ATV and K15 missile - News & Discussion

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 26 Feb 2008 21:02

b) 300m

c) yes

d) apparently so! in any case there is always some drift due to current,
so I guess the INS update to onboard ARIS-MKI is done microsecs before launch.

pradeepe · Post by **pradeepe** » 26 Feb 2008 21:05

Darn good job! Congratulations to those involved.

Naidu · Post by **Naidu** » 26 Feb 2008 21:11

Thanks, Singha.

Since a missile launch does what a sub (especially a strategic one) never wants to do, ie, reveal its position, the whole missile-launch sequence should happen very quickly.

Surface to launch depth; slow down to launch speed (hopefully not to a complete stop); prepare missile; open hatch/flood missile tube; launch one or more missiles; close hatch/empty missile tube; get the hell out of there!

Hopefully, some of the steps can happen simultaneously.

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 26 Feb 2008 22:00

The K-15 missile, with a range of 700km, was test fired at 1258 hours from a pontoon immersed in the sea and eyewitness reports say that they saw the missile rising from the waters into the sky.

"The test firing was successful," defence ministry spokesman Sitanshu Kar said. DRDO's initial response was that it was awaiting final evaluations from warships deployed in the sea.

Brando · Post by **Brando** » 26 Feb 2008 22:00

Its a good thing that the nuclear delivery systems are coming along nicely but I wonder how good the nuclear warheads are to make this a credible deterrent. From other programs like the Trident 2 etc, the warhead design has been the most problematic part of the designs and the Americans had taken a lot of time to come out with the W88 type warhead.
I would imagine that it is the warhead design that would dictate the delivery platform rather than the delivery platform dictating the warhead. So unless the DRDO have the technology to design really small warheads which are still high yield, I would imagine that the present payload weight is essential for it to be a "nuclear" deterrent because as they compromise on payload, they compromise on the nuclear deterrence .

anishns · Post by **anishns** » 26 Feb 2008 22:10

Here's a video compiled by timesofindia. I comprises of only still pictures...don't know if they are from the actual launch.

Any case here u go:

http://broadband.indiatimes.com/videoshow/2816351.cms

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 26 Feb 2008 22:13

Surface to launch depth; slow down to launch speed (hopefully not to a complete stop); prepare missile; open hatch/flood missile tube; launch one or more missiles; close hatch/empty missile tube; get the hell out of there!

bzzt...slightly incorrect. in case of Rus/US SSBNs their unique ELF antenna
on land permits sending a "flash message" (a few bytes of code) to a great depth perhaps 500m? for the rest of pack the VLF permits to a lesser depth...which kinda limits their patrol depth. there is some trailing antenna system which may improve VLF by letting the antenna have a small buoy at a VLF depth but sub itself is deeper.

"flash" is usally a call to climb to periscope depth, raise satcom antenna and get the full encrypted orders which could include a target set as also authorization to fire.

then then go deep again down to 300-400m and prepare the tubes which
apparently take around 15 mins on a typical SSBN...lots of BITE tests one assumes, getting the missiles electrically powered up and INS checked out. targets are programmed.

only when all missiles are ready they rise to firing depth again, flood the
tubes, fire and dive deep & fast again incase anyone was prowling around.

any SSBN can ignite WW3, so command of these is _the_ posting in
submarine arm and not given lightly. very "stable" and "Calm" personalities are needed.

Ankit Desai · Post by **Ankit Desai** » 26 Feb 2008 22:40

I don't know wether we discussed this or didn't but why is it named " K-15 " why doesn't M or A or some Vedic name like other missiles like Agni Prithvi ?! and why digit 15 ?!?!

Thanks for answer in advance

Ankit

bala · Post by **bala** » 26 Feb 2008 22:54

AllahOAkbar! Yindoo Kafir scientists are getting Cunning/Chankian. Not to worry, Pukes will get China SLBM and paint it green very soon and be ahead of Yindoos.

