A Tale of Two Hydraulic Systems

Jagan · Post by **Jagan** » 07 Nov 2002 11:31

Originally posted by John Umrao:
Folks I was part of that kind of "Mela" (cutting my 5 th grade classes in Mahbub college) when a vampire crashed in 'Sikh Village' in 1965/66 (IIRC). So its a tradition going strong since then.
Jagan garu>> your records will show IAF Vampire crash in sikh village also the HS-748 crash on my friends (Vakil a parsee gentelman)home (roof top) near secunderabad station.

Umraoji,

Though I am not sure of the Vampire (I am sure there must have been dozens of them flying around in Hakimpet and equallyl dozens that crashed in and around Hyderabad), I do remember the Avro crash in secunderabad near railway nilayam. It was actually an Indian Airlines one on a training flight with three crew members.

Jagan

Jagan · Post by **Jagan** » 07 Nov 2002 20:17

Here is some info sent by a lurker to put the Jaguar attrition rate of the IAF in better perspective.

RAF Jaguar attrition details

Period in service : 1972- Till date 30 years+
Total delivered : 206 (Incl 36 two seaters)
Total Jaguars Lost in accidents : 68 (Incl 12 two Seaters)
aircraft that are airworthy now : Approx 55

Oh yes, they had their fair share of Mid Air collisions, Undercarraige failures due to Hydraulic leaks, Bird hits, Failure to clear the Arrester barrier (like the first Jag crash this year), Control Restrictions due to improperly fastened objects in rear cockpits (similar to the box incident) and Sudden Engine failures.

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 08 Nov 2002 00:26

aircraft that are airworthy now : Approx 55

Jagan, according to the BR IAF site, IAF is supposed to have 84 IS and 16 IM versions, for a total of 90. Even excluding the reservers, it amounts to 66. So, does it mean others were mothballed/cannibalized ?

Priyank · Post by **Priyank** » 08 Nov 2002 01:16

He's talking about the RAF's jaguars, not the IAF's.

Rudra · Post by **Rudra** » 08 Nov 2002 01:24

Reserves are just reserves for normal a/c. They are kept aside to preserve airframe hrs and hedge against attrition. for a a/c like Jag with stable spares chain there isnt a need for cannibalizing.

Arun_S · Post by **Arun_S** » 08 Nov 2002 02:14

Originally posted by Jagan:

Originally posted by John Umrao:
Folks I was part of that kind of "Mela" (cutting my 5 th grade classes in Mahbub college) when a vampire crashed in 'Sikh Village' in 1965/66 (IIRC). So its a tradition going strong since then.
Jagan garu>> your records will show IAF Vampire crash in sikh village also the HS-748 crash on my friends (Vakil a parsee gentelman)home (roof top) near secunderabad station.
Umraoji,

Though I am not sure of the Vampire (I am sure there must have been dozens of them flying around in Hakimpet and equallyl dozens that crashed in and around Hyderabad), I do remember the Avro crash in secunderabad near railway nilayam. It was actually an Indian Airlines one on a training flight with three crew members.

Jagan

And around 1977 I remember running from the IAF side of the airfield to the other side (east)of the runway and see the Indian Airlines B737 burn after an aborted takeoff and run aground breaching the airfield boundry. One passanger died in that crash.

Jagan · Post by **Jagan** » 11 Nov 2002 21:35

Originally posted by Arun_S:And around 1977 I remember running from the IAF side of the airfield to the other side (east)of the runway and see the Indian Airlines B737 burn after an aborted takeoff and run aground breaching the airfield boundry. One passanger died in that crash.[/QB]

You were there at that time of the crash?

I must have been 3 or 4 years old at that time and i was taken there to see the wreck. The aircraft was lying in three pieces and IIRC, some three kids on the ground apparently goat herders were also killed during the aborted TO. One of the passengers who had an escape was the (Later?)CM Marri Chenna Reddy

Today almost all the aircraft TO in the opposite direction. (TO heading west)

saint · Post by **saint** » 11 Nov 2002 22:24

reg: crowd [mela] tradition.. its everywhere in the man-jungles of india. if the authorities don't get their in time, like the piranahs nothing will be left for investigation.

involving the crowd to do the garbage collection, would be an ideal choice. Else, they know how to salvage things from the crash faster than the speed of light

JCage · Post by **JCage** » 18 Nov 2002 19:34

Originally posted by Surya:
It is a shame that Vishnu Som of all people had to author that stupid Jag piece.

The last crash was a sad affair and the IAF lost a extremely talented pilot due to a terrible emergency. The pilot did not abort a take off.

What hope do we have for the Hypes etc?

Indeed.The kindest word for that piece would be moronic.With lines like these...

"The loss of yet another aircraft and indeed the loss of innocent
lives on the ground is another embarrassment for the Indian Air
Force which has a reputation of having some of the highest crash
rates in the world. "

Looks like sensationalism and dirt sell.And everyone is/are susceptible.

Regards,
Nitin

Kapil · Post by **Kapil** » 18 Nov 2002 23:33

Hi,
I was among those BRites who were fortunate to get a narration of the incident with a lucid exposition of an aircraft's hydraulics from Suresh Sir and Kalyan Sir.As a result,the restaurant's spirits cash register was going kerrang kerrang continuously.Indeed,there are pictures of me,Merlin Wizard,Mighty Maz,Cool Doc,Snappy Simha,Enigmatic Philip ,Recce Raghu and Krazy Kersi all gaping and looking slightly dazed as the narration was going on.
Palit Sir's description was engrossing,and self depreciating at times.What we got was an inside glimpse in the razor sharp mind of a test pilot.(One things for sure..these guys are obstinate!)
And the finale was Palit Sir's relieved observation when his Jag came to a halt that-'Well,at least i don't have jump from a higher position!' It was humour like this interspersed with some marvellous flying that made this whole tale and consequently the evening memorable.
Shiv,what was that dessert again,btw?the one I had 3 helpings of?

