Small Arms Thread

ParGha
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Postby ParGha » 19 Jun 2007 20:08

shiv wrote:Questions:

What is the weight of a 5.56 mm bullet - say INSAS. Bullet alone - not casing/propellant

Similarly what is the weight of a 7.62 mm bullet.

Does the 7.62 Kalashnikov share ammunition with the old FN/Ishapore rifle? Does the AK 47 take 7.62 at all.

Is lead still used in the core of bullets?


Different weights can be found in bullets of the same caliber. For example the NATO-standard round is slightly (by a few grains) heavier than the US-adopted rounds. They can be inter-changed with marginal issues with performance. If the design features attributed to INSAS on the BR read-up is true, it is more heavy like the NATO standard than the US-adopted standard.

Again there is much difference between different bullets of a 7.62mm round. Also 7.62mm is not a conclusive definition of even a similar family of a round. This I shall elaborate on next point.

The Kalashnikov round is 7.62x39mm, the NATO standard is 7.62x54mm. There is no way you can fit either round into a gun-chamber designed for another. Yes, the AK very much takes the 7.62x39mm rounds... its the only round it takes in fact.

What exactly do you want to do with a bullet? If the job has particular characteristics, you will be recommended an appropriate bullet - some with lead-cores if need be. Regular military cannot use expanding bullets(which I presume is the reason you want a half-jacketed lead round?), even Special Forces are very iffy, NSG - as a quasi-police force - can use it in their arsenal quite legally.

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Postby Kartman » 19 Jun 2007 20:17

ParGha wrote:The Kalashnikov round is 7.62x39mm, the NATO standard is 7.62x54mm. There is no way you can fit either round into a gun-chamber designed for another. Yes, the AK very much takes the 7.62x39mm rounds... its the only round it takes in fact.


Just adding a footnote to ParGha's detailed reply...

Even within the same calibre (say, 5.56X45), rounds have different characteristics... such as the INSAS vs NATO std. rounds. While in most cases, different rounds with the same calibre can be used in different weapons, each round is optimized for a particular weapon. E.g. while NATO std. 5.56X45 rounds can be used in an INSAS, it requires recalibration of the sights, etc.

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Postby m_bose » 19 Jun 2007 20:41

@RayC: Sir, the info about the Vietnam era personalities comes from a book called "One Shot One Kill" by Charles W. Sasser and Craig Roberts. The book may be out of print (my copy is a third hand copy from an used bookstore), but I can provide scan excerpts if needed. By the way, the book mentions that Major Lones Wigger's quotes came from American Rifleman Magazine, May 1987. Also, the other names are Master Sergeant Emil W. Heugatter and Major John R. Foster. Googling for Heugatter brings up one interview where he mentions that he was involved in the training school in Dong Tam and the experiences he had trying to teach people to shoot.

@shiv, kartman: Thanks for the kind comments sir :)]

@asprinzl: Yes and another famous country-boy marksman was Sergeant Alvin York. Like Audie Murphy, he also had to hunt to feed his family while he was growing up.

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Postby m_bose » 19 Jun 2007 21:04

Kartman wrote:Just adding a footnote to ParGha's detailed reply...

Even within the same calibre (say, 5.56X45), rounds have different characteristics... such as the INSAS vs NATO std. rounds. While in most cases, different rounds with the same calibre can be used in different weapons, each round is optimized for a particular weapon. E.g. while NATO std. 5.56X45 rounds can be used in an INSAS, it requires recalibration of the sights, etc.


To add to this discussion, the weight of the round, profile and the rifling of the barrel also have a lot to do with the accuracy.
http://www.ammo-oracle.com/body.htm#twists and
http://www.ammo-oracle.com/body.htm#m855zero explains it all.

The website http://www.ammo-oracle.com/body.htm gives you everything you need to know about 5.56 mm rounds (profiles, weights, compositions etc.)

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Postby Raj Malhotra » 19 Jun 2007 22:37

shiv wrote:Questions:

What is the weight of a 5.56 mm bullet - say INSAS. Bullet alone - not casing/propellant

Similarly what is the weight of a 7.62 mm bullet.