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 26 Feb 2008 22:56

It is the project designation

sohamn · Post by **sohamn** » 26 Feb 2008 23:08

any idea whether K15 is a modified version of prithvi missile? considering the range it seems that either this is a version of prithvi or agni350.
anyways this is just to try the technologies only. I guess, this will be used to modify the agni3 and launch it underwater.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 26 Feb 2008 23:14

Its all up new design. All the previous thread had posts to substantiate this.

I think this is it for the ATV. AIII sea launched is quite a ways off. if you wait for AIIISL then might as well forget the deterrent etc. Bird in the hand and all that.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 26 Feb 2008 23:20

It could be

A seal in hand is worth two in the deep!

seal = k15 .. that could become the deeper strategic ones later once net in the form of "sagarika".

all terminates at "prithvi" that houses the enemy.

.

btw, forgot to congrat DRDO.

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 26 Feb 2008 23:28

bala wrote:AllahOAkbar! Yindoo Kafir scientists are getting Cunning/Chankian. Not to worry, Pukes will get China SLBM and paint it green very soon and be ahead of Yindoos.

Now that will get very troublesome. For Unkil and Israel.

satyarthi · Post by **satyarthi** » 26 Feb 2008 23:36

hnair wrote:
bala wrote:AllahOAkbar! Yindoo Kafir scientists are getting Cunning/Chankian. Not to worry, Pukes will get China SLBM and paint it green very soon and be ahead of Yindoos.
Now that will get very troublesome. For Unkil and Israel.

China is evil but not irrational. Why would it provide Pakistan with an ability which can be used against China itself?

Everything China has given Pakistan has short enough range so that these can't endanger China. Longer range Taepo Dong and its children in Paki inventory are from N Korea and are unreliable as missiles.

For India's SLBM, pakistan has nothing and will have nothing to respond with. All the response, if any, will be from China.

k prasad · Post by **k prasad** » 26 Feb 2008 23:40

All hot babes who lurk at this place (if any), please kiss the next DRDO person you see... at least that way, they'll get some of the rewards that they so deserve.

Great job from DRDO... our SDRE Yindoo vaigyaniks have made us khush once again... all BRFers please donate money for jalebis, laddoos (and dont forget to pay your taxes that will be used to prepare the sweets that we'll send to our Pakistani Bhais and Chinese friends as well).

Arun saar, could you please create an approximate Rocksim model for the Sagarika. TIA.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 26 Feb 2008 23:51

Op-Ed in Pioneer 27 Feb., 2008

Stronger deterrence

The Pioneer Edit Desk

With K-15, India adds nuclear clout

Adding credibility to its policy of nuclear deterrence and strengthening its second-strike capacity, India has successfully tested the indigenously developed K-15, a nuclear-capable ballistic missile that can be launched from submarines. This adds the stealth factor to our strike capability as hitherto with Agni, Prithvi and Akash, it was possible only to fire ballistic missiles from ground and air, and such launch pads are susceptible to detection by the enemy and possible counter-attack. Now having extended to sea the crucial third leg of the nuclear triad, the defence establishment is likely to induct the newly-tested missile (originally named Sagarika) into the Navy under the Western Command as the Arabian Sea is closer than the Bay of Bengal to neighbours considered 'hostile'. Although the K-15 now has a range of 700 km, it can be made to travel a longer distance with enabling technology. The Defence Research and Development Organisation always starts a project as a technology demonstrator but thereon aims for wider applications of its munitions -- a fact evidenced in the case of Agni whose range has been increased stage after stage ever since it was first tested in the late-1980s. Moreover, increasing the range of any projectile is easier than increasing its frequency of firing which comes in handy when a shoot-and-scoot strategy is employed during a war -- a feat the country's defence scientists have promised they will achieve soon. What does warrant urgency is the conclusion of negotiations with Russia that will equip the Navy with Akula-class submarines as soon as possible because the German HDW and Russian Kilo-class submarines that we have cannot launch the K-15. On Tuesday morning, the Submarine-Launched Ballistic Missile had to be test-fired from a makeshift underwater launcher submerged 50 m under the sea surface. But there is no need to lose sleep over this limitation as the missile, capable of delivering a one tonne nuclear warhead to its target, is to be installed on the Advanced Technology Vehicle, the indigenous nuclear submarine that is slated to begin its sea trials next year.