There are probably many tales like these,of brave operators getting the better of non responsive systems,whose performance and operational parameters were probably not available to the operators before tragedy struck.And such tales will never be publicised.Instead the usual crap of the uninformed of this world will find prominence.Air HQ ought to highlight such incidents to demonstrate to an increasingly cynical public that-'Hey,we do our job.When we succeed,we succeed and learn from the incident.When we fail,then all of us lose something.But the learning still goes on'.

I suspect we'll learn new things from Vipin Rehani's Jag crash too.From reports,his aircraft really went down on him,and the toll could have been much worse had it not been for his training.

Regards,
Kapil

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 19 Nov 2002 00:48

Thanks, Kapil for your recollection.

Meantime looks like this is the Jag crash thread.
Pravin Sawheny in Pioneer, 11/17/02....
Cutting short the fighters' flight
Comparing the Air Force of India and Pakistan, Pravin Sawhney says that the absence of AJTs and poor maintenance may cost us
Following the recent Jaguar air crash in Ambala which killed nine civilians, Defence Minister George Fernandes had called for a high-level meeting - to be attended by the Chief of Air Staff, senior officials, pilots and technicians - to find out reasons for the rather high incidence of air crashes. Calling it an accident, he denied that Jaguar aircraft suffered from defects and asserted that it was the safest aircraft in the Air Force.

Fernandes needs to be reminded that according to the annual report 2001-2002 of his ministry: "The original IAF version of Jaguar Navigation and Weapon Aiming Sub System needs an avionics upgrade." The same report says that "the MiG-27 aircraft too needs an avionics upgrade to improve its operational effectiveness by day and night". The reasons why this has not happened are financial constraints and prioritisation of the IAF. According to top IAF sources, as many as 100 MiG-27s may be unserviceable.

Considering that umpteen high-powered committees on aircraft accidents have pinpointed reasons for the high rate of accidents, Fernandes' recent meeting could not have added much. According to the September 1997 report of the Abdul Kalam (now, President of India) Committee on fighter aircraft accidents, human error caused by unsatisfactory training and a poor degree of aircraft maintenance are responsible for most of the mishaps. The committee's major recommendation was that there should be an early induction of Advanced Jet Trainers (AJTs). It advocated other sweeping improvements in training standards, including increased use of simulators. Simulators are a good low-cost option for various aspects of pilot training like ground attack, navigation and even air combat. But because simulation cannot replace real airborne training, AJTs are a must.

During his first stint as the Defence Minister, Fernandes had confirmed to the Defence Ministry Consultative Committee that the AJT issue would be finalised by December 2000. The deadline has expired even as a new competitor has recently emerged to the nearly-decided British Aerospace Hawk aircraft. The government has put procurement of AJTs, sought since 18 years, on the back-burner and the IAF is hesitant to spend its scarce resources on simulators. A former chief of the Air force confirmed to this writer, in private, that too little budget allocations were having an adverse operational impact on the IAF. One such impact was on flight safety, as flying hours may be reduced and maintenance could suffer. It may be remembered that between 1991 and 1996, there was a drastic reduction in flying hours because the collapse of the Soviet Union had resulted in an acute shortage of spares and product support for aircraft of Soviet origin. The MiG-29 pilots are required to routinely fly 250 hours a year and the Mirage pilots average over 200 hours. The IAF, however, has clarified in its annual report of 2001-2002 that accident statistics have actually come down.

This has been possible after various operational safety management workshops were conducted to reduce, if not completely eliminate, human errors by aircrew and servicing personnel. So far, so good. In the larger sense, the two questions emerging from aircraft accidents are: how good are IAF pilot training and aircraft health as compared with, say, the Pakistan Air Force (PAF). The PAF pilots, as compared to their Indian counterparts, are younger and well-trained. A PAF squadron commander takes charge at the age of about 34 years, which is six years younger than that of the IAF's officer. Worse, with the two-year retirement extension given by the current government to servicemen, Group Captains in IAF are being forced to command transport squadrons and helicopter units. Furthermore, unlike in India, military service in Pakistan is a prestigious career, where young men from well-to-do families join.

Understandably, the housing facilities at forward air bases in Pakistan are better than those in India. The impact of all this on the morale of IAF personnel is too obvious to need elaboration. Pilot training in PAF is extremely rigorous, orderly and effective. According to Pushpinder Singh, who has done commendable research on PAF, of the 20 combat squadrons with the PAF, only 12 are full-fledged combat units. The remaining eight squadrons are all concerned with operational and conversion training, but that commitment varies according to the demand for pilots. Almost all of them have operational roles to fulfil. Five of these squadrons are commonly referred to as Operational Conversion Units (OCUs), and a good proportion of their effort is directed towards providing a steady stream of qualified aircrew. Each of the five major types of aircraft in the PAF inventory is supported by an OCU squadron.

Another advantage with the PAF pilots is that they have flown all major advanced aircraft with friendly Islamic Gulf countries. Since the 1970s, PAF pilots have been working in Saudi Arabia, Abu Dhabi, UAE, and even the Turkish Air Force. PAF pilots working in the Royal Saudi Air Force flew F-15 aircraft combat missions during the 1991 Operation Desert Storm against Iraq, and are thus familiar with high-tech warfare.

The PAF, therefore, has more high-tech orientation than its IAF counterparts. Not only are the PAF pilots younger, well-trained and well-versed with a variety of advanced western aircraft in the inventory of Gulf countries, their numbers - as compared to the IAF - are also large.

For example, the IAF graduates about 150 of its own pilots annually, of which nearly 100 go to fighters. The remaining join the large 500 aircraft transport and helicopter aircraft crew. In contrast, the PAF also trains about 150 pilots annually, all of which go to the fighters. In Pakistan, the helicopter pilots are trained by the Army, and it has a small number of transport aircraft. The situation, therefore, exists where the PAF with nearly half the number of combat aircraft than the IAF - 400 aircraft verses 750 aircraft - graduates annually about as many combat pilots. The implication is that as compared to the IAF, the PAF not only has younger pilots, the pilot-aircraft ratio is much higher.

