Trisonics operate MiG-25R or MiG-25RB?

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Badar
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Trisonics operate MiG-25R or MiG-25RB?

Post by Badar »

Hi,<P>1. Do the chaps at Trisonics operate MiG-25R or MiG-25RBs? <BR>2. Specifically do they have the "Peleng" Hi-alt precision-attack nav system?<P>I was browsing thru Yefin Gordans, "MiG-25 Foxbat, MiG-31 Foxhound, Russia's defensive front line" at the local book store and it said that the Indian MiG-25s were a variant of the MiG-25RBs. Made me wonder. About the obvious implications.<BR>
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Re: Trisonics operate MiG-25R or MiG-25RB?

Post by VivekT »

Another question,<P>Do IAF MIG-25s have provision to carry SLARs?<P>Badar, what are the (dis/)advantages of the Peneng navigation system.
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Re: Trisonics operate MiG-25R or MiG-25RB?

Post by Vikram Rathore »

I think India has the R version..which has SLAR. A link to some info on the RB. The dope on its bombing system is <P>`In this version bombing capability was added. It's automatic bombing system is<BR>capable of making all-weather, day and night precision attacks at supersonic speeds from heights above 65 000 ft<BR>against targets whose geographic coordinates are known'<BR> <A HREF="http://aeroweb.lucia.it/~junap95/support/mig25.htm" TARGET=_blank>http://aeroweb.lucia.it/~junap95/support/mig25.htm</A>
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Re: Trisonics operate MiG-25R or MiG-25RB?

Post by Badar »

Hi,<P>Thomas, the Peneng nav attack system gives the MiG-25 the capability to attack fixed targets (whose co-ordinates are known at take-off) with "pin-point" accuracy while flying at very high altitude at very high speeds.<P>In tests, the MiG-25s successfully attacked targets with HE bombs while flying at a speed of 2500 kmph from an altitude of 20 km.<BR>
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Re: Trisonics operate MiG-25R or MiG-25RB?

Post by Badar »

Hi,<P>Thomas, vikram, the Indian MiG-25's *do* have a SLAR.<P>Folks, From the horses mouth - India operates MiG-25RBT's. Check out <a href="http://armedforces.nic.in/strength1.htm#Aircraft Types Operated by the Indian Air Force (1932-1991)">Aircraft types</a> at the official IAF site.<P>RB subvariants are RBK, RBS, RBV, and RBT. Prizes to all those who can say what the designations stand for. <P>Salman, Do I get a prize for pointers to information? <P>Gordons book is quite authoratative and lists in detail all the variants, including all the recco/strike sub-variants. Sorry, I did not pay much attention to what they stand for. The WAPJ Volume 34 also goes over the 25 variants in detail.<P>Good, from Salman's link it becomes quite obvious we have an unstoppable nuclear bomber. Image<BR>
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Re: Trisonics operate MiG-25R or MiG-25RB?

Post by Badar »

Hi,<P>Salman, <P>R is for recco, B for bomber in RB.<P>T in RBT is for Tangazh ELINT<BR>V in RBV is for Virazh SLAR<BR>K in RBK is for Kub SLAR<BR>S in RBS is for Sabla SLAR<BR>Sh in RBSh is for Shompol SLAR<P>BTW there is also the RBF variant, which is "generally to RBK standard, but with Shar elint instead of the Kub and with small square dielectric panels in place of camera windows".<P>MY PRIZE! MY PRIZE! I WANT MY PRIZE! Image<P>PS : I didn't look at WAPJ Image<BR><p>[This message has been edited by Badar (edited 17-08-1999).]
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Re: Trisonics operate MiG-25R or MiG-25RB?

Post by Badar »

Hi,<P>Salman, well to be frank I did cheat a little (there is the good old Janes that you forgot to mention). Uh, pious, pious me, for I cannot tell a lie Image<P>So I don't really deserve the first prize. But how about a consolation prize? Maybe a little priority on one topic of your choice<BR>(i) BEL ajanta<BR>(ii) plasma stealth <BR>(iii) depth charges on Delhi<BR>
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Re: Trisonics operate MiG-25R or MiG-25RB?

