India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

mandrake
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Postby mandrake » 09 Sep 2007 23:38

sunilUpa wrote:^^^^

Excuse me!! am I reading right? Col. Ajai Shukla has something positive to say about Arjun (second time, first time we saw the NDTV report)!!!

Must be the beer I drank. I will read it again after cpl of hours.


Natashas must have stopped coming over :rotfl:

So boys whats next for Arjun's fate?

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Postby sunilUpa » 09 Sep 2007 23:47

joey wrote:
Natashas must have stopped coming over :rotfl:


:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

So boys whats next for Arjun's fate?


A classic compromise..Arjun and T-90 in almost equal numbers. I guess DRDO and Army have already reached the compromise.

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Postby mandrake » 10 Sep 2007 00:06

sunilUpa wrote:OMG..I just can't stop laughing...SHQ is seriously worried about quality of beer. :D :D :D Heck I am going to open the Champagne..

Some one sober please explain to me, how the heck these MoD (read Army..or other Babus) keep a straight face while issuing such statements.

All in all, a good year till now for Indian Defence/Strategic Research establishment.May it continue the same way. God bless

''We have kept the option of producing another 124 of the better version of the Arjun tank. And when the army uses this tank, God knows, they may just fall in love with it and decide that the entire production line should be Arjuns only,'' said KP Singh, Secretary Defence Production


Oh BTW WTF is better version of Arjun? One which weighs less than 20 T, drives and shoots itself, can also act as submarine, used in place of a Tejas?

Now RMs statement to Loksabha makes some sense.


Better version of Arjun with 3rd Gen TI, Autotracker, New 81mm anti-laser and anti-smoke screening Grenade under developement, Commanders independent TI, possibly some active defensive system like Shotra et al.

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Postby Tilak » 10 Sep 2007 00:11

sunilUpa wrote:Oh BTW WTF is better version of Arjun?


Manufacturers are being sent on another wild goose chase, it appears.. While Babus Bag BMW's on their way out..

Atleast can we hope the same "tonnage" rationale holds when Tejas issue comes up ?, or as some body in IAF[if I remember correctly] said "nothing less than AESA will do" :rotfl:

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Postby skher » 10 Sep 2007 00:27

sunilUpa wrote:
''We have kept the option of producing another 124 of the better version of the Arjun tank. And when the army uses this tank, God knows, they may just fall in love with it and decide that the entire production line should be Arjuns only,'' said KP Singh, Secretary Defence Production


Oh BTW WTF is better version of Arjun? One which weighs less than 20 T, drives and shoots itself, can also act as submarine, used in place of a Tejas?

Now RMs statement to Loksabha makes some sense.


No saar....you misundarstand.Hon'ble Mr.Singh was being ironic to vent out his frustration.There's always scope for betterment,he was sugar-coating.






What he really meant was to tell ppl in the army,"Why you little @#$$%#^! Why can't you just accept the Tank??"
[/quote]

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Postby sunilUpa » 10 Sep 2007 03:29

SonarDeshi wrote:No saar....you misundarstand.Hon'ble Mr.Singh was being ironic to vent out his frustration.There's always scope for betterment,he was sugar-coating.

What he really meant was to tell ppl in the army,"Why you little @#$$%#^! Why can't you just accept the Tank??"


It's indeed possible that Mr.Singh was sarcastic. Looking at various statements (RM, Mr.Singh), production of 124 tanks is cleared, in return for DRDO consent to buy 347 T-90s. (BTW why 347? why not 350 :?: )

Next lot of 124 will be ordered when Arjun can fly for 20 minutes, preferably taking off on water. :evil: :twisted:

Any way lets continue this discussion in Artillay and Armour thread.

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Larsen & Toubro Sets Sights on Indian Contracts

Postby sunilUpa » 10 Sep 2007 06:27

From DN

[quote]NEW DELHI — India’s fastest-growing private defense firm, Larsen & Toubro (L&T), is planning a high-tech shipyard to build big warships and submarines, said Madhukar Vinayak V Kotwal, who is both a member of the firm’s board of directors and its senior executive vice president for heavy engineering.