Explained, this means that in a war, the PAF - even with smaller combat numbers - would be able to sustain a much higher sortie rate than the IAF. In addition, the IAF will have to take into account about 50 to 100 additional sophisticated aircraft joining the PAF "on loan" from friendly Islamic nations who employ PAF pilots.

Regarding the poor degree of maintenance, which is also responsible for high accident rates of IAF aircraft, the PAF is more comfortably placed. Since the 1980s, the IAF has introduced 25 different types of aircraft, including variants, while the PAF has inducted five basic types. Maintaining the IAF fleet, which comes from different countries of origin, is a nightmare. For this reason, India turned down the recent offer of F-16 aircraft made by the US to a visiting Indian defence delegation.

Had India accepted the US offer, it would have added to its maintenance dilemma. Worse, it would have provided the US with the much looked-for opportunity to give additional F-16 aircraft to its ally on the sub-continent, Pakistan. Therefore, it becomes all too clear that the IAF is not in a healthy shape. The least it needs is an AJT and a review of its fleet maintenance to cut down on aircraft accidents.

Samir · Post by **Samir** » 19 Nov 2002 02:22

Re: Jag crash at Ambala:

Quoth an IAF pilot:

"Rehani is safe....something must have gone badly wrong with it. I spoke to him, the ac kept rolling left after take off. He took a lot of steps to try and fix it before he ejected."

JCage · Post by **JCage** » 19 Nov 2002 09:22

Sawhney does it again...
The top IAF sources said bit comes directly from the Defensenews report circulated last year.Sigh.
And then we have the usual PAF saga to hear.
There are a lot of inaccuarcies in that report as well.First the pilot to airframe ratio is nowhere as high as the PAF claims it to be!That has been admitted by some PAF men.But the propoganda and hype has done its bit!Note that the Pakis were planning,at one stage,to have retd AF types redrafted and create a kind of local Paki ANG.They wouldnt even have contemplated that,if huge numbers of excess pilots were around.
This graduation bit,and only the top 1% become fighter pilots are big myths assiduously projected by the PAF thru every chance/outlet it gets.

And that bit about high strike sorties......

Strike sorties just dont depend on one pilot jumping in,another out.They depend on maintenance.Does the PAF have ample reserves of *all* eqpt?Does the PAF have the same of munition?
How long would the PAF be able to sustain the Logistics end and at what intensity?
Let us note that the PAF is now the "beggar" in fund allocations re: army centric pakistan and they have been having a tough time for a long time now.On report said that even cermonial functions at cantt. etc were practically gone,as there were no funds.And the Army takes the biggest chunk of everything.When your funding is low,you subsist.Thats all.Not excel!

Sawhney should read the AFM bit about even NVG's not being used by the PAF on a regular basis as resources are limited!

So how are these chaps well trained?

They dont have an ACMI,nor a comprehensive EW range on the levesl of what we have,or mobile ones,nor the extensive range of PGM and BVR munitions the IAF has.They lag badly in EW at all levels.Ditto in ELINT.
So wheres the technological edge??And so how is a PAF officer well trained in non-existent tech?

Just because Pak pilots are sent as keepsakes to the Gulf doesnt mean they necessarily are better!Or operate everything the Gulf has,say the AWACS etc.We knbow the fracas that resulted in the UAEAF wanting Block 60 Falcons and the thought of Pakis flying them.

He begins with correct data ,but then again goes haywire!The MiG29 data is true,but afaik,Mirage flight hours are also very high due to their multirole stuff.Of course,the dedicated full scale M2K sim in IAF service helps.

Re:The Jag avionics being outdated..and ditto 27.How bad are they compared to what the Bulk of the PAF fleet has?
The Jag HUDWAC/DARIN/COMED system compares favourably to what gets the job done.DitTo for the 27!
The paki fleet bulk-F7 has literally no INS updated navig aids.The latest PG doesnt even have a dedicated radar display and uses the HUD for the same.Talk about 70's tech.

And yet again,a reliance on the old defnews report.

Samir,
Thanks.Glad to know the pilot is ok!!

Regards,
Nitin

Umrao · Post by **Umrao** » 19 Nov 2002 09:39

All journalists who write about IAF and or defence related matters are just dorks. Pure and simple. IAF is fine shape all that needs to be done release the funds and buy genuine spares.

Everything else is fine as a fiddle.

Johann · Post by **Johann** » 20 Nov 2002 01:46

The PAF's pilot-to-cokpit ratio probably is better than India's, but it is also unlikely to be high enough to compensate for the widening capability gap with the IAF. Given the intensity of a trans-IB war today, unless the PAF abdicated from the fight it would find itself haemmorhaging experienced flyers at an unsustainable rate. Keeping recently retired pilots on active reserve would make sense, providing you could actually pay for regular flying time on frontline a/c.

The Pakistanis also seem to be conservative in the number of air frames maintained as war wastage reserves.

I dont beleive that Pakistan's Arab friends will make aircraft available, but there are a few useful things I expect they will do if the Pakistanis make a high level appeal
- release seconded PAF flying officers
- allow the airlift of US munitions, Mirage & F-16 spares from their stocks (unless blocked by the Americans)

The Chinese will also be able to airlift significant numbers of spares and munitions for the F-7/MG/PG fleet, and possibly even a few additional air frames.

These arent glamorous high-profile contributions but they would be essential in keeping the PAF flying, and in a short war time is critical.

I'm not sure why Praveen Sawhney thought all of this was directly related to IAF flight safety. But its really not that unusual - during the Cold War (and even today) there was a class of ex-military writers in the West who chiefly supported themselves by telling us why we are falling behind, and doomed to defeat if the balloon ever went up.