The temporary lack of capable submarines notwithstanding, with Tuesday's test India joins an elite group of five countries that can fire ballistic missiles from beneath the sea. Boosted by its recent successes in the trials of interceptor missiles, the DRDO was confident this time to announce the test beforehand, which it hadn't when the K-15 was secretly tested on five occasions earlier. The scientists, whose endeavour made this test successful, deserve praise as they have overcome the odds posed by technology denial and sanctions to show the world this nation's prowess in science, a calibre that is not contingent on any foreign Government's approval -- be it nuclear science or ballistic technology.

My only quibble is even in the most advanced country an unproven missile is never integrated into a sub and launched. Off course there is TSP as an exception to every rule!

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 27 Feb 2008 00:00

satyarthi wrote: Everything China has given Pakistan has short enough range so that these can't endanger China. Longer range Taepo Dong and its children in Paki inventory are from N Korea and are unreliable as missiles.

It is not about range. It is the mated warhead thingy and SLBM has its own issues about warhead safety.

Even if China sends in those Hanjin containers, PN will look goofy if they have to dock their boomer and wait for the phyjikks packages to arrive from Sargodha, where their pal and its PALS are guarding it. Hence it is a nonviable option with their current agreement with Unkil and his FSB, Aunty Ho. On the other hand, a permanently mated phyjjics package boat riding up the Red Sea with "AoA" on air?. Now that is cutting the shawarma a bit too close to the burner for Unkil and Israel.

O SS-saar! thy past threads on this and the public caning of pakis are forgotten! Where art thou?

satyarthi · Post by **satyarthi** » 27 Feb 2008 00:05

hnair wrote:
satyarthi wrote: Everything China has given Pakistan has short enough range so that these can't endanger China. Longer range Taepo Dong and its children in Paki inventory are from N Korea and are unreliable as missiles.
It is not about range. It is the mated warhead thingy and SLBM has its own issues about warhead safety.

I mentioned the range only for land based missiles. My related point regarding SLBMs was that even a short range SLBM in Pakistani hands carries risks for China, since a SSBN can launch its missile after traveling close to the target. A pakistani controlled boat which can endanger India can as well endanger China.

That is the reason China would be extremely reluctant to give Pakistan any technology for a SSBN or SLBM.

In fact any country would be extremely reluctant to share this technology with others since it can come back to bite them.

Yugandhar · Post by **Yugandhar** » 27 Feb 2008 00:23

â€˜Sagarikaâ€™ missile test-fired successfully
http://www.hindu.com/2008/02/27/stories ... 120100.htm

[quote]â€œIt is through. There was no problem,â€

Rahul Shukla · Post by **Rahul Shukla** » 27 Feb 2008 00:41

Deleted.

cbelwal · Post by **cbelwal** » 27 Feb 2008 01:03

A video of Trident Missile salvo from a UK sub. Gives an idea about the stealth a SSBN gives to the launch.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=95tFGzDp ... re=related

Another video. Watch at 2:35 which shows in slow motion as the missile comes out of the sub silo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-xvYt3wb ... re=related

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 27 Feb 2008 01:08

[quote]â€œIt is through. There was no problem,â€

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 27 Feb 2008 01:08

it definitely doesnt swim.

I think the pontoon is submersible platform which has the launcher tube. Using a gas generator is the most efficient thing to eject the vehicle out. The booster stage ignites upon surfacing and from there on its conventional flight. The booster stage would be called a first stage if it had any flight control mechanism like TVC etc. Since the range is not too much the bird doesnt have to do any energy wasting moves to stay in the short flight area. So no need for TVC on the booster stage. Once the range is increased they will have a proper first stage.