The company is also joining with South Korea’s Samsung to bid for the $4 billion contract to supply 155mm guns to the Indian Army, Kotwal said.
He said the firm would soon announce a plan to spend between $317 million and $365 million on a shipyard, to be built at Tamil Nadu, Andhra Pradesh or Gujarat.
“We will create a full-fledged shipyard which will have an area of 1,000 acres besides deepwater depth. We aim to build a variety of warships, both defense and specialized ships up to 3,000,000 DWT [deadweight tons], and certainly it will have capacity to build aircraft carriers.â€

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Postby sanjaykumar » 14 Sep 2007 08:24


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Postby mandrake » 16 Sep 2007 23:37

DST has given a Project to IIT Kanpur Aero guys to develope a Unmanned Autonomous Helicopter with AI , Swarm communication et al, according to them it will be used in civilian, law enforcement agencies et al, Check out the site,

http://home.iitk.ac.in/~cven/autoheli/Index.htm

Image

With the advancement in technology, ideas, which existed only as science fiction, are becoming a reality. One such idea is the development of autonomous mini helicopter. The development of such a mini flying vehicle is made possible with advancements in technological developments of small size but efficient gyros, accelerometers, magnetic sensors, servo controls communication equipments, GPS, power plant etc. The motivation and driving force behind this effort is that these vehicles will be useful in law enforcement, agriculture, forestry, environmental monitoring and military. Currently focused effort is directed in several countries to develop autonomous flying vehicles with the active involvement of industries, R&D establishments and academic institutions

The objective of this activity is to develop a laboratory focusing on the fundamentals of design manufacturing and testing of systems and sub systems, which will lead to the development of an autonomous mini helicopter. This project will be truly a multi disciplinary project that will provide the students an opportunity to get hands on experience in one of the most challenging advanced technology projects. Even though the autonomous mini helicopter will be only a few kilograms in weight ( all up weight is around 8kg to 10 kg) it will have the full functionality of real life helicopter. This project will serve as a platform to test innovative ideas in the design, development, ground testing and flight testing of autonomous flying vehicles.

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Postby Tilak » 17 Sep 2007 00:18

Arjun tank: Building a defence industrial base
Ajai Shukla / New Delhi September 11, 2007

[quote]The sprawling premises of the Heavy Vehicles Factory (HVF) in Avadi near Chennai are the birthplace of the tanks that form the cutting edge of the Indian Army. The two major tank production lines here present contrasting pictures.

On the one hand is the T-90 production line, evidently the line of the future. Presently reassembling knocked down T-90 tanks that are shipped from Russia, this is where the bulk of India’s 3,500-tank fleet could be manufactured once the domestic production kicks into gear.

The other production line is that of the Arjun. Newly set up in a giant shed at one end of the HVF, this is the line with limited prospects.

After fulfilling the Army’s token order for 124 Arjuns, which at the target rate of 50 tanks a year will be met by 2010, this production line will be looking for orders.

The makers of the Arjun tank, the Central Vehicles R&D Establishment (CVRDE), located a stone’s throw away from the HVF, believes that the Ministry of Defence’s (MoD’s) decision to cancel comparative trials this summer is a hammer blow to the prospects of getting a larger order for the Arjun. After three decades of failing to meet the Army’s expectations, the Arjun would have needed to clearly outclass the T-72s and the T-90s in head-to-head trials to wrest more orders from a sceptical Army.

The Army’s strongest argument in favour of the T-90 is that from the purely economic viewpoint, the T-90, at an affordable Rs 12 crore apiece, seems a cheaper option than the Arjun, which carries a Rs 18 crore price tag. But the CVRDE disputes this point. If larger orders are placed for the Arjun, says Project Director R Jayakumar, the economy of scale will bring down the cost of the Arjun to around that of the T-90.

Initial costs, say officers involved in the project, were high. HVF Avadi has machinery worth crores of rupees lying rusting; that was used to produce even nuts and bolts for the Arjun, when local industry was producing nothing. Gradually, over years, a network of local suppliers has been created, an industrial base that has brought down production costs, but is itself vulnerable to the stoppage of production.

Amphenol Ltd produces radio harnesses for the Arjun. Guruprasad Bhat of Amphenol says that in anticipation of increased Arjun production, the company expanded its manpower and production and testing facilities at a cost of Rs 8 crores.


Now Amphenol must recover those costs. And the larger the number of tanks that are produced, the lighter it can load its products. Bhat explains that “we are proud to be involved in producing an Indian tank, but we would also like to see good profits.â€

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Postby Arun_S » 17 Sep 2007 02:21

joey: That IITK website is very informative and it is lot of serious first principal effort that has gone in to develop this system. Initially I though it is add on autonomous automation of an existing helicoptor. I was wrong. They have built up the system almost from scratch.

Very very credible project by the team.

I noticed that they have used multi sensor fusion for reliabelity. So they have 3 axis linear accelerometers, I think those gray blocks were rate-gyros. Now magnetic sensors are used for north south sensing and horizon sensor fusion to basic Inertial Measurement Unit. The Ultrasonic sensor for accurate altitude sensing. GPS is for coarse position sensing. They also have pitot tube for forward ASI. And shaft encoder for main rotot and hall-sensor for perhaps speed sensing.

Their effort to control noise/vibration is commendable.

Overall a very good project.

Use of PC104 frame is good for initial prototyping.