Roop · Post by **Roop** » 20 Nov 2002 03:27

I'm not sure why Praveen Sawhney thought...

Pravin Sawhney is one of those DDM champions who crawl out from under a rock from time to time, trash the Indian armed forces, and go back into hiding. This will no doubt gain them much prestige among the "sky is falling" crowd in the Indian and NRI elites, but I don't see why we have to uncritically accept what he says. Consider what he has already written in the past several months:

Indian missile forces are junk. GoI is bluffing about its strategic capability. TSP's missiles are fine, top-quality machines. Panic! Panic! Panic! The sky is falling!
</li>
Indian nukes are worthless duds. TSP's nukes are fine, top-quality devices. Panic! Panic! Panic! The sky is falling!
</li>
Indian tanks are rusting, useless junktraps. 75% (or pick any number that you want out of a hat) of the T-72 force is unfit for battle. TSP's tanks are fine, top-quality machines. Panic! Panic! Panic! The sky is falling!
</li>
Indian artillery is junk. Too few guns/MLRS. Panic! Panic! Panic! The sky is falling!
</li>
Indian troops in J&K are suffering from low morale, health problems and sexual dysfunction. Panic! Panic! Panic! The sky is falling!
</li>

So much for the IA. Now this guy's latest target is the IAF. So:

IAF pilots are middle-aged low-IQ dolts who lack training on modern aircraft. TSP's pilots are young, intelligent, well-trained, tall, fair, handsome, tight-assed, with skin complexion like pomegranates topped with whipped cream. They are each worth ten IAF pilots. And there are more of them to begin with (PAF has no trouble recruiting, IAF just can't round up any decent candidates. It's that damned booming civilian economy thingie, you see). Panic! Panic! Panic! The sky is falling!
</li>
In time of war, India would be doomed to fight using its own aircraft (which are, in any case, useless rustbuckets that fall from the sky like rocks). Pakistan would have its fine fleet of modern aircraft, plus they would have all kinds of Arab countries falling over themselves offering their own air forces to help the glorious Fizzie Ya Ya. (Oh, by the way, did I mention that Paki pilots are tall fair, handsome... etc.?) Panic! Panic! Panic! The sky is falling!
</li>

That takes care of the Army and the AIr Force. Expect the Indian Navy to be next on this dork's hit list.

Samir · Post by **Samir** » 21 Nov 2002 02:30

"Furthermore, unlike in India, military service in Pakistan is a prestigious career, where young men from well-to-do families join."

While the rest of Sawhney's piece of inaccurate and bothersome in its own right, this little line gives the game away, and I hope we can save this piece as proof of Sawhney's idiocy.

The problem with Sawhney is that he is a self-hating Indian (no big deal, I used to be one myself). But he hasn't grown up. And he is still embarassed by his country. He is still embarassed that IAF pilots don't speak with clipped, propah accents, like the brown sahibs that Sawhney so admires.

Yes, Parvin, I'm very sorry that young men from major metropolitan centers who went to the best public schools are not joining the military services. But not-so-well-to-do young men, who don't speak English with public school accents, and who didn't go to St. Stephens, or LaMarts, or Xaviers, and who come from Sonepat, Hapar or wherever, still join the military and some of them make damn good pilots and soldiers.

So stuff you and your lot Parvin, and may your tribe be eliminated.

Harry · Post by **Harry** » 21 Nov 2002 03:51

Why does one waste time and bandwidth in posting garbage by ferrous cranus dirt merchants like Praveen sawhney?

Here are a few facts

- The IAF logs 3,20,000+ hrs annually.The PAF logs 70,000 hrs anually.(and with a pilot:cockpit ratio of 2:1).Do the math.A-5 pilots get less than 150 hrs on the type and ex-F-16 pilots like Sameen mazhar have accumulated a wonderous 500 hrs over 5-7 years!

- At squadron entry level,an IAF pilot has almost twice the amount of hrs on trainers than a PAF pilot.(even excluding simulator hrs)

- The PAF has no ACMI.The IAF has the world's best ACMI at TACDE ie the BVR systems Ehud.USA refused to sell India an ACMI because it would "exponentially increase a pilot's skills".So <img src="http://www.click-smilie.de/sammlung/teu ... fel017.gif" alt="" /> you,sawhney!

- At higher levels,an IAF pilot would have logged nearly twice the flying time of a PAF pilot.IIRC you need something like 600 hrs to get promoted to a Mig-23 sqn.Only the most elite fly the Su-30s,MiG-29s,Jaguars and Mirages.

-PAF does'nt conduct joint excercises or combined operations training to the extent that IAF does.Not even close.

-The PAF is not trained in BVR tactics.Nuff' said.

-Acc.AFM(which need not neccesarily be accurate),the PAF's doctrine is based on the dated chinese/russian ones.One things for sure though,their reliance on GCI is much greater.

-PAF pilots are largely being replaced by a Turkish presence in the UAE.There are also a greater number of Egyptian pilots there.IAF pilots(like AM Bhavani)were flying F-16s in Israel before the PAF even got theirs!They still do and many are deputed to several countries.

-Logistics,munitions,oil reserves - does the PAF even compare?

-PAF pilots do their lead in fighter training on FT-5s mostly.Is that an AJT?There are only 6-8 K-8s and plans are being made to upgrade existing T-37s to fill in.Is that an AJT?

-It was the 'short,dark rice eating' IAF that trained the RMAF's Mig-29 instructors.The influence of the IAF instructor presence in Iraq is also explained in another thread by TomC.Ghana and Namibia are entirely IAF trained.

-IAF attrition is still,way below the PAF's.

-The PAF does'nt have anything like the IAF's EW,ECM,COMINT,SIGINT and Elint assets.Integration and joint training?Have they even heard of such things?

and that's just the tip of the ice-berg.No point in allocating more time to rebut the fantasies of a known idiot with a historic case of rearenditis.One thing nice about pakistan is that if they had a sawhney,he'd have been shot or thrown in the slammer,by now.