Post by swarup »

What is the CEP of the Peneng nav system<BR>for carrying out a bombing run with full<BR>3000 kg of bombs at 65,000ft?
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Re: Trisonics operate MiG-25R or MiG-25RB?

Post by Vikram Rathore »

wow...this sounds really awesome...it would give us a nuclear delivery system neither the Pukis nor the Chinese can hope to intercept.<P>Does anyone know if India is actually using/thinking of using the Foxbats as nuke delivery platforms...<P>If I were the Pukis (and I thank the lord every day that I'm not), I would be worried s***less...
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Re: Trisonics operate MiG-25R or MiG-25RB?

Post by Sukumar »

The MiG-25 has a never exceed red line at Mach 2.8 when flying clean (no external stores). With AAMs under its wings the drag drops the speed down to mess than Mach 2.5. With stores like bombs, the speeds would be much lower than Mach 2, like a regular fighter.<P>All these speeds are at the max allowed throttle. The MiG-25's Turmansky engines were notorious for their short life (200 hours or less on average).<P>So the MiG-25 would not make a very good bomber (for which it was not designed anyway). It is ideal for the hi-speed recon role.<P>The MiG-31 which evolved from the 25 was designed to be a supersonic interceptor with a max speed of about Mach 2.3-2.5, a very powerful radar and look down-shoot down capabilities. It was to counter B-52, B-1, F-111 type threats.<P>You want to hit somebody far away, with little reaction time and a lot of ooomph you need a missile.
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Re: Trisonics operate MiG-25R or MiG-25RB?

Post by rama »

Doesn't the Mig-25 have a higher ceiling than most others? ISTR that it can fly at 70,000 ft+ compared to the 50,000-60,000 ft ceiling of other fighters, and with an enemy without long range AAM's that alone gives it excellent protection even if it is flying sub-Mach 2. So, as far as PAF is considered, it is pretty much uninterceptable, either as a bomber or as a recon bird. Interestingly, in the mid-70's - it was precisely to intercept Syrian(?) Mig-25 overflights over Iran - that the Shah was offered either the F-14 or the F-15. He chose the former,of course.<P>Why would IAF use the Mig-25 as a bomber, as opposed to the Su-30MK - which outperforms it in every way except ceiling, I wouldn't know.
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Re: Trisonics operate MiG-25R or MiG-25RB?

Post by Badar »

Hi,<P><I>Syrian(?) Mig-25 overflights over Iran</I><P>rama, Russian overflights.<P>Why would IAF use the Mig-25 as a bomber, as opposed to the Su-30MK<P>Because "it is pretty much uninterceptable". Plus it has a sophisticated and accurate attack system that allows the pilot to bomb accurately from a safe height.<p>[This message has been edited by Badar (edited 17-08-1999).]
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Re: Trisonics operate MiG-25R or MiG-25RB?

Post by Sukumar »

Rama, the Syrians and Iranians are friends against their common enemy Iraq. The Shah did buy F-14s. You are probably thinking of Soviet piloted MiG-25s in Egyptian colors that regularly overflew Israel. The Israelis could do nothing about it with their F-4s.<P>The IAF would not use the 25 as a bomber for the reasons I have pointed out above. You are right. There are more capable aircraft for that role such as the Su-30, Mirage 2000, MiG-27 and Jaguar.
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Re: Trisonics operate MiG-25R or MiG-25RB?

Post by Badar »

Hi,<P><I>You are probably thinking of Soviet piloted MiG-25s in Egyptian colors that regularly overflew Israel</I>.<P>Sukumar, Nope. Soviet MiG-25s, in soviet marking, with soviet pilots regularly overflew Iran. The Shah was mildly worried about this. The Americans on the other habd were scared ****less. They feared a russian take over of Iran to give FSU direct access to the ME. It turned out later, the Russian were more interested in Afghanistan.<P><I>The MiG-25 has a never exceed red line at Mach 2.8 when flying clean (no external stores)</I><P>The MiG-25 can easily (and has many times) hit Mach 3.2 at altitude. The 2.83 redline is for engine preservation, not an aerodynamic limit.<P><I>With AAMs under its wings the drag drops the speed down to mess than Mach 2.5</I><BR>Not quite true. As Salman said "[1] Extended cruise with with full external load (6 X 500kg, 2 fuselage, 4 underwing) at 2.35M! Dash to 2.83M." <P>BTW, later variants of the RBs had the max payload limit raised to 5 tons. An IAF MiG-25 in a nuclear strike role would have to carry a single 1000 kg bomb.<P><I>The MiG-25's Turmansky engines were notorious for their short life (200 hours or less on average)</I>.<BR>Then how come it makes a good recon bird?<P><I>So the MiG-25 would not make a very good bomber (for which it was not designed anyway)</I><BR>The MiG-25RB was redesigned as a bomber. It had slightly changes in airframe and extensivly reworked avionics.<BR><p>[This message has been edited by Badar (edited 17-08-1999).]
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Re: Trisonics operate MiG-25R or MiG-25RB?