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Postby JCage » 17 Sep 2007 02:39

I thought it was yet another student project- its not, seems like the entire Dept is in it. Good stuff.

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Postby mandrake » 17 Sep 2007 02:51

It is definitely not one of student project, It is funded by DST (department of Science and Technology) means they are quite serious for its use, OTOH I think technologies developed here will be later also used for the unmanned naval chopper if any such project is underway.

Interesting thing in this project is it will use the implementation of 'Swarm technique' i.e. , which means implementation of AI as well. See the gallery as well.

Interestingly looking here and there, I'm sure there are literally lots of projects underway, however I'm not sure why isnt DRDO unveilling them, projects like Guided Bombs of 450 kg and 250 kg, Canon launched guided missile (I presume for Arjun?) , Artillary et al.

I feel there is a problem with funding, where project gets off table to rapid prototyping phase and it cannot happen without firm commitment of a buyer, for our case and to build up a market its our armed forces only.

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Govt agency in landmines row at UK arms fair

Postby sunilUpa » 17 Sep 2007 05:35

[quote]LONDON: An Indian government agency has been accused of promoting landmines, banned under international law, at Britain’s biggest arms fair this week. It is the second embarrassment to hit the fair’s organisers - on September 11, they ejected two firms for promoting leg irons, which can be used for repression and torture.
Anti-landmine campaigners on Thursday called on customs officials to investigate the latest allegation. Indian officials said it was “totally falseâ€

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Postby JaiS » 18 Sep 2007 11:00

Business briefs


Radar repair joint venture for indian MIGs

India Bangalore-based Alpha Design Technologies and Russia's Phazotron have formed a joint venture for service, overhaul and spares for the Kopyo radar used in MiG combat aircraft in service with the Indian Air Force. Phozotron, which holds 26% of the joint venture, is the original manufacturer of the Kopyo radar used in the upgraded MiG-21s. The air force and state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics had wanted to establish a dedicated Kopyo facility, but the required technology was not made available to HAL when India bought the MiGs. Currently, Kopyo radars are sent to Phazotron facilities in Russia for repair.

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Postby shiv » 20 Sep 2007 06:27

Perhaps slightly off topic - but not wholly so..

While searching for something else I came across archives of a paper written by my grandfather in 1942.

On the second and third pages of the paper (pgs 184 and 185) he speaks of the miniscule capacity of the defence explosives industry in India (in 1942) - grossly inadequate for India, and the usual secrecy associated with this industry. He calls for the encouragement of private players in the business.

http://www.ias.ac.in/j_archive/currsci/ ... wpage.html

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Postby SaiK » 20 Sep 2007 21:45

[quote]http://www.hindu.com/2007/09/19/stories/2007091955171000.htm
Warfare technology in lucid prose

Rasheed Kappan

Founder-director of DERL has written a book on India’s quest for self-reliance in the field

Narayana Rao has come out with ‘Reminiscences of a Defence Scientist: A quest for self-reliance’

The book illustrates how electronic warfare changed the course of many a battle

V. Narayana Rao

BANGALORE: Think of war and you feel indebted to the soldiers battling the enemy, often against heavy odds.

Yet, the work of Defence scientists, who quietly build up the vital capabilities go unsung.

Unmasking the men and technologies behind the war machines, a retired founder-director of the Hyderabad-based Defence Electronics Research Laboratory (DERL) has ventured to tell a different story through his book: “Reminiscences of a Defence Scientist: A quest for self-reliance.â€

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Postby Vipul » 20 Sep 2007 22:05

Now a DRDO course on Missile Sciences.

India’s top defence research agency has helped launch a university course in missile sciences and opened its labs to students, hoping to infuse young talent into a stagnating technology programme.

India’s missile programme has built short- and long-range missiles, including one that can hit targets deep inside China.

But its projects have been hit by time and cost overruns and the programme has also struggled to attract young engineers and scientists in the face of stiff competition from the more lucrative IT sector, experts say.

A first-of-its-kind Master’s Course in Applied Physics and Ballistics, launched this month at Fakir Mohan University in the eastern state of Orissa, hopes to change that, officials said. “Students have high levels of creativity and we hope their association will help our research activities,â€

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Postby putnanja » 21 Sep 2007 06:59


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Postby Rudranath » 21 Sep 2007 21:22

Indian Armed forces place Rs 2,000 crore orders for DRDO's anti-nuke specialised equipment and systems
Trichy (TN), Sep 21 (PTI)

India's armed forces have placed orders worth over Rs 2,000 crore for specialised equipment and systems to prepare the country against nuclear, biological and chemical weapon strikes.

