ATV and K15 missile - News & Discussion

NRao
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Postby NRao » 12 Mar 2008 03:10

From the TSS artcile:

[quote]
“From the results of their performance, I can say we really have the [b]capabilityâ€

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Postby Arun_S » 12 Mar 2008 04:14

sunilUpa wrote:Thanks Biju, I had to run to airport to pick up Head SHQ (Mother-in-law), so couldn't post it earlier.

Interesting to read about different versions of K-15. Essentially one is 6.5 M long and 700 km range, other is 10 M long. Versatile too, capable of launch from Sub/Ship and Land (I guess now the picture of 'Garika Annexe' makes sense-canisterized.. :)

Ship borne ballistic missile, now if we convert it to ABM role....

I had earlier mistyped the mass of rocket stage in ROCKSIM missing out 1 tonne mass for motor. Also pls note it is really a 1.5 stage missile (the booster that take it to 5Km altitude is after all a stage and that improves ballistic performance a lot. Apart from staging efficiency, that allow the main motor to be crafted for higher efficiency nozzle since it only operates above 5 km altitude ). So assuming 7 tonne missile mass, the bull-pup can easily deliver 1000Kg to 1000 Km, and for 700Kg payload to 1,400km range.

Just a reminder that various Indian strategic weapons weigh from 100 - 250kg.

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Postby p_saggu » 12 Mar 2008 08:18

DDM reporting...
Image

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Postby Austin » 12 Mar 2008 09:13

[quote="NRao"]From the TSS artcile:

[quote]
“From the results of their performance, I can say we really have the [b]capabilityâ€

ramana
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Postby ramana » 12 Mar 2008 10:07

No Austin go back to the PAD test. it has exo atmosphere capability and was stated to be about 140km. AAD is lower as its endo atmosphere. I think Dr K knows what is the true capability of the PAD kill vehicle. The important thing is any object at 200km . Those are IRBM RVs and orbital debris. Long ago he made some comments about using the A TD to launch a satellite. His IGMP plan had laid out all these and was trimmed to match budget.

---------
BTW the DDM cartoonist is wrong. There is one more person missing. The song is six blind men of Hindoostan. Looks like the guy is unpad DDM. Really the pits. but he draws well!

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Postby Austin » 12 Mar 2008 10:15

ramana wrote:No Austin go back to the PAD test. it has exo atmosphere capability and was stated to be about 140km. AAD is lower as its endo atmosphere. I think Dr K knows what is the true capability of the PAD kill vehicle. The important thing is any object at 200km . Those are IRBM RVs and orbital debris. Long ago he made some comments about using the A TD to launch a satellite. His IGMP plan had laid out all these and was trimmed to match budget.

---------


Ramana , If memory serves me right the capability of PAD was stated as between 50 - 80 km and AAD at 15 - 30 km i.e effective altitude of interception or the Kill Box

But the effective altitude of interception is more of a limitation of the GreenPine/Swordfish radar , one can ofcourse intercept at a high altitude could be 200 Km as well with the current GP/SF system , but that will be at the cost of reduced probability of intercept.

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Postby p_saggu » 12 Mar 2008 10:40

BTW the DDM cartoonist is wrong. There is one more person missing. The song is six blind men of Hindoostan. Looks like the guy is unpad DDM. Really the pits. but he draws well!

Aw, its just some random cartoon I picked up on the net.

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Postby Raj Malhotra » 12 Mar 2008 11:30

I think that 80km celing is given because till that altitude, the explosive warhead can be used without sending warhead fragments in orbit. After that altitude, say 200km, any explosive warhead would send fragments, in long term orbits.

This is my guess, will somebody comment??

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Postby Singha » 12 Mar 2008 12:22

150km features some milsats too. I read of APAR de zeven pronvincien ships easily tracking satellites at that altitude.

so we could go after low hanging fruit as it were with PAD , though a bigger
AD01 would be better ....

