Small Arms Thread

Igorr
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Postby Igorr » 25 Apr 2008 00:26

Raghavendra wrote:
Igorr wrote:What can happen with an American who use pirate-producted AKmoid :P :
http://smotri.com/video/view/?id=v3448102e22

It literally blew in his face. Seems to be an chinese made AK before clinton banned their import. By the looks of the surroundings it looks like an american weapons range or is it iraq?

Look like privat security team range in A-stan (distinctive clay fence in the basis in Kabul.)
This is a video with comparative trial between AEK-918 'Kashtan' and Uzi, history of Kovrov Mech. plant, AEK-971 demonstration etc:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R8gZ35Y6 ... re=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yvEKgQLb ... re=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PE3J6TiQagE#GU5U2spHI_4

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Postby Igorr » 28 Apr 2008 01:16

Difference in acoustic: VSS 'Vintorez" vs. SVD, AK-74 and AKS-74U
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-59aEfcUqU

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Postby alejandro_ » 30 Apr 2008 19:21

Igorr

The conclusion: the shorten burrel with 5.56/5.45 mm is bad idea. I should never go to fight with shorten barrel, low caliber weapon. You need at least 7.62 mm to be sure for your shorten barrel weapon effectiveness. I can offer 7.62x39 mm AK-104 for you. It's exellent weapon. Apropos, the US still has no shorten barrel option for their 7.62x45 mm round.


I do not understand this very well as I thought 7.62x39 mm was made obsolete by 5.45mm. Is there new ammo around? Venezuela did select a 7.62x39 calibre (AK-103) but it was thought to be a political decision. According to wikipedia Pakistani forces used AK-103 in Red Mosque siege.

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Postby Igorr » 01 May 2008 00:45

alejandro_ wrote:I do not understand this very well as I thought 7.62x39 mm was made obsolete by 5.45mm. Is there new ammo around? Venezuela did select a 7.62x39 calibre (AK-103) but it was thought to be a political decision. According to wikipedia Pakistani forces used AK-103 in Red Mosque siege.

It's appeared there is no absolutly best round for any purpose in the world. The low caliber rounds for assault rifles were designed when US and USS armies were occupied with the fear of big war. In this circa the round better to be light and unified for maximum to reduce the burden of logistics. The infantrymen thus could take with them 1.5-2 time more ammunition with 5.56/5,45 than with 7.62 of any kind. It really worked in Nam and A-stan per the memories of witnesses. Also the trajectory of low caliber bullets is flatter due to their higher velocity. It's very good for not super perfect shooters, because it means longer range of stright shot, easy aiming. Also lower calibre meant lower impulse i.e. better stability of the weapon in automatic fire.

However, last 20 years, the conditions, war tactics, war theaters were changed.
1) new measures for weapon stabilisation appeard: fire/sound depressors with gas stabilisation, assault rifles with mass balanced automatics, rifles with recoil removed recoil. All those give almost 5.56 level of automatic fire accuratenes with 7.62 mm rounds.
2) new war theaters emerged in urban areas, where the penetrating capability of 7.62 mm rounds allow ti fire through light walls. The same - in a forest areas 7.62 rounds penetrate wood while 5.56 doesnt.
3) the recuchett issue is very prominent with 5.56 and especially 5.45 mm classic round. 7.62x39 is much safer in this issue.
4) stopping power of any 7.62 round is much higher. it's also important in a close range engagement with a highly motivated enemy.
5) the trend for lighter weapon pull the use of 'carbines' . but the capability of 5.56/5.45 mm bullets fired from shorten barrel weapon is even less convincing, while for 7.62 mm it's still good.

I dont thing Chaves' choise of 7.62x39 - is purely politic. He could take 5.56 mm AK-101 or 5.45 mm AK-74M as well. I'would say about Venesuela's AK-103 purchase it's may be a wise moving, since they knew very well the deficiencies of 5.56 mm rounds: the neibough Columbia's forces use 5.56 mm AKmoids (Galil) against FARC rebels, so they have a lot of information how it works in jungles. The average range of engagements there in Selva is relative close, so you just cannot benefit from longer range and accuratenes of low caliber rounds.
ImageImage ImageImageImageImage

About allegedely AK-103 using in Pakistan, I think, it's still rumors only. However, the pakistani autorities appealed to Russia after the Red Mosque siege for supplying special weapons for such situation. I thing, the relative high loss of civilians was then due to using of Army weapon for special operations. It's broad known, that Pakistani Spec-Op forces have no any special rounds and still use Chines AKmoids with 7.62x39 mm regular rounds. I see their problem is in recuchett and low accuratenes. If they will bay something from Russia, it more probably a special weapon for 9x39 mm rounds than regular AK-103. I also dont sure Russia will sell them AK-103 in numbers - the profit from small arms is low while the risk to found them in the arms of terrorists is high. 9x39 mm weapons are much safely from this point of view due to strict control for 9x39 mm rounds production.

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Postby svinayak » 01 May 2008 01:57


Igorr
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Postby Igorr » 01 May 2008 03:55

Acharya wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zi_MpLzVv1g

It's not correct to compare 8.1 kg police PSG-1 with 3.8 kg army Dragunov. It's just different class of weapon: it's too easy to put heavy barrel for the rifle for better accurateness, but it will not fit Army request for weight.

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Postby sunilUpa » 01 May 2008 08:03

Army goes shopping for close-combat rifles

NEW DELHI: The Army's shopping spree shows no sign of stopping after deals or global tenders for more tanks, missiles and howitzers. This time, it wants to induct as many as 3,80,000 lethal carbines for its infantry soldiers and special forces.