The equipment and systems to be purchased on fast track, include gear to protect against nuclear and chemical radiation, systems to detect any early threat of nuclear and biological weapons and an advanced medical management system to deal with nuclear fall out, top defence scientist W Selvamurthy said.

"These products are being produced by 30 DRDO and ordnance factories and would be supplied within a period of one year," Selvamurthy, who is the Chief Controller, Research and Design in DRDO told reporters on the sidelines of the annual conference of the Indian Association of Biomedical Scientists here.

He said the products also include nuclear shelters, specialised protective clothing, ruggedised combat weapons, medicines and preventive drugs.

Over 300 top scientists from across the world are participating in the three-day conference that began yesterday.

Selvamurthy also said that DRDO had produced Di-Ethyl Phenyl Acetamide (DEPA) -- which can be used both as body or room spray -- to fight epidemics like chikungunya and dengue fever. PTI


Another feather in the cap of DRDO and a slap in the face of DRDO baiters.

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Postby JCage » 21 Sep 2007 21:36

Thats $ 500 Million worth of NBC equipment. :shock:

Rudra, you are right- this is a massive slap in the face for the likes of Shiv Aroor and Rajat Pandit.

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Postby Rudranath » 22 Sep 2007 17:27

JCage wrote:Thats $ 500 Million worth of NBC equipment. :shock:

Rudra, you are right- this is a massive slap in the face for the likes of Shiv Aroor and Rajat Pandit.



I hope for once Shiv Zarror and Rajat Bandit start taking their jobs seriously and inject a degree of professionalism in their articles other than peddling lies from their "sources".


Waiting to see if this PTI news report is carried by either times group of newspapers or ndtv.

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Postby JCage » 22 Sep 2007 20:09

Heh, expecting the two journos above to show ethics is not just on boss...they ooze slime. They wont ever admit their errors. Anyways..

http://www.bel-india.com/belwebsite/ind ... tionid=380


[quote]4 BEL employees win Shram awards

Four employees of Navratna defence PSU Bharat Electronics Ltd (BEL) have won the Prime Minister’s Shram Awards for the year 2005. The Shram Awards recognize outstanding contributions made by workmen in both public and private sector industries. The award nominees are judged by criteria such as performance record, devotion to work, specific contributions to increase productivity, innovation, presence of mind and courage.

Mrs P Swarupa Rani of BEL’s Hyderabad Unit and Mrs Sobha B K of BEL, Bangalore, have bagged the Shram Devi Awards while Mr Chodagam Veera Venkateswara Rao of BEL, Machilipatnam, and Mr Nagaraja of BEL, Bangalore, have won the Shram Bhushan Award jointly. The Shram Devi Award carries a cash prize of Rs.40,000 while the Shram Bhushan Award carries a cash prize of Rs.1 lakh.

Mrs P Swarupa Rani is a versatile technician, whose efforts have helped BEL indigenize and deliver V/UHF Search Receivers, used in Electronic Warfare, on schedule.

She is an active participant of Quality Control Circles at BEL and has won Excellence Awards at national-level competitions conducted by Quality Circles Forum of India. [i]She had bagged
an award for a case study on “Retrieval of Components from Unused PCBs (Printed Circuit Boards).â€

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Postby gopal.suri » 25 Sep 2007 08:11

The Kanchan Armor

Its same a chobham, different composition.

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Postby A Sharma » 28 Sep 2007 00:38

DRDO recently conducted Development Flight Trials of Nishant UAV System at Kolar range. The flights aimed at proving newly designed Multi-code Multi-frequency (MCMF) Data Link System enabling operation of more than one UAV System in the vicinity. Target acquisition accuracy of Nishant UAV System was well demonstrated during the flight.

Mobility is an important requirement of the Nishant UAV System. The UAV is launched using a hydro-pneumatic launcher and recovered with aero conical parachute and impact attenuation system. The high degree of automation built into the system reduces skill requirements of the pilot to a minimum during critical phases of launch and recovery. The aircraft carries stabilised payload for day and night missions. An on-board flight control and navigation system makes the aircraft fly in an autonomous point navigation mode. The flight trials were witnessed by a number of dignitaries including DCOAS (P&S) besides the user representatives.
DRDO Newsletter

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Postby JCage » 02 Oct 2007 14:13

IRDEs hand held thermal imager, in coop with Alpha Design Tech.

http://www.adtl.co.in/hand_held_sight.html

IRDE Day Sight- can be used with INSAS.

http://www.adtl.co.in/day%20_sight_rifles.html

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Postby JCage » 02 Oct 2007 14:25