I esp want those milsats and imint hanging in the 550km MEO orbit to be
within our kill envelope. lot of valuable and key hardware in that range.

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Postby Nayak » 12 Mar 2008 14:34

Apologies if already posted -

Strike power

[quote]
T.S. SUBRAMANIAN

The successful launch of Sagarika, or K-15, demonstrates India’s submarine-to-surface missile capabilities.

IN missile technology, the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) has arrived. In the past few months, it has had a phenomenal run of success with its various missiles, and it proved on February 26 that it had acquired the capability to launch ballistic missiles from under the sea. On that day, a ballistic missile named Sagarika, or K-15, blasted off flawlessly from a pontoon submerged to a depth of 50 metres in the Bay of Bengal off the coast of Visakhapatnam, Andhra Pradesh. It knifed upwards as the water around it sizzled, rose into the sky, traced a parabola, and reached its full range, a point more than 700 kilometres away. The pontoon simulated the conditions of a submarine.

India thus joins the select club of countries, which includes Russia, the United States, France, China and the United Kingdom, with submarine launch capabilities. What affirmed India’s entry into this league was that this was the fifth launch of the Sagarika missile from a submerged pontoon and, according to DRDO missile technologists, all the five were “consistently successfulâ€

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Postby Sanjay » 12 Mar 2008 14:57

Ramana, do you have any link/ story confirming that PAD intercept capability of 140km altitude ?

I think at most I've seen a projected max intercept altitude of 80km.

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Postby Prabu » 12 Mar 2008 18:22

Shankar wrote:Would like to ask our PM one simple question

sir if (i hope not) the nuke deal is signed what will be the price we will have to pay in money terms for each 1000 MW LWR and what is the amount we paid to Russians for the two 1000 MW reactors now under installation

any of you guys who still support the deal care to answer the question

Just compare the price of the 6 C-130 J s againt IL-76 /An 32s of equivalent payload capability and you will get the answer


Brilliant Question! No pro dealer will and want to answetr this ! Better you put this question in Nuclear discussion forum !

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Postby sunilUpa » 12 Mar 2008 18:45

Prabu wrote:
Shankar wrote:Would like to ask our PM one simple question

sir if (i hope not) the nuke deal is signed what will be the price we will have to pay in money terms for each 1000 MW LWR and what is the amount we paid to Russians for the two 1000 MW reactors now under installation

any of you guys who still support the deal care to answer the question

Just compare the price of the 6 C-130 J s againt IL-76 /An 32s of equivalent payload capability and you will get the answer


Brilliant Question! No pro dealer will and want to answetr this ! Better you put this question in Nuclear discussion forum !


Please do not derail this thread.

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Postby pradeepe » 12 Mar 2008 22:40

Raj Malhotra wrote:Posting free extract of aforesaid link as don't know if info will be permanently available

Appearing in
Jane's Underwater Warfare Systems

Publication date
Mar 01, 2005

Type
Nuclear powered attack submarine.

Description
Speed will be in the region of 30 to 34 kt submerged. Maximum diving depth will be 300 m.


30-34 kts published speed looks very respectable.
Weren't the earlier reports talking about much lower speeds (17-20 knots ?) which was of concern.

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Postby Gerard » 13 Mar 2008 06:09

That Janes article is "worth all of a jug of warm spit" (to quote LBJ).
Rahul Bedi probably made up the entire thing during his morning ablutions.

I can provide detailed measurements of Mallika Sherawat's boobs. Does this make me credible?

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Postby sunilUpa » 13 Mar 2008 06:19

Gerard wrote:I can provide detailed measurements of Mallika Sherawat's boobs. Does this make me credible?


Still that bit of statistic will be interesting to say the least..

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Postby Raj Malhotra » 13 Mar 2008 09:34

Also is it indigenous or foreign assistance-read silicon implants are there. What is the displacement?

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Postby mdhoat » 13 Mar 2008 11:19

sunilUpa wrote:
Gerard wrote:I can provide detailed measurements of Mallika Sherawat's boobs. Does this make me credible?