Does the 7.62 Kalashnikov share ammunition with the old FN/Ishapore rifle? Does the AK 47 take 7.62 at all.

Is lead still used in the core of bullets?


5.56x45 bullets are 55 grain, 62 grain NATO, 65 grain Indian, 77grain new US

7.62x39 is 125 grain

7.62x51 is 158 grain for NATO ball

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Postby RayC » 20 Jun 2007 06:53

@MBose,

Thanks for the info.

If you come onto World Affairs Board http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/index.php?
you could PM (Ray) and I could give you my email id so that I could get a scanned copy of the relevant parts.

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Postby shiv » 21 Jun 2007 07:43

Raj Malhotra wrote:
5.56x45 bullets are 55 grain, 62 grain NATO, 65 grain Indian, 77grain new US

7.62x39 is 125 grain

7.62x51 is 158 grain for NATO ball


Thanks Raj - this is what i was looking for but eek :eek: - they still do this in grains?

A quick Google says grain=0.065 gram (65 mg)

So 100 grain is 6.5 grams

It appears that the "average" rifle bullet weighs in between 4 and 8 grams.

I wanted this info basically to calculate the degree of "kick" (recoil) that the soldier feels when he shoots one bullet @ 600 meters per sec.

What the hell is "ball" ammunition in this day and age?

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Postby m_bose » 21 Jun 2007 08:04

shiv wrote:What the hell is "ball" ammunition in this day and age?

Ball ammunition is bog-standard ammo (i.e. non-tracer, non-armor piercing, non-incendiary etc.). Incidentally, it isn't necessarily spherical shaped these days either.
http://www.inetres.com/gp/military/infantry/rifle/556mm_ammo.html
The term "ball" comes from ancient usage when the majority of bullets were actually spherical and ball ammunition was synonymous with "regular" bullets that you would use normally with your rifle. The term still stays with us, even if the bullet is no longer shaped like a ball.

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Postby m_bose » 21 Jun 2007 08:50

Also, if you want to calculate the recoil energy of the rifle, you may want to consider this link for the formula:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_recoil

You may want to factor in the weight of the unfired cartridges in the weight of the weapon as well, for an average value.

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Postby Kartman » 21 Jun 2007 19:12

shiv wrote:I wanted this info basically to calculate the degree of "kick" (recoil) that the soldier feels when he shoots one bullet @ 600 meters per sec.


Shivji: you might not have to go thru all that trouble, since recoil energy info is available for common rifle-ammo combinations in open source !

Unless, of course, it's for some exotic new piskological ammo you're developing in your basement :twisted:

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Postby K Mehta » 29 Jun 2007 19:35

Image
Image
Image
Can anybody tell me why the muzzle of the AKs above are like this? Combat wear? or have they been filed? what changes would that make to the accuracy of the rifle?

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Postby Kartman » 29 Jun 2007 19:40

That's the std. muzzle brake on all AKMs...

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Postby K Mehta » 29 Jun 2007 19:52

Then why dont all AKs in army have it? Muzzle brakes only for particular units? or different muzzle brakes for different units?

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Postby Kartman » 29 Jun 2007 20:15

K Mehta wrote:Then why dont all AKs in army have it? Muzzle brakes only for particular units? or different muzzle brakes for different units?


Eh ? I thought all AKs had them... don't recall seeing any without !

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Postby m_bose » 29 Jun 2007 21:29

KMehta - That is the Muzzle Brake (a.k.a. recoil compensator), specifically a Slanted Muzzle Brake. Muzzle brakes come in different shapes and IIRC, the original AK-47 didn't have one, but they can be easily fitted. Their purpose is fairly simple -- Normally, when an AK is fired, the barrel tends to climb up due to the recoil. Hence, when you fire in full-auto mode, it is pretty difficult to keep that barrel aimed at the target. With the recoil compensator at the end, it redirects some of the gas upwards, thereby pushing the barrel downwards. Extra bonus: It also helps hide the flash of the gunpowder, when you fire the rifle.