More:

http://www.adtl.co.in/news.html

NEWS & EVENTS
Alpha obtains Industrial Licence for 7 different equipment / system.
16/08/2005 Alpha signs JVC Agreement with ITL, Israel 13/02/2005 Alpha signs JVC Agreement with Phazotron, Russia for repair of KOPYO Radars for MiG A.C.
14/02/2007 Alpha signs JVC Agreement with Elettronica, Italy for manufacture of TR Modules.
13/06/2006 Alpha signs JVC Agreement with Sofema, France, for Hptr / Engine spares, Mobile ATCs.
Alpha takes part in MOD / BEL’s RFP for 30,640 Nos Night Vision Devices.
Alpha takes part in RFI for TCS.
Alpha takes part in RFI for UAVs.
Alpha takes part in RFI for NMS.
Alpha takes part in RFP for DUCH.
Alpha obtains ISO-9001-2000 Certification.
Alpha granted DGQA Bulk Production clearance.
Alpha granted DGS&D QA Bulk Production clearance.
Alpha and EADS works to-gether for DARE’s project on MWS.
Alpha develops new BMP II ATGM & Gunnery Simulator.
Alpha & Ukraine develops new Konkur Missile Simulator.
Alpha & AMST partner to-gether in establishing Centrifuge Simulator at IAM, Bangalore.
Alpha & IRDE work to-gether to develop new HHTI Sight
Alpha & C-DOT work to-gether for ULSB Mk III project.
28/11/2006 Ultra modern manufacture facility established with Alpha’s investment of US $ 1 Mn (Rs. 4.6 Cr)
28/11/2006 Alpha acquired M/s. United Microwaves Ltd (UML), Bangalore, who are leaders in developing & supplying indigenous Microwave Components

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Postby Rudranath » 02 Oct 2007 14:50

JCage wrote:IRDEs hand held thermal imager, in coop with Alpha Design Tech.
http://www.adtl.co.in/hand_held_sight.html
IRDE Day Sight- can be used with INSAS.
http://www.adtl.co.in/day%20_sight_rifles.html


JCage wrote:More:
http://www.adtl.co.in/news.html

NEWS & EVENTS
Alpha obtains Industrial Licence for 7 different equipment / system.
16/08/2005 Alpha signs JVC Agreement with ITL, Israel 13/02/2005 Alpha signs JVC Agreement with Phazotron, Russia for repair of KOPYO Radars for MiG A.C.
14/02/2007 Alpha signs JVC Agreement with Elettronica, Italy for manufacture of TR Modules.
13/06/2006 Alpha signs JVC Agreement with Sofema, France, for Hptr / Engine spares, Mobile ATCs.
Alpha takes part in MOD / BEL’s RFP for 30,640 Nos Night Vision Devices.
Alpha takes part in RFI for TCS.
Alpha takes part in RFI for UAVs.
Alpha takes part in RFI for NMS.
Alpha takes part in RFP for DUCH.
Alpha obtains ISO-9001-2000 Certification.
Alpha granted DGQA Bulk Production clearance.
Alpha granted DGS&D QA Bulk Production clearance.
Alpha and EADS works to-gether for DARE’s project on MWS.
Alpha develops new BMP II ATGM & Gunnery Simulator.
Alpha & Ukraine develops new Konkur Missile Simulator.
Alpha & AMST partner to-gether in establishing Centrifuge Simulator at IAM, Bangalore.
Alpha & IRDE work to-gether to develop new HHTI Sight
Alpha & C-DOT work to-gether for ULSB Mk III project.
28/11/2006 Ultra modern manufacture facility established with Alpha’s investment of US $ 1 Mn (Rs. 4.6 Cr)
28/11/2006 Alpha acquired M/s. United Microwaves Ltd (UML), Bangalore, who are leaders in developing & supplying indigenous Microwave Components


Good Find.

Let us enjoy this moment of an Indian company manufacturing world class defense products for our defence services before the "Prophet of Doom" lands here and trash the company(ALPHA DESIGN TECHNOLOGIES PVT LTD). :wink:

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Postby JCage » 02 Oct 2007 15:08

There are now at least 4 Indian companies manufacturing TR Modules & with the ability to make critical radar components such as Receivers, apart from LSP in DRDO Labs and state owned Research labs. This is excellent news from the point of view of Radar & EW development & manufacture.

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Postby Sumeet » 02 Oct 2007 15:15

Alpha's web page i had been searching for it ever since i heard about its JV
with elettronica on EW systems. This company will be our Elisra-Elbit.

L&T will be into ship and submarine building. Tata will go for aircraft developing, manufacturing. Great for india.

If ADTL JVs turn into success, it will suck out experienced engineers/scientists from DARE, DERL, BEL & CAIR. Seems like a new webpage. Hope that they update it soon.