Still that bit of statistic will be interesting to say the least..


:lol: :twisted: and hope mallika is reading this and getting very :evil:. And Raj if you talk about foreign assistance, what happens to the 30% offset policy.

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Postby Dilbu » 13 Mar 2008 13:25

mdhoat wrote:
sunilUpa wrote:
Gerard wrote:I can provide detailed measurements of Mallika Sherawat's boobs. Does this make me credible?


Still that bit of statistic will be interesting to say the least..


:lol: :twisted: and hope mallika is reading this and getting very :evil:. And Raj if you talk about foreign assistance, what happens to the 30% offset policy.

I hope the foreign TOT does not come with manual inspections every now and then like the other Unkilian stuffs. :D

Raju

Postby Raju » 21 Mar 2008 08:46

[quote]Larsen & Toubro flexes its engineering might

Ajai Shukla / New Delhi March 21, 2008



On January 26, 2007, when the sleek, indigenously developed Nag Missile Carrier (NAMICA) rolled down Rajpath in the Republic Day parade, Larsen & Toubro (L&T) executives and workers watched with satisfaction.

The NAMICA, based on a BMP-1 armoured vehicle, had been integrated by India’s biggest private sector engineering company, a project that had begun years before defence manufacturing was thrown open to the private sector in 2001.

That opening, boast L&T executives, off the record, was for lesser companies. L&T, they point out, has been manufacturing for India’s strategic sector since the late 1960s in nuclear power generation as well as the space programme.

The Mumbai-based engineering giant is one of just nine companies worldwide that is cleared to export nuclear power generation equipment to the US and to Europe.

Those decades of association with the strategic sector are now being leveraged, as L&T jockeys for a share of the Rs 2,00,000 crore of business that India’s Ministry of Defence (MoD) is likely to generate over the next five years.

Unlike other private entrants into defence production, say senior L&T executives, its business strategy is not based on project-specific tie-ups of convenience with foreign defence majors.

Instead, L&T sees itself as having covered the learning curve over decades, and now has its own experience and expertise on offer.

MV Kotwal, vice president of L&T’s Heavy Engineering Division, gives an example from shipbuilding, when L&T was asked to mount the Dhanush missile (the naval version of the Prithvi) on a warship.

Kotwal explains how the company grappled with, and overcame, a range of problems, “It was engineering in the most difficult circumstances. A ship rolls heavily, so we developed new technologies in stabilised platforms. We gained experience in mechanical, hydraulic, electrical, electronic, pneumatics… all kinds of technologies. We started integrating those into one, so we became a one-stop integrator. That is the key differentiator for us; we always said we must be a total solution provider, not just one part of a system.â€

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Postby Singha » 22 Mar 2008 20:56

NYT

His mood on Friday was somber, as he inaugurated a new generation of nuclear submarine of the “Triomphantâ€

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Postby arun » 03 Apr 2008 21:22

April edition of Arms Control Today on the March 5th, K-15 test.

See last line quote from Bharat Karnad.

Anyone know anything about the “kinksâ€

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Postby Arun_S » 03 Apr 2008 21:29

Kinks are necessary for more testing to qualify the astra.

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Postby Gerard » 04 Apr 2008 00:08

[quote]Basrur disagrees, contending that submarine-delivered nuclear weapons invite instability by increasing “risk precisely because they are hard to detect…thereby reducing reaction time and encouraging early warning and launch.â€

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Postby NRao » 04 Apr 2008 01:46

Gerard wrote:Funny... when the British moved to an all sea based deterrent, and the French to a mainly sea based one, we didn't read about this business of inviting instability... Indian SSBN creates great takleef...
..


It has been a while since I followed him. However, the Basrur quote MAY have been taken out of context. Basrur has argued that Indian NFU, MD, etc is too confusing (my word), and that it needs clarity to be effective.

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Postby SaiK » 04 Apr 2008 06:42

check if he is still alive in pakistan?