They have proved the launcher tube also in these flights. Whats needed is to integrate the tube to the sub.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 27 Feb 2008 01:10

.from hindu:- [quote]â€œIt is through. There was no problem,â€

bala · Post by **bala** » 27 Feb 2008 01:12

Off course there is TSP as an exception to every rule!

Yes. Indeed. Just wait for news about Empelol Hu's HAN Allah Terror Firing (HATF-15) missile powered by Krachi Sewer Gas Corp. underwater thrust booster under the auspices of Pak Navy Rear Admiral.

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 27 Feb 2008 01:32

Temper Ballistic Ambitions

There is no need to pour money on developing long-range SLBMs

Since this country follows the â€œno first useâ€

Arun_S · Post by **Arun_S** » 27 Feb 2008 01:39

Here i spost of Ramna that got orphaned in old thread as I was splitting the thread. Here i is:

ramana wrote:The one tonne weight is for the notional boosted fiction payload. However we know from Perkovich that there are pure fission payloads ~200 kg. and then there is the POKII designs which are lesser in weight thanthe 1 tonne. So all in all the 700km for a strategic payload is a minimum range. Lighter payloads will go farther as Arun_S has calculated.

Rahul Shukla · Post by **Rahul Shukla** » 27 Feb 2008 01:41

ramana wrote:Using a gas generator is the most efficient thing to eject the vehicle out. The booster stage ignites upon surfacing and from there on its conventional flight.

Ok, so that means the max. depth from which Sagarika can be launched will depend upon the constraints imposed by the gas-generator. Also, here is a summary of some recent reading I did;

...would have to figure out the max. uncorking pressure that can be allowed so that damage to the submarine is avoided... propellant grain burn time must be adjusted which would provide a certain amount of gas-flow rate, necessary to maintain the pressure in the launch tube as missile rises...

Since the density of water is very high as compared to air, the inertia of water displaced cannot be ignored while predicting motion of missile under water vs. surface launch. Also, water changes phase at sufficiently low 'local static pressure' (unlike air) causing cavitation which may result in structural damage to the missile itself.

Cavitation will occur at the location of the lowest pressure coefficient because the local static pressure is less than the vapor pressure of the water. Depending upon the angle of attack, the most likely area for low pressure coefficient, is the junction between the nose/warhead area (especially, if conical) and the cylindrical body. As the missile's velocity decreases between launch and nose-broach, ambient pressure of water decreases faster than the missile's dynamic pressure. So cavitation is most likely to occur just prior to nose-broach, if at that instant, the velocity of the missile is sufficiently high. So the system must enable the missile to exit the water from various depths, at velocities below those which may cause cavitation.

Other problems discussed in this piece of literature relate to Underwater Stability and Underwater Deceleration, Nose Broach, Exit Velocity vs. launch depth, Broach velocity, Max./Min. allowable pitch rate given atmospheric conditions (wind), Skin+Fin+Base drag coefficients, launch depth vs. drag coefficients calculations given submarine speed (knots), effects of x-flow on pitch stability and horizontal displacement with fins/without fins...

Reading continues...

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 27 Feb 2008 01:45

Yes UWL is quite a complex science. It brings together many engineering disciplines. But nothing beats doing it!

So what is the name of this tome you are reading?

A Sharma · Post by **A Sharma** » 27 Feb 2008 01:48

India test fires submarine-launched ballistic missile

NEW DELHI: India on Tuesday tested its K-15 submarine-launched ballistic missile (SLBM) from a submersible pontoon launcher off Visakhapatnam, amid some indications that the test was "not fully successful".

Sources said the missile, which has a strike range of 700km, did not meet all the pre-flight parameters laid down for the test conducted from the launcher submerged under the sea just before 1pm. On being contacted, DRDO officials refused to say anything, holding that only M Natarajan, the scientific advisor to the defence minister, could clear the position over the test-firing of K-15.

