Information on the Admiral Gorshkov refit

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Information on the Admiral Gorshkov refit

Postby Avinash » 17 Feb 2001 16:44

The information is taken from a newsletter sent by <A HREF="http://www.weapons-catlog.com" TARGET=_blank>www.weapons-catlog.com</A> <P>Russian Shipyard Invests Own Money in Repairs of Vessel for India<P>ARKHANGELSK, Feb 13, 2001 -- (Military News Agency) The<BR>Sevmashpredpriyatie shipyard has invested RUR 200 million (USD 9.97<BR>million) of its own money in maintenance and repairs of the Admiral<BR>Gorshkov aircraft carrier, a spokesman for the Arkhangelsk region<BR>administration said on Tuesday.<P>The Admiral Gorshkov was towed from Severomorsk, the main base of the<BR>Northern Fleet, to Severodvinsk, home of Sevmashpredpriyatie, in July<BR>1999, the spokesman told the Military News Agency. By that time an<BR>intergovernmental agreement had been achieved to transfer the vessel to<BR>India. A corresponding memorandum was signed in New Delhi in December<BR>1998 by then-prime minister Yevgeny Primakov.<P>The aircraft carrier is the latest of the four Project 1143 vessels. The<BR>Kiev, the Minsk and the Novosibirsk were commissioned by the Soviet Navy<BR>in 1975, 1978 and 1982 respectively while the Admiral Gorshkov (original<BR>name Baku) was added to the Northern Fleet in late 1987. It featured<BR>more up-to-date electronic equipment and 24 Bazalt anti-ship attack<BR>cruise missiles, which is much more than its predecessors.<P>The three earlier aircraft carriers were sold for scrapping abroad in<BR>1990s. The Admiral Gorshkov has not taken to sea since 1992 due to<BR>engine breakdowns. Besides, its YAK-38 Forger vertical take-off and<BR>landing planes have become outdated, and the Navy command did not<BR>attempt at repairing he vessel's landing deck due to financial<BR>difficulties. After the Northern Fleet commissioned the new Admiral<BR>Kuznetsov heavy aircraft carrier, capable of carrying SU-33 Flanker,<BR>SU-25K Frogfoot and MIG-29K Fulcrum planes, the Defense Ministry<BR>abandoned the idea of keeping the Admiral Gorshkov in the Navy<BR>altogether.<P>The fate of the vessel is to be decided this week when Deputy Prime<BR>Minister Ilya Klebanov visits India. Deputy director-general of the<BR>Rosoboronexport arms exporting company Viktor Komardin told the Agency<BR>the signing of the contract will be divided into several stages. For<BR>instance, Russia will have to register the transfer as donation, repair<BR>the vessel and fit it with the equipment chosen by India.<P>Sevmashpredpriyatie has got ready for restoration of the vessel's engine<BR>and modernization of the flight deck in the past 1.5 years , the<BR>spokesman said. Nevertheless, it will take the yard at least for years<BR>to complete the repairs even on condition of stable financing, he<BR>stressed.<P>--------------------------------------------<P>BTW, Does anyone know what is going to happen next for the Vikrant museum. Looking at the Vikrant during the IFR, she seems to have been completely repaired. What comes next?<P>------------------<BR>Y.Avinash

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Re: Information on the Admiral Gorshkov refit

Postby davidn » 17 Feb 2001 18:31

well the russians seem to think that the deal is going to be clinched soon(how many times have we heard that! and for how long!!)<P>but i have a question<BR>why did the IN choose the Mig-29k over the su-30mki???<BR>the su-30mki is a much better aircraft in just about all areas<BR>was it because of financing or is there another reason.<P>also does anyone know if the mig-29k is the naval version of the mig-29SMT or of Mig29A?<BR>what are the avionics, cockpit, huds, weapons etc. like<BR>all ive heard is that it is a navalised version of hte mig-29 but if that is reffering to the mig-29a then that is nothing to be excited over. if it has the same level of technology as the Mig-29SMT however, that wouldnt be so bad.<P>one last question<BR>is it true the IN is buying the gorshkov with the Yakhont missiles and launcher?<P>any info would b much appreciated =)