Kicking off the huge carbine programme on Wednesday, the defence ministry issued a global tender for 43,318 "close-quarter battle" (CQB) carbines to American, Israeli, Swedish and several other armament companies.

These compact carbines, much easier to carry than full-length rifles, will come with night-vision devices, laser designators and detachable under-barrel grenade launchers.

The 1.13-million strong Army has projected a requirement of about 1,60,000 CQB carbines for its frontline infantry troops and special forces who operate in "tactical battle areas".

"The 43,318 CQB carbines, their attachments and ammunition, along with transfer of technology (ToT) for the complete basic gun system, will cost around Rs 4,400 crore," said a defence ministry source.

"The rest of the CQB carbines will be manufactured indigenously with ToT, with DRDO providing the 'night sights' for them instead of the foreign vendor," said a MoD source.

The army is also looking to induct around 2,20,000 "protective" carbines from indigenous sources for "defensive duties".

"For this, 5.56-mm carbine models of Ordnance Factory Board and DRDO are being considered. These include the ones from the INSAS (Indian small arms system) family," said the source.
More and more armies in the world are going in for modular carbines, which can fire hundreds of bullets in a minute and are smaller and lighter in weight than the standard full-length rifles, to boost the combat effectiveness of their soldiers.

"Sten-machine carbines are small to carry and good to shoot with. They come with immense firepower now. They are particularly potent in close quarter combat, which is the predominant engagement in counter-insurgency operations or urban warfare," said an officer.

The Army's quest to acquire state-of-the-art carbines ties in with its futuristic modernisation programme for foot-soldiers called the F-INSAS (future infantry soldier as a system).
:shock:

What is difference b/w CQB carbines and ones made by DRDO like MINISAS/MSMC?

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Postby ArmenT » 01 May 2008 11:17

sunilUpa wrote::shock:

What is difference b/w CQB carbines and ones made by DRDO like MINISAS/MSMC?

The only difference is that they're made by other countries besides India :D. Seriously though, MINSAS is even advertised as a CQB weapon on the OFB page.
http://ofbindia.gov.in/products/data/weapons/wsc/24.htm

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Postby Igorr » 01 May 2008 13:31


It becomes interesting. But too many questions:

1) if the fact of the tender means the recently bought Tavors failed in their role as a close quarter battle weapon?
2) whether OFB's 5.56x30 MINSAS and 5.56x45 Excalibur carbines will take participation in the tender for CQ combat rifles too?
3) whether the mentioned before Indian private manufacture which bought (or expected to buy) licension for AK-103 will also participate in the tender?
4) if the tender for CQ carbines is limited for certain caliber (calibers)?
5) if the word 'modular' means the CQ battle carbines must be with exchangable burrels of different lenghts and caliber?
6) what are requests for optics and other devices included?

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Postby ParGha » 01 May 2008 19:57

sunilUpa wrote:Army goes shopping for close-combat rifles

"Sten-machine carbines are small to carry and good to shoot with. They come with immense firepower now. They are particularly potent in close quarter combat, which is the predominant engagement in counter-insurgency operations or urban warfare," said an officer.
:shock:

What is difference b/w CQB carbines and ones made by DRDO like MINISAS/MSMC?


Methinks you are over-analyzing bovine excreta: If the isolated quote is any indication of the reporter's contacts, well it ain't saying much. With all due respect to the Sterlings (the "Stens" just add a lot of credibility to the unnamed officer, doesn't it?), it is a good weapon if this were the 1980s. It is with good reason that India bought thousands of AKMs from outside, when it had perfectly good indigenous manufacturing for those "Sten-machine guns" - as OFB has been producing them since the 1960s!

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Postby satya » 01 May 2008 20:36

Army goes shopping for close-combat rifles


Could it be IA providing multiple options in terms of rifles to infantry depending upong the operational & terrain requirements something it didnt had in past in large numbers ?

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Postby ticky » 10 May 2008 08:41

Bear with me guys.. me just a novice and don't know much about guns except it goes bang when you pull the trigger. Recently i went back home to Manipur after a long time. I saw Assam Rifles troops on patrol carrying Insas rifles with a long thin telescopic sight attached, couldn't get any pics though. They would have caned my ass if I tried :lol:

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Postby Sanjay » 11 May 2008 03:25

Ticky, can I ask you this: how many did you see and did they all have that telescopic sight fixed ?

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Postby Avinash R » 11 May 2008 12:53

telescopic sights fitted to rifles or LMG's are common within the forces. an bsf jawan with an LMG fitted with an sight was seen during the recent foiled inflitration attempt at the border when the pakistani rangers were providing cover fire to the inflitrating terrorists.
Today an encounter is raging on between jk police with the pakistani terrorists holed up in an house in samba,jammu. two women are being held hostage and rescue attempt is being mounted by the security forces, an photo journalist ashok sodhi was shot dead by the terrorists during the intial hours of the encounter. most of the jawans are carrying the Insas rifles and wearing body armour and the patkas.

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Postby Sanjay » 11 May 2008 17:01

Avinash R, do you have a link or photo of that BSF jawan and his LMG ?

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Postby Avinash R » 11 May 2008 17:32

Shown on ndtv 24x7. Will check their newsite for video feed of the news report.

added later:Their site contains an edited video feed which doesnt show the scope.
more on the samba encounter, till now 7 hostages have been rescued by the security forces.

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Postby ticky » 13 May 2008 12:57

Sanjay, sorry for getting back to you so late. There were at least two scope equipped Insas on every patrol I saw

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Postby Sanjay » 13 May 2008 14:11

How many men per patrol ?

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Postby ticky » 13 May 2008 14:38

Platoon strength. Anything less would invite ambush.


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