pistol grip located at CG to achieve single-hand firing capability; magazine feeding through pistol grip; retractable butt for better stability while firing; ambidextrous cocking; fire selector to suit left and right hand firers; and a three-point sling for better carrying and manoeuverability. The weapon is lightweight, compact, robust and has proved highly accurate and reliable during user trials.

The ammunition for MSMC is of conventional type. The bullet is cylindro-ogival for better ballistics as compared to 9 mm. A steel insert has been introduced in the tip of the bullet to achieve better penetration power. The performance of this ammunition, in respect of remaining energy at various ranges, vis-à-vis contemporary ammunitions developed in the world, is better. Low power ammunition technology in the 5.56 mm caliber has been developed for the first time in India.

Technologies developed for the MSMC include: -
A unique semi bull-pup weapon feed system behind the trigger mechanism,
and retention of butt fitted in housing configuration evolved and tested to user satisfaction;
noise-reduction technology using CFD analysis for development of silencers;
molding of high-strength engineering plastic to manufacture components with integral features;
reflex sight and passive night sight;
and integration of laser spot designator on MSMC for close quarter battle (CQB).

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Postby Rampy » 19 Feb 2008 21:12

Rudranathh wrote:
Raj Malhotra wrote:So how is Kalantak going to address this issue? Is Kalantak just the carbine reborn?

Kalantak is not an carbine. It is an assault rifle with its weight reduced due to the extensive use of plastics.

Check these images.
Kalantak 07 is in the upper right corner. It has an distinctive magazine receiver.
http://img180.imageshack.us/img180/4408 ... 009qn1.jpg

Close up of Kalantak 07.
http://img502.imageshack.us/img502/7955 ... 010uv5.jpg



So how will the Minsas and Kalantak be used... meaning operations side. Or is it that one will go and other one will take its place?


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