Post by Sukumar »

Badar, what I said about Soviet piloted MiG-25s overflying Israel before, during and after the Yom Kippur war is a fact you may not be aware of. It is possible that they may have flown over Iran too. There was no direct connection to the Shah getting F-14s though. The Shah wanted the latest US toys with his oil money and they were willing to let him have it.<P>The 25 has a never exceed red line at mach 2.8 because the engines burn out at sustained speeds above it. It is a well known fact that the 25 can approach Mach 3. The short life of the Turmanskys leads to the engines being replaced (not overhauled) every 200 hours of flight time. With good working engines the 25 is a great spy plane.<P>It is a recorded fact that the 25's speed drops to below ~mach 2.5 with about 4 AAMs under its wings.<P>My point was that the IAF would not want to use any of the limited 10 25s it has as a bomber when it has more capable aircraft such as the Su-30, Jaguar, Mirage 2000 and MiG-27.<P>The MiG-25 is a great plane very well suited for the hi speed recon role.<P>Here are some snippets on the MiG-25 that I found on the web:<P>"The MiG-25 engines<BR> were massive. They were originally designed for a large high speed cruise missle, but were incorperated into<BR> the MiG-25 due to the B-70 program. The engines were not designed to constantly handle RPM changes<BR> because of the original design. What would happen is that the engines would exceed redline if the throttle was<BR> mishandled- They would go from (eg)60% RPM to 120%+RPM. In the process, they would destroy<BR> themselves, forcing the pilot to recover on one engine, glide, or eject. "<P>"The MiG-25 that was clocked at Mach 3.2 by the Israelis achieved this speed while running from an<BR> intercepting F-4 (which can barely manage Mach 2 on a good day--before running out of fuel). Upon landing,<BR> both engines in the MiG had to be replaced.<P> <B>Victor Belenko, the Foxbat pilot who defected in 1976, stated that the top speed of the MiG-25 was Mach<BR> 2.8, but flight above Mach 2.6 was difficult because of a tendency of the engines to overspeed. Victor related<BR> that MiG-25 pilots were in fact restricted to flying below Mach 2.5 except with special permission</B>."<P><BR>"My God! Look what this thing is made of! Why, the dumb *******s don't have transistors; they're still<BR> using vacuum tubes! These engines are monsters! Maybe the Sovs have a separate refinery for each<BR> plane! Jesus! See these rivet heads sticking out, and look at that welding! They did it by hand! Hell, the<BR> pilot can't see a thing unless it's practically in front of him! This contraption isn't an airplane; it's a rocket!<BR> Hey, see what they've done here! How clever! They were able to use aluminum! Why didn't we ever think<BR> of that? How ingenious! It's brilliant!<BR> MiG Pilot : The Final Escape of Lieutenant Belenko"<P><A HREF="http://www.topedge.com/panels/aircraft/ ... 25MIK.html" target=external>MiG-25 Link 1</A><P><BR>
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Re: Trisonics operate MiG-25R or MiG-25RB?

Post by Badar »

Hi,<P>Sukumar, I am not denying that MiG-25 overflights took place over Israel. They did. It is a recorded fact.<P>What I am saying is that Iran bought the Phonenix equipped Tomcats solely to deter soviet overflights. As a matter of fact, soviet union ceased airspace violations once the Iranian Tomcats became operational.<P>I agree with that sustained Mach 3.0 flight is bad for the MiG-25 engines. An MiG-25 variant was tracked clocking mach 3.2 for a sustained time period by NATO radars (a demo "arranged" by the soviets). This incident made NATO go ape and resulted in the myth of the Foxbat.<P>The supposed US evaluation of the MiG-25 "My God! Look what..." is apocryphal. It has been debunked many times at rec.aviation.military.<BR>
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Re: Trisonics operate MiG-25R or MiG-25RB?