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Re: Information on the Admiral Gorshkov refit

Postby Saurabh » 17 Feb 2001 20:24

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by davidn:<BR><B>but i have a question<BR>why did the IN choose the Mig-29k over the su-30mki???the su-30mki is a much better aircraft in just about all areas was it because of financing or is there another reason.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>That's easy,<BR>Gorshkov can carry a maximum of 25 MIG-29K fighters [which are the closest to MIG-29SMT if not SMT themselves - certainly way too much superior to A and B]<BR>Su-27/33 is a bigger bird and that means reducing the number of planes below full-squadron level, which is not advisable.<P><P>------------------<BR>Adios<BR>Saurabh

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Re: Information on the Admiral Gorshkov refit

Postby Nandai » 17 Feb 2001 23:10

Well, the fact is that the Gorshkov cannot carry any Su-30s, well, it can carry them, but cant get them into the hangars. The elevators cannot carry the Su-30, they are too heavy.<P>------------------<BR>Nandai<P>Since time began,<BR>the dead alone know peace.<BR>Life is like melting snow.

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Re: Information on the Admiral Gorshkov refit

Postby ASPuar » 18 Feb 2001 03:55

<BR>Incidentally, the planes that the gorshkov would cary, are the SMT-K a naval verion of the SMT. IE all the goodies in an SMT, viz glass cockpit improved HUD, etc and a strengthened undercarriage too!

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Re: Information on the Admiral Gorshkov refit

Postby Div » 18 Feb 2001 12:12

David,<P>Check the Airshow thread; most members were quite impressed with the Mig-29K.

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Re: Information on the Admiral Gorshkov refit

Postby davidn » 18 Feb 2001 16:01

thanks for your answers everyone :-)<P>so the su-30s dont actually fit in the gorshkovs hangar? well thats a shame. the admiral kutznekov must have larger hangers to incorporate the naval flanker<P>but if the mig-29k is a navalised SMT then that sounds great for the future IN<P>hopefully they will also add an AWACS or 2 to the air group in the future to maximise the migs effectiveness against air and sea<P>

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Re: Information on the Admiral Gorshkov refit

Postby Avinash » 18 Feb 2001 17:10

I dont think that even the kutznekov can carry the Su-30's. Maybe the lifts can carry the Su-30's, but the plane is too tall to fit in the hanger. That's why the two seat version on the Su-33, the Su-34(I am not sure of the designation) has a side by side seating.<BR>Regarding the MiG-29K, the original MiG-29k's are navalised MiG-28M's. However, one of the MiG-29K prototypes was used as a MiG-29SMT prototype. I dont know whether that MiG-29SMT still retained it carrier capability, but if it did, then the MiG-29K we will be getting will be the navalised SMT version. According to some newspaper reports, the IN is specifying how it wants its MiG-29K's to be. This includes installing indian made parts among others. In such a case, the MiG-29k we will be getting will be heavily customised for Indian Navy use like the Su-30MKI is customised for IAF use.<P>------------------<BR>Y.Avinash

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Re: Information on the Admiral Gorshkov refit

Postby ks_sachin » 18 Feb 2001 22:09

<A HREF="http://www.milparade.com/1999/34/014.htm" TARGET=_blank>http://www.milparade.com/1999/34/014.htm</A>

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Re: Information on the Admiral Gorshkov refit

Postby Kersi D » 19 Feb 2001 17:44

Do not forget that the a/c will also be used on the ADS. The ADS is much smaller than the Gorshkov. Hence the MiG 29 variant has been chosed over SU 33 - the shipborne version of the SU 30 etc. family. The shipborne version of MiG 29 was displayed and flown at the AERO 2001<P>Regards<BR>Kersi

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Re: Information on the Admiral Gorshkov refit

Postby ks_sachin » 19 Feb 2001 17:52

Is the Mi29K cockpit layout like the SMTs. I ask this because the K was developed much before the SMT. Does it also have the other structural modifications of the SMT or even the M. The RD33 engines which the K has I presume are the reworked engines with an enhanced TBO. IS there a deal which makes us taking the K contingent on the Russians upgrading the existing IAF fleet to M or SMT standards and also at a reduced price or some such.