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Postby Philip » 05 Apr 2008 13:12

More on that article from "Arms Control."
http://www.armscontrol.org/act/2008_04/IndiaTest.asp

India Test-Launches Submarine Missile
Wade Boese

India took a recent step toward its longtime goal of deploying nuclear weapons at sea by test-firing a missile from beneath the ocean’s surface. The submarine that this missile type is supposed to arm is scheduled to be put to sea for the first time next year.

Official details about the Feb. 26 missile test are scant, and the Indian government did not respond to Arms Control Today inquiries requesting information. India’s media, however, reported on the event at length, albeit with some conflicting data.

In addition, the Pakistani government confirmed March 5 that it had been “duly informedâ€

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Postby jmaxwell » 08 Apr 2008 04:13

Arun_S wrote:Kinks are necessary for more testing to qualify the astra.


and by "qualify" i guess you mean "to progressively improve"
:twisted:

Raju

Postby Raju » 11 Apr 2008 11:48

Coming: India-make N-sub
Friday April 11 2008 09:11 IST
Hemanth Kumar

BALASORE: INDIA is now working on its first-ever nuclear powered submarine dubbed as advanced technology vessel (ATV) to test the submarine launched ballistic missiles (SLBMs) under sea.

A top naval official on condition of anonymity disclosed that the first of the three 6,000-tonne ATVs will be ‘ready to go to sea’ for trials by early 2009.

“If the trials go well, it could be inducted into service within two years,â€

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Postby ranganathan » 11 Apr 2008 12:46

What is the need to announce how many ATV's are being built or when they will be ready. Sometimes I wish Indian defence personnel would be act with more prudence. Announce the ATV's are ready once atleast 2-3 are in the water.

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Postby Sanku » 11 Apr 2008 14:19

ranganathan wrote:What is the need to announce how many ATV's are being built or when they will be ready. Sometimes I wish Indian defence personnel would be act with more prudence. Announce the ATV's are ready once atleast 2-3 are in the water.


Oh but if they dont; what will we do on BRF then..
:wink:

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Postby NRao » 11 Apr 2008 16:54

ranganathan wrote:What is the need to announce how many ATV's are being built or when they will be ready. Sometimes I wish Indian defence personnel would be act with more prudence. Announce the ATV's are ready once atleast 2-3 are in the water.


In this case the cat was out of the bag, so it makes no diff.

Many a times it is psyops (on both sides). Furthermore, it is not the defence that is not prudent, more often than not it is the Indian politician that is not prudent - specially in their chai-biscut mode.

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Postby ranganathan » 11 Apr 2008 16:57

My point was regarding time (2009) and the numbers (3). They should have just said soon and multiple ATV's. There is nothing like paranoia to drive the enemies nuts :twisted: .

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Postby Avid » 11 Apr 2008 17:56

ranganathan wrote:My point was regarding time (2009) and the numbers (3). They should have just said soon and multiple ATV's. There is nothing like paranoia to drive the enemies nuts :twisted: .


Paranoia is a double-edged sword! It can drive the enemy nuts and can lead to a jostling that can escalate requiring IN to have 12 ATV instead. In all games characterized by an information asymmetric environment, it is well known that optimal is neither zero information revelation nor full information revelation - but sufficient information revelation at all stages of the game.

Arming the country is not the end goal. It is a blunter tool of diplomacy with the objective of providing rigid constraints and parameters to the enemy. Think of it as the insurance for protection of economy, territory and people. The expense ~ defense budget is the insurance premium that is necessary and should be carried.

Much like you would not want to overpay the insurance company, you should also be concerned about your coverage when your premium is too low (alas, which is currently the case of indian defense budget). well... that is a different discussion.

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Postby ramana » 11 Apr 2008 20:42

Sometime in late 80s the IN and the industry came to an agreement that qtys of three ships are minimum EOQ (economic order qty) for Indian conditions. Six would be gravy. So always expect multipes of three unless the economic situation changes.