Post by Philip »

Fascinating thought of using th MIG-25 as a nuclear bomber.I guess that the missile armed MIG-25 would be a better option if we could cobble together a suitable missile.It depends I suppose upon the warhead size.<P>Now for the tidbit about the Delhi's DC rails.Aren't there are two rails atop the hangar for Sea Kings next to the PK-2 chaff/decoy dispensers?They do look to me like DC rails,at least in some photos.I do wonder how the charges are handled there though.There are no other obvious areas that one can see,unless the vacant areas/platforms on either beam near the stacks are to be used.The stern is entirely taken up by the flight deck for the Sea Kings.Shall ckeck this out.
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Re: Trisonics operate MiG-25R or MiG-25RB?

Post by rama »

Don't knock vacuum tubes and other 'obsolete' electronics too hard. Should we get struck by EMP (electromagnetic pulse) or other high radiation weapons, the Mig21 (minus the 21-93 upgrades), the Mig23 and the Mig25 will be the only flyable components of the IAF...<P>Back to Iran's acquisition of the F-14's. I have read an article on how this came to pass. The Mig-25 overflights definitely were a bigger reason than the Shah's ego. The Tomcats Iran got were the real deal, with Phoenix'es and everything - nobody else got them. Ego-pandering sales have been usually watered down by the US.
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Re: Trisonics operate MiG-25R or MiG-25RB?

Post by Vikram Rathore »

Nobody knock the big guy too much...the Foxbat's been a sentimental favorite of mine for years....I believe it never got a fair chance to show its stuff. I mean, piloted by Syrians, it would have been fair game for a mildly retarded 12 year old in a Sopwith Camel...in the Gulf War, it did get some respect, but once again, Iraqi pilots and tactics are not exactly world class, plus they were up against huge odds....<P>Anyway, a snippet from a Russian Aviation site <A HREF="http://aeroweb.lucia.it/~agretch/RAFAQ/MiG-25.html" TARGET=_blank>http://aeroweb.lucia.it/~agretch/RAFAQ/MiG-25.html</A> <P>`Gulf War Experience -<P> Did you know that a MiG-25PD recorded the only Iraqi air-to-air kill of the Gulf<BR> War? It dropped an F-18C on the first night of the war--then went on to fire another<BR> missile at an A-6 and buzz an A-7, all while avoiding escorting F-14s and F-15s.<P> An isolated incident? How about the single Iraqi Foxbat-E that eluded eight sweeping<BR> F-15s then tangled with two EF-111As, firing three missiles at the Ravens and chasing<BR> them off station. Unfortunately, the Ravens were supporting an F-15E strike, and the<BR> EF-111's retreat led to the loss of one of the Strike Eagles to a SAM. Oh BTW, the<BR> Foxbat easily avoided interception and returned safely to base.<P> There's more. When F-15 pilots were fighting for the chance to fly sweeps east of<BR> Baghdad late in the war, itching for a chance to get a shot at an Iraqi running for Iran,<BR> they weren't expecting the fight that a pair of Foxbats put up. Two Foxbats approached<BR> a pair of F-15s, fired missiles before the Eagles could get off shots (the missiles were<BR> evaded by the Eagles), then outran those two Eagles, four Sparrows and two<BR> Sidewinders fired back at them. Two more Eagles maneuvered to cut the Foxbat's off<BR> from their base (four more Eagles tried, but were unable to effect an intercept), and four<BR> more Sparrows were expended in vain trying to drop the Foxbats.<P> The Iraqis had a total of twelve MiG-25PDs at the beginning of the war, of which maybe<BR> half were operational at any given time. Imagine what trouble they would have caused if<BR> there had been more. The Foxbats, when well flown, proved capable of engaging allied<BR> fighters and avoiding them at will. Only the limitations of their weapons proved a<BR> problem.'<BR>
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