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Re: Information on the Admiral Gorshkov refit

Postby Philip » 19 Feb 2001 20:07

The MIG-29K to be used on the Gorshkov will be an improved version of the MIG-29K that was earlier used on the Kuznetsov for trials.The aircraft will probably use some similar avionics that are being used on the SU-30MKI,LCA programmes.Whether the IN will want some of the LCA technology developed to be used is an unanswered question.If some composites can be used in the airframe making the aircraft lighter,all the better.More importantly,it should carry all the latest weaponry that the SU-30MKI will carry,especially long range BVR missiles and stand off missiles.In case the IN goes in for Israeli missiles for Sea Harrier upgrades like Python 4,it may want the same to be integrated with the 29K.

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Re: Information on the Admiral Gorshkov refit

Postby NRao » 19 Feb 2001 23:05

<A HREF="http://warplanes.hypermart.net/videosmig29.htm" TARGET=_blank>'Vidoe of MiG-29K takeoff and landing on an AC (4th from bottom)'</A>

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Re: Information on the Admiral Gorshkov refit

Postby ks_sachin » 20 Feb 2001 18:20

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by philip fowler:<BR><B>The MIG-29K to be used on the Gorshkov will be an improved version of the MIG-29K that was earlier used on the Kuznetsov for trials.The aircraft will probably use some similar avionics that are being used on the SU-30MKI,LCA programmes.Whether the IN will want some of the LCA technology developed to be used is an unanswered question.If some composites can be used in the airframe making the aircraft lighter,all the better.More importantly,it should carry all the latest weaponry that the SU-30MKI will carry,especially long range BVR missiles and stand off missiles.In case the IN goes in for Israeli missiles for Sea Harrier upgrades like Python 4,it may want the same to be integrated with the 29K.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Any more details on the IAF 29 upgrade programme. The details that are there are quite sketchy. Considering what I have been reading about the export versions of the Mig 29 they surely do need an upgrade now. By the way why are only 40 Mig 27 being upgraded instead of the entire fleet.<P>

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Re: Information on the Admiral Gorshkov refit

Postby Avinash » 20 Feb 2001 18:33

Does anyone know about the progress of the Sea Harrier upgrade and what new systems it will be carrying apart from the ELTA-2032 radar.?<BR>Sachin, I dont think the IAF plans on keeping the MiG-27 for a very long time like the Jaguars.<P>------------------<BR>Y.Avinash

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Re: Information on the Admiral Gorshkov refit

Postby ks_sachin » 21 Feb 2001 01:50

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Avinash:<BR><B>Does anyone know about the progress of the Sea Harrier upgrade and what new systems it will be carrying apart from the ELTA-2032 radar.?<BR>Sachin, I dont think the IAF plans on keeping the MiG-27 for a very long time like the Jaguars.<P></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>why?<BR>The Migs are newer than the jags are they not.I heard that a major component of the upgrade is a life extension work. I presume some of the older Migs need that while the newer air frames will just get the additional avionics etc.<BR>

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Re: Information on the Admiral Gorshkov refit

Postby rama » 21 Feb 2001 06:38

A very interesting write-up on the Mig29 SMT upgrade, the enclosed para removes any doubt on which Mig-29 IN would be getting. (Considering that the "original" Mig-29K was but a prototype, IN would be daft to get anything but the 9-17K)<BR> <A HREF="http://www.aeronautics.ru/ruaf7.htm" TARGET=_blank>http://www.aeronautics.ru/ruaf7.htm</A> <P>"Another prepared design is the 9-17K (or MiG-29SMTK, where K stands for korabelnyi, meaning shipborne). For this purpose testing of the MiG-29K shipborne aircraft were resumed in 1996. The 9-17K aircraft will have folding wings, reinforced landing gear, an arrestor hook and expanded navigational equipment. This variant is being prepared for the possibility of India purchasing the Admiral Gorshkov aircraft carrier, transformed for ski-jump take-offs (formerly the ship operated only Yak-38 VTOL aircraft). The 9-17K variant will also be offered to `shore' users who could operate it from shorter or damaged airstrips. "<BR>

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Re: Information on the Admiral Gorshkov refit

Postby venkat_r » 22 Feb 2001 06:24

Any idea on what misiles are going to be put on Ghorskov? are they going to be any actually?<P>In general what is going to be the defence mechanism of a indian ADS? what other flotila will it have around it to protect it? Is there a particular strategy that India follows regarding this defence of ADS?