PAF pilots working in the Royal Saudi Air Force flew F-15 aircraft combat missions during the 1991 Operation Desert Storm against Iraq, and

How does one come up with such crap?I simply don't understand!Not even the worst of paki flamers come up with such things!

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 21 Nov 2002 03:59

Harry, Sawheny writes what he is told. So someone is telling him stuff. BTW, his email is in todays Pioneer in the Oped section - pravinsawhney@vsnl.net . Why dont we invite him and make him aware of facts?

Harry · Post by **Harry** » 21 Nov 2002 04:07

I guess that someone would be Ayaz ahmed khan or Mushaf ali mir.

Does'nt seem worth it to waste time and resources on a guy with sawhney's background.C'mon,as if he'd suddenly turn over a new leaf after getting a bitter dose of BR spanking?

'Pakistani pilots doing F-15 sorties against Iraq'..sheesh!!

Sunil · Post by **Sunil** » 21 Nov 2002 04:38

> career in the PAF is attractive people from well to-do families join it.

Umm Praveen, what works for the PAF also works other arms of the Pakistani Services, so how about an alternate explanation that fits all three?

Rich people in Pakistan join the Pakistan Army largely because it offers a really easy way of siphoning off cash from the national economy. The scale of kickbacks and bribery in the Pakistani Armed forces makes them *the ultimate choice* for the reasonably savvy Pakistani. I mean look at the NAB's list of top embezzlers, the "Billionaries" list is topped entirely by Pakistani Armed forces officers or their dependants.

Yes, there are a sizeable number of "young","tall","fair","tight-ar*ed" people (who I am sure you would get along just fine with) who join the Pakistan Armed forces for the love of God, King and Country, but the little extra hundred million USD that you can definetely make on the side is quite an attraction.

How many IAF officers do you know of who have been caught smuggling heroin? Atleast three PAF chaps have been caught with fantastic quantities of the same.

The Pakistani Armed forces are an attractive career option because they offer an almost instant power trip. In addition to instantly qualifying you as a winner for the "Kickback Lottery", the Pakistani Armed forces also offer you the possibility of becoming "Martial Law Administrator" or "Governor of NWFP or Sindh".

I am not saying that there aren't ideologically motivated people in the PAF, but where else would they be? Only the PAF offers the seriously religous types an opportunity to take up wonderfully desirable postings like "Drug Runner to the US & C-130 Spare Parts negotiator", or "Bin Laden's Personal Aviation Commander", or " Principal Go-between for James D Woosley DCIA and the Taliban" or "Room-mate to Mohammed Atta".

The IAF doesn't attract such people as it does not offer such incentives.

Harry,

> waste of time.

you may be right, but some target practice isn't bad.

Roop · Post by **Roop** » 21 Nov 2002 09:17

Originally posted by ramana:

Harry, Sawheny writes what he is told.

What is he, a journalist or a stenographer? Has he ever thought to ask his sources some critical questions, or does he see his role as merely regurgitating what his sources tell him?

I guess that someone would be Ayaz ahmed khan or Mushaf ali mir.

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 21 Nov 2002 09:40

Originally posted by Harry:
PAF pilots working in the Royal Saudi Air Force flew F-15 aircraft combat missions during the 1991 Operation Desert Storm against Iraq, and

The only place where pakis saw any action were the mess halls in KSA, where they served crappy food.

And thats a fact! No kidding!!

JCage · Post by **JCage** » 21 Nov 2002 10:13

Originally posted by John Umrao:
All journalists who write about IAF and or defence related matters are just dorks. Pure and simple. IAF is fine shape all that needs to be done release the funds and buy genuine spares.

Everything else is fine as a fiddle.

Umrao sahab,are you in your sarcastic mode or are wearing a genuine hat?Its hard to tell sometimes.

Sunil,
On the dot as usual.The people who go into the IAF,IA and IN in India:

1.Per their dream
2.Per their "desire" to do something challenging and make a living
3.Follow family tradition etc
4.Make a career,get somewhere,make a living etc.

The power brokers go into Youth Congress,ABVP,....

In Pakistan,if one was a lad with a thirst for the good things in life...where would one go?The services.

A golf tournament every other day,a few whiskies at the club..and tell the bloody sowars under you to get on with it,fire a few rounds at the Indians...

Regards,
Nitin

Vishnu · Post by **Vishnu** » 21 Nov 2002 10:18

Rather shocked that many on this post are angry/shocked by my referring to the latest Jaguar crash as an embarrassment to the Indian Air Force.

I feel it is important to place our jingoism in context ...

I would like to assert that ALL crashes are an embarrassment for the Indian Air Force ... because they are accountable for the lives of their pilots, the lives of others and indeed the lives of those killed on the ground ... but mainly because they consider themselves a professional and accountable force.

This is precisely what the Air Chief conveyed to a few of us who he met to discuss the details of this Jaguar crash. It is this new spirit of transparency and openness which is something entirely new in the Indian Air Force and something which I believe is laudable.

Air Chief Marshal Krishnaswamy and indeed the top brass of the IAF are not defensive about air crashes ... They are honest and straightforward about the issue of crashes. The Indian Air Force deeply regrets the loss of life on the ground and has gone out of its way to try and help the affected families on the ground.

Returning to what I reported (and I regret that the internet copy was not entirely accurate)... the thrust of the reports ... the story, telephone and live reports ... was on how the Jaguar crash cannot be equated with MiG-21 crashes and how the safety record of the aircraft is very different from that of the MiG-21 because they are two very different aircraft.

Once again ... it is a deep embarrassment to all people concerned that the IAF has high crash rates ... For the few of us deeply interested in aviation ... I personally believe it is crucial to accept that there is a very serious problem and look at ways in which the IAF is dealing with the problem and how there are issues beyond what the Air Force can handle ...