Here are two pictures of slanted muzzle brake: One is a threaded type that you screw on to the end of the barrel and the other is a set-screw type, where you hold it in place by sliding it on the barrel and then fixing it by putting a screw through the small hole on top:
http://www.ak-47.net/ak47/brakes/slant.html

There are other types as well: http://www.ak-47.net/ak47/brakes/index.html

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Postby Kartman » 29 Jun 2007 21:40

m_bose wrote:Extra bonus: It also helps hide the flash of the gunpowder, when you fire the rifle.


Minor point... this happens only if the muzzle brake has been designed to function as a flash eliminator (which is many a time not the case)... else, the muzzle brake can actually increase the flash !

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Postby K Mehta » 29 Jun 2007 21:53

kartman and m bose saars,
thanks a lot for the info, I didnt even know it was called a muzzle, was going to write barrel, then remembered something like muzzle from CS, did google and got a bit of gyan just before posting. Since silencers are bigger (as seen in movies), i was wondering what this cut barrel of AK was, especially since the shape is very strange. I think I saw few AKs in hands of jawans without it and only few with it. will post the links of the photos. Got these photos from the great misc photos thread.

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Postby K Mehta » 29 Jun 2007 21:54

By the way misc photos thread has become another small arms thread.

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Postby sarab » 29 Jun 2007 22:17

I want know about OFB made Vidvansak AMR rifles current profile.
is it Issued to army or still in testing face
no information in media Other than OFB website! :?:

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Postby K Mehta » 30 Jun 2007 14:31

Kartman you are right, couldnt find any pics without the muzzle brakes. Heck it was difficult to find AK pics. Looks like its INSAS all over the army. And every single rifle I saw had a muzzle brake, except for those caught from the militants. Saw a few rifles from militants having folding metal stocks, one with sawed off wooden stock on the pictures thread. Is it possible that the sources for metal stock and wooden stock AKs for militants be different?

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Postby Kartman » 02 Jul 2007 14:38

K Mehta wrote:Kartman you are right, couldnt find any pics without the muzzle brakes. Heck it was difficult to find AK pics. Looks like its INSAS all over the army. And every single rifle I saw had a muzzle brake, except for those caught from the militants.


I too recall seeing some jihadi AKs without muzzle brakes, but I'm not 400% sure of that... might just have been the angle/composition of the pic !

I'm more certain of seeing pics of AKs without the muzzle brakes in Warsaw Pact service... but those were more likely the "original" AK-47s from the 50s. Most, if not all, other "AK-47s" that one sees are actually AKMs.

Saw a few rifles from militants having folding metal stocks, one with sawed off wooden stock on the pictures thread. Is it possible that the sources for metal stock and wooden stock AKs for militants be different?

The fixed (wooden) stock is rare in jihadi service, but probably has the same origin... most AKs in piglet service are the Chinese-origin Type-56 ("AK-56"), probably with a smattering of garage-made pieces, of the Abdul Jihadi Bandook Works (Peshawar) genre.

A large number of the AKs seen in conflict zones such as civil wars, etc. around the world are Type-56s... thank you, again, gentle People's Lepubric, for spreading joy and happiness around the world :evil:

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Postby Singha » 04 Jul 2007 16:42

D-channel was showing off a new AGL some firm in florida has developed. has the usual rotary magazine of 6 rounds....the kicker is it can unleash all 6 in 3 seconds which was demoed.

in keeping with the usual US bigger is badder philosophy it can fire the usual
40mm round but a new round called "hellhound" was demoed - twice the length...for lack of a better analogy shaped like a dildo with smooth head and ribbed shaft. works well - blew down a thick steel door and smacked some plywood dummies.

real all about it here:
http://www.defensereview.com/article749.html
http://www.defensereview.com/1_31_2004/ ... LHOUND.pdf

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Postby m_bose » 07 Jul 2007 09:57


Sanjay M
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Postby Sanjay M » 15 Jul 2007 08:32

Russia Feels Ripped Off on Kalashnikov

Hmm, looks like they're the victims of their own open-source vision.