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Postby Raja Ram » 12 Apr 2008 11:21

The print edition of today's The New Indian Express has a front page story that states that the N-sub hub will be based from Rambilli in AP and the base will be operational from 2011.

The report quotes "top naval sources". Filed by reporter Manoj Das from Kochi.

Other details mentioned in the article

(i) Eventually all naval subs will be based here both nuclear and conventional
(ii) Advanced sea trials of ATV will be controlled from this base, deep channel will allow subs to remain submerged while entering and leaving the channel
(iii) Once completed, all operations in eastern theatre will be controlled from here
(iv) Rambilli to much bigger than kharwar
(v) With this two legs of the triad will be based in South India, Aerospace base of Airforce in Thiruananthapuram and the naval base in Rambilli
(vi) DRDO has identified may sick state owned PSUs that it can enter into JV for fabrication and assembly of advanced weapons.

This can only mean one thing, things are progressing at top pace for induction of ATVs by that time frame.

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Postby MN Kumar » 12 Apr 2008 21:14

The enws about a new base at Rambilli is old. Posted a link on it sometime back. Navy desperately wants this as its existing base at Vizag is not going to be sufficient in future.

Not sure abt it being bigger than Karwar though. Karwar is to become the biggest Naval base in Asia.

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Postby gopal.suri » 12 Apr 2008 21:31

[url=http://www.newindpress.com/NewsItems.asp?ID=IEX20080411160937&Title=Kochi&rLink=0]Where N-subs come to roost
Saturday April 12 2008 02:31 IST[/url]

KOCHI: Adding to the strategic import of South India, the Indian Navy is setting up its strategic nuclear base at Rambilli near Vishakaptanam in Andhra Pradesh.

Work on this highly classified project :lol: is expected to be over by 2011. All submarines, conventional and nuclear, of the Indian Navy will be moved to this base once it’s completed.

Top sources told Express that Advanced Tactical Vessels, the Indian nuclear submarines expected to dive by 2010, will be the first residents of the base, where they will be moved from the nearby Shipbuilding Centre. The advanced sea trials of the ATVs will be controlled from the new base after the induction of the crew, who are currently undergoing simulator training, is done.

The salient feature of this base will be its channel with enough depth to allow a submarine to remain submerged while approaching or leaving the base. This will thicken the cloak of secrecy covering underwater operations, crucial to inflicting a second strike in case of a nuclear war outbreak.

Once complete, Rambilli will control all operations in the eastern theatre which is getting interesting with the fast modernisation of the Chinese Navy. China already operates 10 nuclear submarines, each carrying 12 missiles. The base is also crucial given the increasing Indian involvement in the east, especially its growing ties with Singapore.

More than the firepower it gives the Navy, Rambilli completes the South Indian role in India’s future plans vis-à-vis deployment of nuclear assets. It also marks the first major futuristic naval initiative on the east coast with the Ezhimala Naval Academy and the Seabird base at Karwar, diagonally south of Rambilli, taking care of the west coast.

"But Rambilli will be bigger, much bigger, than Karwar. The latter will be home to mainline battleships berthed safely beneath several tiers of security including an e-fence as the first line of defence. Rambilli will house all nuclear-powered submarines," sources said.

With this South India will be home to two arms of the N-triad. The Air Force is already accelerating work on its base in Thiruvananthapuram in Kerala, to be the first India Air and Space Base co-ordinating the second strike possibility. This apart, DRDO has already identified many sick State-owned PSUs in South India that it can enter into joint ventures with for fabrication and assembly of advanced weapons.

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Postby soutikghosh » 13 Apr 2008 01:58

Good news, but what are the source.
Any way I still think India should construct some underground naval base just for these precious submarines on the line of Swedish navy.

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Postby Gerard » 13 Apr 2008 02:23

If the ATV will transit the channel submerged, you can bet the pen will be covered.
Take a look in Google Earth at the dockyard where the ATV is being built. Nothing visible to overhead eyes ...


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