More later

ASPuar · Post by **ASPuar** » 21 Nov 2002 10:49

Isnt Praveen Sawhney a former Artillery officer?

What is his main offense? Why is everyone so riled up about this chap? As far as I can see from this thread all this moaning and whining about his views is of no use, and is primarily beinng performed by people who desire to show their prowess at putting others down.

Ironically enough, most of the brouhaha is about how he is whining, and worrying about the sky is falling etc, when certain individuals posting on this thread have set up such a wail about his article, and indulged in such groaning and moaning about it that one is tempted to think that the undead themselves were preparing to arise.

What is the purpose to all this b**ching and moaning about one miserable article? Does it gain one membership into some exalted club of intellectuals? Does it reveal one to be an expert on the subject on which he speaks?

To those who strut around on this board, excessively proud of their 'achievements' in the field of military 'knowledge', I daresay I am being presumptous in saying this, but you are (for the most part) all hobbyists and enthusiasts. try not to let yourselves turn into armchair generals, and potter around congratulating yourself on how much you know. The armed forces are, after all, for most of us a hobby, something we follow with interest and for many a passion. Lets not
get ourselves too riled up.

Im sorry that I seem like Im preaching. Feel free to delete this post whenever its usefulness is outlived. As far as I am concerned, this is a protest against the coterie of individuals on this board who make it a point to argue their opinions by ridiculing and deprecating those of others.

JCage · Post by **JCage** » 21 Nov 2002 13:31

Vishnu,

This is the *exact* text from your article:

The loss of yet another aircraft and indeed the loss of innocent
lives on the ground is another embarrassment for the Indian Air
Force which has a reputation of having some of the highest crash
rates in the world.

High crash rates with relation to whom?And under what conditions?
If you use the crashes/10,000 flying hrs norm:

a)The IAF crash rate or rather attrition rate is *below* that of the PAF.The PAF is at 2 per/10,000 hrs as admitted by the ACM,Mushaf Mir this year.

The IAF ones have never touched the mark.In fact attrition has "swung" between 0.45(postulated)to o.83 per 10,000 flying hours.So wheres the issue of comparison?

Read this article for further information/statistics:
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/MONITOR/ISSUE2-4/rupak.html

If you wish,ACM Mirs article can also be dug wrt his admission of 2/10000 hrs.

b)The PLAAF attrition is never quantified.But its agreed that flying hours remain low and apart from the elite Su and some J7/8 squadrons,training has a long way to go.

c)Comparing IAF attrition to any other "western" AF's is plain bonkers.

The USAF flying hours are huge because of the amounts they fly in relation to getting "free airspace" and having various conditions wherein their birds remain in the air much longer,till crowded airspace corridors have "windows" for them.Sortie wise and experience gained,the IAF compares favourably with any of their training methodologies.This apart from the fact they operate no aircraft in our timeframe -F16'S,F15's.All these a/c come with LRU's and BITE.Easing maintenance and reducing downtime.

If that werent enough,when was the last time you heard of any USAF single seat strike a/c skimming at 100-200 feet,calculating ordinance delivery and strike routes?They have moved to the 10,000-15,000 ft level and function as bomb trucks,moreorless with JDAM's and extensive numbers of similar PGM's.

The IAF remains wedded ,in part,to the low level strike envelope.Which other AF in the world does this,day in and day out,pray?

Does the USAF fly strike sorties at low levels at Kargilesque heights?Or MIg27's in the fog filled valleys of the NE?

So wheres the logic and any reason in comparing apples to oranges?

The Jaguar Crash rates of the RAF have also been posted above.Are they noticeably *lesser* than that of the IAF??Do tell.

The IAF is flying hours exceeding NATO flying hours of some nations and in harder mission profiles and climes.Yes."Exceeding".Nato flying hours are generically referred to as the 180 hr benchmark.IAF pilots routinely do more than that.

So wheres the "reputation" of having the highest crash rates in the world?"

That reputation,if any, is based on a plain misreading of facts and plain bunkum.

Serves us well,to keep propogating that myth?

You may argue that your "internet edition" didnt come out well.Fine.
But as it *has* come out,its plain bad and sensational reportage.

The title for example:

Jaguar crash embarrasses IAF, Fernandes calls meet

We never would have guessed that an a/c crash "embarasses" the IAF and the embarassment causes a meet by Shri Fernandes.

In fact we assumed that a loss of an a/c and the loss of lives that do occur do more than "embarass" the AIr Force.They bring tragedy to service and civvie families and reduce force levels by attrition.
Perhaps we were wrong.

Thanks for telling the "jingos" about the Gift box in the rear seat story again (pray what exactly *is* its relevance to the present situation,before even the IAF completes its report on Rehani's incident?So that the average Joe can say "huh" -might have been this...the Jags dont have engine problems the pilot must have screwed up.Because thats what the entire passage reads like.).The context in which it is placed again reinforcing a stereotype of pilot neglect .

Everyone knows the seriousness of attrition.There are members on this board with serving relatives in the forces who face the prospect of being "embarassed".What we dont need,is an article that,as its been published focuses on "embarassment" rather than address the issue at hand.

If you say:Once again ... it is a deep embarrassment to all people concerned that the IAF has high crash rates ... For the few of us deeply interested in aviation ... I personally believe it is crucial to accept that there is a very serious problem and look at ways in which the IAF is dealing with the problem and how there are issues beyond what the Air Force can handle

May i ask where did your reportage mention *any* of these issues?(ie bird strikes,operational hazards,climes,mission profiles,a/c types in service and type of misisons flown?)

Your belief is fine and all of us share that belief,but a misleading title and incorrect assumptions are hardly nuanced.

Regards,
Nitin

JCage · Post by **JCage** » 21 Nov 2002 13:37

Puar,

First which Sawhney are you talking about?From what i know this is the Frontline chap.Read his articles in IDR before being too concerned.He writes worse than this about the army and the artillery.

