Indian Army's Light Machine Guns

[Guest]

The LMG being used by the Indian Army seems to be of an outdated design derived from the Bren. The INSAS LMG does not appear to have a magazine fed capability. Is the army contemplating replacing this? <BR>What is the South African anti-material in service with the Army?<p>[This message has been edited by ananth (edited 21-10-1999).]

[shiv]

You may be wrong on both counts Ananth<BR>There is an article on the INSAS series in the B-R monitor, and a long discussion archives under the military/tech archives.<P>You will get a lot more info from there - but do state your reasons for making this comparison between the "outdated" (how and why?) Bren and the INSAS<P><BR>Specifications (LMG): <BR> Cartridge: as for AR<BR> Operation: as for AR (no 3-round burst)<BR> Locking: as for AR<BR> Feed: 30-round plastic box magazine<BR> Weight: fixed butt, empty, 6.23kg, loaded 6.73kg; folding butt, empty, 5.87kg, loaded 6.37kg<BR> Length: fixed butt, 1.05m; butt folded, 890mm; butt extended, 1.025m<BR> Barrel: standard, 535mm; short, 500mm<BR> Rifling: 4 grooves, rh, 1 turn in 200mm<BR> Sights: as for AR (200-1000m instead of 200-400m)<BR> Sight radius: 475mm<BR> Muzzle velocity: 925m/s (std barrel), 915m/s (short barrel)<BR> Muzzle energy: 1780J (std barrel), 1740J (short barel)<BR> Recoil energy: 2.75J (std barrel), 2.85J (short barrel)<BR> Rate of fire: as for AR<BR> Max effective range: 700m (std barrel), 600m (short barrel)

[Guest]

shiv,<BR>Both the Bren and the INSAS lack a chain fed ability. The SAW (Squad Automatic Weapon) used by the US Army can be both magazine and Belt fed. The INSAS series uses the old AK-74 receiver which is essentially the 5.45mm adaptation of the AK-47 receiver. They can use the AK-107/108 receiver which is an improvement over the AK-series.<BR>The new Abakan is very different and needs a new production line and so cannot be produced in India. But since We are already manufacturing a version the AK reciever we can go in for the AK-107 receiver which is the only upgrade for the Kalshnikov in 50 years( The rest of the models were different in calibre but were the same otherwise).<BR>Check out this link <A HREF="http://club.guns.ru/eng/ak107.html" TARGET=_blank>http://club.guns.ru/eng/ak107.html</A> <P>and this <A HREF="http://www.remtek.com/arms/fn/minimi/index.htm" TARGET=_blank>http://www.remtek.com/arms/fn/minimi/index.htm</A> <P>rakesh, <BR>I will keep that in mind the next time I post.<BR>

[neil]

Does the IA have any LMGs that are belt fed???? really improves the fire power and strength if one person in a squad is equipped with a SAW LMG.<BR> <BR> the US M-109 is a good example(is that whayt its called) <P>------------------<BR>jai HIND<BR>jai JAWAN.<P><BR>

[Guest]

I forgot to add that the INSAS does not have a quick barrel change capability and hence is not a true LMG.

[Nishant Berlia]

I was talking to a Capt posted at Army HQ yesterday at a wedding (military). He was telling me that on the whole the INSAS performence have been quite satisfactory. Though there was an initial problem with the line of sight and aiming that has been rectified. Still however nothing to beat the AK-47 and 56 however when it comes to IN and COIN ops.<P>Another interesting thing apparenty during the Kargil war, Pakistanis soldiers were using ammo that after travelling 50 m and entering a human body would explode into peices, thus, making the wound highly serious. There is a term for such ammo but it is escaping me. But, isn't the use of such ammo a violation of the Geneva convention.

[Badar]

Hi,<P>dumdum?

[Riza Zaman]

Dum Dum bullets would definately be a breach of the Geneva Convention,... but there are other bullets that would produce the same effect (and are not banned by the Geneva Convention).<P>One example is (someone mentioned this on the forum) the bullets being used in Chechnya. The tip of the bullets has a small cavity. Upon impact, the cavity makes the bullet rotate wildly and thus creates a larger wound. Someone else today me that these bullets were called caviation rounds, can anyone confirm this ?