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Postby JCage » 02 Oct 2007 23:54

Sumeet, trust me- theres a load of good stuff coming the EW way from DRDO & others.
India is developing a range of countermeasures (some as JV) and warning systems against possible airborne threats.
The ARH issue has been taken into account!!! :D

This coming decade will finally see the IAF eye to eye with some of the most advanced western AFs in terms of technology, we always had the skill, now we'll have the eqpt to match!!

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Postby putnanja » 06 Oct 2007 07:24

MRF to make tyres for Defence, eyes acquisitions

he Chennai-based tyre-maker MRF Ltd, on Friday said that it was foraying into making tyres for the defence.

This is in addition to the proposed green field plant that the company is setting up in Tiruchi in Tamil Nadu.

Addressing a press conference, K M Mammen, chairman of MRF said that the defence tyre making unit would come up as an additional manufacturing line in one of the existing plants.

"The plant will be dedicated to aircraft tyres for the defence and we have told them that since it will be a dedicated line, they (army) will have to invest the capital, while we will manage the plant," he said. The project report for the same is now being readied.
...

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Postby gopal.suri » 06 Oct 2007 15:30

Molecular Imaging Research Center at INMAS

A state-of-the-art Molecular Imaging & Research Centre with Positron Emission Tomography (PET) facility was inaugurated at Institute of Nuclear Medicine and Allied Sciences (INMAS), a unit of Defence Research and Development Organisation.

PET is the fastest growing technology in Molecular Medicine, used both for clinical application in diagnosis, as well as for advanced research. Positron emission tomography (PET) is a nuclear medicine medical imaging technique which produces a three-dimensional image or map of functional processes in the body.

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Postby skher » 06 Oct 2007 23:12

India tests nuclear capable ballistic missile

Describing the exercise as the first training trial to complete Agni 1's induction process into the army, officials said the intermediate range missile was tested from Wheeler Island near Dhamra in Bhadrak district, about 150 km from the state capital Bhubaneswar, at about 10:40 am.
India's armed forces have placed orders worth over Rs 2,000 crore for specialised equipment and systems to prepare the country against nuclear, biological and chemical weapon strikes.

''We have kept the option of producing another 124 of the better version of the Arjun tank. And when the army uses this tank, God knows, they may just fall in love with it and decide that the entire production line should be Arjuns only,'' said KP Singh, Secretary Defence Production

What is present in DRDO's Agni-1 missile that the Army accepted readily and without a whimper,which is lacking in DRDO's Arjun Mk.1?

Similarily,Nishant was also readily accepted by the IAF but the LCA was rejected by it.

So it seems that the Army/Air Force has something beyond institutionalized hatred for the 'mollycoddling' DRDO....what is that something....I ask you. How has DRDO failed to deliver to its 'customer' a Tank or a Fighter Aircraft yet impressed them with their missiles and UAVs?

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Postby karthik » 07 Oct 2007 00:22

After seeing the News report on Headlines today about the Arjun, I am sort of surprised about its performance. However i have a few questions that i hope some of the more informed members can clarify it to me.

1) I have heard the Kanchan Armour took a point blank hit from a T-72s guns and survived without serious damage and they claim even the ERA is not required to much. Now how did they achieve so much protection without sloping the amour(in the turret)?! Doesn't slope amour decrease the weight and also increase the metals cross section thickness? How does the Kanchan Armour mange not to have sloped armor and still have a reasonable weight ratio? Even the Abrams M1 being a bit heavier than our Arjun MBT has sloped armor, is it then to say we have something better here?

2) The Hydroneumatic suspensions have been quite trouble some in the past, the army wasn't satisfied with its life cycle and performance but DRDO claims it has been sorted out! Now is that true and does it require anymore maintenance than the torsion bar suspension? Can it go on without unmaintained just like the torsion bar suspicions?

3) The Hydroneumatic suspensions looks some what exposed and vulnerable to exterior attacks, would that be a problem if it came under small arms fire or grenade attack which may damage the suspicions and hence make the tank immobile? In other words doesn't the hydroneumatic system look a bit exposed to be considered a weak point?

Thanks.

JCage
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Postby JCage » 07 Oct 2007 00:35

There really needs to be a FAQ for this, we've had the same questions so many times..

karthik wrote:After seeing the News report on Headlines today about the Arjun, I am sort of surprised about its performance. However i have a few questions that i hope some of the more informed members can clarify.

1) I have heard the Kanchan Armour took a point blank hit from a T-72s guns and survived without serious damage and they claim even the ERA is not required to much. Now how did they achieve so much strength without sloping the amour?! Doesn't slope amour decrease the weight and also increase the metals cross section thickness? How does the Kanchan Armour mange not have sloped armor and still have a reasonable weight ratio? Even the Abrams M1 being a bit heavier than our Arjun MBT has sloped armor, is it then to say we have something better here?