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Re: Information on the Admiral Gorshkov refit

Postby Saurabh » 22 Feb 2001 10:36

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by venkat_r:<BR><B>In general what is going to be the defence mechanism of a indian ADS? what other flotila will it have around it to protect it? Is there a particular strategy that India follows regarding this defence of ADS? </B> <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>IMHO,<BR>The Indian ADS will incorporate 4-5 modules of Kashtan CIWS [~40 SAMs + ~10 Gattling Guns] and they should provide excellent CIWS defence.<BR>Area Defence should be provided by Kamov-31 Helos, MIG-29Ks and Delhi/Bangalore Class DDGs by SA-N-7/17 SAMs and/or maybe in future Akash SAMs.<BR>ASW escort will be given by Talwar Class and/or Godavari/Bhramaputra Class Frigates and by the ALH/Kamov Helicopters being operated off all these ships.<P>IN needs at least 2-ADS group for operations in Arabian Sea and Bay of Bengal. If they want to extend patrols beyond Mallaca then 3/4-ADS group is needed.<P>------------------<BR>Adios<BR>Saurabh<p>[This message has been edited by Saurabh (edited 22-02-2001).]

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Re: Information on the Admiral Gorshkov refit

Postby davidn » 22 Feb 2001 14:17

on the missile question<BR>is there any truth to the speculation that the gorshkov will have the yakhont missiles on board?

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Re: Information on the Admiral Gorshkov refit

Postby Nandai » 23 Feb 2001 00:03

Probably not, as the ship will need as much space as possible for the aircraft´.<P>------------------<BR>Nandai<P>Since time began,<BR>the dead alone know peace.<BR>Life is like melting snow.

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Re: Information on the Admiral Gorshkov refit

Postby venkat_r » 26 Feb 2001 11:52

I believe to have read in a book that Ghorskov should be able to carry about 36 mig29k's. It is some new news that the number is recalculated to 25 because of choppers it is going to carry, or is this the result of the refit?

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Re: Information on the Admiral Gorshkov refit

Postby Saurabh » 26 Feb 2001 14:25

Venkat,<BR>I hope you are not confusing Gorshkov with Kuznetsov.<BR>36 MIG-29Ks seems more like the Kuznetsov.<P>------------------<BR>Adios<BR>Saurabh

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Re: Information on the Admiral Gorshkov refit

Postby Avinash » 27 Feb 2001 17:10

I have read somewhere that Admiral Groshkov can carry around 36 planes but without any helicopters.<P>------------------<BR>Y.Avinash

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Re: Information on the Admiral Gorshkov refit

Postby Avinash » 27 Feb 2001 18:02

The link below has some info about the Groshkov deal. It is likely to be signed in this fiscal year itself. So will all the other defence deals in the waiting. <A HREF="http://www.rediff.com/news/2001/feb/27lca.htm" TARGET=_blank>http://www.rediff.com/news/2001/feb/27lca.htm</A> <P>------------------<BR>Y.Avinash<p>[This message has been edited by Avinash (edited 27-02-2001).]

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Re: Information on the Admiral Gorshkov refit

Postby Avinash » 01 Mar 2001 17:56

With the Groshkov deal likely to be finilised soon and we are likely to buy around 40-50 MiG-29k's. I wonder how many MiG-29k's we will really buy.<BR>According to reports, we are asking for the license production of MiG-29k's. If that is so, it would not be economically viable for us to produce the aircraft unless it is around 100. However, since MiG-MAPO is close to bankruptcy, it will want to produce atleast 20 aircraft.<BR><P>------------------<BR>Y.Avinash

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Re: Information on the Admiral Gorshkov refit

Postby Saurabh » 02 Mar 2001 23:25

Once MIG-21-93 starts flying in good numbers in IAF, MIG-MAPO is going to get lot's of orders for upgradation from countries like Iran, Vietnam, Libya etc...<BR>They are counting on it.<P>------------------<BR>Adios<BR>Saurabh

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Re: Information on the Admiral Gorshkov refit

Postby Harry » 03 Mar 2001 01:25

The Mig29K is more similar to the Mi-29M than the SMT so should be a bit inferior in avionics though it will have superior weapons capability thanks to 8 rather than the 6 underwing hardpoints on the SMT.The Mig29K has an analogue FBW system and B&W rather than colour displays of the SMT.