[Badar]

Hi,<P>The tip of the bullets has a small cavity.<P>Isnt that the defination of a dumdum bullet? How is it different?

[Mahadev]

Another depravity of the pakis using these hollow points. Just spoiled my sunday for me thinking of the jawans who got shot with them.<P>It has been most upsetting to hear of reports in Kargil of jawans preferring to take a AK56 instead of the INSAS when they could lay their hands on one. As I said earlier, psychologically, most folks would prefer stopping power to intangibles like logistic hampering through casualties (w/ lower powered rounds designed to injure not kill)<P>A prayer: Can the jawans in atleast COIN ops be issued AK56s?<P>LMGs are ok, but in case of hill top to hill top fighting against hidden enemies trying to sneak past, the new auto grenade launchers would be far more valuable to flush out the pigs and then standard auto rifles can take care of them.<P>Regards

[Nishant Berlia]

Yeah I think that it is term. Maybe I am wrong he didn't use any specific one. I also talked to him about teh Ajeya and the Nag. Apparently, the army isn't too impressed with the Ajeya. After the whole makeover infact its weight has only increased by 1 ton. In reality, it is an improvement but the T-90 is far far superior.<P>Another thing he told me was that the Army was impressed by the Nag missile's performence. Especially the 2nd generation one launched from the BMP-2. <B>However, he mentioned that there was some new 3rd generation anti-tank missile just developed he couldn't recall the name. Any ideas?</B><P>Oh! Another thing. Apparently all the Russian MBRLs aren't good. Some of them cannot operate at those heights.

[Shirish]

Badar,<BR>The original DumDum bullets were filled with mercury . They were used to hunt rhinos.

[Badar]

Hi,<P>Shirish, I knew that dumdum's were first manufactured in calcuttah (in dumdum) but didn't know that they were invented for hunting. <P>What I was asking was weather, under the hague convention, arent dumdum's defined as bullets with a hollow nose or soft nose?

[shiv]

Somehow this thread seems to be propagating a possible myth that "chain fed" LMGs are "the best"<P>In the absence of any expert comments on this issue I would question the assumption. <P>What is an LMG? What parameters define an LMG?<P>What sub-types do LMGs fall into?<P>What are the models available in each sub-type?<P>What are the relative advantages and disadvantages of each? And what are their typical uses?<P>If I were an infantryman I would love to carry a six-barrel chain driven rotary cannon - but most infantrymen do not fit into the mould of that character from Doom or something.<P>Anyone with any hard facts?? Anything that make this thread remotely archivable?<p>[This message has been edited by shiv (edited 24-10-1999).]

[Peeyoosh]

AFAIK Dum dums are bullets where the tip is deformed by crimping, makes them rotate on impact causing horrible wounds.<P>Refinements include hollow points which have better accuracy than a dumdum and the worst of the lot - a hollow point, where the cavity is partially filled with mercury. This is probably the worst of the lot, as on impact the mercury (follwoing Newton) continues to travel onwards, striking the tip and causing it to "flower" into petals of metal - really vicious, but very very hard to manufacture and store.<P>Ved<P>On LMGs - I was told that belt fed guns have a bad habbit of jamming as the belt twists, and usually need a barrel cooling mechanism (high cyclic rates of fire, high duration of fire) - ideally a two man team per gun - better configuration for a heavy machine gun?<P>PC

[Kuttan]

Very hard to manufacture? In "Day of the Jackal", the Jackal used hollowpoint bullets with mercury in the tip.

[Riza Zaman]

"Caviation" rounds are not banned... unethical, but not banned as they are technically different from Dum Dum bullets, mainly because Dum Dum bullets rely upon the warhead disintegrating inside the impact zone while cavitation round rotate lopsidedly inside the impact zone.

[VKumar]

There is a BBC serial on the aspect of bullet s (and mines) and the wounds caused by them. The bullets after entering the human body change trajectory as they encounter flesh/muscle/bones & so instead of following a straight line get deflected and cause a wound which is at an angle. The bullets are therefore difficult to find and they cause a mess. There is a case being argued for 'humane' bullets which incapicitate without permanent damage (i.e. do not cripple or kill. The swiss army is supposed to be armed with such bullets. About mines it covers a TSP armyman who says that they 'love' mines because whilst they may not kill they cripple an enemy and thus create a long term liability to the enemy.