:p

Or is it the artillery chap?

Either way,what he wrote was wrong.Period.If you wish to do some good,then write to him wrt what was wrong.Be polite,big deal.Perhaps he may change his opinion and the incessant barrage of wrong facts may cease.
That might help more than b1tching or moaning,wouldnt it?

Regards,
Nitin

Jagan · Post by **Jagan** » 21 Nov 2002 13:50

"The IAF ones have never touched the mark.In fact attrition has "swung" between 0.45(postulated)to 0.83 per 10,000 flying hours.So wheres the issue of comparison?"

Nitin,

There is something wrong with the calculations done at our end. When i say 'our' it is at BR's end.

To an extent - We have not released our Attrition figures after the 1998 CAG Report. Correct me If I am wrong if there is another report that has come our way.

Rupak's article was done at a time when we did not have complete access to the CAG Report - when it was assumed that Fighter hours are in the tune of 150000 Hours per year. To an extent the figures might reflect Fighter and Trainer hours - but using that to calculate fighter attrition brings up the wrong figures. It was also assumed that the number of fighter losses in 97 was much less than it actually was.

The confusion was cleared with the publication of the CAG report on the net which gives an yearly break up of Fighter accidents and Transport accidents. Thus enabling us to calculate the fighter hours. Which could vary from 31 to 35% of the total hours flown. Not 50% as we originally believed in.

We now know that the Fighter hours averaged around 83000 (75000 to 95000) hours during the period of the report . The report itself mentions that the IAF Fighter attrition came down from 3.53 per 10K hours to 1.89 per 10K hours.

The Overall attrition came down from 1.52 to 0.89 - But last set of figures doesn't give you the true picture because a massive amount of hours at last count nearly 150,000 hours are by Transports, Helicopters and Training Institutions.

The five year average for fighter attrition comes approx to 2.62 - high enough to be embarrasing. The number of fighter hours put in by the IAF might have increased since 1998. But I think the increase in the accidents would mean the attriton rate would not have fallen by hugh numbers from the last recorded one of 1.89 in 1998

The reason that i am making this post is that i notice that the basis for most discussions on attrition seem to come from the figures on BR - Since some of the figures are in error ,i feel that there is a need to set things straight and point out that these are wrong and should not be quoted .

ASPuar · Post by **ASPuar** » 21 Nov 2002 14:19

Nitin,
My point was more to the effect that rather than grumble and complain about him, which doesnt do much good, why give him any credence at all? Just just forget it. Sure, he may write tripe. Doesnt mean anyone has to delve very deeply into it.
Something may smell really bad, but thats no reason to proceed to keep smelling it eh?

VKumar · Post by **VKumar** » 21 Nov 2002 14:19

Just because Vishnu som may be reading this....

Well, imho, all english media have been purchased by anti-Indian interests.Whatever the news, they will spin it such as to make India look awful. But terrorists are fine by them (militants, rebels). For e.g. just hear the coverage on STAR NEWS (a day ago they reported on PWG setting off a mine blast under a passenger bus, and instead of condemning it the girl who was reading the news said apologetically 'it was set off by mistake'!

Hear SAHARA News anytime, or Aaj Tak, they are no less anti-India.

Sure, there are rogues in every country/organization, but to infer that ALL Indians are incompetent, dishonest, anti-christian/muslim/dalit, only points to a conspiracy by the media.

Ever seen the nightly capsule on Star News about the worst things happening? OK, its important to cover those but what about once a while highlighting achievements too, even if only for encouragement?

Or, just experience the terrific change for the WORSE in reporting by Rajdeep Sardesai, Bharka Dutt and their colleagues, after the Kargil war.

And which Channel has so far ever contrasted PRC's stand on labour issues, with that of their dogs in India?

So long as Mir Jaffers are around, we don't need
TSP/PRC.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 21 Nov 2002 14:43

Excuse me for splitting hairs - but I have a point to make:

Embarrassment means that you feel shame because someone is watching you. Would anyone use the word "sharam" or "Lajja" with respect to air crashes?. There is a "Log kya kahenge" factor in the act of embarrassment.

It is absolutely stupid and wrong to be "embarrassed" about an air crashes or attrition rate - because embarrassment necessarily means that you would not be bothered if nobody else knew.

We are not embarrassed. We are CONCERNED. There is a thread started by ramana about war writing in India and we talk a lot about the DDM. Part of the problem is that we use english in a fuzzy manner in which words are interchanged. Vishnu Som has used "Indian english" and by speaking of "embarrassment"

Sorry to digress.

ehsmang · Post by **ehsmang** » 21 Nov 2002 14:55

*** off topic ***

JCage · Post by **JCage** » 21 Nov 2002 15:58

Jagan,

Mushaf Mir,iirc,didnt mention Fighter attrition per se too.He said record was something like 2/10,000.So if the overall rate is compared,we would still be on par or below PAF rates.
Also i believe yes,fighter hours *have* increased since 1998.I have been told Flight Safety mentioned the exact increase or another issue of the same.Could you lay hands on one or confirm the same?

Also,my point is not just wrt crash rates but again that blanket statement,one of the "highest crash rates" and the remaining egregious stuff in the article, completely misses the following points.

IF :
1.The IAF continues to use the MiG21 variants ie Bis left-
right and centre for Air Defense and Strike.Bis i believe also for tank plinking.

2.We continue to stress on airframe hours in lieu of sims ,for low level strike missions.We continue to use Jaguars and MiG27's in low level high speed missions,both for strike and recee.

3.We operate in the most hostile climes with the above mission profiles.

4.We continue to stress on all the above so that combat readiness and pilot proficiency isnt impacted.

5.AJT (lack) makes the learning curve steep.MOFTU using UM's left,right and centre.

Then "high crash rates" are there to stay.Period.You can reduce them by a factor but not eliminate that "high quotient" unless you invest a heck of a lot.