Sloped armour is not magic and nor is it bad. All it means is that the designers tried to incorporate as many armour arrays as possible into the design by maximizing the volume available for armour.
Remember, what you are seeing is the exterior of the tank- that sloped shape is not armour, but the heavy RHA shell, within which the actual modules are placed. Sloped shaping- apart from the above, had uses against earlier gen FSAPDS which could ricochet off the tank.
Today, this doesnt hold true as modern long rod FSAPDS penetrate as is.
In the case of the Arjun, the "block shape" actually holds the large armour arrays within, which are the actual defeat mechanism of the incoming round whether HEAT or FSAPDS.

2) The Hydroneumatic suspensions have been quite trouble some in the past, the army wasn't satisfied with its life cycle and performance but DRDO claims it has been sorted out! Now is that true and does it require anymore maintenance than the torsion bar suspension? Can it go on without unmaintained just like the torsion bar suspicions?


Hydropneumatic suspensions by their nature are more maintenance intensive, but this will occur at the depot level. The complete unit by itself is sealed and has a high MTBF. The latter is what the IA wanted DRDO to achieve and they did it. The advantage of hydrogas over the torsion bar unit is that of greater ride comfort and smoothness- important for not just crew comfort but for fire control accuracy.



3) The Hydroneumatic suspensions looks some what exposed and vulnerable to exterior attacks, would that be a problem if it came under small arms fire or grenade attack which may damage the suspicions and hence make the tank immobile? In other words doesn't the hydroneumatic system look a bit exposed to be considered a weak point?
Thanks.


You can take several of those units out and the Arjun will still be mobile on account of the remaining wheels.
The key to disabling the Arjun, or for that matter any large MBT of its size is not the wheels or the suspension, its the tracks. Disable it by having a mine blow out a track and any tank whether it be an Abrams or a T-90 or an Arjun will be immobile.

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Postby shetty » 07 Oct 2007 00:43

SonarDeshi wrote:What is present in DRDO's Agni-1 missile that the Army accepted readily and without a whimper,which is lacking in DRDO's Arjun Mk.1?

Similarily,Nishant was also readily accepted by the IAF but the LCA was rejected by it.

So it seems that the Army/Air Force has something beyond institutionalized hatred for the 'mollycoddling' DRDO....what is that something....I ask you. How has DRDO failed to deliver to its 'customer' a Tank or a Fighter Aircraft yet impressed them with their missiles and UAVs?


If IA does not accept the missiles, can they go around the world and shop for a 5000 km missile????

IAF can readily buy an aircraft as good as a Eurofighter and even maybe a F-35, IA can buy T-90 or any other it wants. Take that away and IA will come runnig for Arjun and IAF will come running for LCA.

BTW, thats not just us, it will be tue for everyone.

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Postby JCage » 07 Oct 2007 00:43

Sonar please post with some adequate research before making such assumptions and queries. Be as it may:

SonarDeshi wrote:What is present in DRDO's Agni-1 missile that the Army accepted readily and without a whimper,which is lacking in DRDO's Arjun Mk.1?


The Arjun is a tank and is a completely different system as compared to an unmanned missile. Why compare? Besides, the Agni-1 has had over a decades worth of missile tech via the Agni series to develop and mature.

Similarily,Nishant was also readily accepted by the IAF but the LCA was rejected by it.


The Nishant has NOT been accepted by the IAF. It is completely unsuitable for their requirements of long loiter time, long range and medium altitude. The Nishant was accepted by the Army after a long struggle given the complexity involved in making a short range hydropneumatic arm launched UAV system with a parabag landing unit. The last is what is a huge challenge since it can damage fragile UAV systems and puts a life time limit per UAV in terms of missions before it has to be scrapped or rebuilt.

The LCA has NOT been rejected by the IAF. It is still under development!! Only when it completes FOC and if the IAF were to refuse it would such a statement be correct. Even that is very unlikely given the number of times FH Major and his predecessor have repeatedly stated that they will rely on the MKI-MRCA-LCA as a heavy-medium-light combo. Cant you look up even these basic facts?

So it seems that the Army/Air Force has something beyond institutionalized hatred for the 'mollycoddling' DRDO....what is that something....I ask you. How has DRDO failed to deliver to its 'customer' a Tank or a Fighter Aircraft yet impressed them with their missiles and UAVs?


Has it struck you that a) your conclusions are incorrect and based on incorrect assumptions and b) that developing a tank and a fighter aircraft are quite hard and take a long gestation time, since they are not unmanned and require mastery over many interrelated disciplines?!

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Postby karthik » 07 Oct 2007 01:02

JCage wrote:There really needs to be a FAQ for this, we've had the same questions so many times..


I know but the threads where so long it didn't look conclusive to the reader. Thanks for this clarification though, i was getting confused.