The only thing I can suggest is to maybe take things to the WTO?

Seriously, Americans have loudly screamed about the Russian website, AllOfMP3.com, accusing it of ripping off copyrighted music, but they won't say anything about the Kalashnikov they're ripping off.

I would say the Russian case is at least as good as the Americans.
Kalashnikov rifles cost a lot more than MP3 songs, and there are a hell of a lot of them out there.

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Postby Paul » 17 Jul 2007 17:07

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2007\07\17\story_17-7-2007_pg1_10

Pakis operating Brens?

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Postby Kartman » 17 Jul 2007 19:42

Can some guru pls. confirm the following ?

Is the 7.62 "Bren" (1B LMG) really a real Bren rechambered for 7.62mm ? I was always under the impression it is a different LMG of Brit or Belgian (don't remember which) origin :?:

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Postby m_bose » 17 Jul 2007 21:22

Brens were always British made. The original gun that the design was based upon was a Brno of Czechslovak origin (The name Bren is a concatenation of Brno and Enfield, who actually made the Bren in the UK). Even the first Bren was different from the original Brno, as it was chambered for the 303 round instead of 7.92 Mauser of the original Brno, since the Brits used 303 for their standard rifles as well. This meant the magazine and barrel were also different from the Brno.

The Brits changed to 7.62mm with the L4 model in the 50s because they adopted NATO standard ammo at this time.

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Postby Kartman » 17 Jul 2007 21:58

My question was more along the lines of is "L4:Bren = AKM:AK-47" ?
As opposed to "Sterling:Sten = FAL:AK-47", if that makes any sense :P

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Postby parshu » 09 Aug 2007 14:32

Kartman wrote:My question was more along the lines of is "L4:Bren = AKM:AK-47" ?
As opposed to "Sterling:Sten = FAL:AK-47", if that makes any sense :P


L4 and Bren, same gun diff ammo, 7.62 mm NATO, .303 inch WW2

AKM and AK-47 Same gun, same ammo, 7.62 x 39, AKM is assault rifle version, more compact

Sten and Sterling, different guns, different vintages ( sterling post WW2) but same ammo, 9mm parabellum

FAL and AK-47, diffrent guns, different ammo FAL from belgium, we made Brit version L1A1 SLR in Ishapore

The INSAS is the half-breed child of the SLR and the AK-47. :-)

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Postby Kartman » 09 Aug 2007 19:02

parshu wrote:AKM and AK-47 Same gun, same ammo, 7.62 x 39, AKM is assault rifle version, more compact

Eh, what :shock:

The INSAS is the half-breed child of the SLR and the AK-47. :-)

:roll:

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Postby abhischekcc » 09 Aug 2007 19:24

Hi,

Can anyone tell the kind of equipment/machinery required in making munitions (basically bullets) of various kind?

Just curious. However interchangeable are these machines with use in civilian applications.

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Postby parshu » 09 Aug 2007 20:04

Kartman wrote:
parshu wrote:AKM and AK-47 Same gun, same ammo, 7.62 x 39, AKM is assault rifle version, more compact

Eh, what :shock:

The INSAS is the half-breed child of the SLR and the AK-47. :-)

:roll:


The INSAS rifle is broadly based on the Kalashnikov AK-47 action, but with many modifications. The basic gas-operated action with long stroke gas piston and a rotating bolt, as well as the stamped steel receiver, are generally the same as in modern Kalashnikov rifles. However, the gas system is fitted with a manual gas regulator, similar in design to that found on FN FAL/SLR rifles, as well as a gas cutoff. (source: wikipedia, but its corroborated)

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Postby Kartman » 09 Aug 2007 20:11

Still :roll:

And, btw, the AKM is not the "assault rifle version" of the AK-47...