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Re: Information on the Admiral Gorshkov refit

Postby rama » 03 Mar 2001 05:09

The "korabelnyi" version of the Mig-29 was a *prototype* which reflected the Fulcrum as developed at that point of time. Combat aircraft are highly customized pieces of equipment, not standard models like automobiles. So any new Fulcrum customer - least of all IN - would be daft to not to ask for most or all of the SMT upgrade, if not more. <P>The dorsal fuel tank addition is a must have, the Fulcrum's original limitation was range. Who would not want a Mil-1553 based avionics suite in this day & age. Why would we not want attack modes (especially for a naval aircraft). IOW very safe bet that we will be getting the SMTK and not the outfit of the original Mig-29K.<P>Motivations behind insisting on a licensed manufacture deal , regardless of IN's final order size, would include:<BR>- Assured supply of spares. Given that Mig-MAPO is dying, has to be on our minds.<BR>- Outside chance that IAF may be thinking of adding a couple of squaadrons of Mig29SMT. Cheaper than Mirage2K & easier to staff up than a Su-30MKI, and in certain sectors & roles good enough to do the job.<BR>

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Re: Information on the Admiral Gorshkov refit

Postby Avinash » 03 Mar 2001 19:33

Does anyone know which naval base is to be refurnished for the Groshkov? Where will it be stationed?<P>------------------<BR>Y.Avinash

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Re: Information on the Admiral Gorshkov refit

Postby Harry » 04 Mar 2001 02:21

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Guru Dronacharya:<BR><B>for aircraft carrier - ideal place is Karwar if its ready by that time, else Cochin or Goa.<P>indian navy is over-centralized at mumbai. suppose 30 mirages with 60 exocets launch a surprise attack. 75% of IN will go down in flames in 15 mins.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Guruji,how can you say that?As if most won't be decoyed off or destroyed by CIWS or SAMs.Plus TSPN has only ~10 Mirages for Anti ship strike and hardly 60 exocets(and it's not a good missile too).Plus what makes you think the mirages will happily get through defences and launch 60 exocets?<P>

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Re: Information on the Admiral Gorshkov refit

Postby Aditya Vikram » 04 Mar 2001 20:16

Guru Dronacharya >> I think what your scenario is that the Mumbai harbour is in the inner side of the mumbai island , so the only place the pakis can launch there missiles are without hitting the Buildings is to move south ,doubleback flying along the coastline northwards towards mumbai, by the do the mirages have the range to hit mumbai and go back with a payload of exocet missiles<BR>

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Re: Information on the Admiral Gorshkov refit

Postby Philip » 04 Mar 2001 21:48

Hopefully,the MIG-29K in IN service will have all the capabilities of the larger SU-33 in a smaller airframe,allowing for a larger number of aircraft to be carried aboard the carrier.As far as the agility of the aircraft goes,all those at the Air Show where witness to an awesome display of the aircraft's aerobatics,superior to everything except the S-30MKI,and even that too by a whisker.It will be the BVR missiles and stand-off long range anti-shiping missiles that will make the aircraft a very deadly platform with which to sanitise the IOR.I am not sure whether the naval version of the LCA is designed to carry all the newer Russian weaponry that the MIG-29K will carry.<P>Given the numbers of aircraft to be acquired,it would appear that a three carrier fleet is the very least that the IN is planning for from 2010 onwards.I would even suggest that we ask the Russians to give us an offer for another "sister" carrier of the Gorshkov,to start when the Gorshkov is delivered.Having two similar vessels makes both economic and technical sense.In any case,steel costs are a fraction compared to that of equipment,and a larger carrier would have greater range,survivability,capability etc.I'm sure that a very good deal could be achieved for two "Gorshkov" class ships.<P>The ADS class of light carriers could have some amphibious capability,as HMS Ocean has,so that with one class,both amphib needs and air defence/strike needs could be combined with one ship.In fact,the Hermes/Viraat did combine both needs for the RN during the Falklands War.With the RN and others planning to build more capable larger carriers in the 45/50,000t+ region,the IN must examine all the options open.