Sloped armour is not magic and nor is it bad. All it means is that the designers tried to incorporate as many armour arrays as possible into the design by maximizing the volume available for armour. Remember, what you are seeing is the exterior of the tank- that sloped shape is not armour, but the heavy RHA shell, within which the actual modules are placed. Sloped shaping- apart from the above, had uses against earlier gen FSAPDS which could ricochet off the tank.
Today, this doesnt hold true as modern long rod FSAPDS penetrate as is.
In the case of the Arjun, the "block shape" actually holds the large armour arrays within, which are the actual defeat mechanism of the incoming round whether HEAT or FSAPDS.


I get it, but almost all the tanks in the world depend on sloped armor for weight reduction and increased strength(according to wait ratio that is) now our MBT alone stands out in the crowd, so to be conclusive do we dare say, it is better or equal to sloped armors in most Western tanks, or will it be getting carried away in the Indian 20/20 world cup style and Australia teaching us a bitter lesson in reality?!


Hydropneumatic suspensions by their nature are more maintenance intensive, but this will occur at the depot level. The complete unit by itself is sealed and has a high MTBF. The latter is what the IA wanted DRDO to achieve and they did it. The advantage of hydrogas over the torsion bar unit is that of greater ride comfort and smoothness- important for not just crew comfort but for fire control accuracy.



I understand the only other tank out there which had this type of suspension is the MBT-70 which was far ahead of its time but wasn't inducted into the Army for cost over run reason and the programme was shut down, which was also the path our Arjun was taking and would have taken, if they had not come up with the solution to these problems. So my question is do we again dare say conclusively that we have succeeded in something the Americans couldn't do with their Abrams M1? Then why don't the Americans who designed the system first not go for it?


You can take several of those units out and the Arjun will still be mobile on account of the remaining wheels.
The key to disabling the Arjun, or for that matter any large MBT of its size is not the wheels or the suspension, its the tracks. Disable it by having a mine blow out a track and any tank whether it be an Abrams or a T-90 or an Arjun will be immobile.


I forgot about that, thanks.

P.S. I know these questions sound quite novice for BR standards but i would appreciate a conclusive answer, i know some times you tend to get quite biased towards DRDO products but i hope you have considered its pros and cons in a very unbiased way.
Last edited by karthik on 07 Oct 2007 01:24, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby skher » 07 Oct 2007 01:21

JCage wrote:Sonar please post with some adequate research before making such assumptions and queries. Be as it may:

SonarDeshi wrote:What is present in DRDO's Agni-1 missile that the Army accepted readily and without a whimper,which is lacking in DRDO's Arjun Mk.1?


The Arjun is a tank and is a completely different system as compared to an unmanned missile. Why compare? Besides, the Agni-1 has had over a decades worth of missile tech via the Agni series to develop and mature.

Similarily,Nishant was also readily accepted by the IAF but the LCA was rejected by it.


The Nishant has NOT been accepted by the IAF. It is completely unsuitable for their requirements of long loiter time, long range and medium altitude. The Nishant was accepted by the Army after a long struggle given the complexity involved in making a short range hydropneumatic arm launched UAV system with a parabag landing unit. The last is what is a huge challenge since it can damage fragile UAV systems and puts a life time limit per UAV in terms of missions before it has to be scrapped or rebuilt.

The LCA has NOT been rejected by the IAF. It is still under development!! Only when it completes FOC and if the IAF were to refuse it would such a statement be correct. Even that is very unlikely given the number of times FH Major and his predecessor have repeatedly stated that they will rely on the MKI-MRCA-LCA as a heavy-medium-light combo. Cant you look up even these basic facts?

So it seems that the Army/Air Force has something beyond institutionalized hatred for the 'mollycoddling' DRDO....what is that something....I ask you. How has DRDO failed to deliver to its 'customer' a Tank or a Fighter Aircraft yet impressed them with their missiles and UAVs?


Has it struck you that a) your conclusions are incorrect and based on incorrect assumptions and b) that developing a tank and a fighter aircraft are quite hard and take a long gestation time, since they are not unmanned and require mastery over many interrelated disciplines?!


I made no assumptions.
I was just humbly asking what did the DRDO do so differently and right in terms of project management etc that Agni-1 and UAVs went without major hiccups whereas LCA and Arjun had 'percievably' many.

You've answered my query suitably...which lies in the complexity of LCA and Arjun vs missiles and UAVs.I was inquiring whether there were other factors as well.
I apologize if I exasperated you.it's completely understandable.It's just that the constant disinformation regarding LCA's/Arjun's progress gets on one's nerves and one starts seeking straight answers to clear the air. I recommend a sticky on LCA/Armor threads to get some basic accurate facts straight.

I think I didn't frame the question properly.I regret the error.


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