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Firing guns

Postby parshu » 09 Aug 2007 20:13

I must share with you the one of my highlights of my schooldays, blowing up a lot of ammo on the firing ranges at the tax payer's expense thanx to Area Commander chacha. The 9mm Browing was hopelessly inaccurate, The Sterling was incredibly easy to use, just a steel tube with a banana clip, the SLR with its robust x 54mm cartidge had quite a recoil, but the noisy but accurate Bren ( LMG) and MMG were the most sexy to fire. Times have changed with AK-47s and INSAS in use. Wonder if anyone on this thread has fired them also and can share a comparitive user feedback.

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INSAS features and design

Postby parshu » 09 Aug 2007 20:17

Kartman wrote:Still :roll:

And, btw, the AKM is not the "assault rifle version" of the AK-47...


You are right, it is the more modernized and lighter version of the AK-47 assault rifle. My error of articulation. Thank you for the clarification.

As regards my half-breed pedigree comment, our ordinance designers took a mix of features from the weapons they were most familar with in the subcontinent to design the INSAS.( the AK47, the SLR, even the G3) As you probably know, even master gunsmiths like the israelis found the basic AK47 layout superlative and used it for the Galil.
Last edited by parshu on 09 Aug 2007 20:25, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Kartman » 09 Aug 2007 20:23

abhischekcc wrote:Hi,

Can anyone tell the kind of equipment/machinery required in making munitions (basically bullets) of various kind?

Just curious. However interchangeable are these machines with use in civilian applications.


Depends on how what your plans are :P

If you're planning to set-up in your basement, you can make do with hand-operated tools for stamping, folding, joining, pressing, etc... you needn't tell the guvrmand onlee... esp. if you live in Bihar :twisted:

But for large-scale, you'd need a production line (complete with material handling equipment) with the automated versions of the above tools, metal treatment, QC, etc.

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Kitchen kalshnikovs

Postby parshu » 09 Aug 2007 20:30

Was told on a youtube forum by a proud Pathan that a countrymade AK-47 is available in the village markets of the Khyber agency for 12k Pak rupees.

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Postby Kartman » 09 Aug 2007 20:32

parshu wrote:
Kartman wrote:Still :roll:

And, btw, the AKM is not the "assault rifle version" of the AK-47...


You are right, it is the more modernized and lighter version of the AK-47 assault rifle. My error of articulation. Thank you for the clarification.


No probs :)
Just that it's best if one is 400% sure onlee before stating something as fact on here... simply because many people have come to rely on BRF, and folks have in the past gone around saying ABC is a fact "because parshu/Kartman/Xyz said so on BRF" !

As far as the INSAS goes, pretty much every modern assault rifle uses the AK-inspired gas-operated, rotating bolt, save for a few notable exceptions from the H&K, CETME, etc. stable.

Much like the modern compact car layout owes a lot to the Citroen 2CV onlee... :)

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Re: Firing guns

Postby Kartman » 09 Aug 2007 20:41

parshu wrote:I must share with you the one of my highlights of my schooldays, blowing up a lot of ammo on the firing ranges at the tax payer's expense thanx to Area Commander chacha. The 9mm Browing was hopelessly inaccurate, The Sterling was incredibly easy to use, just a steel tube with a banana clip, the SLR with its robust x 54mm cartidge had quite a recoil, but the noisy but accurate Bren ( LMG) and MMG were the most sexy to fire. Times have changed with AK-47s and INSAS in use. Wonder if anyone on this thread has fired them also and can share a comparitive user feedback.


As far as handguns go, try the Glocks if you can...

SLR and LMG have a very solid "feel" to them, but kick like a horse... people who weren't careful had their shoulders "knocked out" if they weren't careful :eek:

IMHO, the AK has a rather crude feel to it and is totally uncontrollable... then there's that ghastly bolt clanging back-n-forth... personally, I found that fairly disconcerting :evil:

But then, what's good for a TFTA Pathan isn't necessarily good for an SDRE Yindoo onlee :oops:

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Postby Kartman » 10 Aug 2007 14:23

To follow parshu's train of thought:

Has anyone fired the Vz.58 ? How does it compare with the AKM ?


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