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Re: Information on the Admiral Gorshkov refit

Postby Nandai » 05 Mar 2001 01:12

The Mig-29Ks should have have the same capabilities as their bigger brothers the Su-33, except maybe for carrying the biggest russian ASMs.<P>------------------<BR>Nandai<P>Since time began,<BR>the dead alone know peace.<BR>Life is like melting snow.

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Re: Information on the Admiral Gorshkov refit

Postby bagha » 05 Mar 2001 03:39

what do we know about the combat range of the 29k? How important is it for a carrier based plane to have a good range(comparable to a Su33)? <BR>finally if the LCA naval version lives up to expectations and promises then would it be a better alternative to the 29k?

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Re: Information on the Admiral Gorshkov refit

Postby Saurabh » 05 Mar 2001 19:14

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by bagha:<BR><B>finally if the LCA naval version lives up to expectations and promises then would it be a better alternative to the 29k?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>As and when Naval-LCA is inducted, I expect it to support the MIG-29K rather than replace it.<BR>Their combination would be more on lines of Tomcat-Hornet type with LCA doing the fleet defence role and the Fulcrum being the fighter-bomber.<BR>A carrier as large as Gorshkov should be suffecient to carry 12-15 MIG-29K + 12-15 LCA [given it's smaller size] + 4-6 Ka-31 Helos.<P>Philip,<BR>How effective/uselful would it be if we were to pay for the completion of the Varyag or order for another modified Kiev Class? <P>------------------<BR>Adios<BR>Saurabh<p>[This message has been edited by Saurabh (edited 05-03-2001).]

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Re: Information on the Admiral Gorshkov refit

Postby Avinash » 05 Mar 2001 19:32

Saurabh, the Varyaj is already sold to China for scrap or a casino/museum. Anyway, it has been negleted too long in the open to be of any use. All the other Kiev class carriers have also been scrapped or converted into museums.<P>------------------<BR>Y.Avinash

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Re: Information on the Admiral Gorshkov refit

Postby Saurabh » 06 Mar 2001 22:00

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Avinash:<BR><B>Anyway, it has been negleted too long in the open to be of any use. All the other Kiev class carriers have also been scrapped or converted into museums.<BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I meant ordering a whole new Kiev Class carrier but this time with modifications [as being done for Gorshkov] built during construction.<BR>Even if negotiations start now, we should have a 3-carrier navy by the time Viraat retires.<P><P>------------------<BR>Adios<BR>Saurabh

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Re: Information on the Admiral Gorshkov refit

Postby bagha » 07 Mar 2001 05:42

maybe im just madly in love with the Su-27 family, but couldnt we have aircraft carriers that carry lets say 15 Su-33 instead of 25 MiG29s? <BR>Or is it that 15 Su33s would lack the punch of 25 MiG29s?<BR>How many fighters can a carrier put up at a time(Gorshkov class)?<BR>How would a Su-33 upgraded to Su30MKI standards compare with the 29K and the naval LCA?<BR>In case it is better then wouldnt it make sense to base our carrier fleet on the Su33 instead of the 29K? Or is it that the Su is not so much better an aircraft to warrant such a change?<BR>From<BR>one mad Su lover.........

davidn
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Re: Information on the Admiral Gorshkov refit

Postby davidn » 07 Mar 2001 12:10

i too think that if we could get a carrier capable of carry a naval variant of the su-30mki that that would much outclass the mig29k as a strike and interceptor a/c<P>but still the mig29k is apparently a fairly formidable aircraft and if the missile hardpoints are being upped from 6 to 8 as some ppl report and the avionics systems are those of the SMT then we would have quite a good a/c on our ships


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