"A test like this, even though from a pontoon launcher and not an actual submarine, generates an immense amount of data... The exact position can be given only after a detailed analysis," said an official. It has taken around 10 years for India to even come to this stage of testing an SLBM, which has remained the preserve of the Big Five countries - US, Russia, China, France and UK.

DRDO chief controller Prahlada had told TOI earlier this month that this test would be the final test of K-15, which would then be ready to be integrated with the "mother ship". The "mother ship", of course, is a reference to the three indigenous nuclear-powered submarines being built at Visakhapatnam in the 25-year-old ATV (advanced technology vessel) project, which will overall cost around Rs 20,000 crore. The first of the three 6,000-tonne ATVs, each designed to carry 12 vertical-launched nuclear-tipped SLBMs, will be 'ready to go to sea' for trials by early 2009.

It will, however, take two to three years for the two-stage solid-fuelled K-15 to be integrated with the first ATV and then be test-fired from it.

When this happens, India will finally achieve its long-standing aim to have an operational 'nuclear weapon triad'. India already has Agni-I (700-km range) and Agni-II (2000-km-plus) ballistic missiles, as also the Agni-III (3,500-km) which has been successfully tested only once so far, as the land-based nuclear deterrent. Fighters like Sukhoi-30MKI and Mirage-2000s, which can be jury-rigged to carry nuclear weapons, constitute the air-based leg. But the absence of nuclear-powered submarines, armed with the capability of fire nuclear-tipped missiles from under the sea, has been a gaping hole in India's strategic capabilities.

The first test of Agni-III missile in July 2006, incidentally, had flopped miserably. Though the second test in April 2007 was successful, it will take at least three to four tests more for this China-specific missile to be fully-ready.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 27 Feb 2008 01:52

From:

Gerard wrote:Temper Ballistic Ambitions

This:

During the cold war, the US-led NATO powers and the Soviet Union sought to place their nuclear-armed subs across all the oceans and the seas as they were engaged in a global ideological and military confrontation. The fight could literally start anywhere, and submarines with nuclear weapons were needed, under the military logic and war doctrines of the day, to be deployed to counter-attack from any location in the world. India does not need to go there at all.

Given that China has very similar ambitions and has already implemented them in the IOR, I would think that the one nation that needs a sub based component is India. What India does not need - at this point in time - is subs that ride in the Atlantic, or something like that. But a 3000+ Km missile does not hurt. IF at all it will help.

IF it is a financial argument, then tap the underground economy of India.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 27 Feb 2008 01:53

Pioneer story, 27 Feb. 2008

India in elite group of five

Pioneer News Service | New Delhi

Successfully tests undersea nuclear capable missile

With the successful test firing of its first-ever undersea nuclear capable ballistic missile in the sea off Visakhapatnam on Tuesday, India joined the elite group of five countries equipped with such sophisticated technology.

The missile, named K-15, will be finally fitted on to the submarines and can strike a target at a range of around 700 km. The breakthrough has enabled India to complete the triad of firing nuclear tipped missiles from air, land and undersea.

The Indian Navy was set to further enhance its capability with the induction of the Russian-made nuclear powered Akula submarine in June. At present, India does not have a nuclear powered submarine and all its other 18 submarines are propelled by diesel.

The Akula submarine would join service at a 20-year lease and help the Indian Navy to gain expertise on operating and maintaining the complex machine. This submarine would also help the naval architects and dockyards to graduate smoothly to the nuclear technology once the indigenously designed and developed nuclear powered submarine known as Advanced Technology Vessel (ATV) rolls out for tests at the end of the year.

A nuclear submarine can remain submerged under water indefinitely unlike the diesel-powered platforms, which have to surface after a specified number of days for replenishment. The nuclear submarines are powered by nuclear reactors and India had one such submarine INS Chakra from 1987 to 1997. This submarine was also acquired on a ten-year lease from Russia and was returned to the original manufacturer after the lease period.