IE:
-----
Solutions to be implemented for solving the above:

1.Kick out all moderately old airframes.

2.Stop all tactics which stress on pilot skill and place undue demands on airframe/powerplant.

3.Buy Gadzillion,all weather PGM's and keep reinvesting.

4.Replace phased out A/C with "modern" LRU based,combat a/c.

5.Induct Sims in huge numbers

6.Clear all hutments,abattoirs and bird strike generating hazards.

7.Make sure that all spares supplies are uninterrupted,come with a "100% warranty,will be taken back" label from the CIS or wherever.

8.Get an AJT.

If we cant do the above:

Solution2:

1.Kick out all moderately old airframes.

2.Stop all tactics which stress on pilot skill and place undue demands on airframe/powerplant.

3.Stress flight safety over combat proficiency.

4.Get an AJT.(But it wont affect anything much in this case)

4.Lose the air war ; fail the objectives.

5.

Regards,
Nitin

Manne · Post by **Manne** » 21 Nov 2002 16:24

Vishnu Som,

Shiv and Nitin have raised some very valid points there.

*** off topic ****

Jagan · Post by **Jagan** » 21 Nov 2002 16:24

Nitin,

There is no contention on the IAF mission profiles and the resultant rate of attrition. Nor am i defending the news reports that have come on this issue.

The only contention is that I dont know anyone who can actually put a number on the attrition rate of the IAF fighters in the recent years. The last figures we have are as old as five years. So we might want to be careful when quoting numbers and sources. This is absolutely necessary as we want ourselves to be seen as a source of reliable information.

I have read the article about Mushaf Mir's statement about the 2 per 10K hours. Since so few PAF accidents are recorded, I am tempted to think that they fly far less than the hours that is generally mentioned. Maybe 30000 Hrs

?

Where did that PAF figure of 70000 Hrs come from anyway? I am very skeptical about that figure too. Is probably is for total hours - the fighter hours must be much much less.

I have been told Flight Safety mentioned the exact increase or another issue of the same.Could you lay hands on one or confirm the same?

not the issues that i have read from time to time, maybe i missed it. If anyone can give the month and year, I can arrange for that issue to be procured and we can do a study. I would be most interested in looking at them and trying to calculate attriton rates. So that we have something concrete to quote about.

ASPaur

The issue is not about what Praveen Sawhney wrote and why we being bothered about it.

Take the example of MMAlam - frankly - we dont need to bother about what the pakistanis on the web think about it. We are bothered about what other indians think about it. Hence probably we should be worried not about what praveen sahwney thinks, but what readers reading pravin sahwney's article are going to think.

Sooner or later many ill informed indians are going to read it and come on BRF (or in real life) and start worrying unnecessarily. you are right in a way that our feelings have to be channelised into somethign productive, like writing a counter article for the same paper - but that is left for further debate

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 21 Nov 2002 18:04

I have the March 2001 issue of Flight Safety...anybody want me to type the stuff for you? It has some stuff from Op Pawan, MiG-21, cheetah articles, a letter from Wingco KS...is this mag classified?

Harry · Post by **Harry** » 21 Nov 2002 18:36

I already told you where it came from and it's not likely that a more reliable source on the PAF is available at the moment.

BTW That's certainly not fighter hours alone but the total.

However,I can understand why that seems exaggerated because according to Ayaz ahmed khan's figures for attrition rate/10000 hrs and from the total no. of admitted crashes,the bulk flying hrs come to,

1991 - 10,582 hrs
1992 - 27,027 hrs
1993 - 21,276 hrs
1994 - 56,910 hrs
1995 - 37,878 hrs
1996 - 40,000 hrs
1997 - 35,714 hrs

Clearly,the PAF is either hiding it's actual crash quantity or has really pathetic flying hrs.

Comiing to the IAF,who said that the attrition rate of the IAF is not a concern or a disturbing figure?It is.Especially since,a high % of crashes are attributed to avoidable factors that came into the spotlight more than a decade ago.

The thing is this - the PAF's attrition is worse,yet at the same time,have people and the media using the IAF's attrition to show how crap the IAF is,exaggerating actual figures,resorting to outright lies and relating that to how cool the PAF is and then going on to describe everything from their amazing(BVR less,ACMI less..) training to their F-15,F-117,B-2 sorties,martial prowess and what not?

PS Jagan,the CAG figures stop at 1997.ex-ACM Satish Kumar Sareen stated that there was 27% increase in flying time of fighters alone from that period on.That could explain the huge jump from 275,505 hrs to 306,190 hrs and 311,412 hrs 1998-1999.

Vishnu Som,it would be nice if you cover a story on the same.The media seems to think that 221 Mig-21s alone have crashed in 7-10 years!The correct figures are here:

http://www.warbirdsofindia.com/Crashes

If pakistan's media were given the same freedom as in India or were equivalent in any way,the PAF would be considered a swear word.

I suppose most know that the German luftwaffe lost 270 F-104s with over 110 fatalities in a service period much shorter than the Mig-21's?(Majority were attributed to human error).Canada lost over 50% of it's 200 CF-104s in accidents.But were/are they projected as totally useless and crappy airforces?

Phil · Post by **Phil** » 21 Nov 2002 19:20

Admin Note:Feroze, Ad Hominem attacks are unwarranted on the forum. If you have any evidence and sources - please back it up what ever you say with them.

Peeyoosh · Post by **Peeyoosh** » 21 Nov 2002 19:25

Feroze

What is incoherent and so wrong in what Vishnu wrote? Not sure using the PAF's attrition rate to compare gets us anywhere.

We have an unacceptable crash rate in the fighter squadrons - with the Mig 21s it is over 3/10,000 hours. Given that an IAF pilot flies around 3000+ hours in his career - a pilot flying Mig21s will almost certainly see one crash - now to my mind gthat is embarassing, shocking and unacceptable. And to hell with the PAF's attrition rate.

Peeyoosh