The K-15 missile designed and developed by the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), was test fired from a pontoon submerged in the sea at around 12.58 pm on Tuesday and the scientists later termed the test as successful. The DRDO top brass was now awaiting the evaluation reports from the warships tracking the missile in the sea.

The DRDO had earlier conducted five tests on the missile with sub-systems but this test was the first full-fledged test with fully integrated systems from the pontoon, as India did not have a submarine for conducting such a complicated evaluation, officials said here.

The missile would ultimately be integrated with the ATV.

Chief Controller of DRDO Prahlada had said recently that it would need just one test to ratify the missile which would form the main armament of the country's indigenously made nuclear submarine.

Interesting things.

sunilUpa · Post by **sunilUpa** » 27 Feb 2008 01:55

ToI is doing it's usual DRDO bashing...

Avid · Post by **Avid** » 27 Feb 2008 01:57

Source: http://www.marinebuzz.com/2008/02/26/in ... 5-missile/

The missile is powered by solid propellants and is reported to be having a range of more than 700 km, 6.5 metres long and weighs about seven tonnes</u></b>. The missile can carry a pay load of 600 kg warhead and is designed in both conventional and nuclear versions.

source: http://www.hemscott.com/news/latest-new ... 7668766975

'The test was successful. We are waiting further details,' said the spokesman who declined to be named.

We should expect to find some more information in the coming days (provided the journos keep up their responsibility to find out these "further details" and report them.

source: http://spyingbadthings.blogspot.com/200 ... n-atv.html

The enigmatic two-stage missileâ€” dubbed K-15 under the Defence Research and Development Organisationâ€™s (DRDO) Sagarika (oceanic) projectâ€” is a technological breakthrough. Rapidly ejected from the submarineâ€™s launcher by igniting an underwater gas booster, it rises nearly 5 km above the ocean.

When it reaches a pre-determined height, it ignites a solid booster and travels to a range of nearly 750 km. Tested three times from a specially-designed submersible pontoon, the yetto-be-named â€œnaval missileâ€

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 27 Feb 2008 01:57

The TOI article has many sneering attempts(SLIME) in it. First of all SU-30s and Mirages dont need to be jury rigged. That implies some sort of a make do. Those a/c are used for such roles in their country of orgin. And there is no gaping hole for the kind of threat that India faces from TSP and even PRC.

I can take a guess who the writer is based on the jury rigged remark.

However TOI is first article to talk about a problem with the K 15 test.

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 27 Feb 2008 01:58

US endorses India's K-15 missile test

But on a day it could have thumped its chest, India kept absolutely silent. The reason was the visiting US Defence Secretary Robert Gates, who is presently in New Delhi. But Gates, perhaps, surprised his hosts by strongly endorsing the missile test.

"India's the world's largest democracy. It is in our interest to develop this relationship just as much as it is in India's interest. I don't think there's any risk, particularly from US standpoint," Gates says.

Rahul Shukla · Post by **Rahul Shukla** » 27 Feb 2008 02:05

ramana wrote:So what is the name of this tome you are reading?

A report on adaptation of a 'certain' missile system for undersea operations prepared by Lockheed Martin Vought Systems Corporation, Dallas, TX and submitted to Director Strategic Systems Program, 1931 Jefferson Davis Highway, Arlington, VA 22202-3518 on August 30, 1996.

Avid · Post by **Avid** » 27 Feb 2008 02:06

Searching through whatever I could find for the K-15, clearly there's some discrepancy about the dimensions.

The most important element I found was the speculation about 3 canisters of K-15 per tube, with a total of 12 K-15 per ATV. Alternatively, these 3 being replaced by 1 fin-less Agni-III

If this is true - then much of what we are debating is right behind the curve of what DRDO seems to be designing.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 27 Feb 2008 02:10

Hindu article
[quote]
â€˜Sagarikaâ€™ missile test-fired successfully

T.S. Subramanian

The country joins the select club of Russia, U.S., France and China

CHENNAI: India on Tuesday proved that it has the capability to launch missiles from underwater by test-firing successfully â€œSagarikaâ€